Ex I did not miss his point but you are right I did dismiss it do to the fact that it is not sound thinking. As I said,and no one can so far explain Why do Christians in churches who for years prayed and received answers to prayer now feel the need to raise their hands, What changed? Those who would never have thought to do such a thing before now do. I would say it is because of learned response! They prayed from the heart for years so why is something else now needed? It is not, the difference is someone told them or led them by example that it was now socially acceptable to do these things if fact it is encouraged so they do. That hardly constitutes a bodily inspired action. If we are excepting all from the heart actions fine but that as you know is not the case. As I said I doubt a foot in the air or fingers waving in the ears would be acceptable which is the point only certain approved as socially acceptable actions are permitted which tells me that it is not a inspired action but a approved response.
As I said before I don't think one could say there was anything intrinsically wrong with this practice, but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do. It's a free country people can do what they want. I just hope that they remember to be as excepting as they want me to be when I do my thing in their meetings...
You can do what you want when you pray you don't need my permission one way or the other but this is a discussion on the subject and I still can't think that regarding prayer Jesus would have not somewhere at least mentioned this important action.
White Dove..things change and move forward. The prayers remain the same but the style can vary, just like the music style. We don't need to continue singing hymns that were sung in 1887 for example.
I think the point you make is valid as is Ex10's and Allan's.
Jesus didn't say that it was NECESSARY to raise hands when praying - but neither did he say it was wrong. There are Chirstians out there that really look at youlike you're a weirdo if you don't raise hands, genuflect and get all emotional. I went to a church like taht for a couple of years - never felt really comfortable with the outward stuff - but the teaching was great and that's what mattered - the main problem was it was just too far. I did see how after a while the main thing could easily become the emotion - in a sense it felt like it was possible to weigh the spritual experience by the emotion of the service. That I do not feel right about.
But there are thos who can raise their hands and they do it out of some deep need to do so. As long as they dont' tell me I HAVE to do it - well vive la difference!
Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything -
We share some of the same concerns about emotional experiences. For the record I'll say it again I never said it was wrong nor did I say Jesus said or implied it was . I said it was extraneous. You can read my earlier posts as to why that is. My point was and is WHY DO SOMETHING THAT HAS NO SCRIPTURAL URGENCY TO DO? WHAT IS THE POINT IN DOING THINGS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF DOING SOMETHING THAT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE PRAYER OR ITS OUTCOME. AND IF WE ARE GOING TO DO THESE THINGS WHO PREY TELL GETS TO DECIDE HOW FAR WE WILL GO IN OUR QUEST FOR EMOTION? Mainly I am speaking in regard to the church what people do in their own private prayer life is their business.
QUOTE
Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything -
I have considered that fact as I said before I am not convinced that it is literal and not figurative as in Timothy. And if it was literal it would not be the first time Hebrews adopted pagan ideas. I'm not sure that Jesus did not address this in scripture. It is possible that part of being seen is waving your hands about in which case he was quite clear as to not praying that way.
Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
As an example perhaps this is how God see's it. If a child always brought his blanket with him when he asked for something from you. It would not make a difference in your response to them. In turn it would not effect your decision either it would be neutral, extraneous. It is not wrong but at some point say age 45 you will look pretty stupid with your blanket talking to your parents. As I said several times there is no wrong in it but what is the point? From the start man has invented ideas that he thinks are needed to be close to God. Like a kid with their blanket there is no wrong or right in it so like a parent He just accepts it because He loves us. I wonder though if at some point He does not wonder why we have not moved beyond the blanket stage. Even if the records in the Old Testament were literal with the coming of the Christ administration we have a definite change in how the church functions. With something as important as prayer I simply can't believe that Jesus would have not addressed this if it was of such importance . And why is it that just in the last few years this has become such a big thing if it is so important to prayer?
However, there are a number of differn't emotive issues when praying, praying in earnest, lifting up his eyes to heaven etcc..I doubt seriously that Jesus just sat there and mechanically rattled off his prayers and worship.
This I agreed with I never said he did.
It should always be from the heart
Agreed
and I believe bodily reactions will often be a reaction to what is emanating from the heart.
I don't !!! And neither does scripture nor Jesus,Paul,Peter or any other in the context of extraneous things like hand raisin.. People have prayed just fine for years without moving and shaking.
To pray from the heart does not require bodily actions if someone chooses to do a bodily action it is generally a learned action. People who for years prayed in churches now just since the great P & W craze now think they need to do something else. So were their prayers not from the heart all those years? Bodily actions are controlled by the person. (one would hope unless there is a greater spiritual problem). We are free to move or not move. Show me one scriptural record in the New Testament where it was done or where it accompanied any prayer. That's why I reject it as unsound
White Dove..things change and move forward. The prayers remain the same but the style can vary, just like the music style. We don't need to continue singing hymns that were sung in 1887 for example.
So then you are saying that man changes and moves forward while the prayers stay the same. Another words man is updating the music style and actions as he sees fit to match the times. I agree
My point exactly man changed it. It is a learned response not a inspired one in most cases. Which makes it extraneous,not inspired action, but what someone deemed necessary to keep up with the times. Which by the way is not a scriptural mandate either.
The question in this thread is Whats the big Deal? And to me it is! very distracting in a public service. I don't do unnessary things as a whole. I don't fly east to New York first when going to California and I don't expend energy doing extraneous things when praying either. It does not do anything productive or in any way effect the prayer, except increase your chances for carpal tunnel. On the otherhand it is annoying and distracting for me when others are praying. Thats the big Deal to me.
Well...the wonderful thing is you can choose what type of church you want to go to !
On that we agree Allan for sure.
I just get the CD's and fast forward through to the teaching. Very efficient too by the time they are normally done with the pre-show I can be done with the teaching. At any rate at least I know what to do with the periodic bonus CD's of P & W now, rather than pitching them in the trash.
...very distracting in a public service... it is annoying and distracting for me when others are praying. Thats the big Deal to me.
Is it annoying and distracting because that's the way you were trained, or are used to? Or is there something intrinsicly or biblically wrong with it? If the former, which I suspect it is, then you should definitely stay away from that kind of stuff. B) (I guess either way, you should stay away :ph34r: )
One thing that a NBW (never been Way) friend of mine who had attended a few twigs once pointed out was the lack of emotion during the "worship manifestations". Many people speak in tongues with a bit more, let's say passion, then we did in TWI.
White Dove - I hear you. Apparently the big deal to others is that they get to move and raise holy hands - and they believe that they are backed up by scripture.
My husband is in your court - I'm somewhere in between. For me it is NOT a big deal at all. I would close my eyes during the worship service and pray so I didnt' see all the shennanigans that upset hubby so. OTHO - we no longet attend that church because hubby could not abide by that style of worship.
I firmly believe that it is more important THAT one worships God than how he or she worshops God. We used to have mnifestations all the time - I'm not sure that made the worhip experience better - but it was what we did and we were proud to be doing it..
You may not see the point - but there are others that do. ( I don't worship that way so I am not defending that style of worship.)
So, Dove, are you saying that all the other verses that have been mentioned on this thread (and there are many) are to be ingored because you have TWO that aren’t even explicit about forbidding the lifting of hands?
You are calling your fellow posters who do like to raise their hands hypocrites and saying that they do this to be seen of men? Come on! Get over yourself! People do this in a church where it’s an accepted practice and where they are not the only ones doing it. To do something like that during an inappropriate time or place is wrong, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
Ya know, they never celebrate birthdays in the Bible. It’s not even mentioned. Do you not celebrate birthdays for that reason? They never played football either – is football devilish and to be banned?
Your reasons have no validity, imo. There are too many scriptures about raising hands for it to be considered a bad thing – regardless of whether some are figurative – which you haven’t proven that any of them are.
Consider that in Mark 7:1-ff Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes because of their “religious” discipline, rules and regulations. He called them hypocrites and said that they honor with their lips but their heart is far from him. He said they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. If washing hands and cups and pots aren’t as important as the heart. He furthermore tells them that they’ve made the word of God of non effect through their tradition – ”and many such like things do ye.” v.13
John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
There are many things that aren’t recorded. Perhaps Jesus cut the rug in the temple and it’s just not recorded because it wasn’t necessary. The Bible does not cover every little detail of every minutiae.
It’s been discussed here at the café how churches were not meeting the needs of the people and that’s why so many found TWI refreshing in the beginning. But churches have grown and changed in many ways to better meet the needs of the people and some of that includes the freedom to express your heart, emotions and feelings during appropriate times of the service. They’ve gotten away from the stuffy, rigid, cold, unresponsive services that were so boring and stiffling to so many people. It very well could be that the churches, in their religiosity, eliminated this essential part of the services a long time ago and now it’s making a comeback. People are being empowered in their churches – they’re being taught Biblical research, they’re able to attend classes to learn as much as they desire – churches are actually teaching now – why is it so illogical that they would also be adding freedom of expression back into the services?
I also disagree that it’s a learned action. Have you ever seen kids playing or getting excited about something? Bodily responses to feelings are natural, basic unconscious reactions. I think, instead, that standing still, head down, not moving or showing any emotion is a learned action taught by staunchy, religious zealots who somehow got into their heads that worship can’t be fun, happy or joyful – it always has to be serious, dark, boring.
I just get the CD's and fast forward through to the teaching. Very efficient too by the time they are normally done with the pre-show I can be done with the teaching.
You really don’t like music, shows of emotion or anything along those lines, do you? Why waste time worshipping through music or anything else other than teaching. I’m sure any fellowships at your house must be oh so edifying.
Maybe you don’t like raising hands, maybe it doesn’t make sense to you – and that’s fine, but to say there’s no purpose in it and to speak belittling of those who do is arrogant, prideful and full of ignorance. Just because it’s not for you doesn’t mean there is no value in it for others. It is obviously a big deal to you for you to expend so much effort trying in vain to prove that it’s not right to do. If you don’t like it, fine – don’t visit places where it is practiced. You’ve made your point and some of us disagree with you – why keep pushing the issue and resort to calling people names and accusing them of unsound thinking? Gawd, I can't believe I'm standing up for Allan. :blink:
Is it annoying and distracting because that's the way you were trained, or are used to? Or is there something intrinsicly or biblically wrong with it?
Hey Oak I answered this in some earlier posts but no I don't think it is intrinsily wrong just extraneous.
Quote WhiteDove
I think Ex-10 covered it pretty well it would depend on the type of meeting you wanted to have . I would expect noise at a sports event or concert by nature they just are loud. I would not expect quiet repose at such a event. At a board meeting I would expect orderly discussion the same in a court of law. I can only speak for myself but to me a church meeting is a place to get away from the noise of everyday life a time of prayer and reflection. A time to commune with my heavenly Father to listen to his Words. I think there is much to be said to the old saying "The Greatest Cargo's of life come in over quiet seas." Put another way Be Still and know that I am God! I find that hard to do that when people are waving about and shouting. Maybe I could just close my eyes and block it out if I thought that there was some productive purpose for it but as I said ,so far I see none. So again I still am faced with the same question why do something extraneous that has no scriptural mandate? What's the point?
Well Belle as usual you have failed to read what I said.
So, Dove, are you saying that all the other verses that have been mentioned on this thread (and there are many) are to be ingored because you have TWO that aren’t even explicit about forbidding the lifting of hands?
First the most verses were posted by you. Mark covered that so I'll let it stand as is.
No! that is not what I said. I did say several times in fact that there were verses in the OLD Testament that mentioned lifting hands I also said first that I am not sure that those verses are literal and not figurative.
another words could be either way but for the sake of arguing this point (ie that because people did it that God commanded it) we will assume that it is literal as most have.
Yes there are Old Testament records of Hebrew people doing this (lifting up of hands)
Nowhere do I see where God asked or commanded that it be done. Nor do I see it mentioned in the New Testament as being done. (A fact that I find interesting in itself) conspicuously absent are Jesus and the apostles lifting hands up.
None the less just because people do something in the Bible does not confirm that it was God who told them to do it or that He wanted or commanded them to do so. As it is today people do things for various reasons some of which are good and bad.
Art shows some people raising their hands I don't disagree with you . Now the question is who are these people ? One could assume that it is David then again it could be razime the unbeliever that lives down the road. It's not a picture after all.
You are calling your fellow posters who do like to raise their hands hypocrites and saying that they do this to be seen of men? Come on! Get over yourself! People do this in a church where it’s an accepted practice and where they are not the only ones doing it. To do something like that during an inappropriate time or place is wrong, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
The quote you mentioned was a answer to a question by doojable that is the context don't try to use it outside of that to imply what I said . This thread is about all things to do with raisen hands both appropriate and in appropriate read the title. In regards to your charge please note the bolded words in my answer to her question they are conditional not absolute...
QUOTE doojable
Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything -
I have considered that fact as I said before I am not convinced that it is literal and not figurative as in Timothy. And if it was literal it would not be the first time Hebrews adopted pagan ideas. I'm not sure that Jesus did not address this in scripture. It is possible that part of being seen is waving your hands about in which case he was quite clear as to not praying that way.
Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Ya know, they never celebrate birthdays in the Bible. It’s not even mentioned. Do you not celebrate birthdays for that reason? They never played football either – is football devilish and to be banned?
This is so ridiculous I even cringe to answer but speaking of no validity... The Bible speaks about spiritual things not football or birthdays one with common sense would not expect it to contain such things. Hand lifting is however a subject that some align with worship a Bible concept so one would expect to find it in the scripture especially due to the fact that some think it is inspired. Another words the Bible addresses spiritual matters not senses matters your logic is flawed.
Your reasons have no validity, imo. There are too many scriptures about raising hands for it to be considered a bad thing – regardless of whether some are figurative – which you haven’t proven that any of them are.
Wrong again Belle several posters have agreed that the verse in Timothy is a figure of speech and you can look it up instead of assuming you know what you are talking about when you do not. There are also scriptures about worshiping Golden cows but that does not make it a good thing One must find out the truth in the scripture before we just google a quote ,that is what Mark nicely tried to tell you. As I said I know one is as to the others no one proved the were either so it's a toss up. Score 1 to 0 figurative if you really want to get to the nitty gritty.
Consider that in Mark 7:1-ff Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes because of their “religious” discipline, rules and regulations. He called them hypocrites and said that they honor with their lips but their heart is far from him. He said they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. If washing hands and cups and pots aren’t as important as the heart. He furthermore tells them that they’ve made the word of God of non effect through their tradition – ”and many such like things do ye.” v.13
and....
John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
There are many things that aren’t recorded. Perhaps Jesus cut the rug in the temple and it’s just not recorded because it wasn’t necessary. The Bible does not cover every little detail of every minutiae.
Except that his closest followers ask him to teach them how to pray do you really think Jesus or God for that matter would withhold such a thing if it were so important. We do also have records of prayer by Jesus and his followers so they are not missing from scripture by any means just none of them seem to mention hand waving. I find that odd. What is missing from scripture maybe some of that missing part you seem to cling to is any mention in the Christ or Grace administrations of Jesus or his disciples apostles or even the pig keeper waving hands when praying. Using your theory one could insert anything they wanted to prove in the Bible under the guise that it was done just not recorded. Fat Chance.....
It’s been discussed here at the café how churches were not meeting the needs of the people and that’s why so many found TWI refreshing in the beginning. But churches have grown and changed in many ways to better meet the needs of the people and some of that includes the freedom to express your heart, emotions and feelings during appropriate times of the service. They’ve gotten away from the stuffy, rigid, cold, unresponsive services that were so boring and stiffling to so many people. It very well could be that the churches, in their religiosity, eliminated this essential part of the services a long time ago and now it’s making a comeback. People are being empowered in their churches – they’re being taught Biblical research, they’re able to attend classes to learn as much as they desire – churches are actually teaching now – why is it so illogical that they would also be adding freedom of expression back into the services
Listen closely Belle I never said that churches could not do this I just said don't try to pass it off as biblical inspired action. Just say we like being emotional so we do it . That’s honest and fine if you like that sort of thing. Just don't try to twist some scriptural support for it. Heck people fly the bird all the time in traffic when cut off, it seems to be an emotion thing too but not scriptural. Perhaps I will try that next time and see how well my emotional choice is accepted in their meeting.......
I also disagree that it’s a learned action. Have you ever seen kids playing or getting excited about something? Bodily responses to feelings are natural, basic unconscious reactions. I think, instead, that standing still, head down, not moving or showing any emotion is a learned action taught by staunchy, religious zealots who somehow got into their heads that worship can’t be fun, happy or joyful – it always has to be serious, dark, boring.
Well churches that never did this sort of thing before now do ,and it directly is a result of Praise and Worship Music. why are not other bodily responses done it is always the ones that are learned ,approved. Watch a group sometime and when the hands start to moving.
I just get the CD's and fast forward through to the teaching. Very efficient too by the time they are normally done with the pre-show I can be done with the teaching.
You really don’t like music, shows of emotion or anything along those lines, do you? Why waste time worshipping through music or anything else other than teaching. I’m sure any fellowships at your house must be oh so edifying.
I like music just not a halftime sideshow. You would have to ask the people but apparently they keep coming back.
Maybe you don’t like raising hands, maybe it doesn’t make sense to you – and that’s fine, but to say there’s no purpose in it and to speak belittling of those who do is arrogant, prideful and full of ignorance. Just because it’s not for you doesn’t mean there is no value in it for others. It is obviously a big deal to you for you to expend so much effort trying in vain to prove that it’s not right to do. If you don’t like it, fine – don’t visit places where it is practiced. You’ve made your point and some of us disagree with you – why keep pushing the issue and resort to calling people names and accusing them of unsound thinking? Gawd, I can't believe I'm standing up for Allan.
Can you show me any purpose? It does not bring us closer to God scripture as noted before tells us we are as close as we can be. Prove that it does anything in regard to the prayer, that it changes the outcome one way or another ? No one else can, if not then it has no productive purpose. If it effects nothing it is extraneous to the action. The question still stands why expend the energy? Outside of a trance like emotional high I see no purpose. Do you have any that it performs some function?
And for the record I never called any one names I just said the thinking was unsound. By the way: Quote Belle Your reasons have no validity/ guess it is not name calling when you do it.
doojable Agreed and as I said its a free world people can do what they want but when someone asks What is the Big Deal I'm happy to share my opinion on it and what scripture records.
Well, you seem to be stuck on raising hands in prayer and I'm talking about during the music and, maybe, sometimes during prayer. The scriptures you're using are only regarding prayer and I don't think that's what Bliss's orginal questions were about.
Saying that your logic holds no merit is not calling you names. I was not calling you names, merely disagreeing with your logic and reasoning - which I still disagree with.
You were insinuating and by the example of the hypocrite praying for public adoration that people who pray with their hands up in the air are hypocrites and doing it for attention - that is namecalling, just a very subtle way of doing so. Any further discussion would just be circular reasoning and so I respectfully withdraw from the conversation.
You were insinuating and by the example of the hypocrite praying for public adoration that people who pray with their hands up in the air are hypocrites and doing it for attention - that is namecalling, just a very subtle way of doing so
No I was answering her question. Had I considered it? and I had and the way I consider it is with scripture and I think it is very possible that's why we don't see Jesus and Company doing it. Even if it is not the intent of the person it does attract attention. Perhaps that was in part Jesus' point don't attract attention/ be a distraction from God who is supposed to be the focal point. We don't do it when talking to each other why do we feel the need to when we address God?
We don't do it when talking to each other why do we feel the need to when we address God?
Maybe you don't. I do. I use my hands all the time when I'm talking. I don't when I'm praying, but I do bob my head, bounce on the balls of my feet, sway and whatnot during the musical part of the service and the people who do hold their arms in the air are a refreshing change from the cold, heartless worship required by TWI.
Maybe you've never heard all the jokes about Italians waving their arms all over the place when they talk. Maybe you've never heard the saying, "If you tied his hands behind his back, he couldn't talk."
People do use their hands when they talk....all the time. Again, though, I think what Bliss is talking about is not primarily the praying aspect of using your hands.
Of course people move their hands but not in the way they do in P & W . I don't wave my hand in the sky in a trancelike posture when talking to people. maybe you do.
There seems to be some confusion over what one should consider a "Holy Ghost" filled church to be. Some people believe a Holy Ghost filled church is packing a building full of gospel singers, raising 'holy hands' and having people shout GLORY HALLELUJIA! Some believe it is having an alter call, the laying on of hands and people fallin' down backwards getting slain in the spirit. Some people think a Holy Ghost filled church is someone yelling out AMEN! - Preach it Pastor! at every other sentence during the sermon. They believe it's anyone getting up at random and willy-nilly "speaking in tongues" to see who is the loudest most obnoxious speaker. They believe a Holy Ghost filled church is people laughing hysterically out loud for no reason (it would make more sense if someone actually told a good joke) getting up, jumping up and down, running up and down aisles, and practically slobbering all over everybody.
It's a wierd world out there - wierder than a 2 lb. elephant! What still goes on inside so many of the Christian churches in America today is sadly even stranger. I'd just as soon see an ant swallow a bale of hay and call it a "Holy Ghost" manifestation compared to the shennanigans I've seen go on inside the so-call church. I don't mean to come off sounding critical of the typical American Christian church. But the Holy Ghost is not about "whatever-it-is" people think happens with a bunch of individuals inside the church on a Sunday (or whatever day of the week they meet) that constitutes a church being a "Holy Ghost" filled church. No. It's what goes on with the individuals outside of the church during the week that really counts and really matters the most.
Have you ever run into some of those HOLY GHOST filled church people during the week? They certainly love to pass judgment on other people who are not like them. Frankly speaking, some of them can be just about the meanest, the rudest and the most critical and self-righteous bunch of snobs you would never, ever, want to meet in your life!!
What the Hey...thats FRRRREAKY..I just listened to the phrase "2lb Elephant" on a tape yesterday !!
'Burn the Chaff Sunday part 2' -LCM !!
White Dove..excellent points, each to their own style!
Belle..I thought I was alone in being the one to set you hyperventilating..White Dove was not insinuating nor accusing me or anyone else of ANYTHING.. LIGHTEN UP ! Try the 'blue one'.
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ex10
dove, i think allan makes a fabulous point, which you are either missing,.......or maybe dismissing.
Whatever. If you don't want to lift your hands when you pray, don't. If I want to, I will. Can we leave it at that? ;)
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WhiteDove
Ex I did not miss his point but you are right I did dismiss it do to the fact that it is not sound thinking. As I said,and no one can so far explain Why do Christians in churches who for years prayed and received answers to prayer now feel the need to raise their hands, What changed? Those who would never have thought to do such a thing before now do. I would say it is because of learned response! They prayed from the heart for years so why is something else now needed? It is not, the difference is someone told them or led them by example that it was now socially acceptable to do these things if fact it is encouraged so they do. That hardly constitutes a bodily inspired action. If we are excepting all from the heart actions fine but that as you know is not the case. As I said I doubt a foot in the air or fingers waving in the ears would be acceptable which is the point only certain approved as socially acceptable actions are permitted which tells me that it is not a inspired action but a approved response.
As I said before I don't think one could say there was anything intrinsically wrong with this practice, but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do. It's a free country people can do what they want. I just hope that they remember to be as excepting as they want me to be when I do my thing in their meetings...
You can do what you want when you pray you don't need my permission one way or the other but this is a discussion on the subject and I still can't think that regarding prayer Jesus would have not somewhere at least mentioned this important action.
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ex10
How is Allan's point "not sound thinking?"
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allan w.
White Dove..things change and move forward. The prayers remain the same but the style can vary, just like the music style. We don't need to continue singing hymns that were sung in 1887 for example.
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doojable
White Dove,
I think the point you make is valid as is Ex10's and Allan's.
Jesus didn't say that it was NECESSARY to raise hands when praying - but neither did he say it was wrong. There are Chirstians out there that really look at youlike you're a weirdo if you don't raise hands, genuflect and get all emotional. I went to a church like taht for a couple of years - never felt really comfortable with the outward stuff - but the teaching was great and that's what mattered - the main problem was it was just too far. I did see how after a while the main thing could easily become the emotion - in a sense it felt like it was possible to weigh the spritual experience by the emotion of the service. That I do not feel right about.
But there are thos who can raise their hands and they do it out of some deep need to do so. As long as they dont' tell me I HAVE to do it - well vive la difference!
Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything -
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WhiteDove
We share some of the same concerns about emotional experiences. For the record I'll say it again I never said it was wrong nor did I say Jesus said or implied it was . I said it was extraneous. You can read my earlier posts as to why that is. My point was and is WHY DO SOMETHING THAT HAS NO SCRIPTURAL URGENCY TO DO? WHAT IS THE POINT IN DOING THINGS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF DOING SOMETHING THAT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE PRAYER OR ITS OUTCOME. AND IF WE ARE GOING TO DO THESE THINGS WHO PREY TELL GETS TO DECIDE HOW FAR WE WILL GO IN OUR QUEST FOR EMOTION? Mainly I am speaking in regard to the church what people do in their own private prayer life is their business.
QUOTE
Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything -
I have considered that fact as I said before I am not convinced that it is literal and not figurative as in Timothy. And if it was literal it would not be the first time Hebrews adopted pagan ideas. I'm not sure that Jesus did not address this in scripture. It is possible that part of being seen is waving your hands about in which case he was quite clear as to not praying that way.
Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
As an example perhaps this is how God see's it. If a child always brought his blanket with him when he asked for something from you. It would not make a difference in your response to them. In turn it would not effect your decision either it would be neutral, extraneous. It is not wrong but at some point say age 45 you will look pretty stupid with your blanket talking to your parents. As I said several times there is no wrong in it but what is the point? From the start man has invented ideas that he thinks are needed to be close to God. Like a kid with their blanket there is no wrong or right in it so like a parent He just accepts it because He loves us. I wonder though if at some point He does not wonder why we have not moved beyond the blanket stage. Even if the records in the Old Testament were literal with the coming of the Christ administration we have a definite change in how the church functions. With something as important as prayer I simply can't believe that Jesus would have not addressed this if it was of such importance . And why is it that just in the last few years this has become such a big thing if it is so important to prayer?
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WhiteDove
I'll break it down
However, there are a number of differn't emotive issues when praying, praying in earnest, lifting up his eyes to heaven etcc..I doubt seriously that Jesus just sat there and mechanically rattled off his prayers and worship.
This I agreed with I never said he did.
It should always be from the heart
Agreed
and I believe bodily reactions will often be a reaction to what is emanating from the heart.
I don't !!! And neither does scripture nor Jesus,Paul,Peter or any other in the context of extraneous things like hand raisin.. People have prayed just fine for years without moving and shaking.
To pray from the heart does not require bodily actions if someone chooses to do a bodily action it is generally a learned action. People who for years prayed in churches now just since the great P & W craze now think they need to do something else. So were their prayers not from the heart all those years? Bodily actions are controlled by the person. (one would hope unless there is a greater spiritual problem). We are free to move or not move. Show me one scriptural record in the New Testament where it was done or where it accompanied any prayer. That's why I reject it as unsound
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WhiteDove
So then you are saying that man changes and moves forward while the prayers stay the same. Another words man is updating the music style and actions as he sees fit to match the times. I agree
My point exactly man changed it. It is a learned response not a inspired one in most cases. Which makes it extraneous,not inspired action, but what someone deemed necessary to keep up with the times. Which by the way is not a scriptural mandate either.
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doojable
Dove - just for the record - I usually see raising of hands in worship - and yes I do think that it is a trend - maybe a backlash to the
nonemotional trend before it.
Actually I see very little of it now as we attend a Baptist church...
And wasn't it David who got chided for "dancing naked before the Lord."?
My only point is that the feeling must be genuine. It is not a requirement. I think we all do lots of things that aren't necessary -
Now the uncontrollable actions - the "taken over by the spirit actions" those are a different story and not a good story in my book...
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WhiteDove
Well Doojable
The question in this thread is Whats the big Deal? And to me it is! very distracting in a public service. I don't do unnessary things as a whole. I don't fly east to New York first when going to California and I don't expend energy doing extraneous things when praying either. It does not do anything productive or in any way effect the prayer, except increase your chances for carpal tunnel. On the otherhand it is annoying and distracting for me when others are praying. Thats the big Deal to me.
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allan w.
Well...the wonderful thing is you can choose what type of church you want to go to !
For me it's great to hear great Word after hearing great 'worship' music !!
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WhiteDove
On that we agree Allan for sure.
I just get the CD's and fast forward through to the teaching. Very efficient too by the time they are normally done with the pre-show I can be done with the teaching. At any rate at least I know what to do with the periodic bonus CD's of P & W now, rather than pitching them in the trash.
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Oakspear
One thing that a NBW (never been Way) friend of mine who had attended a few twigs once pointed out was the lack of emotion during the "worship manifestations". Many people speak in tongues with a bit more, let's say passion, then we did in TWI.
Diifferent strokes for different folks
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doojable
White Dove - I hear you. Apparently the big deal to others is that they get to move and raise holy hands - and they believe that they are backed up by scripture.
My husband is in your court - I'm somewhere in between. For me it is NOT a big deal at all. I would close my eyes during the worship service and pray so I didnt' see all the shennanigans that upset hubby so. OTHO - we no longet attend that church because hubby could not abide by that style of worship.
I firmly believe that it is more important THAT one worships God than how he or she worshops God. We used to have mnifestations all the time - I'm not sure that made the worhip experience better - but it was what we did and we were proud to be doing it..
You may not see the point - but there are others that do. ( I don't worship that way so I am not defending that style of worship.)
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Belle
So, Dove, are you saying that all the other verses that have been mentioned on this thread (and there are many) are to be ingored because you have TWO that aren’t even explicit about forbidding the lifting of hands?
You are calling your fellow posters who do like to raise their hands hypocrites and saying that they do this to be seen of men? Come on! Get over yourself! People do this in a church where it’s an accepted practice and where they are not the only ones doing it. To do something like that during an inappropriate time or place is wrong, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
Ya know, they never celebrate birthdays in the Bible. It’s not even mentioned. Do you not celebrate birthdays for that reason? They never played football either – is football devilish and to be banned?
Your reasons have no validity, imo. There are too many scriptures about raising hands for it to be considered a bad thing – regardless of whether some are figurative – which you haven’t proven that any of them are.
Consider that in Mark 7:1-ff Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes because of their “religious” discipline, rules and regulations. He called them hypocrites and said that they honor with their lips but their heart is far from him. He said they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. If washing hands and cups and pots aren’t as important as the heart. He furthermore tells them that they’ve made the word of God of non effect through their tradition – ”and many such like things do ye.” v.13
John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
There are many things that aren’t recorded. Perhaps Jesus cut the rug in the temple and it’s just not recorded because it wasn’t necessary. The Bible does not cover every little detail of every minutiae.
It’s been discussed here at the café how churches were not meeting the needs of the people and that’s why so many found TWI refreshing in the beginning. But churches have grown and changed in many ways to better meet the needs of the people and some of that includes the freedom to express your heart, emotions and feelings during appropriate times of the service. They’ve gotten away from the stuffy, rigid, cold, unresponsive services that were so boring and stiffling to so many people. It very well could be that the churches, in their religiosity, eliminated this essential part of the services a long time ago and now it’s making a comeback. People are being empowered in their churches – they’re being taught Biblical research, they’re able to attend classes to learn as much as they desire – churches are actually teaching now – why is it so illogical that they would also be adding freedom of expression back into the services?
I also disagree that it’s a learned action. Have you ever seen kids playing or getting excited about something? Bodily responses to feelings are natural, basic unconscious reactions. I think, instead, that standing still, head down, not moving or showing any emotion is a learned action taught by staunchy, religious zealots who somehow got into their heads that worship can’t be fun, happy or joyful – it always has to be serious, dark, boring.
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WhiteDove
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WhiteDove
Well Belle as usual you have failed to read what I said.
So, Dove, are you saying that all the other verses that have been mentioned on this thread (and there are many) are to be ingored because you have TWO that aren’t even explicit about forbidding the lifting of hands?
First the most verses were posted by you. Mark covered that so I'll let it stand as is.
No! that is not what I said. I did say several times in fact that there were verses in the OLD Testament that mentioned lifting hands I also said first that I am not sure that those verses are literal and not figurative.
another words could be either way but for the sake of arguing this point (ie that because people did it that God commanded it) we will assume that it is literal as most have.
Yes there are Old Testament records of Hebrew people doing this (lifting up of hands)
Nowhere do I see where God asked or commanded that it be done. Nor do I see it mentioned in the New Testament as being done. (A fact that I find interesting in itself) conspicuously absent are Jesus and the apostles lifting hands up.
None the less just because people do something in the Bible does not confirm that it was God who told them to do it or that He wanted or commanded them to do so. As it is today people do things for various reasons some of which are good and bad.
Art shows some people raising their hands I don't disagree with you . Now the question is who are these people ? One could assume that it is David then again it could be razime the unbeliever that lives down the road. It's not a picture after all.
You are calling your fellow posters who do like to raise their hands hypocrites and saying that they do this to be seen of men? Come on! Get over yourself! People do this in a church where it’s an accepted practice and where they are not the only ones doing it. To do something like that during an inappropriate time or place is wrong, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
The quote you mentioned was a answer to a question by doojable that is the context don't try to use it outside of that to imply what I said . This thread is about all things to do with raisen hands both appropriate and in appropriate read the title. In regards to your charge please note the bolded words in my answer to her question they are conditional not absolute...
QUOTE doojable
Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything -
I have considered that fact as I said before I am not convinced that it is literal and not figurative as in Timothy. And if it was literal it would not be the first time Hebrews adopted pagan ideas. I'm not sure that Jesus did not address this in scripture. It is possible that part of being seen is waving your hands about in which case he was quite clear as to not praying that way.
Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Ya know, they never celebrate birthdays in the Bible. It’s not even mentioned. Do you not celebrate birthdays for that reason? They never played football either – is football devilish and to be banned?
This is so ridiculous I even cringe to answer but speaking of no validity... The Bible speaks about spiritual things not football or birthdays one with common sense would not expect it to contain such things. Hand lifting is however a subject that some align with worship a Bible concept so one would expect to find it in the scripture especially due to the fact that some think it is inspired. Another words the Bible addresses spiritual matters not senses matters your logic is flawed.
Your reasons have no validity, imo. There are too many scriptures about raising hands for it to be considered a bad thing – regardless of whether some are figurative – which you haven’t proven that any of them are.
Wrong again Belle several posters have agreed that the verse in Timothy is a figure of speech and you can look it up instead of assuming you know what you are talking about when you do not. There are also scriptures about worshiping Golden cows but that does not make it a good thing One must find out the truth in the scripture before we just google a quote ,that is what Mark nicely tried to tell you. As I said I know one is as to the others no one proved the were either so it's a toss up. Score 1 to 0 figurative if you really want to get to the nitty gritty.
Consider that in Mark 7:1-ff Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes because of their “religious” discipline, rules and regulations. He called them hypocrites and said that they honor with their lips but their heart is far from him. He said they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. If washing hands and cups and pots aren’t as important as the heart. He furthermore tells them that they’ve made the word of God of non effect through their tradition – ”and many such like things do ye.” v.13
and....
John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
There are many things that aren’t recorded. Perhaps Jesus cut the rug in the temple and it’s just not recorded because it wasn’t necessary. The Bible does not cover every little detail of every minutiae.
Except that his closest followers ask him to teach them how to pray do you really think Jesus or God for that matter would withhold such a thing if it were so important. We do also have records of prayer by Jesus and his followers so they are not missing from scripture by any means just none of them seem to mention hand waving. I find that odd. What is missing from scripture maybe some of that missing part you seem to cling to is any mention in the Christ or Grace administrations of Jesus or his disciples apostles or even the pig keeper waving hands when praying. Using your theory one could insert anything they wanted to prove in the Bible under the guise that it was done just not recorded. Fat Chance.....
It’s been discussed here at the café how churches were not meeting the needs of the people and that’s why so many found TWI refreshing in the beginning. But churches have grown and changed in many ways to better meet the needs of the people and some of that includes the freedom to express your heart, emotions and feelings during appropriate times of the service. They’ve gotten away from the stuffy, rigid, cold, unresponsive services that were so boring and stiffling to so many people. It very well could be that the churches, in their religiosity, eliminated this essential part of the services a long time ago and now it’s making a comeback. People are being empowered in their churches – they’re being taught Biblical research, they’re able to attend classes to learn as much as they desire – churches are actually teaching now – why is it so illogical that they would also be adding freedom of expression back into the services
Listen closely Belle I never said that churches could not do this I just said don't try to pass it off as biblical inspired action. Just say we like being emotional so we do it . That’s honest and fine if you like that sort of thing. Just don't try to twist some scriptural support for it. Heck people fly the bird all the time in traffic when cut off, it seems to be an emotion thing too but not scriptural. Perhaps I will try that next time and see how well my emotional choice is accepted in their meeting.......
I also disagree that it’s a learned action. Have you ever seen kids playing or getting excited about something? Bodily responses to feelings are natural, basic unconscious reactions. I think, instead, that standing still, head down, not moving or showing any emotion is a learned action taught by staunchy, religious zealots who somehow got into their heads that worship can’t be fun, happy or joyful – it always has to be serious, dark, boring.
Well churches that never did this sort of thing before now do ,and it directly is a result of Praise and Worship Music. why are not other bodily responses done it is always the ones that are learned ,approved. Watch a group sometime and when the hands start to moving.
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WhiteDove
doojable Agreed and as I said its a free world people can do what they want but when someone asks What is the Big Deal I'm happy to share my opinion on it and what scripture records.
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Belle
Well, you seem to be stuck on raising hands in prayer and I'm talking about during the music and, maybe, sometimes during prayer. The scriptures you're using are only regarding prayer and I don't think that's what Bliss's orginal questions were about.
Saying that your logic holds no merit is not calling you names. I was not calling you names, merely disagreeing with your logic and reasoning - which I still disagree with.
You were insinuating and by the example of the hypocrite praying for public adoration that people who pray with their hands up in the air are hypocrites and doing it for attention - that is namecalling, just a very subtle way of doing so. Any further discussion would just be circular reasoning and so I respectfully withdraw from the conversation.
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WhiteDove
No I was answering her question. Had I considered it? and I had and the way I consider it is with scripture and I think it is very possible that's why we don't see Jesus and Company doing it. Even if it is not the intent of the person it does attract attention. Perhaps that was in part Jesus' point don't attract attention/ be a distraction from God who is supposed to be the focal point. We don't do it when talking to each other why do we feel the need to when we address God?
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Belle
Maybe you don't. I do. I use my hands all the time when I'm talking. I don't when I'm praying, but I do bob my head, bounce on the balls of my feet, sway and whatnot during the musical part of the service and the people who do hold their arms in the air are a refreshing change from the cold, heartless worship required by TWI.
Maybe you've never heard all the jokes about Italians waving their arms all over the place when they talk. Maybe you've never heard the saying, "If you tied his hands behind his back, he couldn't talk."
People do use their hands when they talk....all the time. Again, though, I think what Bliss is talking about is not primarily the praying aspect of using your hands.
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WhiteDove
Of course people move their hands but not in the way they do in P & W . I don't wave my hand in the sky in a trancelike posture when talking to people. maybe you do.
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What The Hey
There seems to be some confusion over what one should consider a "Holy Ghost" filled church to be. Some people believe a Holy Ghost filled church is packing a building full of gospel singers, raising 'holy hands' and having people shout GLORY HALLELUJIA! Some believe it is having an alter call, the laying on of hands and people fallin' down backwards getting slain in the spirit. Some people think a Holy Ghost filled church is someone yelling out AMEN! - Preach it Pastor! at every other sentence during the sermon. They believe it's anyone getting up at random and willy-nilly "speaking in tongues" to see who is the loudest most obnoxious speaker. They believe a Holy Ghost filled church is people laughing hysterically out loud for no reason (it would make more sense if someone actually told a good joke) getting up, jumping up and down, running up and down aisles, and practically slobbering all over everybody.
It's a wierd world out there - wierder than a 2 lb. elephant! What still goes on inside so many of the Christian churches in America today is sadly even stranger. I'd just as soon see an ant swallow a bale of hay and call it a "Holy Ghost" manifestation compared to the shennanigans I've seen go on inside the so-call church. I don't mean to come off sounding critical of the typical American Christian church. But the Holy Ghost is not about "whatever-it-is" people think happens with a bunch of individuals inside the church on a Sunday (or whatever day of the week they meet) that constitutes a church being a "Holy Ghost" filled church. No. It's what goes on with the individuals outside of the church during the week that really counts and really matters the most.
Have you ever run into some of those HOLY GHOST filled church people during the week? They certainly love to pass judgment on other people who are not like them. Frankly speaking, some of them can be just about the meanest, the rudest and the most critical and self-righteous bunch of snobs you would never, ever, want to meet in your life!!
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allan w.
What the Hey...thats FRRRREAKY..I just listened to the phrase "2lb Elephant" on a tape yesterday !!
'Burn the Chaff Sunday part 2' -LCM !!
White Dove..excellent points, each to their own style!
Belle..I thought I was alone in being the one to set you hyperventilating..White Dove was not insinuating nor accusing me or anyone else of ANYTHING.. LIGHTEN UP ! Try the 'blue one'.
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