Cool stuff, guy and gals, I think I might even be getting inspired to dust off my concordance and expository dictionary. I'm kidding, but not really.............
Now ya'll've (southern word, sorry) got me really wondering what to do with myself when I'm at church and just feel like yellin "Yay, God. You rock!"
I get the "worship being serious business" stuff, and being mindful of where ya are, what you're doing, who else is there, is my slip showing?, if it is, will it freak anybody out? etc. being respectful and considerate.
So my next question is: What do ya do with yourself when ya just want to jump up and down and yell, "Go God! Give me a G.........." etc.
Is there any place for that in a "decent and in order" meeting?
ooooh, it just occurred to me maybe you're not sposed to feel that way in church..........
Absolutely ex-10, it makes for exciting services and an exciting atmosphere (and the meeting can still be deemed decent and in order) ! I think people get mixed up with 'prim and proper' !!
I think Ex-10 covered it pretty well it would depend on the type of meeting you wanted to have . I would expect noise at a sports event or concert by nature they just are loud. I would not expect quiet repose at such a event. At a board meeting I would expect orderly discussion the same in a court of law. I can only speak for myself but to me a church meeting is a place to get away from the noise of everyday life a time of prayer and reflection. A time to commune with my heavenly Father to listen to his Words. I think there is much to be said to the old saying "The Greatest Cargo's of life come in over quiet seas." Put another way Be Still and know that I am God! I find that hard to do that when people are waving about and shouting. Maybe I could just close my eyes and block it out if I thought that there was some productive purpose for it but as I said ,so far I see none. So again I still am faced with the same question why do something extraneous that has no scriptural mandate? What's the point?
Okay, I’m just starting to look at this, so this is by no means comprehensive, but it does appear to me that the raising of hands is/was fairly common in worship and praise and even in the temple and during worship – Dancing, too!. It appears to even have been commanded by God, if one believes that the Bible is the word of God.
I think that to forbid or to discourage/demean or otherwise scorn people who do like to raise their hands during the music part of a service is wrong. To say that it is wrong for them to be raising their hands has no foundation that I can find so far in the Bible. It would be much like the Jehovah'’ Witnesses saying that they don't celebrate birthdays because it’s not celebrated in the Bible.
TWI uses the fact that the tithe is not “officially” recanted in the grace administration as justification for requiring the tithe of their people. One can also say that the raising of hands in praise, worship and glory to God is also not recanted in the NT anywhere, therefore, it is still a commandment and desire of God’s that we do raise our hands in praise to him.
Just my two cents worth, ymmv.
1Ti 2:8 - I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Psa 28:2 - Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.
Ecc 3:4 - A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Jer 31:13 - Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Psa 30:11 - Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
Psa 63:3-4 - Because thy lovingkindness [is] better than life, my lips shall praise thee.
Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.
Neh 8:6 - And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with [their] faces to the ground.
Neh 8:11-12 - So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day [is] holy; neither be ye grieved.
And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
Luk 19:39-40 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Act 3:8 - And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Galatians 2 – is all about Paul confronting Peter on trying to make the Gentiles live according to the law of the Jews.
Psa 141:2 - Let my prayer be set forth before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the evening sacrifice.
Lam 3:41 - Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens.
Psa 134:2 - Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
Gen 14:22 - And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Rev 10:5 - And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Psa 68:31 - Princes shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands unto God.
Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
Isa 1:15 - And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
2Ki 11:12 - And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and [gave him] the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king. (This is in the temple)
Psa 47:1 - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.]] O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
Psa 149:3 - Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
Psa 150:4 - Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Ezr 3:10-13 - And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because [he is] good, for his mercy [endureth] for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, [who were] ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy:
So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people: for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off.
2Ch 29:27, 28 - And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel.
And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished.
Isa 24:8 - The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
Psa 30:4 - Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psa 33:1-ff - Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: [for] praise is comely for the upright.
Jam 5:13 - Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
If I can give you a suggestion, you may wish to re-think the methodology you use to study the Bible. Doing the concordance-level word study is a very, very dangerous method for discovering the 'mind of Christ' on a given subject.
Let me take one verse and talk about it a bit:
Jer 31:13 - Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
To really understand this verse, you simply must go back to Jer 29 and read the entire context of that particular prophecy. He is giving a prophecy to the remnant of Israel, exiled in Babylon. He is telling them to settle down and to build houses, raise families, and settle in for the long haul. He tells the exiles that those who stayed in Jerusalem, rather than being exiled, will be the subject of plagues. And then after 70 years exile, He will gather His people together again and return them. Dancing, drinking, eating, all sorts of partying will go on.
The point is that, from looking at the full context, it becomes apparent that this is not talking about dancing in the Temple, nor is this any kind of a commandment, rather this is a statement about the celebrations that will happen when the sons of Jacob are restored to their land after their long exile.
Likewise, the first verse you quoted (1 Ti 2:8) is, when you read the context (start at 1 Tim 1:18), shows that Paul is exhorting Timothy, Bishop of Ephesus, to be careful that his flock doesn't slip into heresy, like the examples of Hymenaeus and Alexander. He first tells Timothy to have them offer prayers for all men, including Kings and Rulers (who weren't Christian), so that they could live a peaceable life. Then he calls on men to pray together without bickering and quarelling and for women to dress modestly and to learn in silence (there are other sections talking about backbiting, rumormongering, etc.). And yada, yada. As you can see from the pictures I posted earlier, prayer, supplication, pleading was commonly done using the Orans posture. The point of this section is not to authorize the raising of hands, but rather to be peaceable and in order (cf 1 Cor 11-14).
The point I'm getting at is not to criticize your searching the scriptures, but the point is that understanding the context of what's written and looking for the correct instructional passages is far more beneficial than doing a broad-brush word study without understanding the context within which a given verse appears. Because, as you've seen elsewhere, a verse may appear to say one thing when taken out of it's context, but may say something else completely when we examine it in light of the passage where it is located.
It appears to even have been commanded by God, if one believes that the Bible is the word of God.
Assuming that Raising of hands is literal and not figurative Yes there are records in the Old Testament that document such actions. There are none however to support the fact that God commanded it . To assume just because people do something that it is commanded or approved is a leap -a big one that has no scriptural support.
To say that it is wrong for them to be raising their hands has no foundation that I can find so far in the Bible.
Whitedove: But as I said I would be hard pressed to wrench it from it's context and try to connect it to a meeting plan. I don't in fact know of any verse that speaks to how to format a service
Whitedove: So is there anything intrinsically wrong with this practice? I'd say perhaps not but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do.
As I said it is extraneous, accomplishes nothing in changing the results of a prayer, That does not make it wrong it makes it pointless, much the same as sticking your thumb in your ear and wiggling your fingers would be . Each to their own but I ask again is there a point to this?
TWI uses the fact that the tithe is not “officially” recanted in the grace administration as justification for requiring the tithe of their people. One can also say that the raising of hands in praise, worship and glory to God is also not recanted in the NT anywhere, therefore, it is still a commandment and desire of God’s that we do raise our hands in praise to him.
First The Way was wrong in their assumption! If you followed the same path you would be wrong also. A wrong belief on their part does not prove another right it just makes two wrong ones. Secondly there is a reason raising of hands is not recanted in the New Testament -that being that it was never commanded ,mandated, suggested in the Old by God. One would not recant something he did not say to begin with. Which means there is nothing to recant even if one wanted to.
Let me add one thought to clarify my previous post:
We must never, ever forget that the Bible is a compilation of individual documents written by a number of people over the period of centuries. That's why the "word search" method is of limited usage...it's good as a reference. It's good to see if a definition applied to a word works. It's good to find something. But it limits our ability to understand the messages that are in each of those documents that were compiled to form the Bible.
How do you know that the lifting up of hands mentioned in the bible isn't literal? The testimony of art and history says it is.
Belle, you reminded me of the record of David in II Samuel dancing before the Lord. His wife was offended at him, and David told her he would "become even more undignified than this..." II Sam. 6 something.
How do you know that the lifting up of hands mentioned in the bible isn't literal? The testimony of art and history says it is.
Belle, you reminded me of the record of David in II Samuel dancing before the Lord. His wife was offended at him, and David told her he would "become even more undignified than this..." II Sam. 6 something.
Reminds me of a song....... :)
ex10,
FWIW, check this out:
Psa 134:1 A Song of Ascents. Come, bless the LORD, all you servants of the LORD, who stand by night in the house of the LORD!
Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands to the holy place, and bless the LORD!
Psa 134:3 May the LORD bless you from Zion, he who made heaven and earth!
(Note: the holy place, in context, is the Holy of Holies)
Psa 141:1 A Psalm of David. I call upon thee, O LORD; make haste to me! Give ear to my voice, when I call to thee!
Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!
Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered as one man into the square before the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the LORD had given to Israel.
Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly, both men and women and all who could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law.
Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood on a wooden pulpit which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithi'ah, Shema, Anai'ah, Uri'ah, Hilki'ah, and Ma-asei'ah on his right hand; and Pedai'ah, Mish'a-el, Malchi'jah, Hashum, Hash-bad'danah, Zechari'ah, and Meshul'lam on his left hand.
Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was above all the people; and when he opened it all the people stood.
Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God; and all the people answered, "Amen, Amen," lifting up their hands; and they bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Hope that helps a little bit. Having said that, though, it is clear that none of these provide evidence to the chaos that happens in a lot of worship services out there, though.
Also, having said that, I also don't see where it is commanded that a person lift their hands. I don't see where it was forbidden. OTOH, I also don't see where breathing is commanded or forbidden, either.
I assume that since you are of the Catholic persuasion that you prefer the more liturgical form of worship. And I do confess to enjoying the same on occassion. The priest while performing the Mass, during certain readings, lifts his hands in the traditional stance of prayer. I think it's a beautiful act, and I really don't understand--really--what the objection is if a communicant wants to stand that way too?
As far as I can see, we are talking mainly about lifting ones hands in prayer, yet ever body wants to talk about chaos and "decent and in order" and such things.
as far as I can see. But hey, I like to wander myself.
And yeah, the passage you cited is really cool. There is so much more to this subject than appears at first glance, ya know?
I'm actually reading Edersheims book on the Temple currently and it's pretty fascinating stuff. It's one of those books I'd meaning to read for years and finally am getting to it. Who knew worship was so complicated back then? Sure makes me appriciate what we have now.
ps to Belle I'm making my Ro-Tel taco soup for supper tonight. It's de---lish. I have the recipe if you want it. ;)
Very good stuff, here, y'all. I do appreciate this and have ended my work days the last couple days coming to this thread after I get home. Aaah. Home.
Praise and worship - I've mostly seen it as a "part" of church services, where it's at the beginning. I've also seen it as the "whole" service, where it's the primary activity of the gathering.
There are many ways to praise and worship God - we're "living sacrifices". I confess - I don't understand things I read about like "laughing in the spirit", and such things. If something's funny, I laugh. I laugh at some things others might not find funny. But I just don't attend places where that's going on.
-Raising hands in a church service wouldn't be out of order in my mind. There's natural expression and there's phoney expression. If people do it because it's the thing to do or because it's "time", that's phoney. As WhiteDove said - why bother? Sit down, relax. But when it's time to sing I'll clap, I enjoy the singing, the music.
But I confess - it's a little weird to me a few times at one church we visited for awhile, I've seen some people in a service while the teaching or sermon is going on with eyes squinched shut suddenly raising their arms up out of nowhere and mumbling.
To me, it's spooky. What's going on? Is he okay? :blink: Sorry, it's just the way it strikes me, I don't get it but I guess they do.
My daughter's been to the Hillsong Music and church in Australia twice, once for a music conference they held. Hillsong's Darlene Zschech is an incredible singer and songwriter and wrote "Shout to the Lord", a staple of praise and worship singing now. They've been on tour worldwide and my wife's seen them and was really blessed by the entire experience. THIS LINK has more and an interview with her. I really like her music personally.
While there are parts of the whole "praise and worship" movement as it's called, that are extremely commercial and contrived, I think it may be a legitimate response to the needs of people everywhere, particularly in our generation. It's certainly a natural growth, in many ways.
They've got a song that's very cool - and they lyrics to the chorus made me go "whoa!" the first time I heard them. It's titled "Free to Dance" although it's not talking about dancing in the services all over the place spontaneously. The idea of the song is cool. My first thought was David, and I'd have to say that although dancing is a specatator sport for me, it sounds wonderful - it goes:
This song in my heart, this song in my soul
This song I was born to sing
It's Your song of freedom, now I'm free to dance again
I'll sing in the darkness, I'll laugh in the rain
Rejoice in Your love again
It's Your song of freedom, now I'm free to dance again
Your Spirit brings me liberty
Your breath of life has set me free
Chorus:
Jesus, Your love, it lifts me high
Gives me reason to run the race with joy
This song within me, Lord, will bless Your Holy name
Jesus, I'll dance before Your throne
Bring this heavenly sound to You alone
This song within me. Lord, will bless Your Holy name
How do you know that the lifting up of hands mentioned in the bible isn't literal? The testimony of art and history says it is.
I don't. I don't remember saying that it was not literal. I think I said
Assuming that Raising of hands is literal and not figurative Yes there are records in the Old Testament that document such actions. There are none however to support the fact that God commanded it . To assume just because people do something that it is commanded or approved is a leap -a big one that has no scriptural support.
Another words could be either way but for the sake of arguing this point (ie that because people did it that God commanded it) we will assume that it is literal as most have.
Yes there are Old Testament records of Hebrew people doing this (lifting up of hands)
Nowhere do I see where God asked or commanded that it be done. Nor do I see it mentioned in the New Testament as being done. (A fact that I find interesting in itself) conspicuously absent are Jesus and the apostles lifting hands up.
None the less just because people do something in the Bible does not confirm that it was God who told them to do it or that He wanted or commanded them to do so. As it is today people do things for various reasons some of which are good and bad.
Art shows some people raising their hands I don't disagree with you . Now the question is who are these people ? One could assume that it is David then again it could be razime the unbeliever that lives down the road. It's not a picture after all.
There's natural expression and there's phoney expression. If people do it because it's the thing to do or because it's "time", that's phoney. As WhiteDove said - why bother? Sit down, relax. But when it's time to sing I'll clap, I enjoy the singing, the music.
But I confess - it's a little weird to me a few times at one church we visited for awhile, I've seen some people in a service while the teaching or sermon is going on with eyes squinched shut suddenly raising their arms up out of nowhere and mumbling.
To me, it's spooky. What's going on? Is he okay? Sorry, it's just the way it strikes me, I don't get it but I guess they do.
Exactly Socks I could not agree more or said it better....... I don't get it either by the way
I assume that since you are of the Catholic persuasion that you prefer the more liturgical form of worship services. And I do confess to enjoying the same on occassion. The priest while performing the Mass, during certain readings, lifts his hands in the traditional stance of prayer. I think it's a beautiful act, and I really don't understand--really--what the objection is if a communicant wants to stand that way too?
As far as I can see, we are talking mainly about lifting ones hands in prayer, yet ever body wants to talk about chaos and "decent and in order" and such things.
as far as I can see. But hey, I like to wander myself.
I am very straight-laced when it comes to the divine liturgies, whether Eastern or Western. I know you are an ex-Catholic, so I don't mean to bore you with what follows, but I feel I should for the benefit of those who have never had any catechesis in historic, apostolic Christianity (i.e., Latin, Byzantine, Syriac, or Coptic).
In the Divine Liturgy (regardless of the rite in which that liturgy is celebrated), the core of the liturgy is the celebration of the eternal Paschal mystery through the Eucharist. The entire liturgy is focused around the single moment when the Holy Spirit comes to the altar during the Anaphora and transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in the Consecration. (And before somebody starts condemning Rome, please keep in mind that this happens in any of the apostolic churches, not just the Latin Church)
So obviously we can see that this is a particularly grave and profound occasion. All the practices, all the symbology in the Liturgy are focused around this moment. Everything has meaning and it all has deep, deep roots. Remember, in Hebrews 9, it says that the old covenant were but figures of the present age. And we can see in the Apocolypse of John the heavenly worship that is ongoing in heaven. The symbology in the divine liturgies come from this source. (I'm only relating this to try, somehow, to communicate the gravity to those who have never worshipped as part of these historic, apostolic churches...I assume that those folks who have, even though they reject it for themselves, will have an appreciation)
When we are in a properly celebrated liturgy in a properly designed church, literally everything draws us closer to God...the incense (sweet-smelling fragrance rising to God), the signing of our foreheads, lips, and heart (Lord, may my thoughts, words, and heart be on Your Word), the head nods and bows (at the name of Christ, every knee may bow), the bulk of the prayers (Lord, have mercy; Holy, Holy, Holy; Lamb of God; etc.).
For the gravity of the situation, it is, of course, appropriate to ensure that a novelty is not introduced that somehow either theologically is inconsistent with what should be happening or approaches the violation of "decent and in order." If something like that is introduced, either by the clergy or by the laity, it takes away from the liturgy, acts as a distraction, and shows either an ignorance of the theology or an inappropriate irreverence to that theology.
On a theological basis, I don't see any kind of an issue if a person wanted to assume the Orans position when praying the Our Father during the communion rite. After all, we are all making supplication to God when praying the Our Father during this rite. There are other liturgical abuses which far, far, far overshadow this one.
And yeah, the passage you cited is really cool. There is so much more to this subject than appears at first glance, ya know?
I'm actually reading Edersheims book on the Temple currently and it's pretty fascinating stuff. It's one of those books I'd meaning to read for years and finally am getting to it. Who knew worship was so complicated back then? Sure makes me appriciate what we have now.
Well, when one comes to an understanding of what is happening in Heb 9 and then see the heavenly worship, as shown in Rev 10, we have, imho, a much greater appreciation for what happened in the Old Testament.
An interesting study for you to do sometime, ex10, would be a study of the greek words latreia and doulia.
Oh, and one other thing: I have no problem with, and, at times enjoy, a far more free-wheeling worship/ prayer service as well. I like the spontenaity and the heart in that.
But there is a difference between a worship/prayer/praise service and the Divine Liturgy.
Thanks, Mark, for sharing that. It's been a really long time since I was in catachism.
I think it's pretty interesting that Vatican II has been credited (or blamed, depending on one's POV) for the whole "contemporary service" movement. Specifically the changes in the liturgy, ie using the common vernacular, more lay participation, etc. and the charismatic renewal have had huge impact, not just in the Catholic churches, but mainline Protestant churches as well.
And I actually have been studying some about worship (latreia) but unfortunately, I don't have the time I like to dig. So you're insights are much appreciated.
Thanks, Mark, for sharing that. It's been a really long time since I was in catachism.
I think it's pretty interesting that Vatican II has been credited (or blamed, depending on one's POV) for the whole "contemporary service" movement. Specifically the changes in the liturgy, ie using the common vernacular, more lay participation, etc. and the charismatic renewal have had huge impact, not just in the Catholic churches, but mainline Protestant churches as well.
And I actually have been studying some about worship (latreia) but unfortunately, I don't have the time I like to dig. So you're insights are much appreciated.
A lot of novelties were blamed on Vatican II that are not actually part of the document generated for that purpose, Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. I think that many of those changes would have been appropriate under certain, limited circumstances, but worked their way into the mainstream. A lot of this was coincident with other movements going on at the time. But this is getting way to "inside baseball" for this forum. Suffice it to say that I think a lot of the reverence has been removed from all facets of the liturgy that has reverberated into multiple areas and has, in many cases, done more to harm than for good.
Again, though, let me stress, I have no problem in the world with a casual, contemporary prayer/praise service. But not the Divine Liturgy. But, that is imho and is fwiw and, as always, ymmv.
I totally get what your saying, I think. (Presumptous people get on my nerves, so I hope I'm not being that way.)
But yeah. I, too, believe that the contemporary movement or whatever it is that's going on, is a response to a great need. Heck, we could talk about this subject for days, probably.
I guess I'm one of those that doesn't want to draw lines around it, color it, shape it and kneed it, put it an a box, and make sure it looks all pretty with a bow on top.
Thank you so much for your perspective and input. Same goes to all who have contributed to the discussion.
I have this passion that I just can't seem to squelch, that stems from first grade, baltimore catechism, which taught me that my purpose for living is to worship and obey God. Blame it on the nuns. But, to me, llife revolves around relationships with God, our Lord Jesus, and our fellow humans. And anything that helps me understand all that........is precious.
I think I like living down here in the basement with the black lights and Peter Max posters.
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ex10
Cool stuff, guy and gals, I think I might even be getting inspired to dust off my concordance and expository dictionary. I'm kidding, but not really.............
Now ya'll've (southern word, sorry) got me really wondering what to do with myself when I'm at church and just feel like yellin "Yay, God. You rock!"
I get the "worship being serious business" stuff, and being mindful of where ya are, what you're doing, who else is there, is my slip showing?, if it is, will it freak anybody out? etc. being respectful and considerate.
So my next question is: What do ya do with yourself when ya just want to jump up and down and yell, "Go God! Give me a G.........." etc.
Is there any place for that in a "decent and in order" meeting?
ooooh, it just occurred to me maybe you're not sposed to feel that way in church..........
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allan w.
Absolutely ex-10, it makes for exciting services and an exciting atmosphere (and the meeting can still be deemed decent and in order) ! I think people get mixed up with 'prim and proper' !!
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WhiteDove
Ex maybe Socks still has an old "We're on God's Team outfit you could cheer in"........
Yeah Praise and Worship Cheerleaders......
:blink: 
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bliss
Thanks all for your input, I still need to take this into my own "hands" by allowing God to lead me.
So, Dove, Socks, I couldn't raise anything or dance when the teaching is going on, that I agree. I don't think God would interupt himself.
Having said that, do you all shout or pump a fist at sporting events, concerts?
If not, then, why?
If so, then what is wrong with doing it in a rockin worship service (we're talking music time here)?
oh Hi Allan, anyway.
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WhiteDove
Bliss
I think Ex-10 covered it pretty well it would depend on the type of meeting you wanted to have . I would expect noise at a sports event or concert by nature they just are loud. I would not expect quiet repose at such a event. At a board meeting I would expect orderly discussion the same in a court of law. I can only speak for myself but to me a church meeting is a place to get away from the noise of everyday life a time of prayer and reflection. A time to commune with my heavenly Father to listen to his Words. I think there is much to be said to the old saying "The Greatest Cargo's of life come in over quiet seas." Put another way Be Still and know that I am God! I find that hard to do that when people are waving about and shouting. Maybe I could just close my eyes and block it out if I thought that there was some productive purpose for it but as I said ,so far I see none. So again I still am faced with the same question why do something extraneous that has no scriptural mandate? What's the point?
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Belle
Okay, I’m just starting to look at this, so this is by no means comprehensive, but it does appear to me that the raising of hands is/was fairly common in worship and praise and even in the temple and during worship – Dancing, too!. It appears to even have been commanded by God, if one believes that the Bible is the word of God.
I think that to forbid or to discourage/demean or otherwise scorn people who do like to raise their hands during the music part of a service is wrong. To say that it is wrong for them to be raising their hands has no foundation that I can find so far in the Bible. It would be much like the Jehovah'’ Witnesses saying that they don't celebrate birthdays because it’s not celebrated in the Bible.
TWI uses the fact that the tithe is not “officially” recanted in the grace administration as justification for requiring the tithe of their people. One can also say that the raising of hands in praise, worship and glory to God is also not recanted in the NT anywhere, therefore, it is still a commandment and desire of God’s that we do raise our hands in praise to him.
Just my two cents worth, ymmv.
1Ti 2:8 - I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Psa 28:2 - Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.
Ecc 3:4 - A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Jer 31:13 - Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Psa 30:11 - Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
Psa 63:3-4 - Because thy lovingkindness [is] better than life, my lips shall praise thee.
Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.
Neh 8:6 - And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with [their] faces to the ground.
Neh 8:11-12 - So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day [is] holy; neither be ye grieved.
And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
Luk 19:39-40 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Act 3:8 - And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Galatians 2 – is all about Paul confronting Peter on trying to make the Gentiles live according to the law of the Jews.
Psa 141:2 - Let my prayer be set forth before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the evening sacrifice.
Lam 3:41 - Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens.
Psa 134:2 - Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
Gen 14:22 - And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Rev 10:5 - And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Psa 68:31 - Princes shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands unto God.
Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
Isa 1:15 - And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
2Ki 11:12 - And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and [gave him] the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king. (This is in the temple)
Psa 47:1 - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.]] O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
Psa 149:3 - Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
Psa 150:4 - Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Ezr 3:10-13 - And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because [he is] good, for his mercy [endureth] for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, [who were] ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy:
So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people: for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off.
2Ch 29:27, 28 - And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel.
And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished.
Isa 24:8 - The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
Psa 30:4 - Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psa 33:1-ff - Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: [for] praise is comely for the upright.
Jam 5:13 - Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
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allan w.
I think a wonderful church service can include ALL of the above !!
A time of air punching, a time of quiet reflection, a time for amens and hallelujahs certainly adds up to an exciting and expectant atmosphere.
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Raf
Amen and hallelujah!
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markomalley
Belle,
If I can give you a suggestion, you may wish to re-think the methodology you use to study the Bible. Doing the concordance-level word study is a very, very dangerous method for discovering the 'mind of Christ' on a given subject.
Let me take one verse and talk about it a bit:
Jer 31:13 - Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
To really understand this verse, you simply must go back to Jer 29 and read the entire context of that particular prophecy. He is giving a prophecy to the remnant of Israel, exiled in Babylon. He is telling them to settle down and to build houses, raise families, and settle in for the long haul. He tells the exiles that those who stayed in Jerusalem, rather than being exiled, will be the subject of plagues. And then after 70 years exile, He will gather His people together again and return them. Dancing, drinking, eating, all sorts of partying will go on.
The point is that, from looking at the full context, it becomes apparent that this is not talking about dancing in the Temple, nor is this any kind of a commandment, rather this is a statement about the celebrations that will happen when the sons of Jacob are restored to their land after their long exile.
Likewise, the first verse you quoted (1 Ti 2:8) is, when you read the context (start at 1 Tim 1:18), shows that Paul is exhorting Timothy, Bishop of Ephesus, to be careful that his flock doesn't slip into heresy, like the examples of Hymenaeus and Alexander. He first tells Timothy to have them offer prayers for all men, including Kings and Rulers (who weren't Christian), so that they could live a peaceable life. Then he calls on men to pray together without bickering and quarelling and for women to dress modestly and to learn in silence (there are other sections talking about backbiting, rumormongering, etc.). And yada, yada. As you can see from the pictures I posted earlier, prayer, supplication, pleading was commonly done using the Orans posture. The point of this section is not to authorize the raising of hands, but rather to be peaceable and in order (cf 1 Cor 11-14).
The point I'm getting at is not to criticize your searching the scriptures, but the point is that understanding the context of what's written and looking for the correct instructional passages is far more beneficial than doing a broad-brush word study without understanding the context within which a given verse appears. Because, as you've seen elsewhere, a verse may appear to say one thing when taken out of it's context, but may say something else completely when we examine it in light of the passage where it is located.
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WhiteDove
As I said it is extraneous, accomplishes nothing in changing the results of a prayer, That does not make it wrong it makes it pointless, much the same as sticking your thumb in your ear and wiggling your fingers would be . Each to their own but I ask again is there a point to this?
First The Way was wrong in their assumption! If you followed the same path you would be wrong also. A wrong belief on their part does not prove another right it just makes two wrong ones. Secondly there is a reason raising of hands is not recanted in the New Testament -that being that it was never commanded ,mandated, suggested in the Old by God. One would not recant something he did not say to begin with. Which means there is nothing to recant even if one wanted to.
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markomalley
Let me add one thought to clarify my previous post:
We must never, ever forget that the Bible is a compilation of individual documents written by a number of people over the period of centuries. That's why the "word search" method is of limited usage...it's good as a reference. It's good to see if a definition applied to a word works. It's good to find something. But it limits our ability to understand the messages that are in each of those documents that were compiled to form the Bible.
FWIW and YMMV as always...
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ex10
Dove
How do you know that the lifting up of hands mentioned in the bible isn't literal? The testimony of art and history says it is.
Belle, you reminded me of the record of David in II Samuel dancing before the Lord. His wife was offended at him, and David told her he would "become even more undignified than this..." II Sam. 6 something.
Reminds me of a song....... :)
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markomalley
ex10,
FWIW, check this out:
Psa 134:1 A Song of Ascents. Come, bless the LORD, all you servants of the LORD, who stand by night in the house of the LORD!
Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands to the holy place, and bless the LORD!
Psa 134:3 May the LORD bless you from Zion, he who made heaven and earth!
(Note: the holy place, in context, is the Holy of Holies)
Psa 141:1 A Psalm of David. I call upon thee, O LORD; make haste to me! Give ear to my voice, when I call to thee!
Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!
Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered as one man into the square before the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the LORD had given to Israel.
Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly, both men and women and all who could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law.
Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood on a wooden pulpit which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithi'ah, Shema, Anai'ah, Uri'ah, Hilki'ah, and Ma-asei'ah on his right hand; and Pedai'ah, Mish'a-el, Malchi'jah, Hashum, Hash-bad'danah, Zechari'ah, and Meshul'lam on his left hand.
Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was above all the people; and when he opened it all the people stood.
Neh 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God; and all the people answered, "Amen, Amen," lifting up their hands; and they bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Hope that helps a little bit. Having said that, though, it is clear that none of these provide evidence to the chaos that happens in a lot of worship services out there, though.
Also, having said that, I also don't see where it is commanded that a person lift their hands. I don't see where it was forbidden. OTOH, I also don't see where breathing is commanded or forbidden, either.
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ex10
Cool Mark.
I assume that since you are of the Catholic persuasion that you prefer the more liturgical form of worship. And I do confess to enjoying the same on occassion. The priest while performing the Mass, during certain readings, lifts his hands in the traditional stance of prayer. I think it's a beautiful act, and I really don't understand--really--what the objection is if a communicant wants to stand that way too?
As far as I can see, we are talking mainly about lifting ones hands in prayer, yet ever body wants to talk about chaos and "decent and in order" and such things.
And yeah, the passage you cited is really cool. There is so much more to this subject than appears at first glance, ya know?
I'm actually reading Edersheims book on the Temple currently and it's pretty fascinating stuff. It's one of those books I'd meaning to read for years and finally am getting to it. Who knew worship was so complicated back then? Sure makes me appriciate what we have now.
ps to Belle I'm making my Ro-Tel taco soup for supper tonight. It's de---lish. I have the recipe if you want it. ;)
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socks
Very good stuff, here, y'all. I do appreciate this and have ended my work days the last couple days coming to this thread after I get home. Aaah. Home.
Praise and worship - I've mostly seen it as a "part" of church services, where it's at the beginning. I've also seen it as the "whole" service, where it's the primary activity of the gathering.
There are many ways to praise and worship God - we're "living sacrifices". I confess - I don't understand things I read about like "laughing in the spirit", and such things. If something's funny, I laugh. I laugh at some things others might not find funny.
But I just don't attend places where that's going on.
-Raising hands in a church service wouldn't be out of order in my mind. There's natural expression and there's phoney expression. If people do it because it's the thing to do or because it's "time", that's phoney. As WhiteDove said - why bother? Sit down, relax. But when it's time to sing I'll clap, I enjoy the singing, the music.
But I confess - it's a little weird to me a few times at one church we visited for awhile, I've seen some people in a service while the teaching or sermon is going on with eyes squinched shut suddenly raising their arms up out of nowhere and mumbling.
To me, it's spooky. What's going on? Is he okay? :blink: Sorry, it's just the way it strikes me, I don't get it but I guess they do.
My daughter's been to the Hillsong Music and church in Australia twice, once for a music conference they held. Hillsong's Darlene Zschech is an incredible singer and songwriter and wrote "Shout to the Lord", a staple of praise and worship singing now. They've been on tour worldwide and my wife's seen them and was really blessed by the entire experience. THIS LINK has more and an interview with her. I really like her music personally.
While there are parts of the whole "praise and worship" movement as it's called, that are extremely commercial and contrived, I think it may be a legitimate response to the needs of people everywhere, particularly in our generation. It's certainly a natural growth, in many ways.
They've got a song that's very cool - and they lyrics to the chorus made me go "whoa!" the first time I heard them. It's titled "Free to Dance" although it's not talking about dancing in the services all over the place spontaneously. The idea of the song is cool. My first thought was David, and I'd have to say that although dancing is a specatator sport for me, it sounds wonderful - it goes:
This song in my heart, this song in my soul
This song I was born to sing
It's Your song of freedom, now I'm free to dance again
I'll sing in the darkness, I'll laugh in the rain
Rejoice in Your love again
It's Your song of freedom, now I'm free to dance again
Your Spirit brings me liberty
Your breath of life has set me free
Chorus:
Jesus, Your love, it lifts me high
Gives me reason to run the race with joy
This song within me, Lord, will bless Your Holy name
Jesus, I'll dance before Your throne
Bring this heavenly sound to You alone
This song within me. Lord, will bless Your Holy name
It's a cool tune.
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WhiteDove
Another words could be either way but for the sake of arguing this point (ie that because people did it that God commanded it) we will assume that it is literal as most have.
Yes there are Old Testament records of Hebrew people doing this (lifting up of hands)
Nowhere do I see where God asked or commanded that it be done. Nor do I see it mentioned in the New Testament as being done. (A fact that I find interesting in itself) conspicuously absent are Jesus and the apostles lifting hands up.
None the less just because people do something in the Bible does not confirm that it was God who told them to do it or that He wanted or commanded them to do so. As it is today people do things for various reasons some of which are good and bad.
Art shows some people raising their hands I don't disagree with you . Now the question is who are these people ? One could assume that it is David then again it could be razime the unbeliever that lives down the road. It's not a picture after all.
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WhiteDove
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markomalley
Cool Mark.
I assume that since you are of the Catholic persuasion that you prefer the more liturgical form of worship services. And I do confess to enjoying the same on occassion. The priest while performing the Mass, during certain readings, lifts his hands in the traditional stance of prayer. I think it's a beautiful act, and I really don't understand--really--what the objection is if a communicant wants to stand that way too?
As far as I can see, we are talking mainly about lifting ones hands in prayer, yet ever body wants to talk about chaos and "decent and in order" and such things.
I am very straight-laced when it comes to the divine liturgies, whether Eastern or Western. I know you are an ex-Catholic, so I don't mean to bore you with what follows, but I feel I should for the benefit of those who have never had any catechesis in historic, apostolic Christianity (i.e., Latin, Byzantine, Syriac, or Coptic).
In the Divine Liturgy (regardless of the rite in which that liturgy is celebrated), the core of the liturgy is the celebration of the eternal Paschal mystery through the Eucharist. The entire liturgy is focused around the single moment when the Holy Spirit comes to the altar during the Anaphora and transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in the Consecration. (And before somebody starts condemning Rome, please keep in mind that this happens in any of the apostolic churches, not just the Latin Church)
So obviously we can see that this is a particularly grave and profound occasion. All the practices, all the symbology in the Liturgy are focused around this moment. Everything has meaning and it all has deep, deep roots. Remember, in Hebrews 9, it says that the old covenant were but figures of the present age. And we can see in the Apocolypse of John the heavenly worship that is ongoing in heaven. The symbology in the divine liturgies come from this source. (I'm only relating this to try, somehow, to communicate the gravity to those who have never worshipped as part of these historic, apostolic churches...I assume that those folks who have, even though they reject it for themselves, will have an appreciation)
When we are in a properly celebrated liturgy in a properly designed church, literally everything draws us closer to God...the incense (sweet-smelling fragrance rising to God), the signing of our foreheads, lips, and heart (Lord, may my thoughts, words, and heart be on Your Word), the head nods and bows (at the name of Christ, every knee may bow), the bulk of the prayers (Lord, have mercy; Holy, Holy, Holy; Lamb of God; etc.).
For the gravity of the situation, it is, of course, appropriate to ensure that a novelty is not introduced that somehow either theologically is inconsistent with what should be happening or approaches the violation of "decent and in order." If something like that is introduced, either by the clergy or by the laity, it takes away from the liturgy, acts as a distraction, and shows either an ignorance of the theology or an inappropriate irreverence to that theology.
On a theological basis, I don't see any kind of an issue if a person wanted to assume the Orans position when praying the Our Father during the communion rite. After all, we are all making supplication to God when praying the Our Father during this rite. There are other liturgical abuses which far, far, far overshadow this one.
And yeah, the passage you cited is really cool. There is so much more to this subject than appears at first glance, ya know?
I'm actually reading Edersheims book on the Temple currently and it's pretty fascinating stuff. It's one of those books I'd meaning to read for years and finally am getting to it. Who knew worship was so complicated back then? Sure makes me appriciate what we have now.
Well, when one comes to an understanding of what is happening in Heb 9 and then see the heavenly worship, as shown in Rev 10, we have, imho, a much greater appreciation for what happened in the Old Testament.
An interesting study for you to do sometime, ex10, would be a study of the greek words latreia and doulia.
Oh, and one other thing: I have no problem with, and, at times enjoy, a far more free-wheeling worship/ prayer service as well. I like the spontenaity and the heart in that.
But there is a difference between a worship/prayer/praise service and the Divine Liturgy.
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ex10
Thanks, Mark, for sharing that. It's been a really long time since I was in catachism.
I think it's pretty interesting that Vatican II has been credited (or blamed, depending on one's POV) for the whole "contemporary service" movement. Specifically the changes in the liturgy, ie using the common vernacular, more lay participation, etc. and the charismatic renewal have had huge impact, not just in the Catholic churches, but mainline Protestant churches as well.
And I actually have been studying some about worship (latreia) but unfortunately, I don't have the time I like to dig. So you're insights are much appreciated.
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markomalley
A lot of novelties were blamed on Vatican II that are not actually part of the document generated for that purpose, Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. I think that many of those changes would have been appropriate under certain, limited circumstances, but worked their way into the mainstream. A lot of this was coincident with other movements going on at the time. But this is getting way to "inside baseball" for this forum. Suffice it to say that I think a lot of the reverence has been removed from all facets of the liturgy that has reverberated into multiple areas and has, in many cases, done more to harm than for good.
Again, though, let me stress, I have no problem in the world with a casual, contemporary prayer/praise service. But not the Divine Liturgy. But, that is imho and is fwiw and, as always, ymmv.
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ex10
mark, ;)
socks,
I totally get what your saying, I think. (Presumptous people get on my nerves, so I hope I'm not being that way.)
But yeah. I, too, believe that the contemporary movement or whatever it is that's going on, is a response to a great need. Heck, we could talk about this subject for days, probably.
I guess I'm one of those that doesn't want to draw lines around it, color it, shape it and kneed it, put it an a box, and make sure it looks all pretty with a bow on top.
Thank you so much for your perspective and input. Same goes to all who have contributed to the discussion.
I have this passion that I just can't seem to squelch, that stems from first grade, baltimore catechism, which taught me that my purpose for living is to worship and obey God. Blame it on the nuns. But, to me, llife revolves around relationships with God, our Lord Jesus, and our fellow humans. And anything that helps me understand all that........is precious.
I think I like living down here in the basement with the black lights and Peter Max posters.
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socks
ex10, you're mighty welcome and no, of course, you're not. :)
Peter Max posters?!
Cool!
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ex10
ok, maybe not peter max.
but andy warhol, at least. :D
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WhiteDove
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