Belle...My apologies to you. My remarks were not meant to offend you or anyone else who fell prey to twi's intrusive doctrines and policies.
I also fell prey to many of twi's intrusive doctrines and policies over a period of some 13 years. I suppose my harsh words were prompted by my total disdain and ire towards twi and what they did to so many people...I never intended to insult the victims of this insideous cult...sorry.
Because I have been out of twi for nearly 20 years now, I often find myself thinking out loud (posting)...about how different my mind works today, being independant of twi's influence.
Although I believe that it's better to be debt free than to be in bondage to debt, I still maintain the position that it is not the business of a religious organization to be privy to a person's personal financial status. Managed debt (home mortages, etc) are certainly appropriate at times...and most all of use credit cards. I just don't think that it the business of the church to have access to this information.
Awww, Groucho, I wasn't trying to make you feel bad. No apology necessary and I'm sorry that you felt like you needed to! It was a lame attempt at humor.
I WAS a numbskull and did give TWI control lock, stock and barrell over my life. I can't believe I was that gullible and stupid seeing as how rebellious I have been my whole life. Hi, Mom!
I call 'em TWIts and I was one, too and freely admit it. Not proudly, mind you - just freely.
When I talked to my daddy about the debt teachings he asked for a copy of the TWI financial statements and was shocked that they didn't make them public like every other church in the world does. That was one of the first red flags for me. He then, like you so aptly mentioned, stated that what I do with my money is my business and nobody else's. It's wild how that seems so logical and common sensical now that I'm out, but I didn't see it when I was still involved. That's why, I think, it's so hard for people to understand what it's like being in a cult like TWI unless they've been there personally.
Kin I buy you a drink, Friend?
And, Chef, thank you!! ;) I think I owe you a few drinks by now!
I'm always hopeful that some "innies" will be reading these threads...maybe it will give them pause to think for themselves for a moment...use the common sense that God gave them to see that the emperor has no clothes.
When I talked to my daddy about the debt teachings he asked for a copy of the TWI financial statements and was shocked that they didn't make them public like every other church in the world does. He then, like you so aptly mentioned, stated that what I do with my money is my business and nobody else's. It's wild how that seems so logical and common sensical now that I'm out, but I didn't see it when I was still involved.
Good for your dad Belle. Yep you take a look at churches. They will show you every dime they spend. It makes me think about when they pass around the collection plate at the end of a service. A lot of people put in cash or checks. People give what they want to give. Most churches teach the tithe and leave it up to the person how much they want to give. Hence another example of twi doctrine going way over what the "Word" says. They made it mandatory to give and squeeze the life out of people. Yeah they really cared about all the "leaves" on the tree. They cared about the cashola, nothing more.
The no debt policy was a dumb one to begin with. Lot of folks still in the twi prison are carrying debt of every kind that normal people carry. The smarter ones have gotten better at keeping their mouths shut. Cook the books. I wonder if alot of people still have two financial folders; one that they show leadership and one that is the real deal.
Please, they aint foolin' anyone. This is the same as the new stuff they puke up like they no longer M&A right, and now encourage reuniting with those they trashed, reconciling with family?
People give what they want to give. Most churches teach the tithe and leave it up to the person how much they want to give. Hence another example of twi doctrine going way over what the "Word" says. They made it mandatory to give and squeeze the life out of people. Yeah they really cared about all the "leaves" on the tree. They cared about the cashola, nothing more.
Most churches understand without being told that tithes ("abundant sharing") are completely voluntary, and cannot be forced from their congregation. Any attempts to do so will result in, at a minimum, their membership leaving in droves. At most, it could lead to criminal prosecution for extortion.
It seems the Way International attempted to insert its control hooks far too deeply, and now are learning a bitter lesson:
you can only &^(% with people for so long, and then they will turn on you.
Twi, in it's frantic attempt to "biblically justify" this intrusive attempt at total control into a person's financial life, failed miserably for numerous reasons....laying your money at the feet of the apostles requires that the apostles in turn, make distribution back according to needs...the scoundrals kept too much of it for themselves...they lived like kings and queens, lording over their glassyeyed followers...
...People were giving all they had, making huge sacrifices...and there was no return on their investment. The "loving and wise apostles" that they had invested in, turned out to be abusive, legalistic, aduterous, lying, meanspirited wannabes. The fruit from this "tree" was predictable (in hindsight), and when people finally arrived at the "NO MORE" point, they fled from twi like Olympic sprinters.
It's sad to see this nasty little cult still hanging on, living off of all the money from their salad days (our money)...still messing with people.
Well sure...that makes perfect sense. You can argue doctrine all you want to but when it comes down to HOW YOU LIVE, people pay attention....
People who are in twi need to understand the reality of their situation. They are flat out being conned. They are expending their energies, their finances and their time to this group...and it's a dead end road. Believe me, Been there, done that.
No debt policy?...Are you kidding me? The people telling you this crap have it made financially...they are still living off of the money that I gave them years ago...THEY don't need to go into debt...twi pays all their expenses! ...but YOU...you poor schmuck...no mortgages for you! You can be a "renter" for the rest of your days...
...twi will leave you dangling...you count on them...you lose.
This policy always perplexed me. I was in the Corps and asked others for sponsership, which always made me feel like I was in debt. I suppose thats one of the reasons I post here at GSC, hoping to repay my debt to those wonderful people that gave of their hard earned finances. I hope that any evil of the former cult I can help expose, they will consider it as payment in full.
A saying I often think of when the "No Debt" topic is discussed is "Will someone, please let me hold a dollar!"
And to think this morning I was talking with a neighbor about buying his small farm. I just finished paying off mine a couple years ago. I guess I just can't wait to get back into debt. It gives one an excuse to show up for work each day I guess.
Thanks to all the wonderful posters here that have a better way with words than I do. Your insight and wisdom is greatly appreciated. And never think its not helpful, even to someone thats been far removed from TWI for over twenty years.
I thought some today about this no debt thingy..I wonder if'n they teach tha Corps now Carlton Sheets techniques how to increase their wealth with a no down payment plan?
I thought some today about this no debt thingy..I wonder if'n they teach tha Corps now Carlton Sheets techniques how to increase their wealth with a no down payment plan?
That would make SOME sense, Littlehawk, but, "no dice".
One of the complaints about twi is that they've been teaching
"all debt is evil" for over a DECADE now,
but-no matter how many people ask-and MANY people have asked-
they have offered NO practical alternatives to debt.
So far, the only examples they've given of people with no debt
are people who inherited money from dying relatives.
So, the closest thing they've gotten to giving advice about that
is "believe for family members who like you to drop dead".
Otherwise, it's "just find a way to make it happen.
And don't forget to send us 15% of your income each month-
Littlehawk - Have you been listening to John Boy & Billy? ;)
I asked many times about HOW to buy a home with cash. My ex asked for me after the umpteenth time because he also wanted to know. (He wanted to know so we could do it. I wanted to know because I knew it couldn't be done by the average Joe Believer with no inheritance.)
I asked why it was okay for Uncle Harry to go into debt and to write a book basically on nothing but how he managed his debt to become prosperous and to help TWI, but it wasn't okay for us to follow his example? They would pull ONE FRIGGIN SENTENCE from the whole book where he says something about debt not being a good thing. ONE FRIGGIN' SENTENCE!!
Someone on here can vouch for how absolutely annoying I was about the debt stuff. I was constantly studying what other Biblical scholars, religions, financial planners, bankers, etc. said on the topic and always shared it with the people in our branch. I shared as much of Chris Jordan's paper as they would let me. But my ex would usually try to shut me up before I got us in trouble.
Everyone knew it was b.s. - even Su* Bl@ckmor*-D@vis told me she knew they were wrong and that they would never admit to it. She desperately wants a house, but is to scared to do anything about it in fear of defying TWI leadership. It's a good thing too because in my area they are running out of qualified HFCs because so many people are buying houses.
One lady is going to be in financial straits pretty soon because her health is failing, she sold the house she almost had fully paid for and has been paying very high rent for the past ten years. No doubt she gave at least 15% of the money from the sale of the house to TWI, too.
These poor people are in for such a rude awakening that it breaks my heart to think about it. The kids in TWI aren't going to have jack sh1t of an inheritance because their parents are going to be living off them and just barely scraping by in their "sunset years".
I asked why it was okay for Uncle Harry to go into debt and to write a book basically on nothing but how he managed his debt to become prosperous and to help TWI, but it wasn't okay for us to follow his example? They would pull ONE FRIGGIN SENTENCE from the whole book where he says something about debt not being a good thing. ONE FRIGGIN' SENTENCE!!
So true! So true!
Pull a FRIGGIN' SENTENCE here..........and a FRIGGIN' SENTENCE there..........why, don't they just read WHAT'S WRITTEN???? instead of reading *around* what's written????
Uncle Harry managed his debt......twi. You got THAT?!
Everyone knew it was b.s. - even Su* Bl@ckmor*-D@vis told me she knew they were wrong and that they would never admit to it. She desperately wants a house, but is to scared to do anything about it in fear of defying TWI leadership. It's a good thing too because in my area they are running out of qualified HFCs because so many people are buying houses.
It's kinda ironic that you mention it because on my last months at TWI, that person was always ranting that buying a house is a lousy investment and waste of money because of the high interests at the time (1996).
It's funny that person desperately wants a house when it was her telling the twig that she was coordinating to not buy a house.
Some people live and learn and Some just live and not learn.
FFC, it's funny how perspective changes when one gets married and has kids. That long term financial security and good school district thing becomes a lot more important then, doesn't it? ;)
FFC, it's funny how perspective changes when one gets married and has kids. That long term financial security and good school district thing becomes a lot more important then, doesn't it? ;)
You got that right, Belle.
Too bad it's too late for that person to tell it to the people that left the twig that person was coordinating.
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justloafing
My thought exactly Patriot. Such Heavy Revy going on these days at twi, Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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GrouchoMarxJr
Belle...My apologies to you. My remarks were not meant to offend you or anyone else who fell prey to twi's intrusive doctrines and policies.
I also fell prey to many of twi's intrusive doctrines and policies over a period of some 13 years. I suppose my harsh words were prompted by my total disdain and ire towards twi and what they did to so many people...I never intended to insult the victims of this insideous cult...sorry.
Because I have been out of twi for nearly 20 years now, I often find myself thinking out loud (posting)...about how different my mind works today, being independant of twi's influence.
Although I believe that it's better to be debt free than to be in bondage to debt, I still maintain the position that it is not the business of a religious organization to be privy to a person's personal financial status. Managed debt (home mortages, etc) are certainly appropriate at times...and most all of use credit cards. I just don't think that it the business of the church to have access to this information.
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Belle
Awww, Groucho, I wasn't trying to make you feel bad. No apology necessary and I'm sorry that you felt like you needed to! It was a lame attempt at humor.
I WAS a numbskull and did give TWI control lock, stock and barrell over my life. I can't believe I was that gullible and stupid seeing as how rebellious I have been my whole life.
Hi, Mom!
I call 'em TWIts and I was one, too and freely admit it. Not proudly, mind you - just freely.
When I talked to my daddy about the debt teachings he asked for a copy of the TWI financial statements and was shocked that they didn't make them public like every other church in the world does. That was one of the first red flags for me. He then, like you so aptly mentioned, stated that what I do with my money is my business and nobody else's. It's wild how that seems so logical and common sensical now that I'm out, but I didn't see it when I was still involved. That's why, I think, it's so hard for people to understand what it's like being in a cult like TWI unless they've been there personally.
Kin I buy you a drink, Friend?
And, Chef, thank you!! ;) I think I owe you a few drinks by now!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Sure...I'll have a cold one!
thanx...
I'm always hopeful that some "innies" will be reading these threads...maybe it will give them pause to think for themselves for a moment...use the common sense that God gave them to see that the emperor has no clothes.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
aw belle
you are just too cool!
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justloafing
Good for your dad Belle. Yep you take a look at churches. They will show you every dime they spend. It makes me think about when they pass around the collection plate at the end of a service. A lot of people put in cash or checks. People give what they want to give. Most churches teach the tithe and leave it up to the person how much they want to give. Hence another example of twi doctrine going way over what the "Word" says. They made it mandatory to give and squeeze the life out of people. Yeah they really cared about all the "leaves" on the tree. They cared about the cashola, nothing more.
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Shellon
The no debt policy was a dumb one to begin with. Lot of folks still in the twi prison are carrying debt of every kind that normal people carry. The smarter ones have gotten better at keeping their mouths shut. Cook the books. I wonder if alot of people still have two financial folders; one that they show leadership and one that is the real deal.
Please, they aint foolin' anyone. This is the same as the new stuff they puke up like they no longer M&A right, and now encourage reuniting with those they trashed, reconciling with family?
Uh huh, right.
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FreeFromCults
What a double-standard there
!!!
So for the previous generation when these BOT teenagers were in grade school, it is a no-no to go to college.
Speaking on how this ministry ruined a lot of people's opportunities.
Let me dare to mention that VPW, his brother and even Loy Boy had gone to college.
So why can they do it while other rank-n-file can't?
Hypocrites!!!
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Kevlar2000
Most churches understand without being told that tithes ("abundant sharing") are completely voluntary, and cannot be forced from their congregation. Any attempts to do so will result in, at a minimum, their membership leaving in droves. At most, it could lead to criminal prosecution for extortion.
It seems the Way International attempted to insert its control hooks far too deeply, and now are learning a bitter lesson:
you can only &^(% with people for so long, and then they will turn on you.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well said Kevlar...Well said.
Twi, in it's frantic attempt to "biblically justify" this intrusive attempt at total control into a person's financial life, failed miserably for numerous reasons....laying your money at the feet of the apostles requires that the apostles in turn, make distribution back according to needs...the scoundrals kept too much of it for themselves...they lived like kings and queens, lording over their glassyeyed followers...
...People were giving all they had, making huge sacrifices...and there was no return on their investment. The "loving and wise apostles" that they had invested in, turned out to be abusive, legalistic, aduterous, lying, meanspirited wannabes. The fruit from this "tree" was predictable (in hindsight), and when people finally arrived at the "NO MORE" point, they fled from twi like Olympic sprinters.
It's sad to see this nasty little cult still hanging on, living off of all the money from their salad days (our money)...still messing with people.
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Patriot
[
left]First of all, thanks to all those who contributed to this thread. I personally
believe that it is one of those topics that those inside are still very very
concerned about. Many of them may not base their decision to stand in twi
on whether or not VPW received revelation, or stole someone else's writings.
To them, they appreciate his teachings and will defend his reputation as if
someone called their momma a bad name.
However, when the conversation moves to something that directly affects
daily life decisions, and what THEY themselves can and cannot do in twi,
they will be more apt to reading / considering. Those are the people that I pray
will have it on their hearts to "google" search "The Way" and find us here to
confirm for them what they have silently been thinking. :) For them, let's keep
brewing up some fresh coffee, OK?
To those who are still in, and yet searching for some clarity, I pray that God is
opening your eyes. Ask yourselves what keeps me in twi? If it is because you are
just thrilled with the Word twi teaches, see signs and wonders daily, blessed abundantly
and seeing prayers answered....well, the proof is in the pudding, eh? If not.......
If it is fearing a lies like "there is just nothing outside of twi" or that you are
"turning your back on God" and "you are vulnerable to attack," then keep visiting
us here until you realize those were lies of the adversary to keep you where you are.
Why not at least check into other groups - like CFF, or a local church. Worst case is
you check, and found nothing satisfying. Better, you realize life more than abundant
isn't exclusive to those in "the household" of twi.
Freedom of fearless thought and of bold choice....that, ladies and gentlemen, is
extremely patriotic!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well sure...that makes perfect sense. You can argue doctrine all you want to but when it comes down to HOW YOU LIVE, people pay attention....
People who are in twi need to understand the reality of their situation. They are flat out being conned. They are expending their energies, their finances and their time to this group...and it's a dead end road. Believe me, Been there, done that.
No debt policy?...Are you kidding me? The people telling you this crap have it made financially...they are still living off of the money that I gave them years ago...THEY don't need to go into debt...twi pays all their expenses! ...but YOU...you poor schmuck...no mortgages for you! You can be a "renter" for the rest of your days...
...twi will leave you dangling...you count on them...you lose.
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Littlehawk
This policy always perplexed me. I was in the Corps and asked others for sponsership, which always made me feel like I was in debt. I suppose thats one of the reasons I post here at GSC, hoping to repay my debt to those wonderful people that gave of their hard earned finances. I hope that any evil of the former cult I can help expose, they will consider it as payment in full.
A saying I often think of when the "No Debt" topic is discussed is "Will someone, please let me hold a dollar!"
And to think this morning I was talking with a neighbor about buying his small farm. I just finished paying off mine a couple years ago. I guess I just can't wait to get back into debt. It gives one an excuse to show up for work each day I guess.
Thanks to all the wonderful posters here that have a better way with words than I do. Your insight and wisdom is greatly appreciated. And never think its not helpful, even to someone thats been far removed from TWI for over twenty years.
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Littlehawk
I thought some today about this no debt thingy..I wonder if'n they teach tha Corps now Carlton Sheets techniques how to increase their wealth with a no down payment plan?
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WordWolf
That would make SOME sense, Littlehawk, but, "no dice".
One of the complaints about twi is that they've been teaching
"all debt is evil" for over a DECADE now,
but-no matter how many people ask-and MANY people have asked-
they have offered NO practical alternatives to debt.
So far, the only examples they've given of people with no debt
are people who inherited money from dying relatives.
So, the closest thing they've gotten to giving advice about that
is "believe for family members who like you to drop dead".
Otherwise, it's "just find a way to make it happen.
And don't forget to send us 15% of your income each month-
you still owe THAT."
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Belle
Littlehawk - Have you been listening to John Boy & Billy? ;)
I asked many times about HOW to buy a home with cash. My ex asked for me after the umpteenth time because he also wanted to know. (He wanted to know so we could do it. I wanted to know because I knew it couldn't be done by the average Joe Believer with no inheritance.)
I asked why it was okay for Uncle Harry to go into debt and to write a book basically on nothing but how he managed his debt to become prosperous and to help TWI, but it wasn't okay for us to follow his example? They would pull ONE FRIGGIN SENTENCE from the whole book where he says something about debt not being a good thing. ONE FRIGGIN' SENTENCE!!
Someone on here can vouch for how absolutely annoying I was about the debt stuff. I was constantly studying what other Biblical scholars, religions, financial planners, bankers, etc. said on the topic and always shared it with the people in our branch. I shared as much of Chris Jordan's paper as they would let me.
But my ex would usually try to shut me up before I got us in trouble.
Everyone knew it was b.s. - even Su* Bl@ckmor*-D@vis told me she knew they were wrong and that they would never admit to it. She desperately wants a house, but is to scared to do anything about it in fear of defying TWI leadership. It's a good thing too because in my area they are running out of qualified HFCs because so many people are buying houses.
One lady is going to be in financial straits pretty soon because her health is failing, she sold the house she almost had fully paid for and has been paying very high rent for the past ten years. No doubt she gave at least 15% of the money from the sale of the house to TWI, too.
These poor people are in for such a rude awakening that it breaks my heart to think about it. The kids in TWI aren't going to have jack sh1t of an inheritance because their parents are going to be living off them and just barely scraping by in their "sunset years".
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Patriot
Belle,
I'm glad that you brought up the Uncle Harry accounts. Those bothered me to no
end. Probably a good place to start another thread.
Not sure if true, but a friend told me that twi WAS removing all the Uncle Harry
books for just that reason.
And, by the way, I heard of some BC's wouldn't teach the stuff from HQ on
debt because they themselves were so unconvinced about twi's perspective on the
debt issue, that Moneyhands actually were suprised to find out that topic wasn't covered
To stand against tyranical standards......pretty patriotic!
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topoftheworld
Hmm: wonder how long they will stay BC's? (in the kinder, gentler TWI, of course).
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skyrider
So true! So true!
Pull a FRIGGIN' SENTENCE here..........and a FRIGGIN' SENTENCE there..........why, don't they just read WHAT'S WRITTEN???? instead of reading *around* what's written????
Uncle Harry managed his debt......twi. You got THAT?!
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FreeFromCults
It's kinda ironic that you mention it because on my last months at TWI, that person was always ranting that buying a house is a lousy investment and waste of money because of the high interests at the time (1996).
It's funny that person desperately wants a house when it was her telling the twig that she was coordinating to not buy a house.
Some people live and learn and Some just live and not learn.
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Belle
FFC, it's funny how perspective changes when one gets married and has kids. That long term financial security and good school district thing becomes a lot more important then, doesn't it? ;)
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FreeFromCults
You got that right, Belle.
Too bad it's too late for that person to tell it to the people that left the twig that person was coordinating.
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