You know, really and truly, a no debt policy is not totally a bad thing.
For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve.
Debt can really tie a person down...and makes that person, in a fashion, enslaved to the person to whom he owes the debt (think about it, the bank can repo your house or car if you miss a payment or two...that means when you are working, your first obligation is to make those payments)
I can see having some really hard teachings on the subject of debt. I really can. And I can see telling a person who wishes to go into a full time service position that he should be totally debt-free prior to entering that commitment and maintain that debt-free status. I can see a teaching where a person is counselled that any revolving debt needs to be paid off in full each month. I really can.
But not everybody is called to live that full-time service position. Frankly, if you look at 1 Cor 7, it lays it out fairly well:
1Cr 7:33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
1Cr 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
1Cr 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
The point is that some people are called to be single...and totally and completely dedicate themselves to the things of God. Some people are called to be married...in which case they need to concern themselves with taking care of their families...
Having the same debt rules (or any type of spiritual discipline) for both classes of folks makes no sense in that context.
The debt issue.......for most innies is still a very hot topic no matter which side you stand. Although, I have to say that it is starting to tilt more toward that the personal finances of a believer is no one's business.
I personaly believe that if you commit yourself to be a minister then you should have no debt. Even in the old testament the Priests weren't allowed to own land. God will bless you back for your service, if God is really your main resource.
As far as everyone else in leadership positions (or not) nothing is addressed to the church. It's kind of funny how in the old testament it was very clear what was exceptable. Then poof - there's nothing addressed to the church.
On the other hand, the word does tell us to be wise, modest, and warns us of traps. So, what kind of traps are wrapped up in debt?????
It's not a mortgage - unless it's above what you can afford. Because you could find yourself in the same boat with rent. <RENT IS DEBT - YOU OWE IT EVERY MONTH>
I asked this question to friends of mine, who are very anal that debt is wrong, why is it considered debt to owe on a mortgage and not rent. They gave me advise from every senses angle and a few verses taked out of context.
Then I asked - I owe my landlord every month, if I don't pay, it ruins my life same as a mortgage. Where in the word does it say that mortgage is bad but OWING rent is not debt????????
The response I got ............ no one will be surprised...........
YOU WILL NOT FIND WERE IT SAYS THAT IN THE WORD _ NOT CLEARLY DEFINED LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!
Of course I asked, then why does TWI punish people and hold the word against and from people who don't agree?
The answer......... Leadership gets inspiration from God on how to protect the body of christ. Then a lot of excuses came, and a lot of I don't knows and I'll ask my cabinet overseer when we get back to hq. Because we don't know this topic as well as we thought. ( I asked them if paying interest is so devilish why was the nation of Israel allowed to charge interest to outsiders ) ( They didn't know that the word said that)
This happened a few years ago and they have chilled out some. We were very loving with them and just asked thought provoking, gentle, yet piercing questions.
I THINK IT WOULD BE FUNNY IF EVERYONE BOUGHT A HOUSE AT THE SAME TIME----- DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD RETHINK THEIR POLICY THEN???????
I think it's ridiculous to make lay ministers like the WC on the field who are not full time, live without debt if it's necessary and manageable. Foxes may have holes and birds may have their nests, but WC ministers are NOT called to be the Son of God but TWI expected them to be.
How does a minister truly minster to people if he's constantly having to move, constantly needing to buy things to take care of his family that he can't afford? If he's unable to stay in an area long enough to get to know the people and to build a reputation in the community? How can his life and the life of his kids be a witness to others if they are constantly uprooted, moving, changing schools and spending far more money on rent than they would on buying a house? What kind of job can you get when your resume shows you moving every few years? How much of a retirement nest egg are you able to build?
How can he preach and promise "the more abundant life" if he lives in a tiny apartment with college dorm room furniture and a piece of trash car that the whole family has to share? He shouldn't live lavishly, but he should be allowed to buy a typical middle class house, drive safe, reliable automobiles and not rely on curb alerts for his furniture.
TWI laughs at the poverty mindset of the Catholics, when, in reality, they live 10,000 times better than the average WC on the field (with the exception of full time WC). That's the primary reason I never wanted to go into the WC training. I did NOT want to live like a pauper and when one signs up for the WC that's what they are signing up for.
I asked time and time again to tell us HOW to pay cash for a house. Moneyhands started avoiding me because he knew I was going to ask WHEN we were going to hear a retraction on the teaching that they knew was wrong. He knew I was going to ask HOW we were supposed to pay cash for a house since that's what TWI was saying we had to do. He didn't have an answer and he knew I already knew the answer given my Daddy's background (and our e-mail correspondence I've posted previously).
Daddy taught me to pay cash for everything and to not live beyond my means. HOWEVER, cars and houses are NOT beyond our means when we buy within our means to pay them off. It's "managing your debt" that's the key to living within your means.
When I bought my first car Daddy and I looked at how much money I made and how much my living expenses were.
We considered the cost of insurance on a new car and the current interest rate for auto loans.
From there we figured out how much of a monthly payment I could afford and, with that information, how much car I could afford to buy (not much!!)
I went into the finance office armed with my negotiated price and knowing full well what my payment would be each month. When the finance officer tried to pull one over on me, I was able to fight back and get the proper price and finance charge.
I was in debt for my car, but it was a debt I could easily and comfortably pay each month. Same thing for my house. I drove the car for 220,000 miles and during that time saved up enough money to pay cash for my next car. My house has appreciated nearly $200K in value since I bought it.
TWIts will never experience this kind of financial freedom because TWI won't let them and because the TWIts continue to allow TWI to tell them what to do with their time, their money, their minds, their lives. It's so sad, really.
I didn't mean to imply that WC should live like paulpers, no one should live like that when they are doing the work of Jesus Christ. I think TWI should give them some type of incentive like other churches give their ministers.
One of the churches I grew up in gave their minister a house to live in, a newer model car was bought for them etc. If they are giving their lives for service - they should be taken care of by the abs - that's what it's for - right. Distibute to the necessaties of the saints, no lack etc.
You know, really and truly, a no debt policy is not totally a bad thing.
For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve.
Debt can really tie a person down...and makes that person, in a fashion, enslaved to the person to whom he owes the debt (think about it, the bank can repo your house or car if you miss a payment or two...that means when you are working, your first obligation is to make those payments)
I can see having some really hard teachings on the subject of debt. I really can. And I can see telling a person who wishes to go into a full time service position that he should be totally debt-free prior to entering that commitment and maintain that debt-free status. I can see a teaching where a person is counselled that any revolving debt needs to be paid off in full each month. I really can.
But not everybody is called to live that full-time service position. Frankly, if you look at 1 Cor 7, it lays it out fairly well:
1Cr 7:33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
1Cr 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
1Cr 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
The point is that some people are called to be single...and totally and completely dedicate themselves to the things of God. Some people are called to be married...in which case they need to concern themselves with taking care of their families...
Having the same debt rules (or any type of spiritual discipline) for both classes of folks makes no sense in that context.
Just something to consider.
FWIW.
YMMV.
Yeah.........my mileage DOES VARY.
First of all, "called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve" is......imo, a twi-fabricated concept. According to the Book of Acts and some epistles, many men carried out their ministries in one area. Of course, there were those who did itineraries and all.....but periods of 2-5 years was not uncommon.
Secondly, doctor w-w-wierwille spent 16 years in Van Wert, before relocating to the wierwille homestead till the day he died. Marindale never moved from 1976-2000......until he was ousted. And, if one looks at Christian church leaders.......long stints of pastoring churches is common.
Twi has such an OVERBLOATED, BIZZARE CULT SET-UP......that one must re-examine the hypocrisy from which these "debt statements" and such are originating. What?????.....some 300+ staff at twi's property in ohio to serve the mogs/mogettes their meals, do their laundry, mow the lawns, run their errands, clean their homes, etc.
Why doesn't twi DO THE WORD...???....and follow the patterns of the first century church? Why all the bureaucratic levels (like worldly organizations)...and NO full-time staff in dozens of states???
This whole twi "no debt policy" is LOADED and DRIPPING with hypocrisy.
They hire some 1200 corps full-time in 1995.....and tell them to abandon all past employment to be "available to serve." WITHIN WEEKS.....corps are being released (fired). Most here on GS have heard the details of this blundering fiasco by twi.
Twi plays favorites.......always have! The corps on the field are playing "jump the hoops that the region guy sets before you" or ELSE. If he doesn't like your personality, or your physical appearance, or your teaching style, or your corps reports, or whatever......YOU are likely to be on the chopping block. NO RECOURSE OF ACTION........because the cultish chain of command will ONLY support the region guy.
Yes.......in an environment of Christian living and leading.......a spiritually-even playing field......then, I would agree that the debt issue should have strong parameters.
But.......in twi......an ever-changing cultish commune of collaberating commanders......IT DOESN'T WORK and never will. Imo, many corps alumni stepped down willfully from their corps status because they didn't trust twi with their lives, their families, their future.
One ex-limb guy.....who STILL adheres to twi doctrine.....told me outright that, "He doesn't give a shix about twi's policies and wants twi to stay away from his shix." And, this guy, along with his wife and family are considered "followers of twi" and on their books as "faithful."
My house has appreciated nearly $200K in value since I bought it.
Exactly Belle. If you were still in. You would have to abundantly share at lest $20,000 when and if you sold the house. twi wants to push people so hard for their measly 10% - 20% of their paychecks. They never look at the big picture. No wonder the great forehead is not running a fortune 500 company but driving the big brown truck and sweating in a gym.
OK, well, I'm glad I placed that caveat there then
First of all, "called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve" is......imo, a twi-fabricated concept. According to the Book of Acts and some epistles, many men carried out their ministries in one area. Of course, there were those who did itineraries and all.....but periods of 2-5 years was not uncommon.
The apostles scattered to the four winds. Yes, there were some that did itineraries, a la Paul, but some left and didn't return. Andrew and Thomas come to mind right up front.
Now as far as TWI's concept is concerned, I'm sure you have read enough of my posts to know that I have nothing, nothing positive to say about TWI. In fact, if you decided to re-read my post, I think you'd find a pretty good criticism of them (once again) screwing up a perfectly good biblical concept.
Secondly, doctor w-w-wierwille spent 16 years in Van Wert, before relocating to the wierwille homestead till the day he died. Marindale never moved from 1976-2000......until he was ousted. And, if one looks at Christian church leaders.......long stints of pastoring churches is common.
And then that advice wouldn't apply, would it. Although maybe it should. To use TWI as an example for ANYTHING (other than as an example of how NOT to do something) is a foolish gesture, imho.
Twi has such an OVERBLOATED, BIZZARE CULT SET-UP......that one must re-examine the hypocrisy from which these "debt statements" and such are originating. What?????.....some 300+ staff at twi's property in ohio to serve the mogs/mogettes their meals, do their laundry, mow the lawns, run their errands, clean their homes, etc.
To repeat what I said, To use TWI as an example for ANYTHING (other than as an example of how NOT to do something) is a foolish gesture, imho.
Why doesn't twi DO THE WORD...???....and follow the patterns of the first century church? Why all the bureaucratic levels (like worldly organizations)...and NO full-time staff in dozens of states???
This whole twi "no debt policy" is LOADED and DRIPPING with hypocrisy.
They hire some 1200 corps full-time in 1995.....and tell them to abandon all past employment to be "available to serve." WITHIN WEEKS.....corps are being released (fired). Most here on GS have heard the details of this blundering fiasco by twi.
Twi plays favorites.......always have! The corps on the field are playing "jump the hoops that the region guy sets before you" or ELSE. If he doesn't like your personality, or your physical appearance, or your teaching style, or your corps reports, or whatever......YOU are likely to be on the chopping block. NO RECOURSE OF ACTION........because the cultish chain of command will ONLY support the region guy.
Yes.......in an environment of Christian living and leading.......a spiritually-even playing field......then, I would agree that the debt issue should have strong parameters.
But.......in twi......an ever-changing cultish commune of collaberating commanders......IT DOESN'T WORK and never will. Imo, many corps alumni stepped down willfully from their corps status because they didn't trust twi with their lives, their families, their future.
One ex-limb guy.....who STILL adheres to twi doctrine.....told me outright that, "He doesn't give a shix about twi's policies and wants twi to stay away from his shix." And, this guy, along with his wife and family are considered "followers of twi" and on their books as "faithful."
OK
For some reason, I think that you believe that I am apologizing for TWI.
Oh, puhleese, not hardly.
Let's look again at what I did say and not what you (apparently) read:
You know, really and truly, a no debt policy is not totally a bad thing.
For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve.
Debt can really tie a person down...and makes that person, in a fashion, enslaved to the person to whom he owes the debt (think about it, the bank can repo your house or car if you miss a payment or two...that means when you are working, your first obligation is to make those payments)
I can see having some really hard teachings on the subject of debt. I really can. And I can see telling a person who wishes to go into a full time service position that he should be totally debt-free prior to entering that commitment and maintain that debt-free status. I can see a teaching where a person is counselled that any revolving debt needs to be paid off in full each month. I really can.
You will please note that I said a no debt policy. Not TWI's no debt policy. This places it in the hypothetical (thus the use of the word a vice the)
Then you'll note I said, For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve.
You will note that I did not say the Way Corps. I did not say TWI staff. I was not even referring to TWI, at all. (please refer back to the discussion on a vice the)
Then, you'll see the following couple of paragraphs. That explains why I believe that a (vice the) debt policy is a good thing for the category of people about whom I was referring.
But not everybody is called to live that full-time service position. Frankly, if you look at 1 Cor 7, it lays it out fairly well:
1Cr 7:33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
1Cr 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
1Cr 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
The point is that some people are called to be single...and totally and completely dedicate themselves to the things of God. Some people are called to be married...in which case they need to concern themselves with taking care of their families...
Having the same debt rules (or any type of spiritual discipline) for both classes of folks makes no sense in that context.
I further go on to say: But not everybody is called to live that full-time service position.
That further clarifies the condition I mentioned earlier (For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve). I just said not everybody is called. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 'no debt' policy implemented by TWI apply to everybody? So if I made the statement not everybody is called, then how in the world could I possibly be talking about the abortion of TWI???
Then I cite some scripture. 1 Cor 7. (Wait a minute, 1 Cor 7 doesn't talk about debt, does it?)
Why did I cite that particular passage? Because it pointed out that some folks are called to be single and some to be married. I cited only three verses out of that section rather than the whole section. (the purpose of it being to identify that married folk and single folk would naturally have different agendas and that neither is bad)
Why did I cite that section? Because it clearly shows that married folks have an obligation to take care of their families. As I said earlier: The point is that some people are called to be single...and totally and completely dedicate themselves to the things of God. Some people are called to be married...in which case they need to concern themselves with taking care of their families...
So, with the distinction that the Apostle Paul mentions (unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord vice married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband), which one is the one who would be the better candidate for the class I was discussing (those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve)?
Obviously not.
Obviously the "no debt" policy implemented by TWI was counter to the purposes of the good of married folks (again, I am not speaking about credit card debt, I am primarily speaking about house mortgages, business loans, car loans, etc.). The debt policy implemented by them forced people to live in a lifestyle where they couldn't concern themselves with how to please his/her wife/husband.
So, are we clear on this? I was not saying that TWI's "no debt policy was good (and, frankly, there is no way that a reasonable person should have been able to accuse me of saying that if he simply read what I wrote dispassionately).
Let me try again, using different words, to re-state what I already said:
I believe that a no-debt policy (although badly mangled by TWI to the detriment and harm of their followers) has its place in a limited scope and application. Those people who feel called to remain unattached (i.e., single) and wish to dedicate their lives totally in service to God (i.e., foregoing a family or other earthly attachments) should be totally unencumbered by debt, even in this day and age. The rationale for such a statement on my part is that a mortgage, car payment, business loan, etc., would tend to tie a person down from the obligation that the person takes on to repay the debt.
I say single, echoing the concerns mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 7, because the moral commitment taken on through marriage and parenthood would put temporal obligations on a person that would reduce their ability to be responsive in the way discussed by the Apostle.
In addition, such a person should probably be very circumspect in the jobs he or she takes, as well. Business owners, managers, involvment in long-term projects, and so on, would also tend to incur a moral obligation to stay in a certain place for a significant period of time, thus minimizing that person's responsiveness. Thus, a person who felt so called would need to acknowledge internally that in dedicating his/her life in such a fashion, he/she would also voluntarily forego much material wealth that would otherwise be available to somebody who would be in a position to make a long-term business commitment.
Does this degrade the value of a person who has accepted either the obligations of a family or the obligations of responsibility for others (e.g., through work)? No. Not at all. Should a no-debt policy (e.g., mortgages, business loans) apply to those people who are taking on long-term responsibilities? No.
Is this in any way a defense of the TWI no-debt policy? No. What they did was a perversion of a perfectly good Biblical principle. Their policy was directly responsible for unnecessary poverty, unnecessary illness, and unnecessary stress.
There. Hopefully that communicated it a bit better.
Oh, btw, you know who I was referring to when talking about groups to whom a no-debt policy should apply? Groups like Franciscan Friars, Dominicans, members of Catholic Worker houses, and other forms of consecrated life. There is no way that those groups could deal with individual debts of their members....
There. Hopefully that communicated it a bit better.
Oh, btw, you know who I was referring to when talking about groups to whom a no-debt policy should apply? Groups like Franciscan Friars, Dominicans, members of Catholic Worker houses, and other forms of consecrated life. There is no way that those groups could deal with individual debts of their members....
Again, FWIW, IMHO, and YMMV
Thanks Mark.......had no idea you were referring to groups like Franciscan Friars, Dominicans, members of Catholic Worker houses.....etc.
Silly me......I was reading through this thread, TWI's "No Debt" Policy in the About The Way forum and the opening post with references to twi, BOD, innies, etc. and the posts that followed. When I came to your post, no specifics were introduced to cause me to think you were discussing something other than the aforementioned twi no-debt policy.
Thanks Mark.......had no idea you were referring to groups like Franciscan Friars, Dominicans, members of Catholic Worker houses.....etc.
Silly me......I was reading through this thread, TWI's "No Debt" Policy in the About The Way forum and the opening post with references to twi, BOD, innies, etc. and the posts that followed. When I came to your post, no specifics were introduced to cause me to think you were discussing something other than the aforementioned twi no-debt policy.
Thanks for clarifying.
Sorry, I was just trying (in my usual off-the-wall fashion) to show that once again, TWI screws up a perfectly good concept.
That's my usual line: that TWI perverted everything they touched.
Sorry, I was just trying (in my usual off-the-wall fashion) to show that <font face='comic sans ms' size=4 color='990000'>once again, </font><font face='comic sans ms' size=4 color='000000'>TWI screws up a perfectly good concept.</font>
That's my usual line: that TWI perverted everything they touched.
Mark......I couldn't agree more.
On a further note, you bring alot of depth "to the table" here at Greasespot Cafe. I certainly appreciate that. Whereas, some of us......like me......spent 24 years in twi's cultish environment and experienced the warpness, exploitation, and devastation firsthand. It has taken me YEARS to de-waybrain.
Keep sharing.......just clarify it a little better.......for people like me.
My position on twi's "debt doctrine" is slightly different from what others may think about it...I firmly believe that whether or not a person is in debt is NONE OF TWI's BUSINESS!!! This is a personal thing and no church has the right to delve into this area of a person's life.
I left twi in 1987...had this doctrine been in force when I first got involved in 1975...well, I never would have got involved. The only time a twi "clergyman" ever asked me about my personal finances, (he asked me how much I made, as he wanted to calculate my tithe for me)...I squinted my eyes at him and told him it was none of his damn business..nobody ever asked me again.
Anyone who opens their personal financial status to a church (upon demand), is a gutless wonder to begin with...It's bad enough that the IRS sticks their nose into it.
Anyone who opens their personal financial status to a church (upon demand), is a gutless wonder to begin with...It's bad enough that the IRS sticks their nose into it.
Thanks, Groucho. I haven't been called enough names today and was actually starting to feel good about myself.
Actually, I do wish I hadn't been a gutless wonder and I would LOVE for those who are still in to realize that they do not have to turn their lives over to TWI for them to tell them what to do with their time, minds, finances, things, families, etc.... So many, especially those who were raised in TWI, don't realize that other churches don't do this. Heck, they don't even think it's odd that TWI doesn't allow anyone to see the financial statements and books to know where their ABS goes.
It's just not as easy for some of us as it seems to have been for you.
For my personal self, I'd never go into debt for a car. However that doesn't mean I would condemn you for doing it.
One of the worst things twi did about this debt policy was require obedience before all the learning had been done. I believe that banning students from classes if they were in debt was stupid.
The Way's no debt policy was simply to keep people free of financial entaglements so they could be highly mobile and ready for relocation at a moment's notice. They also encouraged a "full house" living arrangement to keep people's minds on TWI and its priorities. I was told to take forms of employment that weren't demanding or would require lots of overtime since I needed to concern myself with "the things of the ministry". Additionally, people were discouraged from going to college (I certainly was and thank God I didn't listen to them) since such a commitment would inhibit ones' ability to participate in WOW and Corps programs. Sure, they had some form of college outreach but anyone who was serious about academics didnt' have time to recruit for TWI and hawk PFAL. I view all way policies as methods to keep people available for relocation and ready for marching orders. They keep you busy with twigs, classes, family nights, sunday night tape listening, supporting classes, financial record keeping to the extent that you marginalize yourself from your friends, family, and even your job. After that, all you have left is TWI which is what they want.
One of the worst things twi did about this debt policy was require obedience before all the learning had been done. I believe that banning students from classes if they were in debt was stupid.
True enough!
The Way's no debt policy was simply to keep people free of financial entaglements so they could be highly mobile and ready for relocation at a moment's notice. They also encouraged a "full house" living arrangement to keep people's minds on TWI and its priorities. I was told to take forms of employment that weren't demanding or would require lots of overtime since I needed to concern myself with "the things of the ministry". Additionally, people were discouraged from going to college (I certainly was and thank God I didn't listen to them) since such a commitment would inhibit ones' ability to participate in WOW and Corps programs. Sure, they had some form of college outreach but anyone who was serious about academics didnt' have time to recruit for TWI and hawk PFAL. I view all way policies as methods to keep people available for relocation and ready for marching orders. They keep you busy with twigs, classes, family nights, sunday night tape listening, supporting classes, financial record keeping to the extent that you marginalize yourself from your friends, family, and even your job. After that, all you have left is TWI which is what they want.
And the issue applies doubly to those who had families (as in wives/husbands and kids {who weren't aborted per their command}) -- to require this form of discipline of EVERYBODY, regardless of their existing moral commitments, is absolutely
I do agree that people should either stay out of debt [whenever possible], or they should seriously consider and be very careful each time they get into debt.
My wife and I were active in TWI for 19 and 18 years respectively. We ran twig fellowships in each area that we were stationed in, and I led fellowships on each submarine that I lived on-board. We did have disagreements with WC leadership, almost everytime that we encountered them. However our mortgage debt was never a source of any of this disagreement.
In California we owned a Multi-Family property and we leased homes out to members of our fellowship. We bought the property on a mortgage, and lived there in one of the houses ourselves, while running a fellowship and we made housing available to TWI followers. We ran PFAL classes, and were given much grief over running PFAL classes, as we were not WC and had to 'beg' for each PFAL beta tape, each time for each session.
In Scotland, we owned a Multi-Family building, and we leased apartments to fellow sailors and ran a Twig out of our apartment. We ran PFAL classes while living there, and we had a wonderful fellowship with believers who lived in our building. The only real problem that we had with WC was each time we had to get a PFAL class together. Not getting new students, but rather borrowing the tapes. No WC ever asked, or said anything about how we had purchased the building, or whether we had bought it with a mortgage.
In Connecticut, we bought a Multi-family building with a mortgage and we ran another Twig. We ran PFAL classes, and we offered apartments to the believers in the area, whenever we had an empty unit. We also had boarders living with us. Over the years we were there, we did have 'run-in's with WC. At one point the Limb Leader encouraged me to continue performing weddings for the believers in our twig, but when a new WC couple was brought in to to be Limb Coordinators, they did have an issue with weddings that I had been doing. Eventually I was thrown 'out' for serving to the needs of the believers in our twig. The WC limb leaders never said a word about us having a mortgage, and nothing about us having boarders, or renting apartments to believers.
In Washington, we bought another building and ran a twig in our home, and on the boat I was stationed on. We again had boarders living with us and ran PFAL classes. No WC ever said anything to us about having a mortgage, or how we had bought our home. Eventually we were thrown 'out' again. Not due to the weddings that I was performing, but this time, it was due to a fellow believer, who was doing some painting for us, and he searched through our closets to find 'forbidden' books. A book written by Rev. Cummins and for owning this book, we were thrown 'out' once again. In Washington, we were never approached by any WC on the topic of our mortgage.
The Way's no debt policy was simply to keep people free of financial entanglements
A)so they could be highly mobile and ready for relocation at a moment's notice.
B)They also encouraged a "full house" living arrangement to keep people's minds on TWI and its priorities.
C) I was told to take forms of employment that weren't demanding or would require lots of overtime since I needed to concern myself with "the things of the ministry".
D)Additionally, people were discouraged from going to college (I certainly was and thank God I didn't listen to them) since such a commitment would inhibit ones' ability to participate in WOW and Corps programs. Sure, they had some form of college outreach but anyone who was serious about academics didnt' have time to recruit for TWI and hawk PFAL.
I view all way policies as methods to keep people available for relocation and ready for marching orders. They keep you busy with twigs, classes, family nights, sunday night tape listening, supporting classes, financial record keeping to the extent that you marginalize yourself from your friends, family, and even your job. After that, all you have left is TWI which is what they want.
Don't forget how the "college" rule changed suddenly when bot's teenagers were ready
to start college-then "no college" became an "old wineskin"...
I went in to college when it was still ok to take out school loans. Then that changed and I was questioned regularly why I had loans for school. Hadn't I heard all those teachings? Unfortunately I didn't have all that ABS to pay for MY schooling. I couldn't afford it, even with my 11K/yr in scholarships and grants. I was going to one of the best art schools in the country and doing really well there, but quit after my second year for fear of what all that debt might do to me spiritually. $*@!E!
But of course if I hadn't of left at the time many things would have changed and I'm happy as I am now and all that. So even though it still *%^#*es me off, I guess I can't complain.
i wonder what leader sh##t would have done to me if they had learned that i borrowed 2 grand $$$$$ for me and my ex to go to the ac at gunnison!! frig them i wanted to do it and i did now in a way i am glad i did but wish i hadn't wasted the $$
yes its interesting. I know of many people who borrowed money to pay for PFAL and other classes. And they were open about it and the area leaders would say positive things like "now thats believing". Anything to get you to take classes or buy books of course. But isn't borrowing money placing yourself in debt ? Why didn't they complain about people who borrowed cash to take the class ? Debt is debt even if its $40 or $400,000 so they were being hypocritical. What a shocker !
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markomalley
You know, really and truly, a no debt policy is not totally a bad thing.
For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve.
Debt can really tie a person down...and makes that person, in a fashion, enslaved to the person to whom he owes the debt (think about it, the bank can repo your house or car if you miss a payment or two...that means when you are working, your first obligation is to make those payments)
I can see having some really hard teachings on the subject of debt. I really can. And I can see telling a person who wishes to go into a full time service position that he should be totally debt-free prior to entering that commitment and maintain that debt-free status. I can see a teaching where a person is counselled that any revolving debt needs to be paid off in full each month. I really can.
But not everybody is called to live that full-time service position. Frankly, if you look at 1 Cor 7, it lays it out fairly well:
1Cr 7:33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
1Cr 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
1Cr 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
The point is that some people are called to be single...and totally and completely dedicate themselves to the things of God. Some people are called to be married...in which case they need to concern themselves with taking care of their families...
Having the same debt rules (or any type of spiritual discipline) for both classes of folks makes no sense in that context.
Just something to consider.
FWIW.
YMMV.
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djs
The debt issue.......for most innies is still a very hot topic no matter which side you stand. Although, I have to say that it is starting to tilt more toward that the personal finances of a believer is no one's business.
I personaly believe that if you commit yourself to be a minister then you should have no debt. Even in the old testament the Priests weren't allowed to own land. God will bless you back for your service, if God is really your main resource.
As far as everyone else in leadership positions (or not) nothing is addressed to the church. It's kind of funny how in the old testament it was very clear what was exceptable. Then poof - there's nothing addressed to the church.
I'll start another one - this one is long.
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djs
On the other hand, the word does tell us to be wise, modest, and warns us of traps. So, what kind of traps are wrapped up in debt?????
It's not a mortgage - unless it's above what you can afford. Because you could find yourself in the same boat with rent. <RENT IS DEBT - YOU OWE IT EVERY MONTH>
I asked this question to friends of mine, who are very anal that debt is wrong, why is it considered debt to owe on a mortgage and not rent. They gave me advise from every senses angle and a few verses taked out of context.
Then I asked - I owe my landlord every month, if I don't pay, it ruins my life same as a mortgage. Where in the word does it say that mortgage is bad but OWING rent is not debt????????
The response I got ............ no one will be surprised...........
YOU WILL NOT FIND WERE IT SAYS THAT IN THE WORD _ NOT CLEARLY DEFINED LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!
Of course I asked, then why does TWI punish people and hold the word against and from people who don't agree?
The answer......... Leadership gets inspiration from God on how to protect the body of christ. Then a lot of excuses came, and a lot of I don't knows and I'll ask my cabinet overseer when we get back to hq. Because we don't know this topic as well as we thought. ( I asked them if paying interest is so devilish why was the nation of Israel allowed to charge interest to outsiders ) ( They didn't know that the word said that)
This happened a few years ago and they have chilled out some. We were very loving with them and just asked thought provoking, gentle, yet piercing questions.
I THINK IT WOULD BE FUNNY IF EVERYONE BOUGHT A HOUSE AT THE SAME TIME----- DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD RETHINK THEIR POLICY THEN???????
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Belle
Dissenter here.
I think it's ridiculous to make lay ministers like the WC on the field who are not full time, live without debt if it's necessary and manageable. Foxes may have holes and birds may have their nests, but WC ministers are NOT called to be the Son of God but TWI expected them to be.
How does a minister truly minster to people if he's constantly having to move, constantly needing to buy things to take care of his family that he can't afford? If he's unable to stay in an area long enough to get to know the people and to build a reputation in the community? How can his life and the life of his kids be a witness to others if they are constantly uprooted, moving, changing schools and spending far more money on rent than they would on buying a house? What kind of job can you get when your resume shows you moving every few years? How much of a retirement nest egg are you able to build?
How can he preach and promise "the more abundant life" if he lives in a tiny apartment with college dorm room furniture and a piece of trash car that the whole family has to share? He shouldn't live lavishly, but he should be allowed to buy a typical middle class house, drive safe, reliable automobiles and not rely on curb alerts for his furniture.
TWI laughs at the poverty mindset of the Catholics, when, in reality, they live 10,000 times better than the average WC on the field (with the exception of full time WC). That's the primary reason I never wanted to go into the WC training. I did NOT want to live like a pauper and when one signs up for the WC that's what they are signing up for.
I asked time and time again to tell us HOW to pay cash for a house. Moneyhands started avoiding me because he knew I was going to ask WHEN we were going to hear a retraction on the teaching that they knew was wrong. He knew I was going to ask HOW we were supposed to pay cash for a house since that's what TWI was saying we had to do. He didn't have an answer and he knew I already knew the answer given my Daddy's background (and our e-mail correspondence I've posted previously).
Daddy taught me to pay cash for everything and to not live beyond my means. HOWEVER, cars and houses are NOT beyond our means when we buy within our means to pay them off. It's "managing your debt" that's the key to living within your means.
When I bought my first car Daddy and I looked at how much money I made and how much my living expenses were.
We considered the cost of insurance on a new car and the current interest rate for auto loans.
From there we figured out how much of a monthly payment I could afford and, with that information, how much car I could afford to buy (not much!!)
I went into the finance office armed with my negotiated price and knowing full well what my payment would be each month. When the finance officer tried to pull one over on me, I was able to fight back and get the proper price and finance charge.
I was in debt for my car, but it was a debt I could easily and comfortably pay each month. Same thing for my house. I drove the car for 220,000 miles and during that time saved up enough money to pay cash for my next car. My house has appreciated nearly $200K in value since I bought it.
TWIts will never experience this kind of financial freedom because TWI won't let them and because the TWIts continue to allow TWI to tell them what to do with their time, their money, their minds, their lives. It's so sad, really.
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djs
Hi Belle,
I didn't mean to imply that WC should live like paulpers, no one should live like that when they are doing the work of Jesus Christ. I think TWI should give them some type of incentive like other churches give their ministers.
One of the churches I grew up in gave their minister a house to live in, a newer model car was bought for them etc. If they are giving their lives for service - they should be taken care of by the abs - that's what it's for - right. Distibute to the necessaties of the saints, no lack etc.
DJS
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skyrider
Yeah.........my mileage DOES VARY.
First of all, "called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve" is......imo, a twi-fabricated concept. According to the Book of Acts and some epistles, many men carried out their ministries in one area. Of course, there were those who did itineraries and all.....but periods of 2-5 years was not uncommon.
Secondly, doctor w-w-wierwille spent 16 years in Van Wert, before relocating to the wierwille homestead till the day he died. Marindale never moved from 1976-2000......until he was ousted. And, if one looks at Christian church leaders.......long stints of pastoring churches is common.
Twi has such an OVERBLOATED, BIZZARE CULT SET-UP......that one must re-examine the hypocrisy from which these "debt statements" and such are originating. What?????.....some 300+ staff at twi's property in ohio to serve the mogs/mogettes their meals, do their laundry, mow the lawns, run their errands, clean their homes, etc.
Why doesn't twi DO THE WORD...???....and follow the patterns of the first century church? Why all the bureaucratic levels (like worldly organizations)...and NO full-time staff in dozens of states???
This whole twi "no debt policy" is LOADED and DRIPPING with hypocrisy.
They hire some 1200 corps full-time in 1995.....and tell them to abandon all past employment to be "available to serve." WITHIN WEEKS.....corps are being released (fired). Most here on GS have heard the details of this blundering fiasco by twi.
Twi plays favorites.......always have! The corps on the field are playing "jump the hoops that the region guy sets before you" or ELSE. If he doesn't like your personality, or your physical appearance, or your teaching style, or your corps reports, or whatever......YOU are likely to be on the chopping block. NO RECOURSE OF ACTION........because the cultish chain of command will ONLY support the region guy.
Yes.......in an environment of Christian living and leading.......a spiritually-even playing field......then, I would agree that the debt issue should have strong parameters.
But.......in twi......an ever-changing cultish commune of collaberating commanders......IT DOESN'T WORK and never will. Imo, many corps alumni stepped down willfully from their corps status because they didn't trust twi with their lives, their families, their future.
One ex-limb guy.....who STILL adheres to twi doctrine.....told me outright that, "He doesn't give a shix about twi's policies and wants twi to stay away from his shix." And, this guy, along with his wife and family are considered "followers of twi" and on their books as "faithful."
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justloafing
Exactly Belle. If you were still in. You would have to abundantly share at lest $20,000 when and if you sold the house. twi wants to push people so hard for their measly 10% - 20% of their paychecks. They never look at the big picture. No wonder the great forehead is not running a fortune 500 company but driving the big brown truck and sweating in a gym.
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markomalley
OK, well, I'm glad I placed that caveat there then
The apostles scattered to the four winds. Yes, there were some that did itineraries, a la Paul, but some left and didn't return. Andrew and Thomas come to mind right up front.Now as far as TWI's concept is concerned, I'm sure you have read enough of my posts to know that I have nothing, nothing positive to say about TWI. In fact, if you decided to re-read my post, I think you'd find a pretty good criticism of them (once again) screwing up a perfectly good biblical concept.
And then that advice wouldn't apply, would it. Although maybe it should. To use TWI as an example for ANYTHING (other than as an example of how NOT to do something) is a foolish gesture, imho.
To repeat what I said, To use TWI as an example for ANYTHING (other than as an example of how NOT to do something) is a foolish gesture, imho.OK
For some reason, I think that you believe that I am apologizing for TWI.
Oh, puhleese, not hardly.
Let's look again at what I did say and not what you (apparently) read:
You will please note that I said a no debt policy. Not TWI's no debt policy. This places it in the hypothetical (thus the use of the word a vice the)
Then you'll note I said, For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve.
You will note that I did not say the Way Corps. I did not say TWI staff. I was not even referring to TWI, at all. (please refer back to the discussion on a vice the)
Then, you'll see the following couple of paragraphs. That explains why I believe that a (vice the) debt policy is a good thing for the category of people about whom I was referring.
I further go on to say: But not everybody is called to live that full-time service position.
That further clarifies the condition I mentioned earlier (For those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve). I just said not everybody is called. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 'no debt' policy implemented by TWI apply to everybody? So if I made the statement not everybody is called, then how in the world could I possibly be talking about the abortion of TWI???
Then I cite some scripture. 1 Cor 7. (Wait a minute, 1 Cor 7 doesn't talk about debt, does it?)
Why did I cite that particular passage? Because it pointed out that some folks are called to be single and some to be married. I cited only three verses out of that section rather than the whole section. (the purpose of it being to identify that married folk and single folk would naturally have different agendas and that neither is bad)
Why did I cite that section? Because it clearly shows that married folks have an obligation to take care of their families. As I said earlier: The point is that some people are called to be single...and totally and completely dedicate themselves to the things of God. Some people are called to be married...in which case they need to concern themselves with taking care of their families...
So, with the distinction that the Apostle Paul mentions (unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord vice married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband), which one is the one who would be the better candidate for the class I was discussing (those who are called to be available at a moment's notice to relocate in order to serve)?
Obviously not.
Obviously the "no debt" policy implemented by TWI was counter to the purposes of the good of married folks (again, I am not speaking about credit card debt, I am primarily speaking about house mortgages, business loans, car loans, etc.). The debt policy implemented by them forced people to live in a lifestyle where they couldn't concern themselves with how to please his/her wife/husband.
So, are we clear on this? I was not saying that TWI's "no debt policy was good (and, frankly, there is no way that a reasonable person should have been able to accuse me of saying that if he simply read what I wrote dispassionately).
Let me try again, using different words, to re-state what I already said:
I believe that a no-debt policy (although badly mangled by TWI to the detriment and harm of their followers) has its place in a limited scope and application. Those people who feel called to remain unattached (i.e., single) and wish to dedicate their lives totally in service to God (i.e., foregoing a family or other earthly attachments) should be totally unencumbered by debt, even in this day and age. The rationale for such a statement on my part is that a mortgage, car payment, business loan, etc., would tend to tie a person down from the obligation that the person takes on to repay the debt.
I say single, echoing the concerns mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 7, because the moral commitment taken on through marriage and parenthood would put temporal obligations on a person that would reduce their ability to be responsive in the way discussed by the Apostle.
In addition, such a person should probably be very circumspect in the jobs he or she takes, as well. Business owners, managers, involvment in long-term projects, and so on, would also tend to incur a moral obligation to stay in a certain place for a significant period of time, thus minimizing that person's responsiveness. Thus, a person who felt so called would need to acknowledge internally that in dedicating his/her life in such a fashion, he/she would also voluntarily forego much material wealth that would otherwise be available to somebody who would be in a position to make a long-term business commitment.
Does this degrade the value of a person who has accepted either the obligations of a family or the obligations of responsibility for others (e.g., through work)? No. Not at all. Should a no-debt policy (e.g., mortgages, business loans) apply to those people who are taking on long-term responsibilities? No.
Is this in any way a defense of the TWI no-debt policy? No. What they did was a perversion of a perfectly good Biblical principle. Their policy was directly responsible for unnecessary poverty, unnecessary illness, and unnecessary stress.
There. Hopefully that communicated it a bit better.
Oh, btw, you know who I was referring to when talking about groups to whom a no-debt policy should apply? Groups like Franciscan Friars, Dominicans, members of Catholic Worker houses, and other forms of consecrated life. There is no way that those groups could deal with individual debts of their members....
Again, FWIW, IMHO, and YMMV
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skyrider
Thanks Mark.......had no idea you were referring to groups like Franciscan Friars, Dominicans, members of Catholic Worker houses.....etc.
Silly me......I was reading through this thread, TWI's "No Debt" Policy in the About The Way forum and the opening post with references to twi, BOD, innies, etc. and the posts that followed. When I came to your post, no specifics were introduced to cause me to think you were discussing something other than the aforementioned twi no-debt policy.
Thanks for clarifying.
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markomalley
Sorry, I was just trying (in my usual off-the-wall fashion) to show that once again, TWI screws up a perfectly good concept.
That's my usual line: that TWI perverted everything they touched.
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skyrider
Mark......I couldn't agree more.
On a further note, you bring alot of depth "to the table" here at Greasespot Cafe. I certainly appreciate that. Whereas, some of us......like me......spent 24 years in twi's cultish environment and experienced the warpness, exploitation, and devastation firsthand. It has taken me YEARS to de-waybrain.
Keep sharing.......just clarify it a little better.......for people like me.
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GrouchoMarxJr
My position on twi's "debt doctrine" is slightly different from what others may think about it...I firmly believe that whether or not a person is in debt is NONE OF TWI's BUSINESS!!! This is a personal thing and no church has the right to delve into this area of a person's life.
I left twi in 1987...had this doctrine been in force when I first got involved in 1975...well, I never would have got involved. The only time a twi "clergyman" ever asked me about my personal finances, (he asked me how much I made, as he wanted to calculate my tithe for me)...I squinted my eyes at him and told him it was none of his damn business..nobody ever asked me again.
Anyone who opens their personal financial status to a church (upon demand), is a gutless wonder to begin with...It's bad enough that the IRS sticks their nose into it.
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Belle
Thanks, Groucho. I haven't been called enough names today and was actually starting to feel good about myself.
Actually, I do wish I hadn't been a gutless wonder and I would LOVE for those who are still in to realize that they do not have to turn their lives over to TWI for them to tell them what to do with their time, minds, finances, things, families, etc.... So many, especially those who were raised in TWI, don't realize that other churches don't do this. Heck, they don't even think it's odd that TWI doesn't allow anyone to see the financial statements and books to know where their ABS goes.
It's just not as easy for some of us as it seems to have been for you.
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krys
For my personal self, I'd never go into debt for a car. However that doesn't mean I would condemn you for doing it.
One of the worst things twi did about this debt policy was require obedience before all the learning had been done. I believe that banning students from classes if they were in debt was stupid.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
belle
not called enough names today
ok
here is a few at you
loveing nice and friendly
hope that works for you
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diazbro
The Way's no debt policy was simply to keep people free of financial entaglements so they could be highly mobile and ready for relocation at a moment's notice. They also encouraged a "full house" living arrangement to keep people's minds on TWI and its priorities. I was told to take forms of employment that weren't demanding or would require lots of overtime since I needed to concern myself with "the things of the ministry". Additionally, people were discouraged from going to college (I certainly was and thank God I didn't listen to them) since such a commitment would inhibit ones' ability to participate in WOW and Corps programs. Sure, they had some form of college outreach but anyone who was serious about academics didnt' have time to recruit for TWI and hawk PFAL. I view all way policies as methods to keep people available for relocation and ready for marching orders. They keep you busy with twigs, classes, family nights, sunday night tape listening, supporting classes, financial record keeping to the extent that you marginalize yourself from your friends, family, and even your job. After that, all you have left is TWI which is what they want.
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markomalley
True enough!
And the issue applies doubly to those who had families (as in wives/husbands and kids {who weren't aborted per their command}) -- to require this form of discipline of EVERYBODY, regardless of their existing moral commitments, is absolutely
A PERVERSION of Christianity!
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Galen
We have discussed this many times previously.
I do agree that people should either stay out of debt [whenever possible], or they should seriously consider and be very careful each time they get into debt.
My wife and I were active in TWI for 19 and 18 years respectively. We ran twig fellowships in each area that we were stationed in, and I led fellowships on each submarine that I lived on-board. We did have disagreements with WC leadership, almost everytime that we encountered them. However our mortgage debt was never a source of any of this disagreement.
In California we owned a Multi-Family property and we leased homes out to members of our fellowship. We bought the property on a mortgage, and lived there in one of the houses ourselves, while running a fellowship and we made housing available to TWI followers. We ran PFAL classes, and were given much grief over running PFAL classes, as we were not WC and had to 'beg' for each PFAL beta tape, each time for each session.
In Scotland, we owned a Multi-Family building, and we leased apartments to fellow sailors and ran a Twig out of our apartment. We ran PFAL classes while living there, and we had a wonderful fellowship with believers who lived in our building. The only real problem that we had with WC was each time we had to get a PFAL class together. Not getting new students, but rather borrowing the tapes. No WC ever asked, or said anything about how we had purchased the building, or whether we had bought it with a mortgage.
In Connecticut, we bought a Multi-family building with a mortgage and we ran another Twig. We ran PFAL classes, and we offered apartments to the believers in the area, whenever we had an empty unit. We also had boarders living with us. Over the years we were there, we did have 'run-in's with WC. At one point the Limb Leader encouraged me to continue performing weddings for the believers in our twig, but when a new WC couple was brought in to to be Limb Coordinators, they did have an issue with weddings that I had been doing. Eventually I was thrown 'out' for serving to the needs of the believers in our twig. The WC limb leaders never said a word about us having a mortgage, and nothing about us having boarders, or renting apartments to believers.
In Washington, we bought another building and ran a twig in our home, and on the boat I was stationed on. We again had boarders living with us and ran PFAL classes. No WC ever said anything to us about having a mortgage, or how we had bought our home. Eventually we were thrown 'out' again. Not due to the weddings that I was performing, but this time, it was due to a fellow believer, who was doing some painting for us, and he searched through our closets to find 'forbidden' books. A book written by Rev. Cummins and for owning this book, we were thrown 'out' once again. In Washington, we were never approached by any WC on the topic of our mortgage.
:)
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dmiller
And speaking of (cough!!!) DEBT ---
WHAT ABOUT THE 15 (PLUS) % DEBT IMPOSED BY TWI???
That debt is more restrictive than most.
Amen. B)
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WordWolf
Don't forget how the "college" rule changed suddenly when bot's teenagers were ready
to start college-then "no college" became an "old wineskin"...
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dmiller
Hmmmmmmmmmm.
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lindyhopper
Yeah that really sucked.
I went in to college when it was still ok to take out school loans. Then that changed and I was questioned regularly why I had loans for school. Hadn't I heard all those teachings? Unfortunately I didn't have all that ABS to pay for MY schooling. I couldn't afford it, even with my 11K/yr in scholarships and grants. I was going to one of the best art schools in the country and doing really well there, but quit after my second year for fear of what all that debt might do to me spiritually. $*@!E!
But of course if I hadn't of left at the time many things would have changed and I'm happy as I am now and all that. So even though it still *%^#*es me off, I guess I can't complain.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i wonder what leader sh##t would have done to me if they had learned that i borrowed 2 grand $$$$$ for me and my ex to go to the ac at gunnison!! frig them i wanted to do it and i did
now in a way i am glad i did but wish i hadn't wasted the $$ 
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diazbro
yes its interesting. I know of many people who borrowed money to pay for PFAL and other classes. And they were open about it and the area leaders would say positive things like "now thats believing". Anything to get you to take classes or buy books of course. But isn't borrowing money placing yourself in debt ? Why didn't they complain about people who borrowed cash to take the class ? Debt is debt even if its $40 or $400,000 so they were being hypocritical. What a shocker !
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