"Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place."
Psalm 63:4
"I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands."
Bliss,
There are more verses. The act of lifting up the hands was one of serveral ways to physically express worship. Others were/are "bowing the knee," a biggee, clapping, shouting, etc.
This whole subject can be a pretty exhaustive study. In fact, I have a friend who wrote her PHD in seminary on different worship styles throughout history. Pretty interesting stuff if one wants to take the time to learn about it.
And here's a verse I love: Psalm 141:2: "May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice."
I know that I raise hands in worship (after studing those verses behind it). I don't know why they were so set against it and ignored those verses. It's not "religious", it's worship.
The teaching I heard about it was that churches who do it today "bastardized" the real deal. TWI said that in Biblical times they raised holy hands as they sat on prayer mats, kind of in a yoga position with arms out, palms up.
I disagree with them totally. I equate raising holy hands while singing praises to God as a close experience to Him which is healing. It reminds me that He is there for me. It is wayyyyy better than SIT imho because it seems like a two-way relationship instead of a one-way like SIT is.
Quote by Bliss:"Also, I think it had to do with "contoling your emotions".
Unfortunately, many wafers ended up with NO emotion.
There is a difference between, controlling emotions or having them control you. In the Way we always took the extreme of one.."
That is a sad, sad part of twi. There was no emotion because it represented weakness. I enjoy song worship as a way to connect with God. Sometimes there are tears. Some tears are joyful, and some are sorrowful. I think I have learned to be a real person instead of a waybot through this.
The Orans position (Latin for "praying") or some variation of it, was common to almost all ancient religions as an outward sign of supplicating God (or if a pagan religion, the gods). Consider what we do when we plead with someone. We might put our arms out in front of us as if reaching for the person and say "I beg you, help me." This seems to be a natural human gesture coming from deep within us - like kneeling to adore or to express sorrow. Now, turn that reach heavenwards and you have the Orans position.
The ancient monuments of Christianity, such as the tombs in the catecombs, often show someone in the Orans position supplicating God, to show that the prayers of the Church accompany the person in death.
I could understand why LCM wouldn't approve: it is far too "Catholic" related...and that simply wouldn't do!
Pics linked per "Fair Use" doctrine for educational purposes. 17 U.S.C. 107
Bliss, for some reason I want to say this went back to the Way's view of "holy rollers", and what people in some churches did when they spoke in tongues. Gettin' crazy, jumping around, possess-o, that stuff. Can't quite place it though and that explanation would be pretty old. I think there was a connection made there between the two that "queered" the whole thing, like "oh glawry Pete, I'm so full o' the Lawd I just gotta raise my hands and pray-uz Him I can' he'p myself!!"....lack of control. I think VPW viewed it like an unauthorized bathroom break, maybe.
I think one of the attractive things about the early Way was that there weren't a lot of rituals attached on to the fellowship. Sit on the floor, sit on a chair, sit in a church, meeting room, outside, whevever. Outside of the things that were believed to be important elements of the faith, there wasn't an enforced order of service or specific way to do things. Georgraphically and culturally there was flexibility.
Plus, I've said it before, I first went to the Way Nash in 1970, couple times that years for a few weeks and the SNS's were hot deals in those days. Dororthy and Rhoda pumping the keyboards..."I SAW THE LIGHT!".....VPW doing the Preacher's Strut at the podium, his hair and tie all over the place by the time he'd be done. Not all the time, but it could get going as I recall. The people from the Ohio area that went ranged from quiet in the seat types to people shoutin' AMEN! and GLORY! here and there. I still remember vividly an elderly woman slappin' her bible and clapping as VPW hit his mark on something and her yelling "Oh, he's so CUITE! He just loves the Lord!" When people woud "manifest" they'd get into it. Couple times heard people sing prophesy, out of nowhere. I'm serious - here I'm a long haired boy from the Left Coast and wondering what I've walked into.
So for a lot of people more introverted or less inclined to publis displayes of emotion it was very nice. It wasn't a church service where you bobbed up and down in a pew or on a kneeler for an hour, nor was it a deal where some preacher was in your face asking if you were saved or not. It could reflect who you are/were, not so much what someone else said you should or had to be. Others liked expression, and that could be there too. But if I look back to the early years, late 60's era, I think most of us weren't as inclined to the churchy hand raising stuff and more of a youthful response, informal, relaxed.
EX10, I love those verses you posted. I do agree, as I've grown and changed personally I see the need for meaningful ritual and expression of one's own thoughts and convictions. The churches I've been to that have people "raising hands" are very joyful celebrations of faith and prayer.
Being a musician, I can appreciate this. You've got your shoe-gazing types, your boppin' and rockin' types. There's nothing like throwing your head back and goin' for it. :) Or diggin' in for some serious arrangments.
I think the adversion went to the whole "decent and in order" concept. Problem was that while they were controlling worship they weren't controlling themselves...
There's a verse in Timothy about raising holy hands. I was taught once that this was an orientalism referring to physically expressing forgiveness, or something like that. It's no substitute for SIT though.
"I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing."
I think the emphasis in this verse is on "holy." As Mark mentioned, in the earliest depictions we have of Christianity, lifting up the hands was standard operating prayer procedure.
Anyway, I find it ironic that a minitry who claimed to be patterened after "the 1st century Chrisitan Church" would so easily dismiss a very reverent and submissive prayer stance used by those who came before us. Not only dismiss it, but condemn those who want to. Wierd.
Socks, I too have some pretty fond memories of BRC services. :)
And I'm not a musician, but I am married to one, and I know standing up front playing your heart out and seeing the congregation have an emotional response to the worship can be pretty moving and inspiring all on its own.
To quote one of my favorite songwriters, "worship is more than a song..." I think God and the Lord appreciate it when we are fully engaged, body, soul, and spirit.
The church I currently attend is not charismatic by any stretch of the imagination, but there are a few people in the congregation (both contemporary and traditional services) who raise their hands. Even the pastor was doing it this Sunday during an awesome song we were singing.
I felt odd and found it very disturbing at first, but upon getting to know a few of the people and learning some of the songs better, I actually think it's pretty darn cool - not for me - but pretty darn cool and it "fits" with those personalities. I just kinda rock & tap my foot, but some people just stand there, some of the younger kids actually dance in place - it's really great to see people moving physically to the music comfortably.
It feels good to get excited about something! Like Bliss mentioned we raise our hands at football games and all kinds of other things. I don't typically do that - I usually jump up and down and "high five", so maybe that's why I don't feel the urge to raise my hands in church but to sway and bounce. :D
It's sooooo cool to be able to worship the way we want to and are comfortable doing! TWI stifled so much in us and made us little way-bots - it's nice to be my own Belle-bot enjoying the company of Bliss-bot, Socks-bot, ex10-bot, Mark-bot, Dooj-bot, Moony-bot and all the other unique and individual "bots" around here.
I don't know what my thing is, but I often find myself getting teary eyed during prayer and worship. Good thing I'm not the only one in the crowd I hang with, so I don't have to feel like a total Geek. ^_^
The idea of lifting up hands seems to have picked up a lot of popularity in the last few years among Christian groups many who have not embraced it prior. Notably it seems that those who have embraced the Praise and Worship Songs as in the TV infomercials have also likewise imitated the actions they see there. Like a Pavlov Dog at the sound of the first few notes of Shine Jesus Shine the hands start moving like a referee making a holding call on the 40 yard line. Many people who for years had a fulfilled prayer life now seem to think that there is more to be done. Perhaps many think God is deaf and that He needs some sign language to hear them or maybe that like a motorist stranded in a blizzard we need to wave him down to get his attention. Even ExWay groups like V. Finnegan's C.B.C. and Faithful Word Ministries have joined in the fad.
Some say it brings them closer to God but I thought in Ephesians it says that we already are.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:18,19
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
I would submit to you that if one does not feel close to God that it is not He that is lacking, perhaps it is you that moved away I don't know how you can get any closer than a habitation to God.
Well this new found phenomena raises a ton of questions.
WHY? - Why would you want to raise your hands during music or prayer?
Where?-Where is the Scriptural proof that we are given license to do this ?
What ? - What are Holy Hands? Do we have them?
When ? - If we have them when do we use them when we sing? Pray? teach? Read the Bible?
What ? - What does the Bible say about the subject in the Old and New Testaments?
As many have pointed out there are several references to lifting up hands in the Old Testament. Notably though they are limited to association with prayer. A specific physical posture has never been a requirement for acceptable prayer. Prayer can be made standing (1 Sam. 1:26), or kneeling (1 Kgs. 8:54). Sometimes petitions were offered from a prostrate position (1 Kgs. 18:42; Mk. 14:35). One might spread out his hands in prayer (1 Kgs. 8:22; Isa. 1:15), or lift them up (Job. 11:13-14; Psa. 63:4). But neither the place (public or private), nor posture, was a crucial element of the prayer. As Mark pointed out the lifting up of the hands as a gesture in prayer, however, has been a common, cultural format in many societies of the past, both pagan, Jewish, and Christian. But notable again is the fact that nowhere in scripture is this requested ,asked for, or mandated by God.
The "lifting up of holy hands is more than likely a carried over expression from the Old Testament. These passages of scripture illustrate the fact that in some cases the Hebrews held up their hands when praying. But as we have already seen such is not always the case as there were other postures of prayer also. This leads to the conclusion obviously that a particular posture in prayer was not a binding pattern nor mandated.
Holy Hands just what are they? Literally speaking there is no such thing as "holy hands" This as also noted is a figure of speech synecdoche (the part put for a whole) A quick look at Proverbs 6 will reveal where many body parts are used to metaphorically illustrate evil (a lying tongue, murderous hands, wicked heart, mischievous feet ect...) As in these verses where a part is put for the whole so it is in Timothy.
This leads us to the one and only one verse in the New Testament on the subject of lifting hands.
I Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Overlooking this figure of speech results in a problem in understanding of this verse. Also I would note that in this same chapter are some other verses that seem to be overlooked if one was taking this literally it's interesting what we pick and choose to use and throw away.
. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Timothy is a leadership or pastoral epistle mainly to men serving in the church probably written in 67 AD. To Timothy were given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church. Notably again they were simple, of an ethical nature not a hierarchical one. The point of this verse in Timothy is this. Those who lead in public worship must be holy men leading the church in the very highest spiritual quality. As also noted the emphasis is on the holy part.
In review we see that holding up of hands was one of many postures of prayer used by the Hebrews. Although used it was not requested or mandated by God anywhere in scripture. Thus we have no scriptural urgency to do so. That said men have done things to work out their own salvation for centuries. Man often feels he needs to help God out but then that is the point of Romans isn't it we were dead without hope certainly in no position to offer any form of help and yet we still try to do it our way at times. We see that holy hands in I Timothy the one scripture in the New Testament on this subject is a figure of speech addressed mainly to those leaders or pastor's leading a church. So is there anything intrinsically wrong with this practice? I'd say perhaps not but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do. The next question that begs to be asked is where does it stop? ..... and who makes these decisions in orderly worship?
I attended a meeting of ExWays that honestly I found to be very out of order. While one was praying others were waving hands in various manners, across from me was someone who I would guess was trying to set some sort of record for the number of times he could say Thank You Jesus in one prayer session. Back at the rear of the room was someone on the floor curled up in a ball mumbling to themselves. It was pathetic. Then add to the mix the Joyce Meyer crowd laughing in the spirit, a few people slapping their foreheads and chanting and what if we want to toss hymnals in the air too? So who decides? And where does it end? Hell let's toss in a few rattlers too!
What once started out as maybe an inspired action by some has now been religionized into a full three ring circus set to start on musical que. It's extraneous at best , it serves no purpose in bringing us any closer with God nor does it alter the prayer outcome one way or the other. So I still wonder what is the point?
I just noticed "raisin" holy hands...are they California Raisins?
I may sound conflicted WhiteDove, but I think you raise some good points. I see "decent and in order" as sound advice in an environment where people come to pray and worship God together. Paul had a reason for writing it to the Corinthians. When God's people fellowship together there should be an awareness of the honor and dignity of such an event as well as the joy, the happiness of it all. It shouldn't be cold or sterile, but it shouldn't be a train wreck either.
In the church we've been attending off and on, the services run in sections. There is music at the start, singing. At some point the pastor welcomes everyone and may speak for a bit, and there's more music.
Not everyone does the hands thing. Some do at times. Most sing, some don't and just listen. I would say it's very open and enthusiatic, while being very peaceful and quite literally "decent and in order". That has a lot to do with the Pastor. There's a lot of people involved but he appears to be very aware and watchful without being overbearing. There's an air of respect, I'd call it.
EX10, that's interesting. It's always a matter of being engaged from the heart, isn't it?
That pesky decent and in order thing. During summer of '75 I had a job as a asst ranger in a state park in MI. The park was located near a small town. Other than work there was NOTHING to do....much.
So I got to know some of the other people who worked at the park. I even let 2 of them talk me into attending their churches. Big difference between the 2.
One church was weird. There were people making noises while the minister was supposed to be preaching. This guy down the pew from me would say, "PRAISE JESUS!!" every 2 minutes or so. Others were weeping and walking up to the front and kneeling and stuff. Then after the service was over they were like..."Hi, bless yiewww". Totally strange.
The other church was much more orderly. Lot more people too. I even still remember some of what the guy preached 30 yrs later. He read from the bible and related what he read with the times back then and after the service he met with me and said he's read the bible 22 times and it became more real to him each time he read it. I felt the presence of God in that church, but not in the other one.
I came to my first twig a little over a year after that summer. Never had a problem with the concept of decent and in order.
Socks For sure each church will differ in their services. I imagine most from a Way background will tend toward the in order meetings. Somehow I just can't picture Vince doing the preacher strut. LOL He could however use you in their praise band. As Lennon said once the sound they make is muzak to my ears. My take once you open up that can of worms then they all want out. I would not want the job of deciding who you allow and who you !@** off. In the case of the meeting I mentioned I had gone at considerable expense expecting a uplifting time I left early saddened by the event. I knew when the person in a ball on the floor was the speaker I was in trouble. Honestly I did not know whether to laugh or cry. For a moment the part in the class flashed before me but I decide not to walk down the isle and give him a kick. Probably a wise choice! It was sad though at least for me to see someone that was once someone that earned my respect in that state.
I missed the afternoon halftime show as I told the presenter that my heart just could not take it. So we came in late which I found to be as annoying and not a good solution either. Anyway for me I find it to be quite distracting particularly in a teaching.
hiya Dove!!!! You know I respect your opionion very much, (besides actually being quite fond of you :wub: ) but I have a hard time seeing the connection between "decent and in order" and choosing to raise one's hands instead of holding a songbook like we used to do.
I usually have my eyes closed anyway, and don't lift my hands too much cause my arms get tired. But hey, if someone wants to, I think it's a beautiful expression of submission, humility, and reverence. Besides being a few thousand year old tradition.
As far as the "holy hands" thing goes, you're right it's a "figure of speech" representing our cleanliness and purity before God.
I think I might have a tad bit of a problem with people laying on the floor, unless of course it's in the privacy of their own home. I actually like to lay on the floor and pray at home, but I wouldn't consider doing it in church.
Some people kneel when they pray, even in church. I don't have a problem with that either, as "bowing the knee" also is a time honored tradition of worship, sumission, humility. In fact, the word "worship" if memory serves me correctly, is also translated "to bow down."
We are made in the image and likeness of our Creator, and part of that image and likeness includes our emotional make-up. To have an emotional response to God our Father and Jesus our Lord is a very good thing. (See Bible.) And if someone wants to kneel, stand, lift their hands, sit, whatever, I doubt God has a problem with it.
I think maybe cultural considerations and tradition probably have more to do with this subject than we realize.
As always, my opinion. But I must say, I've been in gazillions of different kinds of worship meetings since leaving TWI. And I can only remember leaving because of what was going on, once. And that was a pentecostal church where people were getting "slain in the spirit." And it had absolutely nothing to do with where you put your hands. B)
I even visited Rev. Al Green's church in Memphis and I gotta tell you, it rocked. The praise and worship style was much more rambunctious than anything I was used to, but it was "decent and in order." And nobody there seemed to have a problem with it. My girlfriend and I were the only 2 white faces in the crowd that day, but I tell ya, if I lived in Memphis, I'd be tempted to go there regularly.
I think some people, when they hear mention of raisin holy hands, automatically jump to the stereotypical charistmatic church where people are dancing around and it is more like a circus. Some people have never visited churches where this may be done and don't realize that it can be done without the circus atmosphere and behavior (I refuse to use the d&o words). It's that "extreme" and "black & white thinking" that TWI ingrained in us that some people just can't get away from, I think.
People danced before the lord and there are lots of scriptures about singing, dancing and praising God - who knows what it was really like when they did that. Raising hands, as Bliss pointed out, is a natural gesture for some people and it's stifling to feel like you have to stand still and motionless when you're really enjoying the music. I think musicians like to look out and see that people are really getting into it and that their music is reaching them. I'll spend some time in the blueletterbible today and see what I can find on that.
(I refuse to use the d&o words). It's that "extreme" and "black & white thinking" that TWI ingrained in us that some people just can't get away from, I think.
Your choice Belle but may I point out it has nothin to do with the Way. As socks well noted it is a Biblical based idea not a Way black and white thinking issue!
Quote Socks:
I see "decent and in order" as sound advice in an environment where people come to pray and worship God together. Paul had a reason for writing it to the Corinthians. When God's people fellowship together there should be an awareness of the honor and dignity of such an event as well as the joy, the happiness of it all. It shouldn't be cold or sterile, but it shouldn't be a train wreck either.
but I have a hard time seeing the connection between "decent and in order" and choosing to raise one's hands instead of holding a songbook like we used to do.
Oh T the feeling is mutual.......
Well to start with holding a songbook has a purpose, keeping it open so you can see the words. Waving your hands however has none other than to distract the person next to you. It neither alters the prayer or song or accomplishes any purpose. By the way I never close my eyes when hands are flying it is a good way to get hit When hands are moving I look like like this :blink: When I close my eyes I look like this
If you reread my post i don't think I made a connection between the two actually . I did mention that I found a meeting to be not in order. Other than that I found the practice to be extraneous. Sorry but from what I have seen it just does not appear most times to be some inspired action but as I said a conditioned response. And in some cases nothing more than the Pharisees did to be seen as spiritual. Just me but I don't see any mention of Jesus waving hands or Peter or Paul when they prayed. So I have to ask myself why should I ? As I already posted it does nothing in regard to the prayer one way or the other. So what is the point? I would not stick my foot in the air either just because I can. Like I said once it starts where does it stop who decides what to do and not. What if everyone decided to do something that gave them an emotional high? Why it would be a circus!! which was what I saw in my opinion and I was not the only one either. It's pretty hard to focus on what is being prayed for also with several people chattering in your ear. Perhaps it's just a respectful thing to do like in a classroom or a meeting when someone is speaking normally the others listen. That said it’s a free country anyone can do as they please in certain parameters I suppose. People can wave hands ,curl up in a fetal ball, chant, pop beads, or pick their nose in the spirit just don't tell me it's biblical.
I
attended a meeting of ExWays that honestly I found to be very out of order. While one was praying others were waving hands in various manners, across from me was someone who I would guess was trying to set some sort of record for the number of times he could say Thank You Jesus in one prayer session. Back at the rear of the room was someone on the floor curled up in a ball mumbling to themselves. It was pathetic.
Even though the phrase "decently and in order" is used in the KJV, (it's translated "fitting and orderly way" in the NIV) it's not specifically defined what is "fitting and orderly." Could that possibly be because it could differ according to who, when, where? Or what type of meeting?
Maybe it's up to the people participating in the gathering what is "fitting?"
Some people like to fold their hands when they pray. A custom, by the way attributed to the Saxons in the 5th cent says Eidersheim. I wonder if anyone objected to that practice in the church when people first started doing it?
I mean, could one man's "fitting and orderly" possibly be another's indecent and disorderly? B)
And I'm not talking about waving my arms around. I think what we're talking about here is simply holding one's arms in a certain posture while singing/praying. See Mark's pic of the Chaldean Christian lady.
Wow, Finnegan doing the Doo. :blink: It's been a long time, but has it been THAT long? :)
I have to say I wouldn't enjoy that either, fine friend. :)
Couple more thoughts - AKA "to everything there is a season"....and really just a longer more boring version of what EX10 just posted.
the words decently and in order are used in the context of "charismata". Paul says "all things", and at the expense of bridging the PFAL gap, it begs the question "all WHAT things"? It's not a PFAL thing to want to determine that. A simple read of the english seems to say all the things he's been talking about. He's been describing the use of spiritual gifts/manifestations/stuff when the Corinthians come together and how they should be done. Obviously the orderliness of their use will contribute to how effective they are. If there's pandemonium, verbal pushing and shoving and inconsiderate activity the whole thing goes in the toilet. In general, as advice, sure. Don't wig out if it's not a Rave Party. Show some cool here.
In another place he talks about their eating together, another activity they shared. There he reminds them to basically not be respectors of people and social status. Indeed, Jesus taught the first shall be last, the meek will inherit the earth, to treat one another as we ourselves want to be treated and to be willing to forgive others their debts to us. Letting the rich and influential of the congregation have first dibs on the food must have sucked for everyone else. You get treated like crap everywhere else, and then you come to fellowship with your "family" and they make you move to the end of the line because you're poor. Have a nice day.
I don't doubt they partied at times. Sometimes celebration is in order, right? Authentic behavior is the key, to me.
Different activities have different appropriate practices. I'd say, the N.T. provides both instruction and direction. Some things - this is it. Other things, do it like this. We live 2000 years later in our own times and with our own lives. We have the opportunity to decide. There has to be room for flexibility. The stiff tree breaks in the wind and dies, where the palm tree bends and survives, nothing lost. I think some Christian thought misses that - I've read, spirit is like water. It moves in different ways in different forms but it finds it's way everywhere.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Thanks Bliss...but I'm ( Allan ), regular poster who has moved interstate, upgraded computer and server system and discovered that it was easier to re-register with G.S. again !!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
20
26
11
9
Popular Days
Feb 8
17
Feb 20
17
Feb 19
15
Feb 7
14
Top Posters In This Topic
ex10 20 posts
WhiteDove 26 posts
doojable 11 posts
allan w. 9 posts
Popular Days
Feb 8 2006
17 posts
Feb 20 2006
17 posts
Feb 19 2006
15 posts
Feb 7 2006
14 posts
ex10
Psalm 28:2
"Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place."
Psalm 63:4
"I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands."
Bliss,
There are more verses. The act of lifting up the hands was one of serveral ways to physically express worship. Others were/are "bowing the knee," a biggee, clapping, shouting, etc.
This whole subject can be a pretty exhaustive study. In fact, I have a friend who wrote her PHD in seminary on different worship styles throughout history. Pretty interesting stuff if one wants to take the time to learn about it.
And here's a verse I love: Psalm 141:2: "May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice."
Lovely words and expression of praise, methinks.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
moony3424
I know that I raise hands in worship (after studing those verses behind it). I don't know why they were so set against it and ignored those verses. It's not "religious", it's worship.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
There used to be a teaching about "what it really means",
I never understood it though.
Nobody could explain it clear enough.....................something like "lifting hands was not literal, that it was a figure of speech............."
Does anyone remember the illogic that was taught?
Also, I think it had to do with "contoling your emotions".
Unfortunately, many wafers ended up with NO emotion.
There is a difference between, controlling emotions or having them control you. In the Way we always took the extreme of one..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
The teaching I heard about it was that churches who do it today "bastardized" the real deal. TWI said that in Biblical times they raised holy hands as they sat on prayer mats, kind of in a yoga position with arms out, palms up.
I disagree with them totally. I equate raising holy hands while singing praises to God as a close experience to Him which is healing. It reminds me that He is there for me. It is wayyyyy better than SIT imho because it seems like a two-way relationship instead of a one-way like SIT is.
Quote by Bliss:"Also, I think it had to do with "contoling your emotions".
Unfortunately, many wafers ended up with NO emotion.
There is a difference between, controlling emotions or having them control you. In the Way we always took the extreme of one.."
That is a sad, sad part of twi. There was no emotion because it represented weakness. I enjoy song worship as a way to connect with God. Sometimes there are tears. Some tears are joyful, and some are sorrowful. I think I have learned to be a real person instead of a waybot through this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Raising hands is an ancient posture of prayer that pre-dates Christianity.
The above picture was a drawing in the Roman catacombs. As was this one:
This one was from pagan Rome:
from Roman-occupied Egypt:
to this day (an Iraqi Chaldean Catholic woman):
A traditional Greek Orthodox icon:
ou can read the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Orans, the prayer posture with raised hands...a lot of the history and iconography...
There is also the following:
The Orans position (Latin for "praying") or some variation of it, was common to almost all ancient religions as an outward sign of supplicating God (or if a pagan religion, the gods). Consider what we do when we plead with someone. We might put our arms out in front of us as if reaching for the person and say "I beg you, help me." This seems to be a natural human gesture coming from deep within us - like kneeling to adore or to express sorrow. Now, turn that reach heavenwards and you have the Orans position.
The ancient monuments of Christianity, such as the tombs in the catecombs, often show someone in the Orans position supplicating God, to show that the prayers of the Church accompany the person in death.
I could understand why LCM wouldn't approve: it is far too "Catholic" related...and that simply wouldn't do!
Pics linked per "Fair Use" doctrine for educational purposes. 17 U.S.C. 107
Source URLs: www.pbs.org; ist-socrates.berkeley.edu; www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk; www4.point.ne.jp; act-intl.org; www.kathrinburleson.com
On edit: to add legal disclaimer.
Edited by markomalleyLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Bliss, for some reason I want to say this went back to the Way's view of "holy rollers", and what people in some churches did when they spoke in tongues. Gettin' crazy, jumping around, possess-o, that stuff. Can't quite place it though and that explanation would be pretty old. I think there was a connection made there between the two that "queered" the whole thing, like "oh glawry Pete, I'm so full o' the Lawd I just gotta raise my hands and pray-uz Him I can' he'p myself!!"....lack of control. I think VPW viewed it like an unauthorized bathroom break, maybe.
I think one of the attractive things about the early Way was that there weren't a lot of rituals attached on to the fellowship. Sit on the floor, sit on a chair, sit in a church, meeting room, outside, whevever. Outside of the things that were believed to be important elements of the faith, there wasn't an enforced order of service or specific way to do things. Georgraphically and culturally there was flexibility.
Plus, I've said it before, I first went to the Way Nash in 1970, couple times that years for a few weeks and the SNS's were hot deals in those days. Dororthy and Rhoda pumping the keyboards..."I SAW THE LIGHT!".....VPW doing the Preacher's Strut at the podium, his hair and tie all over the place by the time he'd be done. Not all the time, but it could get going as I recall. The people from the Ohio area that went ranged from quiet in the seat types to people shoutin' AMEN! and GLORY! here and there. I still remember vividly an elderly woman slappin' her bible and clapping as VPW hit his mark on something and her yelling "Oh, he's so CUITE! He just loves the Lord!" When people woud "manifest" they'd get into it. Couple times heard people sing prophesy, out of nowhere. I'm serious - here I'm a long haired boy from the Left Coast and wondering what I've walked into.
So for a lot of people more introverted or less inclined to publis displayes of emotion it was very nice. It wasn't a church service where you bobbed up and down in a pew or on a kneeler for an hour, nor was it a deal where some preacher was in your face asking if you were saved or not. It could reflect who you are/were, not so much what someone else said you should or had to be. Others liked expression, and that could be there too. But if I look back to the early years, late 60's era, I think most of us weren't as inclined to the churchy hand raising stuff and more of a youthful response, informal, relaxed.
EX10, I love those verses you posted. I do agree, as I've grown and changed personally I see the need for meaningful ritual and expression of one's own thoughts and convictions. The churches I've been to that have people "raising hands" are very joyful celebrations of faith and prayer.
Being a musician, I can appreciate this. You've got your shoe-gazing types, your boppin' and rockin' types. There's nothing like throwing your head back and goin' for it. :) Or diggin' in for some serious arrangments.
I think it's like that.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I think the adversion went to the whole "decent and in order" concept. Problem was that while they were controlling worship they weren't controlling themselves...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
There's a verse in Timothy about raising holy hands. I was taught once that this was an orientalism referring to physically expressing forgiveness, or something like that. It's no substitute for SIT though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
I Timothy 1:8
"I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing."
I think the emphasis in this verse is on "holy." As Mark mentioned, in the earliest depictions we have of Christianity, lifting up the hands was standard operating prayer procedure.
Anyway, I find it ironic that a minitry who claimed to be patterened after "the 1st century Chrisitan Church" would so easily dismiss a very reverent and submissive prayer stance used by those who came before us. Not only dismiss it, but condemn those who want to. Wierd.
Socks, I too have some pretty fond memories of BRC services. :)
And I'm not a musician, but I am married to one, and I know standing up front playing your heart out and seeing the congregation have an emotional response to the worship can be pretty moving and inspiring all on its own.
To quote one of my favorite songwriters, "worship is more than a song..." I think God and the Lord appreciate it when we are fully engaged, body, soul, and spirit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
The church I currently attend is not charismatic by any stretch of the imagination, but there are a few people in the congregation (both contemporary and traditional services) who raise their hands. Even the pastor was doing it this Sunday during an awesome song we were singing.
I felt odd and found it very disturbing at first, but upon getting to know a few of the people and learning some of the songs better, I actually think it's pretty darn cool - not for me - but pretty darn cool and it "fits" with those personalities. I just kinda rock & tap my foot, but some people just stand there, some of the younger kids actually dance in place - it's really great to see people moving physically to the music comfortably.
It feels good to get excited about something! Like Bliss mentioned we raise our hands at football games and all kinds of other things. I don't typically do that - I usually jump up and down and "high five", so maybe that's why I don't feel the urge to raise my hands in church but to sway and bounce. :D
It's sooooo cool to be able to worship the way we want to and are comfortable doing! TWI stifled so much in us and made us little way-bots - it's nice to be my own Belle-bot enjoying the company of Bliss-bot, Socks-bot, ex10-bot, Mark-bot, Dooj-bot, Moony-bot and all the other unique and individual "bots" around here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
yeah, Belle, it's pretty cool to have the option.
I don't know what my thing is, but I often find myself getting teary eyed during prayer and worship. Good thing I'm not the only one in the crowd I hang with, so I don't have to feel like a total Geek. ^_^
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Where to even start with this?
The idea of lifting up hands seems to have picked up a lot of popularity in the last few years among Christian groups many who have not embraced it prior. Notably it seems that those who have embraced the Praise and Worship Songs as in the TV infomercials have also likewise imitated the actions they see there. Like a Pavlov Dog at the sound of the first few notes of Shine Jesus Shine the hands start moving like a referee making a holding call on the 40 yard line. Many people who for years had a fulfilled prayer life now seem to think that there is more to be done. Perhaps many think God is deaf and that He needs some sign language to hear them or maybe that like a motorist stranded in a blizzard we need to wave him down to get his attention.
Even ExWay groups like V. Finnegan's C.B.C. and Faithful Word Ministries have joined in the fad.
Some say it brings them closer to God but I thought in Ephesians it says that we already are.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:18,19
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
I would submit to you that if one does not feel close to God that it is not He that is lacking, perhaps it is you that moved away I don't know how you can get any closer than a habitation to God.
Well this new found phenomena raises a ton of questions.
WHY? - Why would you want to raise your hands during music or prayer?
Where?-Where is the Scriptural proof that we are given license to do this ?
What ? - What are Holy Hands? Do we have them?
When ? - If we have them when do we use them when we sing? Pray? teach? Read the Bible?
What ? - What does the Bible say about the subject in the Old and New Testaments?
As many have pointed out there are several references to lifting up hands in the Old Testament. Notably though they are limited to association with prayer. A specific physical posture has never been a requirement for acceptable prayer. Prayer can be made standing (1 Sam. 1:26), or kneeling (1 Kgs. 8:54). Sometimes petitions were offered from a prostrate position (1 Kgs. 18:42; Mk. 14:35). One might spread out his hands in prayer (1 Kgs. 8:22; Isa. 1:15), or lift them up (Job. 11:13-14; Psa. 63:4). But neither the place (public or private), nor posture, was a crucial element of the prayer. As Mark pointed out the lifting up of the hands as a gesture in prayer, however, has been a common, cultural format in many societies of the past, both pagan, Jewish, and Christian. But notable again is the fact that nowhere in scripture is this requested ,asked for, or mandated by God.
The "lifting up of holy hands is more than likely a carried over expression from the Old Testament. These passages of scripture illustrate the fact that in some cases the Hebrews held up their hands when praying. But as we have already seen such is not always the case as there were other postures of prayer also. This leads to the conclusion obviously that a particular posture in prayer was not a binding pattern nor mandated.
Holy Hands just what are they? Literally speaking there is no such thing as "holy hands" This as also noted is a figure of speech synecdoche (the part put for a whole) A quick look at Proverbs 6 will reveal where many body parts are used to metaphorically illustrate evil (a lying tongue, murderous hands, wicked heart, mischievous feet ect...) As in these verses where a part is put for the whole so it is in Timothy.
This leads us to the one and only one verse in the New Testament on the subject of lifting hands.
I Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Overlooking this figure of speech results in a problem in understanding of this verse. Also I would note that in this same chapter are some other verses that seem to be overlooked if one was taking this literally it's interesting what we pick and choose to use and throw away.
. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Timothy is a leadership or pastoral epistle mainly to men serving in the church probably written in 67 AD. To Timothy were given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church. Notably again they were simple, of an ethical nature not a hierarchical one. The point of this verse in Timothy is this. Those who lead in public worship must be holy men leading the church in the very highest spiritual quality. As also noted the emphasis is on the holy part.
In review we see that holding up of hands was one of many postures of prayer used by the Hebrews. Although used it was not requested or mandated by God anywhere in scripture. Thus we have no scriptural urgency to do so. That said men have done things to work out their own salvation for centuries. Man often feels he needs to help God out but then that is the point of Romans isn't it we were dead without hope certainly in no position to offer any form of help and yet we still try to do it our way at times. We see that holy hands in I Timothy the one scripture in the New Testament on this subject is a figure of speech addressed mainly to those leaders or pastor's leading a church. So is there anything intrinsically wrong with this practice? I'd say perhaps not but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do. The next question that begs to be asked is where does it stop? ..... and who makes these decisions in orderly worship?
I attended a meeting of ExWays that honestly I found to be very out of order. While one was praying others were waving hands in various manners, across from me was someone who I would guess was trying to set some sort of record for the number of times he could say Thank You Jesus in one prayer session. Back at the rear of the room was someone on the floor curled up in a ball mumbling to themselves. It was pathetic. Then add to the mix the Joyce Meyer crowd laughing in the spirit, a few people slapping their foreheads and chanting and what if we want to toss hymnals in the air too? So who decides? And where does it end? Hell let's toss in a few rattlers too!
What once started out as maybe an inspired action by some has now been religionized into a full three ring circus set to start on musical que. It's extraneous at best , it serves no purpose in bringing us any closer with God nor does it alter the prayer outcome one way or the other. So I still wonder what is the point?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
I just noticed "raisin" holy hands...are they California Raisins?
I may sound conflicted WhiteDove, but I think you raise some good points. I see "decent and in order" as sound advice in an environment where people come to pray and worship God together. Paul had a reason for writing it to the Corinthians. When God's people fellowship together there should be an awareness of the honor and dignity of such an event as well as the joy, the happiness of it all. It shouldn't be cold or sterile, but it shouldn't be a train wreck either.
In the church we've been attending off and on, the services run in sections. There is music at the start, singing. At some point the pastor welcomes everyone and may speak for a bit, and there's more music.
Not everyone does the hands thing. Some do at times. Most sing, some don't and just listen. I would say it's very open and enthusiatic, while being very peaceful and quite literally "decent and in order". That has a lot to do with the Pastor. There's a lot of people involved but he appears to be very aware and watchful without being overbearing. There's an air of respect, I'd call it.
EX10, that's interesting. It's always a matter of being engaged from the heart, isn't it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
That pesky decent and in order thing. During summer of '75 I had a job as a asst ranger in a state park in MI. The park was located near a small town. Other than work there was NOTHING to do....much.
So I got to know some of the other people who worked at the park. I even let 2 of them talk me into attending their churches. Big difference between the 2.
One church was weird. There were people making noises while the minister was supposed to be preaching. This guy down the pew from me would say, "PRAISE JESUS!!" every 2 minutes or so. Others were weeping and walking up to the front and kneeling and stuff. Then after the service was over they were like..."Hi, bless yiewww". Totally strange.
The other church was much more orderly. Lot more people too. I even still remember some of what the guy preached 30 yrs later. He read from the bible and related what he read with the times back then and after the service he met with me and said he's read the bible 22 times and it became more real to him each time he read it. I felt the presence of God in that church, but not in the other one.
I came to my first twig a little over a year after that summer. Never had a problem with the concept of decent and in order.
Edited by johniamLink to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Socks For sure each church will differ in their services. I imagine most from a Way background will tend toward the in order meetings. Somehow I just can't picture Vince doing the preacher strut. LOL He could however use you in their praise band. As Lennon said once the sound they make is muzak to my ears. My take once you open up that can of worms then they all want out. I would not want the job of deciding who you allow and who you !@** off. In the case of the meeting I mentioned I had gone at considerable expense expecting a uplifting time I left early saddened by the event. I knew when the person in a ball on the floor was the speaker I was in trouble. Honestly I did not know whether to laugh or cry. For a moment the part in the class flashed before me but I decide not to walk down the isle and give him a kick. Probably a wise choice! It was sad though at least for me to see someone that was once someone that earned my respect in that state.
I missed the afternoon halftime show as I told the presenter that my heart just could not take it. So we came in late which I found to be as annoying and not a good solution either. Anyway for me I find it to be quite distracting particularly in a teaching.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
hiya Dove!!!! You know I respect your opionion very much, (besides actually being quite fond of you :wub: ) but I have a hard time seeing the connection between "decent and in order" and choosing to raise one's hands instead of holding a songbook like we used to do.
I usually have my eyes closed anyway, and don't lift my hands too much cause my arms get tired. But hey, if someone wants to, I think it's a beautiful expression of submission, humility, and reverence. Besides being a few thousand year old tradition.
As far as the "holy hands" thing goes, you're right it's a "figure of speech" representing our cleanliness and purity before God.
I think I might have a tad bit of a problem with people laying on the floor, unless of course it's in the privacy of their own home. I actually like to lay on the floor and pray at home, but I wouldn't consider doing it in church.
Some people kneel when they pray, even in church. I don't have a problem with that either, as "bowing the knee" also is a time honored tradition of worship, sumission, humility. In fact, the word "worship" if memory serves me correctly, is also translated "to bow down."
We are made in the image and likeness of our Creator, and part of that image and likeness includes our emotional make-up. To have an emotional response to God our Father and Jesus our Lord is a very good thing. (See Bible.) And if someone wants to kneel, stand, lift their hands, sit, whatever, I doubt God has a problem with it.
I think maybe cultural considerations and tradition probably have more to do with this subject than we realize.
As always, my opinion. But I must say, I've been in gazillions of different kinds of worship meetings since leaving TWI. And I can only remember leaving because of what was going on, once. And that was a pentecostal church where people were getting "slain in the spirit." And it had absolutely nothing to do with where you put your hands. B)
I even visited Rev. Al Green's church in Memphis and I gotta tell you, it rocked. The praise and worship style was much more rambunctious than anything I was used to, but it was "decent and in order." And nobody there seemed to have a problem with it. My girlfriend and I were the only 2 white faces in the crowd that day, but I tell ya, if I lived in Memphis, I'd be tempted to go there regularly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
I think some people, when they hear mention of raisin holy hands, automatically jump to the stereotypical charistmatic church where people are dancing around and it is more like a circus. Some people have never visited churches where this may be done and don't realize that it can be done without the circus atmosphere and behavior (I refuse to use the d&o words). It's that "extreme" and "black & white thinking" that TWI ingrained in us that some people just can't get away from, I think.
People danced before the lord and there are lots of scriptures about singing, dancing and praising God - who knows what it was really like when they did that. Raising hands, as Bliss pointed out, is a natural gesture for some people and it's stifling to feel like you have to stand still and motionless when you're really enjoying the music. I think musicians like to look out and see that people are really getting into it and that their music is reaching them. I'll spend some time in the blueletterbible today and see what I can find on that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Well to start with holding a songbook has a purpose, keeping it open so you can see the words. Waving your hands however has none other than to distract the person next to you. It neither alters the prayer or song or accomplishes any purpose. By the way I never close my eyes when hands are flying it is a good way to get hit
When hands are moving I look like like this :blink: 
When I close my eyes I look like this 
If you reread my post i don't think I made a connection between the two actually . I did mention that I found a meeting to be not in order. Other than that I found the practice to be extraneous. Sorry but from what I have seen it just does not appear most times to be some inspired action but as I said a conditioned response. And in some cases nothing more than the Pharisees did to be seen as spiritual. Just me but I don't see any mention of Jesus waving hands or Peter or Paul when they prayed. So I have to ask myself why should I ? As I already posted it does nothing in regard to the prayer one way or the other. So what is the point? I would not stick my foot in the air either just because I can. Like I said once it starts where does it stop who decides what to do and not. What if everyone decided to do something that gave them an emotional high? Why it would be a circus!! which was what I saw in my opinion and I was not the only one either. It's pretty hard to focus on what is being prayed for also with several people chattering in your ear. Perhaps it's just a respectful thing to do like in a classroom or a meeting when someone is speaking normally the others listen. That said it’s a free country anyone can do as they please in certain parameters I suppose. People can wave hands ,curl up in a fetal ball, chant, pop beads, or pick their nose in the spirit just don't tell me it's biblical.
I
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Even though the phrase "decently and in order" is used in the KJV, (it's translated "fitting and orderly way" in the NIV) it's not specifically defined what is "fitting and orderly." Could that possibly be because it could differ according to who, when, where? Or what type of meeting?
Maybe it's up to the people participating in the gathering what is "fitting?"
Some people like to fold their hands when they pray. A custom, by the way attributed to the Saxons in the 5th cent says Eidersheim. I wonder if anyone objected to that practice in the church when people first started doing it?
I mean, could one man's "fitting and orderly" possibly be another's indecent and disorderly? B)
And I'm not talking about waving my arms around. I think what we're talking about here is simply holding one's arms in a certain posture while singing/praying. See Mark's pic of the Chaldean Christian lady.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Probably because many of their songs were not condusive to 'raising hands' 'waving of hands'
unlike the praise and worship music today !
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Wow, Finnegan doing the Doo. :blink: It's been a long time, but has it been THAT long? :)
I have to say I wouldn't enjoy that either, fine friend. :)
Couple more thoughts - AKA "to everything there is a season"....and really just a longer more boring version of what EX10 just posted.
the words decently and in order are used in the context of "charismata". Paul says "all things", and at the expense of bridging the PFAL gap, it begs the question "all WHAT things"? It's not a PFAL thing to want to determine that. A simple read of the english seems to say all the things he's been talking about. He's been describing the use of spiritual gifts/manifestations/stuff when the Corinthians come together and how they should be done. Obviously the orderliness of their use will contribute to how effective they are. If there's pandemonium, verbal pushing and shoving and inconsiderate activity the whole thing goes in the toilet. In general, as advice, sure. Don't wig out if it's not a Rave Party. Show some cool here.
In another place he talks about their eating together, another activity they shared. There he reminds them to basically not be respectors of people and social status. Indeed, Jesus taught the first shall be last, the meek will inherit the earth, to treat one another as we ourselves want to be treated and to be willing to forgive others their debts to us. Letting the rich and influential of the congregation have first dibs on the food must have sucked for everyone else. You get treated like crap everywhere else, and then you come to fellowship with your "family" and they make you move to the end of the line because you're poor. Have a nice day.
I don't doubt they partied at times. Sometimes celebration is in order, right? Authentic behavior is the key, to me.
Different activities have different appropriate practices. I'd say, the N.T. provides both instruction and direction. Some things - this is it. Other things, do it like this. We live 2000 years later in our own times and with our own lives. We have the opportunity to decide. There has to be room for flexibility. The stiff tree breaks in the wind and dies, where the palm tree bends and survives, nothing lost. I think some Christian thought misses that - I've read, spirit is like water. It moves in different ways in different forms but it finds it's way everywhere.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Thanks Bliss...but I'm ( Allan ), regular poster who has moved interstate, upgraded computer and server system and discovered that it was easier to re-register with G.S. again !!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.