Outreach beyond vpw's congregation

[waysider]

Perhaps it's not an issue or a dodge. Neither organization is under any obligation to provide anything other than "directory" information about students who attended. Haven't they done that?

No. At least, not when I inquired some time ago.

[skyrider]

strange that Lakeland and Princeton won't return my emails inquiring about particular classes. I mean, come on the man has been dead since 1985. releasing the info without his permission is moot and unnecessary at best, and sounds like a cover-up so not to embarress the institutions' reputations. John Juddess, can you find out more info? Inquiring minds want to know the truth.

Perhaps they have old brochures in their library that outline what classes were necessary for a particular degree program. Or maybe they don't know what was required 50+ years ago. I sincerely doubt if Princeton is worried about its reputation - the guy did the work to get his graduate degree or Princeton wouldn't have conferred the degree.

Princeton is known for its critical/historical approach. It's no Moody Bible College.

The following post and link might be helpful.

Princeton Theological Seminary.....Click here

Good idea about setting the record straight.

I took some time to look into it, and it appears one can't make a blanket statement saying there is no connection at all or that the two are identical.

It's a little more complex than than.

I googled Princeton Theological Seminary.

First up was a Google map that appears to show the West Windsor Campus of the seminary located on the campus of Princeton University. and This is the website of Princeton Theological Seminary.

In the history of the school given on the site, I found the following:

Under "Campus Life," I found the following:

and then at the bottom of the page,

...

So it appears that Princeton Theological Seminary was founded as a part of Princeton University by the Presbyterian Church.

At major universities, it is common for them to have branches so large that they are referred to as "schools," not because they are entirely separate, unconnected institutions.

I also googled Princeton University and this is their website home page

If you clic on "Visiting Campus" and go to Campus Map you'll see the grounds of the seminary included, just as they are on the other map.

Noodling arond the Princeton University site, I took a look at their Religion Department. There, the graduate courses for this fall include classes on religions other than Christianity, so that would help understand why the Presbyterian Church would want to endow a separate school on campus for seminary instruction.

As I looked around the seminary site, a significant degree of independence from Princeton is apparent, perhaps due to the connection with the Presbyterian Church.

For example, the two have different chapels.

There is a separation between the faculties.

Princeton University is a secular institution whereas the seminary, of course, is not.

I would guess that keeping them separate has tax and other legal ramifications.

My guess would be they have separate books for financing.

On the Princeton University site, I searched for the theological seminary and This FAQ came up, which shows the extent of the division between the two. It says there is no "organic connection," we see they work together in other ways, for example students at the seminary can use the secular school's library.

I couldn't find whether seminary students can get into university keggers.

The university has other schools, such as the Princeton School of Architecture, which also has its own faculty and structure. My guess would be the school of architecture, though separate, is more closely tied to the rest of the university because it doesn't have the theological aspect.

Perhaps someone can dig deeper and find out if Princeton Theological Seminary doesn't have the rigorous academic standards that Princeton University does, which would gve merit to the implication that Wierwille got a masters from some slacker school glomming on to the name of Princeton just to make themselves look good.

That argument is eroded when we discover that a Masters Degree from the Princeton Theological Seminary is the highest qualification listed for an Associate Dean of Religious Life and the Chapel at Princeton.

So, what we see are the two schools are closely affiliated in some ways, but in others they are separated.

Ptrinceton University established the seminary, but it is separate in a number of ways and joined in a number of others.

It would be instructive to discover how Princeton Theological Seminary ranked academically with other seminaries in thecountry at the time V.P. was there, and see if he had a degree from a prestigious school or some fly-by-night rinky-dink institution whose students couldn't get into other, more selective seminaries.

And that is the crux of the matter, isn't it?

Was the man's masters degree from the seminary a significant academic achievement or not?

After all, the fact that Harvard Law School is not the same as Harvard doesn't make a degree from Harvard Law any less significant, does it?

Edited August 4, 2010 by skyrider

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

btw, check out similarities and differences on TWI and VPW found in Elena Scott Whitesides book, Uncle Harry Wierwille "autobiography", Mrs. Wierwille's "Born to Serve", Karl Kahler's TWI: the cult that snapped, and KS "Losing the Way", plus JohnJ's books and articles on Messiah/empire.net site. There are still details that are lacking. Also, too bad Dotsie was already suffering from Alzeimhers and couldn't freely give the true skivvy on TWI from 1961 on until her being sent to a nursing home. Will Karen, John Paul, or Sara ever write a true story on this topic, or will they be too ashamed to speak up and finally give minute details? Only God knows.

[waysider]

That's all fine and dandy, but, how do we even know for sure that VP actually earned a degree there if the institution won't, at the very least, confirm that fact?

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/2/2006 at 10:42 AM, WordWolf said:

Well, it DIDN'T.

He SAID it was the same program.

To claim it's the same program is as accurate as claiming his Kindergarten

was the same as his Doctorate program.

Based on WHAT? He JUST started READING the Bible!

Must have been all "music" and homiletics.

They provided the music, he provided the homiletics.

Before this, radio had Christian music, and had homiletics,

and had BOTH. (Fuller, for one.) NOTHING was original

in this, except adding vpw's name.

Lie.

TRUTH.

Must be harsh for the Sunday morning services of the past year-

he wasn't going to the Word for 2-3 new teachings a week.

He must have been getting material outside the Word-

that wasn't "NEW"-meaning he got them from somewhere ELSE

and taught them.

And, of course, the only people he could GET was young people,

and, having no background, they worked for FREE for experience,

and he was able to pad his OWN resume and add the show.

One young guy, four young women.

Hmmm........

WW, even as a young man, VPW knew he wasn't qualified to minister to others. Even then he knew he was a fake.

 

 

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/2/2006 at 10:42 AM, WordWolf said:

Well, it DIDN'T.

He SAID it was the same program.

To claim it's the same program is as accurate as claiming his Kindergarten

was the same as his Doctorate program.

Based on WHAT? He JUST started READING the Bible!

Must have been all "music" and homiletics.

They provided the music, he provided the homiletics.

Before this, radio had Christian music, and had homiletics,

and had BOTH. (Fuller, for one.) NOTHING was original

in this, except adding vpw's name.

Lie.

TRUTH.

Must be harsh for the Sunday morning services of the past year-

he wasn't going to the Word for 2-3 new teachings a week.

He must have been getting material outside the Word-

that wasn't "NEW"-meaning he got them from somewhere ELSE

and taught them.

And, of course, the only people he could GET was young people,

and, having no background, they worked for FREE for experience,

and he was able to pad his OWN resume and add the show.

One young guy, four young women.

Hmmm........

WW, I wonder how " young" the girls were.  One young man, and four young women??!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/2/2006 at 7:27 PM, ex10 said:

Geeze, justloafing, that's the million dollar question.

And unfortunately, it's one that we will never get the answer to, in this lifetime anyway.

So I guess we'll keep talking about it til the cows come home.

But hey, I'm a Texan. I can handle cows.

Ex10, I grew up on a farm, I know Cows--t when I see, or hear it.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/1/2006 at 3:33 PM, skyrider said:

Page 41

"Beginning with a radio broadcast on Saturday, October 3, 1942, Rev. Wierwille and his assembled youth group performed their first live radio production. Rev. Wierwille certainly didn't realize at the time that this program would launch a ministry which would change the lives of thousands. His first radio program was designed to teach principles of the abundant life "through musical performancs and scriptural messages." Dr. Wierwille later said, "I felt we had to do something to bless the people, and a radio broadcast might arouse some excitement and serve as outreach." The personal impact of such regular teaching and preaching, Dr. Wierwille explained, "was that it got me back to digging the Word.... That broadcast and the Sunday morning service made me, made me, go to the Word for two or three new teachings a week. It got me into the Word, got me growing in it and kept me fluid.

"We were pioneers in using people for our performances," he continued. "All of the other religious programs used adults. But I thought if we started with young people, it would grow into something and the adults might catch on."

[Pictured in the first broadcast of Vesper Chimes.......One man, one young female pianist, three young female singers and Mrs. Wierwille.]

Sky, interesting.  I think he used young people, because he didn't want to pay them.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

On 8/4/2010 at 6:18 PM, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

btw, check out similarities and differences on TWI and VPW found in Elena Scott Whitesides book, Uncle Harry Wierwille "autobiography", Mrs. Wierwille's "Born to Serve", Karl Kahler's TWI: the cult that snapped, and KS "Losing the Way", plus JohnJ's books and articles on Messiah/empire.net site. There are still details that are lacking. Also, too bad Dotsie was already suffering from Alzeimhers and couldn't freely give the true skivvy on TWI from 1961 on until her being sent to a nursing home. Will Karen, John Paul, or Sara ever write a true story on this topic, or will they be too ashamed to speak up and finally give minute details? Only God knows.

also Penworks book, Undertow

[Grace Valerie Claire]

4 hours ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

also Penworks book, Undertow

Thomas, I cannot image having a father like VPW. I think if VPW had been my father, I think I might have ended up in prison.  

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

If either Ernest or VPW had screamed at me,they would have been beheaded, belted naked, or murdered. But I no longer would act that way. Violence between parent and child never solves anything.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

BTW, who moves from Payne to New Knoxville in a blizzard? Did the house in Payne, was it rented? Did the landlord set a date for the Wierwilles to move out?

[Grace Valerie Claire]

48 minutes ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

BTW, who moves from Payne to New Knoxville in a blizzard? Did the house in Payne, was it rented? Did the landlord set a date for the Wierwilles to move out?

Tom, only an idiot would move in a blizzard.  Normal people usually stay indoors, out of harm's way.