If twi was and is about money. Why the purge of people whether they where labled possesed or homo's or for what ever reason? I know POP took a great toll on twi but the "great purge" had not yet taken place. Was it lcm's weird and paranoid mind? He had to see the money slipping away. Did he really believe he was doing Gods work and not care if he ended up with the homeless just so Gods Word would live? If he was being a buisness man? What sence did it make?
I also know the the defection of twi was when the Allen and twi law suite took place but why kick all those good green backs(money) out of twi?
With vpw, I think at least a lot of it was about money and comfort.
(Based on his life story & personal history.)
He wanted a comfortable living, respect, and to not do farm labour.
(IMHO.)
With lcm, remember HIS life-story.
lcm was recruited clear out of college.
lcm was impressed by vpw, and offered him unquestioning loyalty.
lcm went from full-time high school to full-time college to full-time twi.
Remember, he went STRAIGHT into running programs AS SOON as he
came out of the way corps. He never even had ONE YEAR working full-time
outside of twi. lcm was then DESIGNED-slowly-
to have no conscience,
to give vpw full obedience,
to expect unquestioned obedience from others,
to believe the mog got the best of everything,
to believe "he had to loosen up sexually" (as vpw told him),
to believe the mog was to be treated like divine royalty
He was NOT trained to think of money. In fact, although his EARLY
training emphasized it (he was told that he was kicked out of the corps if
his tuition ever fell behind), he was told to disregard it once he was in
charge of his first assignment-the wow program.
So, lcm never really sweated MONEY so much-he was taught to expect
it to always be there. He was NEVER in charge of a program that had to
maximize expenses or be financially practical. So, his considerations NEVER
took money into account.
So, when he ascended the throne, he figured the money would always be
there, and never gave it another thought. What he was concerned about
was getting the blind obedience vpw got, and lcm expected.
When vpw faced less than 100% blind obedience from the corps, at least
TWICE- he kicked everyone OUT of the corps. The second time, he
"allowed" them to reapply if they swore an oath of loyalty to him.
lcm's most characteristic trait was that he expected whatever worked
for the corps should work for EVERYONE, and that the corps should take
whatever orders he felt like issuing.
So, when lcm was faced with less than 100% loyalty, he did what vpw
had done with the corps before on a SMALL scale:
he demanded an oath of loyalty-but from EVERYONE.
The result was that a few people had left in the past few years,
but now EIGHTY PERCENT of the people present when he demanded his
oath WALKED OFF. That means ONE in FIVE people STAYED.
He had caused the hugest drop in membership EVER...and he was
just getting started.
After a few years with lowered membership, he began making LARGER
policy decisions requiring blind loyalty.
He replaced pfal with his wap crap-expecting loyalty to overcome its
obvious deficiencies.
He put all corps on full-time salary-and demanded an accounting of
every 15 minutes of EVERY day.
He had all people who questioned him kicked out and their reputations
savaged. If you lived on grounds, you were THROWN out.
(He learned that one from vpw and the way corps.)
So, in short, he never saw the money slipping away because he was
trained to ignore it, and he fired anyone who ever tried to issue
a warning.
Disable the brakes, and send the train down a steep hill...
POP was HUGE.
So many left then, that the Way Tree (flourishing)
was reduced to a sapling struggling for nourishment.
My IMHO.
B)
Sorry, but NUMERICALLY, it was possibly 10%.
The RAMIFICATIONS were huge-failings by the bot, questioning the bot.
The big numbers left in 1989-1990.
(More than 80% of the group in about 365 days,
80% in 1989, perhaps another 5% in 1990.)
After that, the 1990s featured a steady LOSS in numbers.
TWI-1, under Wierwille, amassed millions, which went into investments in gold, maybe silver, and the stock market. Even with various bad investments over the years, I would guess that TWI is doing just fine financially.
So they don't need all the income they had in the 1970's and 80's. They're probably doing just fine on the interest, plus whatever the current followers are sending in. At least enough to keep the current BOD happy, and they probably don't care much what happens to TWI after that.
Remember, LCM was an egomaniac, but RFR, Donna, and others let him rant and drive people away. They could have stopped him from driving people away much earlier if it wasn't in their best interest. A simple majority vote by the BOD, and he would have been out.
What they DO need is a few followers, preferably low-maintenance ones, to provide a reason for them to stay in business. And they need a few services that they provide these followers. Otherwise, the IRS would shut them down as a 501 (C )(3) non-profit organization, which would force them to give up their nest egg to some other non-profit. Frankly, I'm surprised that the IRS hasn't already done so, based on the low numbers versus the big carry-over balance.
It may be that their numbers of late have gotten just a little TOO low to keep the IRS at bay, so that they have now instituted their "kinder, gentler TWI" policy.
But they don't want you -- you who think independently: you questioners, artists, gays, leaders. (They already got your money.) And they don't want you either, you physically sick or mentally ill who might take up too much time and TWI resources. Hey, sonofagun! that's just who Hitler got rid of, too.
They just want peaceful followers who take their classes at a high percentage (nice stats to show the IRS), and give up 15% of their income regularly (keeps the nest egg for another day).
What hapened with the purge is the lesson of twi for everyone.
Many thought God almighty loved us and did only for us to the point we could deny just about any reality or problem mistake or bad choice.
honestly it was all about believing.
I think that is why many had such pain, leaving or staying.
God either made a mistake or He just doesnt love us like we had been taught to think. the circle was broken.
the confusion, the strife, and the facing of truth struck across TWI like a lightening bolt ,
not just OHIO.
many realized for the first time the song about how "We got the power" indeed may have some limits.
it was the shock of a life time. who would have thought? I honestly think God destroyed an idol of the people.
no one thought about what or why or the reality of of outcomes... honestly in twi how many really really ever did?
twi demanded God to perform .
Cant touch it, all powerful twi, got slapped and like all bullys just got meaner and less willing to see the problem in any type of peace making rational terms.
Many that left in '89, myself included, were still a result of POP, tho Craig's loyalty oath letter certainly speeded up the process dramatically.
During the so called 'fog years', many long time followers continued to attend fellowships, albeit in a less 'commited' fashion. I was 'gone' by the end of '86 in my mind, but continued to hang with a corps couple who were on the fence, but still holding fellowships. I also attended a word in business thing in '87, which provided a nice look at craig and howard allen in action. I was at a somewhat legendary 'branch' meeting in San Diego where Ralph Dubofsky guest taught, which rose the ire of the California leadership. The ensuing 'spin control' by the way to 'correct the damage' done by Ralph, did much to bury the way in San Diego.
The point is, POP resulted in a tremendous amount of gradual exits, as opposed to the 'banishments from the kingdom' that seemed to be popular in the 90's.
I would say that during the late 80's...87, 88, 89...twi lost 75-80% of it followers.
The result of pop and the following events, torn twi to shreads...
and yes, lcm was dumber than a bag of hammers. He not only ran off the top leadership,but he single handedly dismantled the 3 major vehicles of twi's growth...the roa, the wow program and pfal...
I belive that his cheese slipped off the cracker...he became delusional and paranoid...his lust for self recognition nd power and control, led him to become quite insane (IMHO).
The point is, POP resulted in a tremendous amount of gradual exits, as opposed to the 'banishments from the kingdom' that seemed to be popular in the 90's.
I would guess the reading of the Passing of the Patriarch paper indirectly caused some, like myself, to leave.
I had not actually read the paper, nor do I remember if it was discussed when some of us twig coordinators were told of the other crap happening with the Way.
But I do know the leaders who were honest with me about what was going on were leaving "the ministry".
The limb leader who told us half-truths and evasions, who started to demand more of our loyalty and time, stayed with "the ministry".
I am just trying to get my time frame straight. The selling of Emporia and Rome City. Do you think these sales were the direct results of lcm and POP or independent of each other or neither?
I would say the sale of Emporia and later Rome City were a direct result of those things ... there were fewer members to fill these facilities and the upkeep had long been done for free by Way Corps volunteers for the most part, so they became an expensive liability. They weren't needed and weren't bringing in any money because most of TWI had left.
I am just trying to get my time frame straight. The selling of Emporia and Rome City. Do you think these sales were the direct results of lcm and POP or independent of each other or neither?
Justloafing -- I had heard (on a tape somewhere) that those two properties would be the first to go, should it become neccesary. Sadly -- I cannot quote you the source, but it was one from back in the mid 1980's.
Twi kept that which was advantageous to them, and *burned the chaff*.
But then again -- this is an IMO,
as an *outsider* to the true dealings, intentions, manipulations, etc., of twi.
I would say that during the late 80's...87, 88, 89...twi lost 75-80% of it followers.
The result of pop and the following events, torn twi to shreads...
and yes, lcm was dumber than a bag of hammers. He not only ran off the top leadership,but he single handedly dismantled the 3 major vehicles of twi's growth...the roa, the wow program and pfal...
I belive that his cheese slipped off the cracker...he became delusional and paranoid...his lust for self recognition nd power and control, led him to become quite insane (IMHO).
Between ROA 88 and ROA 89, approximately 80% of twi had left.
(Meaning 80% of the people IN as of the opening of ROA 88 had left before the
opening of ROA 89.) As some people here pointed out, some of those people
left at least partly as a result of PoP or the other stuff, and lcm's "oath of loyalty"
thing was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Some people had left BEFORE ROA 88, the largest group as a result of
PoP plus the Adultery thing plus the travelling leadership.
I remember that BEFORE ROA 88, their bookstore had already stopped restocking
JAL's books, and the current catalogs had their listings taped over.
AFTER ROA 89, and thru 1990, a number of people who were in as of ROA 89
had left. That includes some of the music groups and people who were appointed
Limb Coordinators after the PREVIOUS Limb coordinators were fired in 1989.
That could be checked because ROA 89 introduced the current roster of Limb
Coordinators. Since, statistically, 80% of them were new to their office, it made
sense to introduce them. Also, the 'put them onstage' thing was a pat on the back
for choosing to stay rather than desert the ship as soon as it started to sink.
So, during the late 80s overall, including 1989 and into 1990,
twi lost MORE than 80% of its followers,
and statistics I read put them at something like 17% of previous membership
as of 1991, which means they lost 83%, depending on when the count was
counting from.
After that, each year, twi experienced "negative population growth",
meaning more people were leaving each year than were arriving each year.
I would say the sale of Emporia and later Rome City were a direct result of those things ... there were fewer members to fill these facilities and the upkeep had long been done for free by Way Corps volunteers for the most part, so they became an expensive liability. They weren't needed and weren't bringing in any money because most of TWI had left.
I would also add that the emporia campus and rome city campus became spiritual liabilities......i.e. it raised lots of questions about empty "training centers" and all. It was embarrassing.....and the bod fumbled all over themselves trying to cover for it.
Since the money that came in during TWI's hey-day (late 70's/early 80's) was invested in stocks, savings, etc., it seems that LCM figured that serving up the cash-cow (people/members) was perfectly acceptable. How they've been able to keep their non-profit status with the golden parachuts they have set up is beyond me....
In this thread, someone posted that leadership didn't have a lot of 'bling-bling' - but there was another recent thread where several posters wrote about the life-style their leadership led and how they supported it. No, the women weren't dripping in diamonds like Tammy-Faye, but vacations to exotic locations, new cars, healthclub memberships, and spa outings were total fantasy for 95% of the peons, but reality for many leadership - even having a savings account was possible for leadership - it seems the peons lived way more on a needs basis than leadership did!
I think LCM thought that if he created a high-octane ministry of white-collar believers that their higher income would result in higher ABS. (This was in the mid-late-90's.) I remember a leadership training tape where he lectured about outreach to people who were already 'discipes' - people who didn't have a lot of needs. (What were we supposed to offer them if they already had everything?) He was so out of touch with reality. I wonder how he feels working his blue-collar job now? Can he make ends meet and still ABS above 10%? I'm sure he has no trouble - as I'm sure he's not driving a WOW-mobile, either. He had a golden parachute, I'm sure!
I think LCM thought that if he created a high-octane ministry of white-collar believers that their higher income would result in higher ABS. (This was in the mid-late-90's.) I remember a leadership training tape where he lectured about outreach to people who were already 'disciples' - people who didn't have a lot of needs. (What were we supposed to offer them if they already had everything?) He was so out of touch with reality.
I think this is how it worked in his little pea-brain.
He imagined people would FLOCK to his wap class.
He imagined that if followers were talking to white-collar workers,
middle management and higher, people in the upper middle class,
that those people would somehow be added, as if they were brushed
with duct tape or something and dragged along.
So, people with more money would magically be added to the group,
and they would pay 10/15/20% of their income,
which-since they had larger salaries,
meant 'mo money, 'mo money, 'mo money to twi.
And, yes, it completely failed, partly because twi had nothing these
people WANTED. Being in twi would present a dramatic step DOWN
for these people. The are used to MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
and THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. Giving up 1/5 of their income
for the "privilege" of hearing lukewarm, average (or worse)
teachings on a phone hookup, then RETAUGHT on the tape,
then RE-RETAUGHT in the magazine, then RE-RE-RETAUGHT
... vacations to exotic locations, new cars, healthclub memberships, and spa outings were total fantasy for 95% of the peons, but reality for many leadership - even having a savings account was possible for leadership - it seems the peons lived way more on a needs basis than leadership did!
But ChasU, you're not seeing the issue properly.
As good and faithful stewards, walking in the love of God in the renewed mind in the household, steadfastly holding forth the prevailing word of truth as a candle to a darkened world in this day, time and hour, they are standing against all manner of unrighteousness and wickedness, and, lest the evil one tempt our people by having an overabundance of worldly mammon, desire to count it all joy by a re-distribution of physical non-necessities so that the spiritual man may arise in the hearts of the household so that we may stand firm and erect at the Bema.
Yes, it might be good to let our people in our Household fellowships enjoy the fruits of their own labor...
I remember hearing craiggers yelling about losing 75% of the ABS-ing followers during the "fog years" as he called them. I never heard of POP till I found WayDale. I did know that J Lynn and C Geer were curse words and "they who should not be named" type people, but that was all I knew about it.
Emporia was sold long before 1993, I believe. I don't remember ever even hearing about Emporia, but I went to the AC in 1996 at Rome City and it wasn't sold till around 1999 or 2000. They made Dr. Don and Wanda give up their home and go love at Rome City all alone till it was sold and that took YEARS. So much for the "more abundant life", eh? I wondered how "abundantly" TWI was living and how much "fruit" there must be for them to have to be selling off such a huge location, but I didn't really know until craig got caught with his pants down.
I also remember the push to witness to those white collar, middle class folk with teeth, cars and jobs. He used the apostles witnessing to political leaders, Lydia - the seller of purple, and other examples like that in the Bible to show us how that's who we were supposed to be witnessing to. The problem was, those folks are too smart to get involved with a group who is going to tell you to sell your home, give them more than 15% of your income and stockpile all kinds of supplies should the world end New Years Eve 1999. Most people could see straight through the b.s. after coming to just one meeting - at least all the people I brought did. They also expressed concern for me after being exposed to TWI. Would that I had listened to them sooner!
I also remember the push to witness to those white collar, middle class folk with teeth, cars and jobs.
He used the apostles witnessing to political leaders, Lydia - the seller of purple, and other examples like that in the Bible to show us how that's who we were supposed to be witnessing to.
Brief diversion, but still on the Way's Long Standing Love Fest With Money-
I read here somewhere that in the 90's, after Craig hired all the Way Corps and put them on salaries, it wasn't long before the cash reserves of the Way dried up and they were down to their last couple 100,000. I think it was less then 2 years after that bright idea was instigated. Anyone know for sure if that was the case?
The way it read was the he blew up at Howard Allen for not letting him know how bad it had gotten and the whole financial debacle was the main reason H.A. took an early retirement package. Shortly thereafter new revelation came down the pike and the Way Corps was released from employment and the checks stopped coming.
I always figured Howard was probably thinking he was doing the right thing according to the Man of God's (*hak kaff*) instructions and that God would provide. If that's the way it actually went, maybe God wasn't blessing what they were doing...? It would be a logical conclusion based on Way teaching. If they were really "out in left field, all tripped out babee" and going down the Wrong Road of False Revelation, then it wouldn't be the "right" God blessing them, it would be the Wrong God cursing them. Right into the Po' House. Which is almost what happened, and pretty much what did happen as it seems that after that a whole bunch of people said yet again, "this is crazeee!" and bailed.
Or maybe, seriously, the Right God doesn't do math the way we do. I'd think anyone could see that if you took a large chunk of your people and 1) stopped getting money from them in tithes, and 2) started giving them money back you're going to 3) need a substantial stream of revenue to replace it to pay for 4) I don't know what but I'm sure the Log Cabin needed new furniture or something.
Craig probably figured there'd be a huge influx of "new" people so the money would take care of itself, nay! it would increase. So, of course, I'm sure it figured in somewhere sometime that it was all the Way Corps' fault for not rising up - yet again - and really believing. DAMM those Way Corps!
Or maybe it was really the Right God's way of pruning the Way Tree some more. (I jest on behalf of Right God's everywhere).
The Ways' focus on money - yours and mine - is historic. You look too long at a Way Book - they act like you owe them your life. No place better to start than with your wallet. The problem is - and I say this seriously - they're too stupid to know how to run an organization profitably by providing useful services and goods that people would be willing to pay for. They're just not...smart, but they need and love money, yours and mine.
On top of that, they seem to be downright lazy. Within their little structure they've got some teachers, geez, that's all the Way does is "teach". They could be taking all that pent up spiritual power and releasing it in the form of "work", a word they're no doubt unfamiliar with but surely remember from some distant past Corps teachings they could dig up and memorize. Again.
The current crew's a little punch drunk from the last few years but they're aware enough to know they won't have a roof over their heads or a meal on their plates in another 10 years if they don't make their dough stretch. Course they could actually DO something to earn their livings, but, call me a naysayer, that just ain't gonna happen. There's not a bright bulb in the bunch, that I know of.
...And I remember right well how king okie would condescend, with that look of contempt in his eyes, screaming and blathering on about "commitment"...about "walking circumspectly"...about "being spiritually aware"...
...And this guy screwed the whole thing up himself, singlehandedly!
When I think back on those "special times" with king okie...I now think of him as arrogant, aloof, cold hearted, meanspirited, unprincipled, immoral, disgusting and last but not least, stupid.
At one time, twi had more than their share of very talented people...as an organization, it could have thrived...but thanks to loy the bufoon, it disintigrated like styrofoam in a bonfire...and let us not forget who handpicked the moron from Oklahoma...the same guy who saw snow on the gas pumps...gettin' the picture yet?
Twi was a money making scam from the get go...but the flim flam man died and left Moe Howard in charge...today we are witnessing the complete humiliation of this sad little cornfield cult...Rozilla!
All of your posts about cousin Craig's wife's homosexuality is horribly offensive. Welcome to the real world. Seems after all of these years of babbling about Craig, the members of this website would spend more time making him pay for his sins than gossiping about his wife's lesbianism. I certainly come from a different place, and am holding back on what I'm laughing about. These Martindales are *$(#*@#( nuts. They have been for a million years. Thank god my beautiful parents never, ever allowed Craig, Kerry, Kurt or Kent (let along that Jo Anne) to have a meeting in our home. I love my parents for that. My parents ROCK! I remember my father pulling one of them out of a car on Canyon Ridge Drive in Dallas, Texas ... stoned ... and almost having s*x with some ... Um ... Potential cult member?
I also remember staying up all night with Craig's mother ... Her trying to convince my father to buy into this $*@!. What a bunch of $*@!.
How about doing a google on "New Bedford Massachussets gay bar hatchet"? That's what is going on today. If you're really concerned about cousin Craig's homophobia, why are you so obsessed with his wife's sexual preference? I really don't understand, but thank GOD I have a life of my own, and can drop all of this $*@! at any moment.
BTW: I'm not Craig's only gay relative. His cousin Martin Dale Ewing was gay. His uncle in Tulsa .... A wonderful man .............
Can't wait to watch the superbowl this Sunday. I'm sure Terry Bradshaw ... apparently a supppoter of The Way International ... will also be watching.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
3
7
6
3
Popular Days
Feb 4
14
Feb 2
11
Feb 1
9
Feb 3
6
Top Posters In This Topic
GrouchoMarxJr 3 posts
justloafing 7 posts
socks 6 posts
WordWolf 3 posts
Popular Days
Feb 4 2006
14 posts
Feb 2 2006
11 posts
Feb 1 2006
9 posts
Feb 3 2006
6 posts
rascal
Loafing, I personally believe that with lcm that it wasn`t ever about the money but rather power and an insane need to control.
He only wanted those who offered him implicit obediance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nato
Hi loafing.
I don't know if it was that large of a purge. How many do you guys think got the boot? Was it like 10%?
I'm sure LCM thought that those 10% were so wicked that they would take out everyone they were in contact with.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
POP was HUGE.
So many left then, that the Way Tree (flourishing)
was reduced to a sapling struggling for nourishment.
My IMHO.
B)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
With vpw, I think at least a lot of it was about money and comfort.
(Based on his life story & personal history.)
He wanted a comfortable living, respect, and to not do farm labour.
(IMHO.)
With lcm, remember HIS life-story.
lcm was recruited clear out of college.
lcm was impressed by vpw, and offered him unquestioning loyalty.
lcm went from full-time high school to full-time college to full-time twi.
Remember, he went STRAIGHT into running programs AS SOON as he
came out of the way corps. He never even had ONE YEAR working full-time
outside of twi. lcm was then DESIGNED-slowly-
to have no conscience,
to give vpw full obedience,
to expect unquestioned obedience from others,
to believe the mog got the best of everything,
to believe "he had to loosen up sexually" (as vpw told him),
to believe the mog was to be treated like divine royalty
He was NOT trained to think of money. In fact, although his EARLY
training emphasized it (he was told that he was kicked out of the corps if
his tuition ever fell behind), he was told to disregard it once he was in
charge of his first assignment-the wow program.
So, lcm never really sweated MONEY so much-he was taught to expect
it to always be there. He was NEVER in charge of a program that had to
maximize expenses or be financially practical. So, his considerations NEVER
took money into account.
So, when he ascended the throne, he figured the money would always be
there, and never gave it another thought. What he was concerned about
was getting the blind obedience vpw got, and lcm expected.
When vpw faced less than 100% blind obedience from the corps, at least
TWICE- he kicked everyone OUT of the corps. The second time, he
"allowed" them to reapply if they swore an oath of loyalty to him.
lcm's most characteristic trait was that he expected whatever worked
for the corps should work for EVERYONE, and that the corps should take
whatever orders he felt like issuing.
So, when lcm was faced with less than 100% loyalty, he did what vpw
had done with the corps before on a SMALL scale:
he demanded an oath of loyalty-but from EVERYONE.
The result was that a few people had left in the past few years,
but now EIGHTY PERCENT of the people present when he demanded his
oath WALKED OFF. That means ONE in FIVE people STAYED.
He had caused the hugest drop in membership EVER...and he was
just getting started.
After a few years with lowered membership, he began making LARGER
policy decisions requiring blind loyalty.
He replaced pfal with his wap crap-expecting loyalty to overcome its
obvious deficiencies.
He put all corps on full-time salary-and demanded an accounting of
every 15 minutes of EVERY day.
He had all people who questioned him kicked out and their reputations
savaged. If you lived on grounds, you were THROWN out.
(He learned that one from vpw and the way corps.)
So, in short, he never saw the money slipping away because he was
trained to ignore it, and he fired anyone who ever tried to issue
a warning.
Disable the brakes, and send the train down a steep hill...
Sorry, but NUMERICALLY, it was possibly 10%.
The RAMIFICATIONS were huge-failings by the bot, questioning the bot.
The big numbers left in 1989-1990.
(More than 80% of the group in about 365 days,
80% in 1989, perhaps another 5% in 1990.)
After that, the 1990s featured a steady LOSS in numbers.
There's perhaps 3000 adults in the group NOW,
perhaps 2000. (My guess: 2500.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
TWI-1, under Wierwille, amassed millions, which went into investments in gold, maybe silver, and the stock market. Even with various bad investments over the years, I would guess that TWI is doing just fine financially.
So they don't need all the income they had in the 1970's and 80's. They're probably doing just fine on the interest, plus whatever the current followers are sending in. At least enough to keep the current BOD happy, and they probably don't care much what happens to TWI after that.
Remember, LCM was an egomaniac, but RFR, Donna, and others let him rant and drive people away. They could have stopped him from driving people away much earlier if it wasn't in their best interest. A simple majority vote by the BOD, and he would have been out.
What they DO need is a few followers, preferably low-maintenance ones, to provide a reason for them to stay in business. And they need a few services that they provide these followers. Otherwise, the IRS would shut them down as a 501 (C )(3) non-profit organization, which would force them to give up their nest egg to some other non-profit. Frankly, I'm surprised that the IRS hasn't already done so, based on the low numbers versus the big carry-over balance.
It may be that their numbers of late have gotten just a little TOO low to keep the IRS at bay, so that they have now instituted their "kinder, gentler TWI" policy.
But they don't want you -- you who think independently: you questioners, artists, gays, leaders. (They already got your money.) And they don't want you either, you physically sick or mentally ill who might take up too much time and TWI resources. Hey, sonofagun! that's just who Hitler got rid of, too.
They just want peaceful followers who take their classes at a high percentage (nice stats to show the IRS), and give up 15% of their income regularly (keeps the nest egg for another day).
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
Ernst and Young does their audits every month, they brag about this......................
Talk to any "Corps" about the Way being "about money" and they jump all over you................
This just happend this week actually.
They say everything is accounted for. To the penny.
So, from the senses, they aren't the ministry that "flaunts" the bucks.
No Rolls Royce, no diamonds, no bling bling sorta speak.
Not even fancy homes, ok the chalet, but in general, they aren't flashy.
So, when asked where the money goes, "it goes to the outreach of God's word";
Example: salaries, and the"land".
Why don't they post what they have and what they "do" with the money? That to me is an issue.
Because they don't want us to see what they "don't do" with the money?
It certainly isn't to "help" people.
It is all about control.
Because if they can control you, the money will automatically come in.
(I don't think it's all about 'control' now with lcm gone, but they haven't changed anything either)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
What hapened with the purge is the lesson of twi for everyone.
Many thought God almighty loved us and did only for us to the point we could deny just about any reality or problem mistake or bad choice.
honestly it was all about believing.
I think that is why many had such pain, leaving or staying.
God either made a mistake or He just doesnt love us like we had been taught to think. the circle was broken.
the confusion, the strife, and the facing of truth struck across TWI like a lightening bolt ,
not just OHIO.
many realized for the first time the song about how "We got the power" indeed may have some limits.
it was the shock of a life time. who would have thought? I honestly think God destroyed an idol of the people.
no one thought about what or why or the reality of of outcomes... honestly in twi how many really really ever did?
twi demanded God to perform .
Cant touch it, all powerful twi, got slapped and like all bullys just got meaner and less willing to see the problem in any type of peace making rational terms.
it was a dam gang fight.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hiway29
Many that left in '89, myself included, were still a result of POP, tho Craig's loyalty oath letter certainly speeded up the process dramatically.
During the so called 'fog years', many long time followers continued to attend fellowships, albeit in a less 'commited' fashion. I was 'gone' by the end of '86 in my mind, but continued to hang with a corps couple who were on the fence, but still holding fellowships. I also attended a word in business thing in '87, which provided a nice look at craig and howard allen in action. I was at a somewhat legendary 'branch' meeting in San Diego where Ralph Dubofsky guest taught, which rose the ire of the California leadership. The ensuing 'spin control' by the way to 'correct the damage' done by Ralph, did much to bury the way in San Diego.
The point is, POP resulted in a tremendous amount of gradual exits, as opposed to the 'banishments from the kingdom' that seemed to be popular in the 90's.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I would say that during the late 80's...87, 88, 89...twi lost 75-80% of it followers.
The result of pop and the following events, torn twi to shreads...
and yes, lcm was dumber than a bag of hammers. He not only ran off the top leadership,but he single handedly dismantled the 3 major vehicles of twi's growth...the roa, the wow program and pfal...
I belive that his cheese slipped off the cracker...he became delusional and paranoid...his lust for self recognition nd power and control, led him to become quite insane (IMHO).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kevlar2000
I would guess the reading of the Passing of the Patriarch paper indirectly caused some, like myself, to leave.
I had not actually read the paper, nor do I remember if it was discussed when some of us twig coordinators were told of the other crap happening with the Way.
But I do know the leaders who were honest with me about what was going on were leaving "the ministry".
The limb leader who told us half-truths and evasions, who started to demand more of our loyalty and time, stayed with "the ministry".
I finally decided enough was enough.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
I am just trying to get my time frame straight. The selling of Emporia and Rome City. Do you think these sales were the direct results of lcm and POP or independent of each other or neither?
Edited by justloafingLink to comment
Share on other sites
DogLover
I would say the sale of Emporia and later Rome City were a direct result of those things ... there were fewer members to fill these facilities and the upkeep had long been done for free by Way Corps volunteers for the most part, so they became an expensive liability. They weren't needed and weren't bringing in any money because most of TWI had left.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Justloafing -- I had heard (on a tape somewhere) that those two properties would be the first to go, should it become neccesary. Sadly -- I cannot quote you the source, but it was one from back in the mid 1980's.
Twi kept that which was advantageous to them, and *burned the chaff*.
But then again -- this is an IMO,
as an *outsider* to the true dealings, intentions, manipulations, etc., of twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Between ROA 88 and ROA 89, approximately 80% of twi had left.
(Meaning 80% of the people IN as of the opening of ROA 88 had left before the
opening of ROA 89.) As some people here pointed out, some of those people
left at least partly as a result of PoP or the other stuff, and lcm's "oath of loyalty"
thing was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Some people had left BEFORE ROA 88, the largest group as a result of
PoP plus the Adultery thing plus the travelling leadership.
I remember that BEFORE ROA 88, their bookstore had already stopped restocking
JAL's books, and the current catalogs had their listings taped over.
AFTER ROA 89, and thru 1990, a number of people who were in as of ROA 89
had left. That includes some of the music groups and people who were appointed
Limb Coordinators after the PREVIOUS Limb coordinators were fired in 1989.
That could be checked because ROA 89 introduced the current roster of Limb
Coordinators. Since, statistically, 80% of them were new to their office, it made
sense to introduce them. Also, the 'put them onstage' thing was a pat on the back
for choosing to stay rather than desert the ship as soon as it started to sink.
So, during the late 80s overall, including 1989 and into 1990,
twi lost MORE than 80% of its followers,
and statistics I read put them at something like 17% of previous membership
as of 1991, which means they lost 83%, depending on when the count was
counting from.
After that, each year, twi experienced "negative population growth",
meaning more people were leaving each year than were arriving each year.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
I would also add that the emporia campus and rome city campus became spiritual liabilities......i.e. it raised lots of questions about empty "training centers" and all. It was embarrassing.....and the bod fumbled all over themselves trying to cover for it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
Since the money that came in during TWI's hey-day (late 70's/early 80's) was invested in stocks, savings, etc., it seems that LCM figured that serving up the cash-cow (people/members) was perfectly acceptable. How they've been able to keep their non-profit status with the golden parachuts they have set up is beyond me....
In this thread, someone posted that leadership didn't have a lot of 'bling-bling' - but there was another recent thread where several posters wrote about the life-style their leadership led and how they supported it. No, the women weren't dripping in diamonds like Tammy-Faye, but vacations to exotic locations, new cars, healthclub memberships, and spa outings were total fantasy for 95% of the peons, but reality for many leadership - even having a savings account was possible for leadership - it seems the peons lived way more on a needs basis than leadership did!
I think LCM thought that if he created a high-octane ministry of white-collar believers that their higher income would result in higher ABS. (This was in the mid-late-90's.) I remember a leadership training tape where he lectured about outreach to people who were already 'discipes' - people who didn't have a lot of needs. (What were we supposed to offer them if they already had everything?) He was so out of touch with reality. I wonder how he feels working his blue-collar job now? Can he make ends meet and still ABS above 10%? I'm sure he has no trouble - as I'm sure he's not driving a WOW-mobile, either. He had a golden parachute, I'm sure!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I think this is how it worked in his little pea-brain.
He imagined people would FLOCK to his wap class.
He imagined that if followers were talking to white-collar workers,
middle management and higher, people in the upper middle class,
that those people would somehow be added, as if they were brushed
with duct tape or something and dragged along.
So, people with more money would magically be added to the group,
and they would pay 10/15/20% of their income,
which-since they had larger salaries,
meant 'mo money, 'mo money, 'mo money to twi.
And, yes, it completely failed, partly because twi had nothing these
people WANTED. Being in twi would present a dramatic step DOWN
for these people. The are used to MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
and THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. Giving up 1/5 of their income
for the "privilege" of hearing lukewarm, average (or worse)
teachings on a phone hookup, then RETAUGHT on the tape,
then RE-RETAUGHT in the magazine, then RE-RE-RETAUGHT
live during the week?
Where do I sign up? :unsure:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kevlar2000
But ChasU, you're not seeing the issue properly.
As good and faithful stewards, walking in the love of God in the renewed mind in the household, steadfastly holding forth the prevailing word of truth as a candle to a darkened world in this day, time and hour, they are standing against all manner of unrighteousness and wickedness, and, lest the evil one tempt our people by having an overabundance of worldly mammon, desire to count it all joy by a re-distribution of physical non-necessities so that the spiritual man may arise in the hearts of the household so that we may stand firm and erect at the Bema.
Yes, it might be good to let our people in our Household fellowships enjoy the fruits of their own labor...
But is is best?
*tongue firmly in cheek*
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
I remember hearing craiggers yelling about losing 75% of the ABS-ing followers during the "fog years" as he called them. I never heard of POP till I found WayDale. I did know that J Lynn and C Geer were curse words and "they who should not be named" type people, but that was all I knew about it.
Emporia was sold long before 1993, I believe. I don't remember ever even hearing about Emporia, but I went to the AC in 1996 at Rome City and it wasn't sold till around 1999 or 2000. They made Dr. Don and Wanda give up their home and go love at Rome City all alone till it was sold and that took YEARS. So much for the "more abundant life", eh? I wondered how "abundantly" TWI was living and how much "fruit" there must be for them to have to be selling off such a huge location, but I didn't really know until craig got caught with his pants down.
I also remember the push to witness to those white collar, middle class folk with teeth, cars and jobs. He used the apostles witnessing to political leaders, Lydia - the seller of purple, and other examples like that in the Bible to show us how that's who we were supposed to be witnessing to. The problem was, those folks are too smart to get involved with a group who is going to tell you to sell your home, give them more than 15% of your income and stockpile all kinds of supplies should the world end New Years Eve 1999. Most people could see straight through the b.s. after coming to just one meeting - at least all the people I brought did. They also expressed concern for me after being exposed to TWI. Would that I had listened to them sooner!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
themex
LCM was/is mad also stupid.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Brief diversion, but still on the Way's Long Standing Love Fest With Money-
I read here somewhere that in the 90's, after Craig hired all the Way Corps and put them on salaries, it wasn't long before the cash reserves of the Way dried up and they were down to their last couple 100,000. I think it was less then 2 years after that bright idea was instigated. Anyone know for sure if that was the case?
The way it read was the he blew up at Howard Allen for not letting him know how bad it had gotten and the whole financial debacle was the main reason H.A. took an early retirement package. Shortly thereafter new revelation came down the pike and the Way Corps was released from employment and the checks stopped coming.
I always figured Howard was probably thinking he was doing the right thing according to the Man of God's (*hak kaff*) instructions and that God would provide. If that's the way it actually went, maybe God wasn't blessing what they were doing...? It would be a logical conclusion based on Way teaching. If they were really "out in left field, all tripped out babee" and going down the Wrong Road of False Revelation, then it wouldn't be the "right" God blessing them, it would be the Wrong God cursing them. Right into the Po' House. Which is almost what happened, and pretty much what did happen as it seems that after that a whole bunch of people said yet again, "this is crazeee!" and bailed.
Or maybe, seriously, the Right God doesn't do math the way we do. I'd think anyone could see that if you took a large chunk of your people and 1) stopped getting money from them in tithes, and 2) started giving them money back you're going to 3) need a substantial stream of revenue to replace it to pay for 4) I don't know what but I'm sure the Log Cabin needed new furniture or something.
Craig probably figured there'd be a huge influx of "new" people so the money would take care of itself, nay! it would increase. So, of course, I'm sure it figured in somewhere sometime that it was all the Way Corps' fault for not rising up - yet again - and really believing. DAMM those Way Corps!
Or maybe it was really the Right God's way of pruning the Way Tree some more. (I jest on behalf of Right God's everywhere).
The Ways' focus on money - yours and mine - is historic. You look too long at a Way Book - they act like you owe them your life. No place better to start than with your wallet. The problem is - and I say this seriously - they're too stupid to know how to run an organization profitably by providing useful services and goods that people would be willing to pay for. They're just not...smart, but they need and love money, yours and mine.
On top of that, they seem to be downright lazy. Within their little structure they've got some teachers, geez, that's all the Way does is "teach". They could be taking all that pent up spiritual power and releasing it in the form of "work", a word they're no doubt unfamiliar with but surely remember from some distant past Corps teachings they could dig up and memorize. Again.
The current crew's a little punch drunk from the last few years but they're aware enough to know they won't have a roof over their heads or a meal on their plates in another 10 years if they don't make their dough stretch. Course they could actually DO something to earn their livings, but, call me a naysayer, that just ain't gonna happen. There's not a bright bulb in the bunch, that I know of.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
<_< Cool synopsis, socks.
The only thing I have to add, is that somebody figured out the chief purger needed to be purged.
It had become obvious that the great MOGFOT had become more of a liability than any of the faithful.
I just wonder if they realized how expensive it would be. <_<
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
...And I remember right well how king okie would condescend, with that look of contempt in his eyes, screaming and blathering on about "commitment"...about "walking circumspectly"...about "being spiritually aware"...
...And this guy screwed the whole thing up himself, singlehandedly!
When I think back on those "special times" with king okie...I now think of him as arrogant, aloof, cold hearted, meanspirited, unprincipled, immoral, disgusting and last but not least, stupid.
At one time, twi had more than their share of very talented people...as an organization, it could have thrived...but thanks to loy the bufoon, it disintigrated like styrofoam in a bonfire...and let us not forget who handpicked the moron from Oklahoma...the same guy who saw snow on the gas pumps...gettin' the picture yet?
Twi was a money making scam from the get go...but the flim flam man died and left Moe Howard in charge...today we are witnessing the complete humiliation of this sad little cornfield cult...Rozilla!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
S. Craig
All of your posts about cousin Craig's wife's homosexuality is horribly offensive. Welcome to the real world. Seems after all of these years of babbling about Craig, the members of this website would spend more time making him pay for his sins than gossiping about his wife's lesbianism. I certainly come from a different place, and am holding back on what I'm laughing about. These Martindales are *$(#*@#( nuts. They have been for a million years. Thank god my beautiful parents never, ever allowed Craig, Kerry, Kurt or Kent (let along that Jo Anne) to have a meeting in our home. I love my parents for that. My parents ROCK! I remember my father pulling one of them out of a car on Canyon Ridge Drive in Dallas, Texas ... stoned ... and almost having s*x with some ... Um ... Potential cult member?
I also remember staying up all night with Craig's mother ... Her trying to convince my father to buy into this $*@!. What a bunch of $*@!.
How about doing a google on "New Bedford Massachussets gay bar hatchet"? That's what is going on today. If you're really concerned about cousin Craig's homophobia, why are you so obsessed with his wife's sexual preference? I really don't understand, but thank GOD I have a life of my own, and can drop all of this $*@! at any moment.
BTW: I'm not Craig's only gay relative. His cousin Martin Dale Ewing was gay. His uncle in Tulsa .... A wonderful man .............
Can't wait to watch the superbowl this Sunday. I'm sure Terry Bradshaw ... apparently a supppoter of The Way International ... will also be watching.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.