**CAVEAT. I AM NOT TRYING TO RECRUIT YOU TO GO INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. JUST WANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL ADVICE**
I think that GreasyTech has a really good question...why do you want to find a church?
If you've just had a thought 'Gee, I'd really like to find a church to go to,' without answering that underlying question, then you may never, ever be satisfied...
So let's look at some of the possible answers:
You want a nice group of people to associate with in a relatively 'clean' environment.
You want to worship God in a valid fashion.
You want to get involved in the social ministries of some church and help the community.
You want to have a forum within which you'll be able learn and/or teach the Bible.
You have kids and want those kids to have a nice group of kids that have some kind of moral structure.
etc.
etc.
etc.
Any of those are valid areas of concern...and you may have one or more of them or may have a reason I haven't listed at all.
First, there are some theological issues that you will have to either deal with or will have to have to ignore. There are a few marks of Christianity that are out there that the vast, vast majority of groups believe.
The trinity
Water baptism admittedly, there are differences whether the baptism is considered a sacrament or an affirmation/ordinance, but baptism is done one way or the other
The destination of the soul after death
Your choices are extremely limited if you choose neither to subscribe to, or are able to ignore those three basic marks (particularly the Trinity):
Jehovah's Witness
Oneness Pentacostal (practice water baptism, in Jesus name only)
Unitarian-Universalist (not Christian, but a group of nice, accepting people_
Christian Scientist
And a few others...
And so, you can either ignore it or you can find one of these churches that agree with those perculiarities that distinguished TWI, or you will have to deal with those issues. (Or just stay away)
If you are simply looking for a church as a social exercise, there are a huge number of groups out there that provide that kind of environment. A lot of them out there mostly preach "positive thinking," "God loves you," "do good by others," and so on and really don't get into any kind of deep theology. There are a lot of good folks in those churches. And as long as you keep the TWI-unique beliefs to yourself, you're not going to run into issues with them.
If you are looking for study/worship experiences or if you have kids that you want to get some religious formation, you'll have to deal with the theological issues.
On that subject: I was where you are now about 8 years ago. I wanted to get back into church after being gone from TWI for years, being disgusted by the offshoots I'd seen, and so on. Maybe a nice Methodist, Lutheran, or UCC church. No interest in a fundamentalist church or a Pentacostal type church, of course (not after TWI). However, I'd allowed TWI to be able to knock enough holes in all of the issues I identified above and had 'learned' the TWI theology so well that it was tough to consider that they might be wrong. Repeatedly in the years after leaving TWI, I'd go through the 'proofs' that were shown in books like ADAN, JCNG, etc. and saw that, using Wierwille's methodology, he built his case.
Something happened about 8 years ago, though, and I decided to re-look at the key 'marks' of TWI (JCNG, ADAN, RHSN, PFAL, etc.) through a different prism: I decided to see if I could prove the traditional orthodoxy that these TWI 'marks' displaced could be proven. I reasoned with myself that those orthodox 'marks' had been in place for centuries before Wierwille. Many heroes celebrated in twi (Luther, Bullinger, etc) were always celebrated with the caveat, 'except they believed in the Trinity...,' 'they were great, but fear kept them from acknowledging that JC was not God,' etc....Well, I let myself consider the fact that maybe these great men were correct and VPW was wrong...(dangerous thought, I know). So, I decided to examine those doctrines through the prism of themselves. In other words, not can the doctrines be disproven by examining isolated scriptures, but can the doctrines be substantiated in scripture...and can the isolated verses be understood in light of these doctrines? And I found out that they could. But, as with everything, YMMV (your mileage may vary).
The point is that you can, if you're willing, come up with an understanding that they (regular churches) could actually be right!
Now as to what type of church. That is as much a matter of style as anything. I personally prefer the beauty of a nice liturgical service. And, in fact, even though I am Catholic, the Latin Rite liturgy is not my preference: I actually prefer the beauty of the Eastern churches. There is a tremendous amount of symbolism in the services that, if you understand the significance of the symbols, makes for a tremendously rich worship experience. However, I fully acknowledge that some people don't feel comfortable with the liturgical worship style. Once again, it's something that (imho) for a person in your position, is a matter of comfort. The only advice I'd give is to:
understand the nature of the liturgy used -- there are plenty of resources on the web to explain any liturgy used in by any church in this country. If not a liturgical service, try to understand the order of how they worship.
Whether liturgical or not, once you understand what is going on, you need to feel comfortable with it. All should be 'decent and in order' (IMHO)
Anyway, hope this helps!
(btw, if you want something that comes close to resembling the 'first century church,' I'd suggest finding either a Chaldean church, or if one of those is not near where you live, a Maronite or Melkite church. The Chaldeans are from Mesopotamia (Aramaic), the Maronites (Syriac) and Melkites (Greek) are both from Antioch. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it is very interesting to see how their liturgies operate)
Yea, what he(Mark) said, is what I was telling you.
Love your posts Mark, btw, of course, no Catholic church for me..........................
You are right about the "ignoring" thing...
You either get involoved, except it/learn why etc... or go to the few out there that are pretty much "labeled" cultish.
I presently am in a Baptist bible class, and learning stuff about humility and love that I never truly experienced in the Way (YMMV).
I say truly, because, isolated occurances of this with great people in the Way did happen, but it was NOT the norm in the 90's and certainly not encouraged by examples of the leaders.
I have not addressed a lot of these issues yet, because it is all to new for us.(baptism, trinity, life after death), and honestly, right now, I don't care!
I just wanted to "see" if all that they way said about "others" was true........
On my way towards switching churches recently, I visited four other churches and settled on a very small one about 45 miles away.
It is Trinitarian, Calvinistic and covenantal in theology – quite far removed from the Unitarianism, Socinianism, freewill-ism, dispensationalism and Charismatic practices (theologically, I am not a cessationist, but I cannot stand to be around Charismatic groups) that might be expected to attract ex-Wayfers.
The denomination’s web page is http://www.opc.org , but I think it unlikely that there are more than a very few ex-Wayfers on the planet that would find the OPC’s theology to be "something that fits."
On my way towards switching churches recently, I visited four other churches and settled on a very small one about 45 miles away.
It is Trinitarian, Calvinistic and covenantal in theology – quite far removed from the Unitarianism, Socinianism, freewill-ism, dispensationalism and Charismatic practices (theologically, I am not a cessationist, but I cannot stand to be around Charismatic groups) that might be expected to attract ex-Wayfers.
The denomination’s web page is http://www.opc.org , but I think it unlikely that there are more than a very few ex-Wayfers on the planet that would find the OPC’s theology to be "something that fits."
What? PCUSA got too PC for you?
I sympathize completely!
But don't sell ex-Wayfers short. After all...we are both ex-Wayfers...
My parents encouraged me to "find a church home" when I left TWI. I was in no way ready or willing to look for one. I, however, wanted to honor my parents wishes and decided to visit a few just so I could tell them that I had looked and couldn't stand them for one reason or another. <_<
I was raised Southern Baptist so my first visit was to a Southern Baptist Church and that was a total joke - I don't have enough time to elaborate, but I will say that craiggers would have been proud of the preacher that day.
I visited a Presbyterian Church that I really enjoyed, but not one person spoke to me even after visiting several times - I didn't want to be "love bombed" but I didn't want to be ignored either. It was also a little smaller than I was comfortable with and they only sang "modern" songs (I like the old hymns).
I had worked with a gal who spoke glowingly about her church and her minister and was a little turned off because she was so involved with the church, but after visiting several other churches I decided to hunt her down and "try" her church. I did and went to the "Celebration" service with her, which is their contemporary music service. I also visited their "traditional" service and got to hear the angelic choir and sing my favorite old hymns.
I was looking for some reason to dismiss this church as well. I really wanted an excuse to not go back, but I honestly didn't find one and when I thought about it, I really did enjoy being there. I like the people and I like that they don't think they have a corner market on the truth. I like that they do things with other churches and other denominations. I like that they have enough activities for someone to find something they would like to do but without the pressure to do so. I truly does cultivate "auxano" growth on an individual level. I actually like the messages each Sunday, too. :)
Doctrinally, I could certainly find things I disagree with. But, honestly, does ANYONE agree 100% with 100% of their church doctrine? The things that I'm still questioning and working out in my head - the things I may disagree with them on - the "other" things I study - none of those are an issue unless I make it so. Besides that, my thoughts on those subjects could change - some are doubtful to change, but "never say never" as Mama always says. :D
I'm learning to not be so judgemental and to be more tolerant of others' beliefs and still be able to enjoy their company and what they DO have to offer. It's so much easier and free-er and more peaceful to do so, imo.
Mark always has great posts and GT's question is bang on, imo. Why do you want to find a church? What do you want in a church? Are you looking for needs and companionship that can be found outside of a church? There's just lots of questions and each person's answers are unique to that individual/family.
Good luck to you! Let us know how the search goes.
Well, Sunday evening My husband and I went back to the church we were attending. We had made an appt.
with the adult councelor to discuss the issue on baptizm. WOW... How did I not see those scriptures?
He also had lived in Ohio and new much about twi. But, he wasn't really judgemental about them. Although, he felt sorry about what had happened to me and so many others.
My children love it there and we're going to stay and give a good shot.
And we will be getting baptized too I'll keep you posted :)
Well, Sunday evening My husband and I went back to the church we were attending. We had made an appt.
with the adult councelor to discuss the issue on baptizm. WOW... How did I not see those scriptures?
He also had lived in Ohio and new much about twi. But, he wasn't really judgemental about them. Although, he felt sorry about what had happened to me and so many others.
My children love it there and we're going to stay and give a good shot.
And we will be getting baptized too I'll keep you posted :)
Congratulations!!
I hope all works out well for you with this group!
Awesome, Sunnyfla!! I'm so happy for you! I'm also glad that they are willing to sit down with you and address your concerns and issues. That's excellent! TWI only pretends to do that, most churches these days really do actually do that. I've also found that they're okay with you not agreeing with them wholeheartedly. They just want what's best for you at where ever you're at in your life.
I was at work yesterday, and there's this friend of mine that goes to the Church of Christ. She was raised in that faith. She REALLY wanted me to attend there last Sunday. She even had folks looking out for me. She attends one about 1hour north of me, but there's another one about 10 mins from where I live. I told her that I was going to stick with where I was at and shared with her about our meeting on Sunday. She said that her church would've baptized us there on the spot <_< . She's really nice too and she means well. She then shared the verse Luke21:8
Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many
shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;
and the time draweth near: go ye not there-
fore after them.
I wasn't quite sure why she had shown me that particular verse. But, right before she did that, I was telling her IMO about why VPW made such a stink about water baptizm. Why did he do that???? I asked myself on Sunday :unsure: Well,.. Water baptizm wouldn't have been conveniant with the Way fellowships.
1) We didn't have a church to go to that had a built in tank to be emmersed in
2) We couldn't do it in the twig coord. bathtub
3) Couldn't rely on swimming pools, especially if you live in the Northern states.
So, why not make water baptizm obsolete, and just teach the importance of S.I.T to make things simpler for the in home fellowships.
Now, thats what I came up with while I was RELEARNING about baptizm on Sunday. LOL....... I'm not saying that was VP's intent, but I do know that he had to change a few things doctinally to make himself appear to know more than the average Christain back in his day and time. Thats what cult leaders do, and that's why he convinced us all to follow his ways and not the ways of Jesus Christ!
Hmmm.... It could've been his intent, but who knows. :)
So, I think my friend was sharing that verse because of what I shared with her and not because I was attending a different church than her :)
I was at work yesterday, and there's this friend of mine that goes to the Church of Christ. She was raised in that faith. She REALLY wanted me to attend there last Sunday. She even had folks looking out for me. She attends one about 1hour north of me, but there's another one about 10 mins from where I live. I told her that I was going to stick with where I was at and shared with her about our meeting on Sunday. She said that her church would've baptized us there on the spot <_ . she really nice too and means well. then shared the verse luke21:8>
Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many
shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;
and the time draweth near: go ye not there-
fore after them.
I wasn't quite sure why she had shown me that particular verse.
Hi Sunny!
(For the purposes of this discussion, remember that I am not a fundamentalist, please).
She was taking a verse out of its context in order to show that you were being deceived. A horrible misuse of the scriptures, imho.
Let's look at the overall context of this section of scripture...
Luk 20:45 And in the hearing of all the people he said to his disciples,
Luk 20:46 "Beware of the scribes, who like to go about in long robes, and love salutations in the market places and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts,
Luk 20:47 who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation."
Luk 21:1 He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury;
Luk 21:2 and he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins.
Luk 21:3 And he said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them;
Luk 21:4 for they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all the living that she had."
Luk 21:5 And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said,
Luk 21:6 "As for these things which you see, the days will come when there shall not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, "Teacher, when will this be, and what will be the sign when this is about to take place?"
Luk 21:8 And he said, "Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.
Luk 21:9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified; for this must first take place, but the end will not be at once."
Luk 21:10 Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
Luk 21:11 there will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 This will be a time for you to bear testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your minds, not to meditate beforehand how to answer;
Luk 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.
Luk 21:16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends, and some of you they will put to death;
Luk 21:17 you will be hated by all for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.
Luk 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.
Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it;
Luk 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written.
Luk 21:23 Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people;
Luk 21:24 they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
So we can see that the context starts off with a condemnation against those who flaunt themselves and, in a fashion, another statement against matierialism (the widow gave away her meager material wealth while the rich, while appearing to contribute much more, didn't even put a dent into their wealth).
As material wealth is mentioned, they talk about the adornments on the temple. He then transitions to a prophetic discourse about the destruction of the Temple (which we know now actually happened in 70 AD). In verse 8 (notice how the RSV is rendered differently than the KJV), he says that when the Temple is destroyed, there will be those that start screaming "The End Is Near" and for those disciples not to be decieved by those types (gee, sounds like a lot of "end time prophets" now, doesn't it?? ). He then goes into what is going to happen to them vice what will be happening during the actual 'end times.'
So we can see that this verse has nothing to do with what you are talking about, it, instead is a warning to not be deceived by all these types who start screaming the end is near. (Remember, no man knows the hour?)
But, right before she did that, I was telling her IMO about why VPW made such a stink about water baptizm. Why did he do that???? I asked myself on Sunday :unsure: Well,.. Water baptizm wouldn't have been conveniant with the Way fellowships.
1) We didn't have a church to go to that had a built in tank to be emmersed in
2) We couldn't do it in the twig coord. bathtub
3) Couldn't rely on swimming pools, especially if you live in the Northern states.
So, why not make water baptizm obsolete, and just teach the importance of S.I.T to make things simpler for the in home fellowships.
Now, thats what I came up with while I was RELEARNING about baptizm on Sunday. LOL....... I'm not saying that was VP's intent, but I do know that he had to change a few things doctinally to make himself appear to know more than the average Christain back in his day and time. Thats what cult leaders do, and that's why he convinced us all to follow his ways and not the ways of Jesus Christ!
Hmmm.... It could've been his intent, but who knows. :)
So, I think my friend was sharing that verse because of what I shared with her and not because I was attending a different church than her :)
I think your friend was sharing that verse with you as a little "Christianized" stab at the church you are attending, imho.
I was hopeing that she wasn't implying that. Although, that was my first impression. <_<
Well, hopefully what I showed you up there will allow you to properly instruct her on the actual meaning of that verse so that she doesn't mishandle it again in future...
I second that! Mark, you are definitely a superb uber asset around here! :)
Sunny, isn't it great to have those TWIt blinders off and more able to recognize those subtle attempts at manipulation, control and condescension? I also think your musings about vee pee and the purpose for doing away with baptism warrant more time in my wee widdle think tank. It could be a good thread all on it's own, imo.
I wasn't quite sure why she had shown me that particular verse. But, right before she did that, I was telling her IMO about why VPW made such a stink about water baptizm. Why did he do that???? I asked myself on Sunday :unsure: Well,.. Water baptizm wouldn't have been conveniant with the Way fellowships.
1) We didn't have a church to go to that had a built in tank to be emmersed in
2) We couldn't do it in the twig coord. bathtub
3) Couldn't rely on swimming pools, especially if you live in the Northern states.
So, why not make water baptizm obsolete, and just teach the importance of S.I.T to make things simpler for the in home fellowships.
Now, thats what I came up with while I was RELEARNING about baptizm on Sunday. LOL....... I'm not saying that was VP's intent, but I do know that he had to change a few things doctinally to make himself appear to know more than the average Christain back in his day and time. Thats what cult leaders do, and that's why he convinced us all to follow his ways and not the ways of Jesus Christ!
Hmmm.... It could've been his intent, but who knows. :)
So, I think my friend was sharing that verse because of what I shared with her and not because I was attending a different church than her :)
Not to discount what you came up with, but Scripture teaches that water was "John's baptism" and while I am not one to defend VPW I think he is right that tongues is a better gauge of whether one has been spirit baptized, not that I go around speaking in tongues all the time. If you read ACTS you will find that Peter saw that people had received holy spirit before getting dunked in the water and then remembered that the Lord called water immersion John's baptism.
Where I go to church they sprinkle and quite frankly I held out for a Jordan River baptism holding my husband's hand. I was unashamed and unapologetic about it to my ex-way friends and to my baptism buddies who couldn't believe I had never been baptized. When we sat down with Scriptures and I showed them why I hadn't done the water baptism, I never heard another peep out of them. I also do not believe that dunking qualified as going over to the dark side.
The problem that I have with anyoneinsisting upon water is the Scriptures that show all those people receiving the spirit with no water in sight. The problem I have with someone insisting that water is wrong is that people did receive the spirit in the presence of water...including the Lord himself. What that tells me is that both ways work. The spirit isn't dependent upon the water.
For me, waiting until the Jordan River made the ritual of water baptism far more meaningful for me at the point of my walk than what it would have meant had I experienced it as a child.
I started attending a non-denominational church in December. They claim their only mission is to bring people to a better relationship with Jesus Christ. The music is contemporary. The dress is casual. The love of God is evident in the people I have met
A baptism ceremony was held in February. I cringed in the weeks leading up to it... completely uncomfortable with TWI stuff in my head... completely wondering... right? or wrong?. No teachings on baptism were given in the weeks leading up to the ceremony. When dunkin day came, our pastor wore a baseball cap and football jersey for the teaching. Said he wears the colors of his teams because he's a sports fan and he loves his teams. Said that baptizm was an outward showing of your colors for Christ (IHO). He wears the colors because it's a showing that he's proud to be a follower of Jesus. He didn't say you "have" to be baptized. He said he baptizes people because it's a good way to show that you wear your spiritual colors... because it shows commoridity for whom you believe in. (Of course he read baptizm scripture.)
I'm not being fair to his teaching, so I'll stop now. It was a good teaching. Point is, I still don't know what is right, but I was happy to be able to watch people be baptized. I remember being happy for everyone, especially God, and thinking, even if wasn't the right thing to do, how could God NOT be pleased.
It's only fair to say I don't have corp training. I think anyone who was in the WC would have a more difficult time finding a church to fit on various levels. But the point is, I'm less caught up in the strictness of what is right and wrong.
In teachings reagarding the Trinity, I am not sure what is right and wrong. Do I dare even say I'm confused! For now, it's completely ok for me to say "I don't know." It's something I need to work for myself and my books await me.
Most churches don't come anywhere near perfect. I just needed a place to worship with people I felt comfortable with (tried a few of those churches where nobody talks to you). If I find myself getting filled up with TWI stuff, I focus on the main reason for being there and the other stuff fades.
Sounds like you found a decent church for now. I too have been hanging out in a non-denominational church. They believe baptism is an ordinance in the church but that it is not required for salvation. It is more like a step you take after being born again and making Jesus Christ Lord. You have to specifically request to be baptized. To me it felt like an important step to take after leaving twi --especially once I realized how much control I had allowed my leadership to have over me. I was a good twiggie and asked twig coordinator's approval on almost everything. (Even with my Way Corpse training.) I figure if one point of what I was taught in twi was wrong, (and the debt issue is my prime example) then I have to reevaluate EVERYTHING! And I cannot do that without being exposed to different opinions and teachings.
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GT
I think a good place to start is to ask why you are looking for a church?
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Sunnyfla
Why would you ask me that?
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WordWolf
Well, he might mean
"all churches are evil",
OR
he might mean
"By defining your needs/wants, you can better determine which churches
are best qualified to fill them."
I would ask "what are you looking for?"
If it's for "caring Christians",
you'll find them in better supply than twi has all over the place.
If it's for "manifestations of the spirit",
you'll want something charismatic or Pentecostal.
If it's for "doctrine I agree with,"
you'll want one of the splinter groups.
That's only a FEW examples.
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markomalley
Sunnyfla,
**CAVEAT. I AM NOT TRYING TO RECRUIT YOU TO GO INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. JUST WANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL ADVICE**
I think that GreasyTech has a really good question...why do you want to find a church?
If you've just had a thought 'Gee, I'd really like to find a church to go to,' without answering that underlying question, then you may never, ever be satisfied...
So let's look at some of the possible answers:
Any of those are valid areas of concern...and you may have one or more of them or may have a reason I haven't listed at all.
First, there are some theological issues that you will have to either deal with or will have to have to ignore. There are a few marks of Christianity that are out there that the vast, vast majority of groups believe.
Your choices are extremely limited if you choose neither to subscribe to, or are able to ignore those three basic marks (particularly the Trinity):
And so, you can either ignore it or you can find one of these churches that agree with those perculiarities that distinguished TWI, or you will have to deal with those issues. (Or just stay away)
If you are simply looking for a church as a social exercise, there are a huge number of groups out there that provide that kind of environment. A lot of them out there mostly preach "positive thinking," "God loves you," "do good by others," and so on and really don't get into any kind of deep theology. There are a lot of good folks in those churches. And as long as you keep the TWI-unique beliefs to yourself, you're not going to run into issues with them.
If you are looking for study/worship experiences or if you have kids that you want to get some religious formation, you'll have to deal with the theological issues.
On that subject: I was where you are now about 8 years ago. I wanted to get back into church after being gone from TWI for years, being disgusted by the offshoots I'd seen, and so on. Maybe a nice Methodist, Lutheran, or UCC church. No interest in a fundamentalist church or a Pentacostal type church, of course (not after TWI). However, I'd allowed TWI to be able to knock enough holes in all of the issues I identified above and had 'learned' the TWI theology so well that it was tough to consider that they might be wrong. Repeatedly in the years after leaving TWI, I'd go through the 'proofs' that were shown in books like ADAN, JCNG, etc. and saw that, using Wierwille's methodology, he built his case.
Something happened about 8 years ago, though, and I decided to re-look at the key 'marks' of TWI (JCNG, ADAN, RHSN, PFAL, etc.) through a different prism: I decided to see if I could prove the traditional orthodoxy that these TWI 'marks' displaced could be proven. I reasoned with myself that those orthodox 'marks' had been in place for centuries before Wierwille. Many heroes celebrated in twi (Luther, Bullinger, etc) were always celebrated with the caveat, 'except they believed in the Trinity...,' 'they were great, but fear kept them from acknowledging that JC was not God,' etc....Well, I let myself consider the fact that maybe these great men were correct and VPW was wrong...(dangerous thought, I know). So, I decided to examine those doctrines through the prism of themselves. In other words, not can the doctrines be disproven by examining isolated scriptures, but can the doctrines be substantiated in scripture...and can the isolated verses be understood in light of these doctrines? And I found out that they could. But, as with everything, YMMV (your mileage may vary).
The point is that you can, if you're willing, come up with an understanding that they (regular churches) could actually be right!
Now as to what type of church. That is as much a matter of style as anything. I personally prefer the beauty of a nice liturgical service. And, in fact, even though I am Catholic, the Latin Rite liturgy is not my preference: I actually prefer the beauty of the Eastern churches. There is a tremendous amount of symbolism in the services that, if you understand the significance of the symbols, makes for a tremendously rich worship experience. However, I fully acknowledge that some people don't feel comfortable with the liturgical worship style. Once again, it's something that (imho) for a person in your position, is a matter of comfort. The only advice I'd give is to:
Anyway, hope this helps!
(btw, if you want something that comes close to resembling the 'first century church,' I'd suggest finding either a Chaldean church, or if one of those is not near where you live, a Maronite or Melkite church. The Chaldeans are from Mesopotamia (Aramaic), the Maronites (Syriac) and Melkites (Greek) are both from Antioch. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it is very interesting to see how their liturgies operate)
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bliss
Sunny girlfriend,
Yea, what he(Mark) said, is what I was telling you.
Love your posts Mark, btw, of course, no Catholic church for me..........................
You are right about the "ignoring" thing...
You either get involoved, except it/learn why etc... or go to the few out there that are pretty much "labeled" cultish.
I presently am in a Baptist bible class, and learning stuff about humility and love that I never truly experienced in the Way (YMMV).
I say truly, because, isolated occurances of this with great people in the Way did happen, but it was NOT the norm in the 90's and certainly not encouraged by examples of the leaders.
I have not addressed a lot of these issues yet, because it is all to new for us.(baptism, trinity, life after death), and honestly, right now, I don't care!
I just wanted to "see" if all that they way said about "others" was true........
So far, they were wwwwwwayyyy off (no pun).
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markomalley
In all honesty, if it were closer, I would probably join the Maronite church :-O
But it's not...the nearest one is about 30 miles from my house. A little too far for getting involved in a parish...
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Sunnyfla
Ok. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.
Thank you Mark for your response. I have decided to give the church that I've been attending a chance.
Yes, I want a nice place for my husband and children to go to worship, praise, socialize and to be treated
with love and respect. Yes, doctinal issues are very important to me, as they were before I was with twi.
I just didn't know any better back then. My heart hasn't changed when it comes to knowing and loving God
and the integrety of His word. Although, I am more careful than before.
I just talked to the adult counselor at my church, and he was aware of twi. He was very loving and
understanding of my situation and is looking forward to meeting with my husband and I this Sun to talk
about some issues.
(((((bliss))))))
Thank you too. Your helping me get through a lot. Talk to you later.
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Cynic
On my way towards switching churches recently, I visited four other churches and settled on a very small one about 45 miles away.
It is Trinitarian, Calvinistic and covenantal in theology – quite far removed from the Unitarianism, Socinianism, freewill-ism, dispensationalism and Charismatic practices (theologically, I am not a cessationist, but I cannot stand to be around Charismatic groups) that might be expected to attract ex-Wayfers.
The denomination’s web page is http://www.opc.org , but I think it unlikely that there are more than a very few ex-Wayfers on the planet that would find the OPC’s theology to be "something that fits."
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markomalley
What? PCUSA got too PC for you?
I sympathize completely!
But don't sell ex-Wayfers short. After all...we are both ex-Wayfers...
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TheEvan
Gosh, I was unaware of the OPC. They are doctrinally to the "right" of the PCA it seems.
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Cynic
I had been attending a Baptist church. The other churches I checked out were all PCA ( http://pcanet.org ) churches.
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Belle
Sunnyfla,
My parents encouraged me to "find a church home" when I left TWI. I was in no way ready or willing to look for one. I, however, wanted to honor my parents wishes and decided to visit a few just so I could tell them that I had looked and couldn't stand them for one reason or another. <_<
I was raised Southern Baptist so my first visit was to a Southern Baptist Church and that was a total joke - I don't have enough time to elaborate, but I will say that craiggers would have been proud of the preacher that day.
I visited a Presbyterian Church that I really enjoyed, but not one person spoke to me even after visiting several times - I didn't want to be "love bombed" but I didn't want to be ignored either. It was also a little smaller than I was comfortable with and they only sang "modern" songs (I like the old hymns).
I had worked with a gal who spoke glowingly about her church and her minister and was a little turned off because she was so involved with the church, but after visiting several other churches I decided to hunt her down and "try" her church. I did and went to the "Celebration" service with her, which is their contemporary music service. I also visited their "traditional" service and got to hear the angelic choir and sing my favorite old hymns.
I was looking for some reason to dismiss this church as well. I really wanted an excuse to not go back, but I honestly didn't find one and when I thought about it, I really did enjoy being there. I like the people and I like that they don't think they have a corner market on the truth. I like that they do things with other churches and other denominations. I like that they have enough activities for someone to find something they would like to do but without the pressure to do so. I truly does cultivate "auxano" growth on an individual level. I actually like the messages each Sunday, too. :)
Doctrinally, I could certainly find things I disagree with. But, honestly, does ANYONE agree 100% with 100% of their church doctrine? The things that I'm still questioning and working out in my head - the things I may disagree with them on - the "other" things I study - none of those are an issue unless I make it so. Besides that, my thoughts on those subjects could change - some are doubtful to change, but "never say never" as Mama always says. :D
I'm learning to not be so judgemental and to be more tolerant of others' beliefs and still be able to enjoy their company and what they DO have to offer. It's so much easier and free-er and more peaceful to do so, imo.
Mark always has great posts and GT's question is bang on, imo. Why do you want to find a church? What do you want in a church? Are you looking for needs and companionship that can be found outside of a church? There's just lots of questions and each person's answers are unique to that individual/family.
Good luck to you! Let us know how the search goes.
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Sunnyfla
Well, Sunday evening My husband and I went back to the church we were attending. We had made an appt.
with the adult councelor to discuss the issue on baptizm. WOW... How did I not see those scriptures?
He also had lived in Ohio and new much about twi. But, he wasn't really judgemental about them. Although, he felt sorry about what had happened to me and so many others.
My children love it there and we're going to stay and give a good shot.
And we will be getting baptized too
I'll keep you posted :)
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markomalley
Congratulations!!
I hope all works out well for you with this group!
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Belle
Awesome, Sunnyfla!! I'm so happy for you! I'm also glad that they are willing to sit down with you and address your concerns and issues. That's excellent! TWI only pretends to do that, most churches these days really do actually do that. I've also found that they're okay with you not agreeing with them wholeheartedly. They just want what's best for you at where ever you're at in your life.
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Sunnyfla
Hey Mark and Belle
I was at work yesterday, and there's this friend of mine that goes to the Church of Christ. She was raised in that faith. She REALLY wanted me to attend there last Sunday. She even had folks looking out for me. She attends one about 1hour north of me, but there's another one about 10 mins from where I live. I told her that I was going to stick with where I was at and shared with her about our meeting on Sunday. She said that her church would've baptized us there on the spot <_< . She's really nice too and she means well. She then shared the verse Luke21:8
Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many
shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;
and the time draweth near: go ye not there-
fore after them.
I wasn't quite sure why she had shown me that particular verse. But, right before she did that, I was telling her IMO about why VPW made such a stink about water baptizm. Why did he do that???? I asked myself on Sunday :unsure: Well,.. Water baptizm wouldn't have been conveniant with the Way fellowships.
1) We didn't have a church to go to that had a built in tank to be emmersed in
2) We couldn't do it in the twig coord. bathtub
3) Couldn't rely on swimming pools, especially if you live in the Northern states.
So, why not make water baptizm obsolete, and just teach the importance of S.I.T to make things simpler for the in home fellowships.
Now, thats what I came up with while I was RELEARNING about baptizm on Sunday. LOL....... I'm not saying that was VP's intent, but I do know that he had to change a few things doctinally to make himself appear to know more than the average Christain back in his day and time. Thats what cult leaders do, and that's why he convinced us all to follow his ways and not the ways of Jesus Christ!
Hmmm.... It could've been his intent, but who knows. :)
So, I think my friend was sharing that verse because of what I shared with her and not because I was attending a different church than her :)
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markomalley
I was at work yesterday, and there's this friend of mine that goes to the Church of Christ. She was raised in that faith. She REALLY wanted me to attend there last Sunday. She even had folks looking out for me. She attends one about 1hour north of me, but there's another one about 10 mins from where I live. I told her that I was going to stick with where I was at and shared with her about our meeting on Sunday. She said that her church would've baptized us there on the spot <_ . she really nice too and means well. then shared the verse luke21:8>
Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many
shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;
and the time draweth near: go ye not there-
fore after them.
I wasn't quite sure why she had shown me that particular verse.
Hi Sunny!
(For the purposes of this discussion, remember that I am not a fundamentalist, please).
She was taking a verse out of its context in order to show that you were being deceived. A horrible misuse of the scriptures, imho.
Let's look at the overall context of this section of scripture...
So we can see that the context starts off with a condemnation against those who flaunt themselves and, in a fashion, another statement against matierialism (the widow gave away her meager material wealth while the rich, while appearing to contribute much more, didn't even put a dent into their wealth).
As material wealth is mentioned, they talk about the adornments on the temple. He then transitions to a prophetic discourse about the destruction of the Temple (which we know now actually happened in 70 AD). In verse 8 (notice how the RSV is rendered differently than the KJV), he says that when the Temple is destroyed, there will be those that start screaming "The End Is Near" and for those disciples not to be decieved by those types (gee, sounds like a lot of "end time prophets" now, doesn't it??
). He then goes into what is going to happen to them vice what will be happening during the actual 'end times.'
So we can see that this verse has nothing to do with what you are talking about, it, instead is a warning to not be deceived by all these types who start screaming the end is near. (Remember, no man knows the hour?)
But, right before she did that, I was telling her IMO about why VPW made such a stink about water baptizm. Why did he do that???? I asked myself on Sunday :unsure: Well,.. Water baptizm wouldn't have been conveniant with the Way fellowships.
1) We didn't have a church to go to that had a built in tank to be emmersed in
2) We couldn't do it in the twig coord. bathtub
3) Couldn't rely on swimming pools, especially if you live in the Northern states.
So, why not make water baptizm obsolete, and just teach the importance of S.I.T to make things simpler for the in home fellowships.
Now, thats what I came up with while I was RELEARNING about baptizm on Sunday. LOL....... I'm not saying that was VP's intent, but I do know that he had to change a few things doctinally to make himself appear to know more than the average Christain back in his day and time. Thats what cult leaders do, and that's why he convinced us all to follow his ways and not the ways of Jesus Christ!
Hmmm.... It could've been his intent, but who knows. :)
So, I think my friend was sharing that verse because of what I shared with her and not because I was attending a different church than her :)
I think your friend was sharing that verse with you as a little "Christianized" stab at the church you are attending, imho.
Sorry. <_>
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Sunnyfla
I was hopeing that she wasn't implying that. Although, that was my first impression. <_<
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markomalley
Well, hopefully what I showed you up there will allow you to properly instruct her on the actual meaning of that verse so that she doesn't mishandle it again in future...
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bliss
Mark~ you rock! (even though you're an RC)
Sunny dear, call me!
edited to fix my grammer(duh)
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Belle
I second that! Mark, you are definitely a superb uber asset around here! :)
Sunny, isn't it great to have those TWIt blinders off and more able to recognize those subtle attempts at manipulation, control and condescension? I also think your musings about vee pee and the purpose for doing away with baptism warrant more time in my wee widdle think tank. It could be a good thread all on it's own, imo.
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Tzaia
Not to discount what you came up with, but Scripture teaches that water was "John's baptism" and while I am not one to defend VPW I think he is right that tongues is a better gauge of whether one has been spirit baptized, not that I go around speaking in tongues all the time. If you read ACTS you will find that Peter saw that people had received holy spirit before getting dunked in the water and then remembered that the Lord called water immersion John's baptism.
Where I go to church they sprinkle and quite frankly I held out for a Jordan River baptism holding my husband's hand. I was unashamed and unapologetic about it to my ex-way friends and to my baptism buddies who couldn't believe I had never been baptized. When we sat down with Scriptures and I showed them why I hadn't done the water baptism, I never heard another peep out of them. I also do not believe that dunking qualified as going over to the dark side.
The problem that I have with anyone insisting upon water is the Scriptures that show all those people receiving the spirit with no water in sight. The problem I have with someone insisting that water is wrong is that people did receive the spirit in the presence of water...including the Lord himself. What that tells me is that both ways work. The spirit isn't dependent upon the water.
For me, waiting until the Jordan River made the ritual of water baptism far more meaningful for me at the point of my walk than what it would have meant had I experienced it as a child.
Tzaia
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Amazingrace
I started attending a non-denominational church in December. They claim their only mission is to bring people to a better relationship with Jesus Christ. The music is contemporary. The dress is casual. The love of God is evident in the people I have met
A baptism ceremony was held in February. I cringed in the weeks leading up to it... completely uncomfortable with TWI stuff in my head... completely wondering... right? or wrong?. No teachings on baptism were given in the weeks leading up to the ceremony. When dunkin day came, our pastor wore a baseball cap and football jersey for the teaching. Said he wears the colors of his teams because he's a sports fan and he loves his teams. Said that baptizm was an outward showing of your colors for Christ (IHO). He wears the colors because it's a showing that he's proud to be a follower of Jesus. He didn't say you "have" to be baptized. He said he baptizes people because it's a good way to show that you wear your spiritual colors... because it shows commoridity for whom you believe in. (Of course he read baptizm scripture.)
I'm not being fair to his teaching, so I'll stop now. It was a good teaching. Point is, I still don't know what is right, but I was happy to be able to watch people be baptized. I remember being happy for everyone, especially God, and thinking, even if wasn't the right thing to do, how could God NOT be pleased.
It's only fair to say I don't have corp training. I think anyone who was in the WC would have a more difficult time finding a church to fit on various levels. But the point is, I'm less caught up in the strictness of what is right and wrong.
In teachings reagarding the Trinity, I am not sure what is right and wrong. Do I dare even say I'm confused! For now, it's completely ok for me to say "I don't know." It's something I need to work for myself and my books await me.
Most churches don't come anywhere near perfect. I just needed a place to worship with people I felt comfortable with (tried a few of those churches where nobody talks to you). If I find myself getting filled up with TWI stuff, I focus on the main reason for being there and the other stuff fades.
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penguin
AmazingGrace,
Sounds like you found a decent church for now. I too have been hanging out in a non-denominational church. They believe baptism is an ordinance in the church but that it is not required for salvation. It is more like a step you take after being born again and making Jesus Christ Lord. You have to specifically request to be baptized. To me it felt like an important step to take after leaving twi --especially once I realized how much control I had allowed my leadership to have over me. I was a good twiggie and asked twig coordinator's approval on almost everything. (Even with my Way Corpse training.) I figure if one point of what I was taught in twi was wrong, (and the debt issue is my prime example) then I have to reevaluate EVERYTHING! And I cannot do that without being exposed to different opinions and teachings.
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