I wasn't raised in a church. I got in TWI when I was 15 in 1970. I just went along and agreed that Jesus was not God. After I left, around '88, I continued to read my Bible. About a year or so later, I read the first part of the Gospel of John and was electrified - saw it like I had never seen it before - I can only say it was a "mountaintop" experience.
As time went on, this interesting idea, or concept started forming in my thoughts. I mused on it for about 6 months. It was totally different from anything that was taught in TWI. Finally, one day I was talking to a friend who was ex-TWI and had left and was in a divnity school studying for her masters so she could pastor a church. So I decided to run it by her. She listened and then told me I had just described the trinity. I didn't know, I just thought I was seeing some interesting things. I also found, there are several different thoughts on the trinity. Its not the simple cut and dried thing VP taught.
Is it an issue with me regarding other Christians - of course not. Each person's walk with God is their's alone. I do agree with the above poster though, that VP terribly misrepresented the trinity. I've found its probably the only topic, even if someone has been out for years, they are truly either afraid to look at or stand in cement by what VP taught - they will absolutely not consider anything else. I think that's a great disservice VP did.
I am sorry for not following the rules as far as where things should be posted. I was in a hurry to get my questions and comments down and wasn't paying attention. Please feel free to move this post to the proper forum.
I am sorry for not following the rules as far as where things should be posted. I was in a hurry to get my questions and comments down and wasn't paying attention. Please feel free to move this post to the proper forum.
Not sure about every Muslim and Jew, but the ones I talked to in the past believed that
it was idolatry to make anyone God except just one God (not in 3 parts).
I was taught that in TWI and used it as part of my nontrinitarian formula---In truth I had at the time spoken to very few Muslims or Jews in depth enough to get to one God --so I took the basic tenet that was fed me by TWI as a universal truth, and like a lot of things that I was taught in The Way it simply wasn't true
HERE are the testimones of a hundred or so former Muslims that have converted to Christianity.
If you searched (which honestly I am just too lazy to do right now)Im sure you could find a similar site for Jews that have converted as well. I know a few and there are also entire groups (Jews For Jesus for example).
Not sure about every Muslim and Jew, but the ones I talked to in the past believed that
it was idolatry to make anyone God except just one God (not in 3 parts).
That's a classic false dilemma.
It's the old Wayfer method of "winning" an argument by misrepresenting what the other side believes.
My take on the Godhead is that it is seemingly ambiguous in the Bible because that's the way it's meant to be. Anybody whose explanation of the Godhead purports to 'splain it has a small "boxable" God, imo.
But it amuses me to hear people argue endlessly about the minute particulars of the God they worship...as if they really know <_<
My take on the Godhead is that it is seemingly ambiguous in the Bible because that's the way it's meant to be. Anybody whose explanation of the Godhead purports to 'splain it has a small "boxable" God, imo.
I came to a conclusion roughly equivalent to yours.
There's a corollary to Occam's Razor that says of NONE of the current answers FULLY
explain what's being explained,
then ALL the current answers are WRONG and the answer is something else.
Since the topic of Muslims and their attitude towards Jesus Christ came up a few posts ago I thought I’d put in my observations.
In the last years of my youthful search for enlightenment, fueled by the Moody Blues and several other 60’s phenomena, I sought out all the forms of religion I could get my hands on, especially if there was a flesh and blood representative of said religion to speak more than a book could.
Just one year before I was witnessed to about the class I was working in Manhattan, NYC at a job with Western Union that afforded me lots of free time to talk with fellow employees. This was the same job where I later met Ken Barden of the 7th Corps and witnessed to him in those abundantly available employee discussion sessions.
One of my co-workers was a Muslim and we talked for hours about God and life. This man’s discipline impressed me. His conviction impressed me. As a result I not only debated matters with him but I also listened intently. I even went with him to his church or temple ( I forget what he called it.) once to meet his mentor, and I knelt in prayer with him on his prayer rug.
Being also heavily influenced by the times and what was in the wind all about me I tried to embrace all religions as equally correct. I used to chant in my private prayer life the phrase “God, Allah, Ram” over and over to cover all bases. One very surprising thing I heard from my Muslim friend that went against the ecumenical grain of what I was believing about the equality of religions was that Jesus was the ONLY man to have never sinned, AND that he was not God, so his resistance to sin was a very big deal!
I had a difficulty with that, thinking that there were all sorts of sinless saints in any large enough population. But my conversations with this Muslim changed my attitude. He convinced me to ponder deeply that there was only ONE sinless man who ever lived. I came to believe him, and in a few months I was witnessed to about the class.
I’ve come to see modern Muslims as the descendants of the “original protestants,” preceding Martin Luther by about a thousand years. Just like our western Protestant Reformation was incomplete and then later plenty of corruptions re-entered the movement, so it was with the Muslim reformation. Yet, they still see that there’s SOMETHING special about Jesus Christ, only to then get sidetracked from attaining it, just like modern churchianity. I see Muslims’ sidetracking has moved in differing directions from churchianity, reflecting their differing world regions of origin and the differing eras of origin.
Over the years I’ve heard a few other Muslims repeat much the same message this man had for me, so I know it wasn’t just him. How odd, that it was Muslim who first convinced me to believe in Jesus as the only sinless man!
Mike, the place where Muslims worship is called a mosque, where shoes are removed at the door, and their day of worship is Fridays(daytime) instead of night and Saturdays. BTW, this is one of your better posts in a long time. maybe there is hope for you yet. Agape, Thomas
One very surprising thing I heard from my Muslim friend that went against the ecumenical grain of what I was believing about the equality of religions was that Jesus was the ONLY man to have never sinned, AND that he was not God, so his resistance to sin was a very big deal!
I had a difficulty with that, thinking that there were all sorts of sinless saints in any large enough population. But my conversations with this Muslim changed my attitude. He convinced me to ponder deeply that there was only ONE sinless man who ever lived. I came to believe him, and in a few months I was witnessed to about the class.
I’ve come to see modern Muslims as the descendants of the “original protestants,” preceding Martin Luther by about a thousand years. Just like our western Protestant Reformation was incomplete and then later plenty of corruptions re-entered the movement, so it was with the Muslim reformation. Yet, they still see that there’s SOMETHING special about Jesus Christ, only to then get sidetracked from attaining it, just like modern churchianity. I see Muslims’ sidetracking has moved in differing directions from churchianity, reflecting their differing world regions of origin and the differing eras of origin.
Miike -- that says a lot (to me). Thanks for the sharing. :)
Concerning the Trinity, I was raised Roman Catholic – with most of the Mass in Latin and full of ceremonies I never gave any thought to what the Bible was all about. Needless to say, I was easily impressed with Way believers quoting Scripture and explaining everything. While in The Way, I certainly believed Jesus Christ was not God. For that matter, I believed every doctrine of The Way.
Things are a lot different since I left in 1986. I now believe Jesus Christ is God. I’m not about to present arguments for the Trinity. I will say this about the Trinity and so many other theological topics – they are but feeble attempts of finite man to understand and explain the infinite. I read about an analogy how Bible doctrines are similar to Botanical studies. A botanist goes out into the wild and gathers certain species and puts them together in one section of a Greenhouse. Theologians go through the Bible and gather together all the verses they THINK should be in the same group [salvation, prayer, Jesus’ humanity, Christ’s divinity, etc.]. And that’s okay – just allow me the same privilege – allow me to think! Thinking is a fun activity – and foreign to TWI.
And that’s where I fault The Way - in their tendency to suppress thinking in its followers. When it came time to work on our research papers I recall LCM telling us not to try and re-invent the wheel – instead, draw our themes from PFAL. While in The Way I had The Way Slant on the Bible [interpreting everything through VPW’s glass eye]. There’s a very revealing quote from the September/October 1986 The Way Magazine: “The Foundational Class is the touchstone of truth from whence every handling of God’s Word, however basic or specialized, must germinate, grow, and blossom. It should be the standard of the study, application, and teaching of the Word of God.” Touchstone is any test or criterion for determining what is genuine or has value. The Way bred mental weakness in people as they accepted this faulty standard [PFAL] for truth.
There’s something eerily similar with my thoughtless Roman Catholicism and my wholehearted acceptance of The Way’s doctrine. It’s probably the fact that I didn’t have to think with either one. Here’s a personal belief of mine: The Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. I also believe God gave us His Word to bring us into a transforming relationship with Him.
Around the time when I left TWI, I remember reading Jeremiah 9: 23 & 24 – and it hit me. I saw a chasm – on one side was how much I knew [or rather thought I knew] about God. On the other side was knowing God. It’s the difference between reading an autobiography of someone famous and being their close friend. What freedom! I’m no longer bound to think of my Lord through the filter of a priesthood [whether Roman Catholic or German Plagiarist]. And It’s okay if others don’t think like I do.
There’s something eerily similar with my thoughtless Roman Catholicism and my wholehearted acceptance of The Way’s doctrine. It’s probably the fact that I didn’t have to think with either one. Here’s a personal belief of mine: The Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. I also believe God gave us His Word to bring us into a transforming relationship with Him.
Around the time when I left TWI, I remember reading Jeremiah 9: 23 & 24 – and it hit me. I saw a chasm – on one side was how much I knew [or rather thought I knew] about God. On the other side was knowing God. It’s the difference between reading an autobiography of someone famous and being their close friend. What freedom! I’m no longer bound to think of my Lord through the filter of a priesthood [whether Roman Catholic or German Plagiarist]. And It’s okay if others don’t think like I do.
Bingo for me T-Bone
I was trying to put the similarities to words, and couldn't figure out the relationship. You are right, I was raised RC, school and church, yet knew nothing.
So, finding the Way and getting all this "knowledge" I thought that this must be how to get to God.
Bottom LINE: They both made me LAZY. Either don't tell me enough,but have (works to get to heaven), or tell me what to do every minute of the day (works of the flesh for rewards). NO thinking invoved.
Gosh, I am learning about a relationship with God and Jesus MORE NOW than all the verses, retemories, SITing, fellowships, witnessing, etc............. ever did for me.
It comes with freedom, true freedom in Christ. And seeing people who LOVE yet only know a couple of verses of scripture, and they don't know "orientalisms" either.
Nothing wrong with knowing Greek, customs, yada yada, but how much and how far do we go? If our relationship is based on "how much we know" then, I'll be locking myself in an office for the next.......................???????
This just cannot be. I'll just K. I. S .S............
Hi T-bone..I wouldnt class myself or a number of others as 'non-thinkers' either whilst having been in twi or out of it. I still think for myself and certainly when it comes to 'doctrine'.
I would have to say from your way of reasoning that there are numerous trinitarian churches full of 'non-thinkers' as well !
When people say they have a more 'intimate' knowledge of God yet submit to 'trinitarian theology' I still wonder..do they mean God God or Jesus God or HS God or God Jesus ??
(I know what you're saying, doctrine can get in the way of relationship)
Concerning the Trinity, I was raised Roman Catholic – with most of the Mass in Latin and full of ceremonies I never gave any thought to what the Bible was all about.
(snip)
There’s something eerily similar with my thoughtless Roman Catholicism and my wholehearted acceptance of The Way’s doctrine. It’s probably the fact that I didn’t have to think with either one.
I was trying to put the similarities to words, and couldn't figure out the relationship. You are right, I was raised RC, school and church, yet knew nothing.
So, finding the Way and getting all this "knowledge" I thought that this must be how to get to God.
Bottom LINE: They both made me LAZY. Either don't tell me enough,but have (works to get to heaven), or tell me what to do every minute of the day (works of the flesh for rewards). NO thinking invoved.
Believe it or not folks I actually tend to agree.
Obviously with the TWI statements
But also, believe it or not, with the statements made against Catholics by t-bone and bliss.
In my parish, there are approximately 8,000 registered parishoners. Only about half of them regularly show up for one of the seven Masses we have each weekend. Out of those, I'd say likely half (if not more) are just there out of habit or for some other social reason.
Out of the remainder (those who are directly there because of conviction rather than habit), I'd say that likely half don't understand in any way, shape, or form the theology of the Mass, or, for that matter, have any more in-depth understanding of Catholic theology than what they learned through the Baltimore Catechism. In other words, they really do it out of some sort of superstition, rather than out of any sort of understanding "why" they are there. I find that to be a true tragedy.
The style of teaching used in the catechism given Catholic children does tend to produce a laziness in the thought process. I have a kid getting ready for Confirmation and I have had to deal with this for years with her: going behind what was taught in her catechism class and providing more depth so that she, at least, has some understanding of why she's doing what she's doing and what the theological bases are for those acts. I personally think that the level set for that catechesis may have been appropriate for an illiterate audience of catechumens (students)...to provide them some memorizable information so that they could learn the fundamentals of the faith without needing to learn to read (which, face it, up to about 75-100 years ago in this country, and even to this day in many places in the world is the case with large segments of populations). But in a literate society, such as is the case for the most part in the US and in Europe, that level of depth is simply insufficient. It's not that the information is not there: it's that they don't take the time to teach it in any way.
(Btw, this is not a statement against Catholicism, this is a statement against how those in charge of the stewardship of Catholicism are not exercising their responsibilities properly -- in most cases)
On the other hand, I wonder how this laziness issue impacts most church-goers, regardless of where they go to church. Whether we're talking Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, or whatever. I wonder how high a percentage of folks actually work to learn what it is they believe and how high a percentage of folks just go there and either don't concern themselves or blindly accept what they're taught?
One other thing: there is one fundamental difference though that I would want to point out contrasting the mental laziness in Catholicism (and other legitimate ecclesiastical bodies) versus the mental laziness in TWI:
If you legitimately question or want to dig out something in regards to Church doctrine (i.e., you are having a hard time with a specific belief or practice), you can find the answers and, in most cases, the leadership in those bodies will be thrilled to help you look.
If you legitimately question or want to dig outsomething in regards to TWI doctrine (i.e., you are having a hard time with a specific belief or practice), the TWI leadership will, these days, call you on the carpet.
Allan, I don’t classify former or current members of TWI as “non-thinkers”. What I said was TWI had a tendency to suppress thinking in its followers. By that, I meant they discouraged critical thinking. And I was referring to my personal experience with TWI – for my 12 years of involvement I have to admit the “critical thinking” function of MY brain and TWI stuff was an atrophied muscle.
What is critical thinking? A simple description is the mental process of analyzing, evaluating, questioning, and checking information coming into our heads – in order to ensure we’re making a good decision. It also involves reflection – we even can turn a critical eye inward – think about the way we think. Critical thinking is a vital tool that people use all the time – asking a sales rep lots of questions about a product, checking out a company to see if it would fit with our career goals before we apply for a job there, etc. When it came to me figuring out what model car to buy – my critical thinking was engaged. When it came to TWI stuff – I swallowed it completely – no questions asked.
Why do I say TWI discouraged critical thinking in matters of faith? Here’s a quote from a handout LCM gave us in the Corps in December ’85: “If you think there’s any help outside The Way Ministry, if you think there’s anyone else out there standing on the accuracy of the Word of God, you’re wrong. They may have bits and pieces, but all of that is just a counterfeit; it’s crumbling; it’s dying. The Christian Fundamentalist and Evangelical world is a hodge podge of doctrinal confusion and ego.”
I remember how I used to think – that there is no outside, no where else to go. About a year after I left TWI I read a book “The Closing of the American Mind” by Allan Bloom and found a quote in it: “Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even especially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.”
Allan, I don’t think TWI had cornered the market on suppressing critical thinking. You said with my way of reasoning there must be numerous Trinitarian churches full of ‘non-thinkers.’ I’d like to refine that a bit by saying it doesn’t matter what church you look at – you’ll always find some who are there just because they’re following the crowd. Let me put it a different way: “The beliefs in your belief system are they yours – or someone else’s?” For instance I used to believe that Jesus Christ is not God – a belief I adopted from VPW’s book. Now I believe Jesus Christ is God - a conviction that I have come to after much personal study and reflection [critical thinking]. I don’t condemn people who think Jesus is not God. Who’s to say my critical thinking is 100 % right – no one’s is. I like Goey’s comments – “the trinity is not a big deal for me anymore…I don’t see where being Trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides…”
My point in all this is that critical thinking is a powerful and vital tool! The way you’ve developed your belief system is important. In matters of faith I mindlessly adopted a belief system that was conveniently handed to me on a platter called PFAL. There’s a way I’d like to explain the difference between adopting another person’s beliefs and figuring things out for yourself. I liken it to my older brother giving me a 1967 Chevy Malibu [he paid only $200 for it and fixed it up for me] when I was 17 years old. It ran great and best of all – I got it free. Years later, having to spend my hard-earned money on a vehicle, I read Consumer Reports on the maintenance record of vehicles I was interested in, as well as test-driving them, talking to people who owned them, etc. – so I bought a Honda Accord. With the Chevy – the only choice I had was if I wanted to accept it or not. I bought a Honda after putting a lot of thought into what was important to me [low maintenance, options, cost, etc.].
Being a newcomer to Grease Spot Café here’s some thoughts of my Café experience thus far and why I come here. I haven’t figured it all out. I’m not trying to lead a bunch of people along the path of my way of thinking. I look at Grease Spot as a forum of critical thinkers. Why do I come here? Because it’s therapeutic. My signature line “exceeding abundantly above all the bs” is a GOAL of mine – I’m not there yet – and won’t be in this lifetime.
Now there’s a big difference in the way I put thoughts together and communicate to others. In TWI my motivation in teaching and communicating was often to impress others with my knowledge or manipulate them to do something I thought they should do. I’m not saying I have pure motives now – I’m still self-centered. I come to the Café for healing, closure on my TWI years, and to develop my critical thinking. It’s painful to the ego but necessary for change and growth when people shoot down my bs.
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Raf
Greasespot opinions on the Trinity:
The Way has it right, mainstream Christianity has it wrong.
Mainstream Christianity has it right, the Way has it wrong.
Mormons have it right, the Way and mainstream Christianity have it wrong.
The Jews have it right, the Mormons, the Way, and mainstream Christianity have it wrong.
There is no God.
That should about cover the spectrum, no?
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Sunesis
I wasn't raised in a church. I got in TWI when I was 15 in 1970. I just went along and agreed that Jesus was not God. After I left, around '88, I continued to read my Bible. About a year or so later, I read the first part of the Gospel of John and was electrified - saw it like I had never seen it before - I can only say it was a "mountaintop" experience.
As time went on, this interesting idea, or concept started forming in my thoughts. I mused on it for about 6 months. It was totally different from anything that was taught in TWI. Finally, one day I was talking to a friend who was ex-TWI and had left and was in a divnity school studying for her masters so she could pastor a church. So I decided to run it by her. She listened and then told me I had just described the trinity. I didn't know, I just thought I was seeing some interesting things. I also found, there are several different thoughts on the trinity. Its not the simple cut and dried thing VP taught.
Is it an issue with me regarding other Christians - of course not. Each person's walk with God is their's alone. I do agree with the above poster though, that VP terribly misrepresented the trinity. I've found its probably the only topic, even if someone has been out for years, they are truly either afraid to look at or stand in cement by what VP taught - they will absolutely not consider anything else. I think that's a great disservice VP did.
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themex
Yes, very interesting.
Also we do not have to define Jesus or God the Word do so. And said: "Just One God"
.
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Protint
Thank you for the replies.
I am sorry for not following the rules as far as where things should be posted. I was in a hurry to get my questions and comments down and wasn't paying attention. Please feel free to move this post to the proper forum.
Again thanks for the info.
Duane
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Raf
We all do it, Duane. You'll get the hang of it.
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dmiller
HA!! If that's the worst you do here,
you'll be more *stellar* than most here!
:D :D :D
David
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WordWolf
That includes the guy who pointed out the rules. (Me.)
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mstar1
I was taught that in TWI and used it as part of my nontrinitarian formula---In truth I had at the time spoken to very few Muslims or Jews in depth enough to get to one God --so I took the basic tenet that was fed me by TWI as a universal truth, and like a lot of things that I was taught in The Way it simply wasn't true
HERE are the testimones of a hundred or so former Muslims that have converted to Christianity.
If you searched (which honestly I am just too lazy to do right now)Im sure you could find a similar site for Jews that have converted as well. I know a few and there are also entire groups (Jews For Jesus for example).
For me its a nonissue---
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TheEvan
That's a classic false dilemma.
It's the old Wayfer method of "winning" an argument by misrepresenting what the other side believes.
My take on the Godhead is that it is seemingly ambiguous in the Bible because that's the way it's meant to be. Anybody whose explanation of the Godhead purports to 'splain it has a small "boxable" God, imo.
But it amuses me to hear people argue endlessly about the minute particulars of the God they worship...as if they really know <_<
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WordWolf
I came to a conclusion roughly equivalent to yours.
There's a corollary to Occam's Razor that says of NONE of the current answers FULLY
explain what's being explained,
then ALL the current answers are WRONG and the answer is something else.
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Mike
Since the topic of Muslims and their attitude towards Jesus Christ came up a few posts ago I thought I’d put in my observations.
In the last years of my youthful search for enlightenment, fueled by the Moody Blues and several other 60’s phenomena, I sought out all the forms of religion I could get my hands on, especially if there was a flesh and blood representative of said religion to speak more than a book could.
Just one year before I was witnessed to about the class I was working in Manhattan, NYC at a job with Western Union that afforded me lots of free time to talk with fellow employees. This was the same job where I later met Ken Barden of the 7th Corps and witnessed to him in those abundantly available employee discussion sessions.
One of my co-workers was a Muslim and we talked for hours about God and life. This man’s discipline impressed me. His conviction impressed me. As a result I not only debated matters with him but I also listened intently. I even went with him to his church or temple ( I forget what he called it.) once to meet his mentor, and I knelt in prayer with him on his prayer rug.
Being also heavily influenced by the times and what was in the wind all about me I tried to embrace all religions as equally correct. I used to chant in my private prayer life the phrase “God, Allah, Ram” over and over to cover all bases. One very surprising thing I heard from my Muslim friend that went against the ecumenical grain of what I was believing about the equality of religions was that Jesus was the ONLY man to have never sinned, AND that he was not God, so his resistance to sin was a very big deal!
I had a difficulty with that, thinking that there were all sorts of sinless saints in any large enough population. But my conversations with this Muslim changed my attitude. He convinced me to ponder deeply that there was only ONE sinless man who ever lived. I came to believe him, and in a few months I was witnessed to about the class.
I’ve come to see modern Muslims as the descendants of the “original protestants,” preceding Martin Luther by about a thousand years. Just like our western Protestant Reformation was incomplete and then later plenty of corruptions re-entered the movement, so it was with the Muslim reformation. Yet, they still see that there’s SOMETHING special about Jesus Christ, only to then get sidetracked from attaining it, just like modern churchianity. I see Muslims’ sidetracking has moved in differing directions from churchianity, reflecting their differing world regions of origin and the differing eras of origin.
Over the years I’ve heard a few other Muslims repeat much the same message this man had for me, so I know it wasn’t just him. How odd, that it was Muslim who first convinced me to believe in Jesus as the only sinless man!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mike, the place where Muslims worship is called a mosque, where shoes are removed at the door, and their day of worship is Fridays(daytime) instead of night and Saturdays. BTW, this is one of your better posts in a long time. maybe there is hope for you yet. Agape, Thomas
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Mike
Thanks Thomas.
I hold a lot within.
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johniam
I was wow in a college town and witnessed to a muslim from Iran. He said he believed Jesus was a prophet.
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dmiller
Miike -- that says a lot (to me). Thanks for the sharing. :)
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T-Bone
Concerning the Trinity, I was raised Roman Catholic – with most of the Mass in Latin and full of ceremonies I never gave any thought to what the Bible was all about. Needless to say, I was easily impressed with Way believers quoting Scripture and explaining everything. While in The Way, I certainly believed Jesus Christ was not God. For that matter, I believed every doctrine of The Way.
Things are a lot different since I left in 1986. I now believe Jesus Christ is God. I’m not about to present arguments for the Trinity. I will say this about the Trinity and so many other theological topics – they are but feeble attempts of finite man to understand and explain the infinite. I read about an analogy how Bible doctrines are similar to Botanical studies. A botanist goes out into the wild and gathers certain species and puts them together in one section of a Greenhouse. Theologians go through the Bible and gather together all the verses they THINK should be in the same group [salvation, prayer, Jesus’ humanity, Christ’s divinity, etc.]. And that’s okay – just allow me the same privilege – allow me to think! Thinking is a fun activity – and foreign to TWI.
And that’s where I fault The Way - in their tendency to suppress thinking in its followers. When it came time to work on our research papers I recall LCM telling us not to try and re-invent the wheel – instead, draw our themes from PFAL. While in The Way I had The Way Slant on the Bible [interpreting everything through VPW’s glass eye]. There’s a very revealing quote from the September/October 1986 The Way Magazine: “The Foundational Class is the touchstone of truth from whence every handling of God’s Word, however basic or specialized, must germinate, grow, and blossom. It should be the standard of the study, application, and teaching of the Word of God.” Touchstone is any test or criterion for determining what is genuine or has value. The Way bred mental weakness in people as they accepted this faulty standard [PFAL] for truth.
There’s something eerily similar with my thoughtless Roman Catholicism and my wholehearted acceptance of The Way’s doctrine. It’s probably the fact that I didn’t have to think with either one. Here’s a personal belief of mine: The Bible is a means to an end [connecting with God] and not an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. I also believe God gave us His Word to bring us into a transforming relationship with Him.
Around the time when I left TWI, I remember reading Jeremiah 9: 23 & 24 – and it hit me. I saw a chasm – on one side was how much I knew [or rather thought I knew] about God. On the other side was knowing God. It’s the difference between reading an autobiography of someone famous and being their close friend. What freedom! I’m no longer bound to think of my Lord through the filter of a priesthood [whether Roman Catholic or German Plagiarist]. And It’s okay if others don’t think like I do.
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bliss
Bingo for me T-Bone
I was trying to put the similarities to words, and couldn't figure out the relationship. You are right, I was raised RC, school and church, yet knew nothing.
So, finding the Way and getting all this "knowledge" I thought that this must be how to get to God.
Bottom LINE: They both made me LAZY. Either don't tell me enough,but have (works to get to heaven), or tell me what to do every minute of the day (works of the flesh for rewards). NO thinking invoved.
Gosh, I am learning about a relationship with God and Jesus MORE NOW than all the verses, retemories, SITing, fellowships, witnessing, etc............. ever did for me.
It comes with freedom, true freedom in Christ. And seeing people who LOVE yet only know a couple of verses of scripture, and they don't know "orientalisms" either.
Nothing wrong with knowing Greek, customs, yada yada, but how much and how far do we go? If our relationship is based on "how much we know" then, I'll be locking myself in an office for the next.......................???????
This just cannot be. I'll just K. I. S .S............
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Raf
Some Muslims use the word "masjid" instead of "mosque." MAYBE that's why Mike had trouble remembering it?
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Mike
Maybe that, or the fact that it was over 35 years ago.
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Raf
I'd like to think you've heard the word "mosque" in the last 35 years. Masjid is more obscure, easier to forget. :)
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Allan
Hi T-bone..I wouldnt class myself or a number of others as 'non-thinkers' either whilst having been in twi or out of it. I still think for myself and certainly when it comes to 'doctrine'.
I would have to say from your way of reasoning that there are numerous trinitarian churches full of 'non-thinkers' as well !
When people say they have a more 'intimate' knowledge of God yet submit to 'trinitarian theology' I still wonder..do they mean God God or Jesus God or HS God or God Jesus ??
(I know what you're saying, doctrine can get in the way of relationship)
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TheEvan
Fantastic post T-Bone!
ROTFLMAO!!!!
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markomalley
Believe it or not folks I actually tend to agree.
Obviously with the TWI statements
But also, believe it or not, with the statements made against Catholics by t-bone and bliss.
In my parish, there are approximately 8,000 registered parishoners. Only about half of them regularly show up for one of the seven Masses we have each weekend. Out of those, I'd say likely half (if not more) are just there out of habit or for some other social reason.
Out of the remainder (those who are directly there because of conviction rather than habit), I'd say that likely half don't understand in any way, shape, or form the theology of the Mass, or, for that matter, have any more in-depth understanding of Catholic theology than what they learned through the Baltimore Catechism. In other words, they really do it out of some sort of superstition, rather than out of any sort of understanding "why" they are there. I find that to be a true tragedy.
The style of teaching used in the catechism given Catholic children does tend to produce a laziness in the thought process. I have a kid getting ready for Confirmation and I have had to deal with this for years with her: going behind what was taught in her catechism class and providing more depth so that she, at least, has some understanding of why she's doing what she's doing and what the theological bases are for those acts. I personally think that the level set for that catechesis may have been appropriate for an illiterate audience of catechumens (students)...to provide them some memorizable information so that they could learn the fundamentals of the faith without needing to learn to read (which, face it, up to about 75-100 years ago in this country, and even to this day in many places in the world is the case with large segments of populations). But in a literate society, such as is the case for the most part in the US and in Europe, that level of depth is simply insufficient. It's not that the information is not there: it's that they don't take the time to teach it in any way.
(Btw, this is not a statement against Catholicism, this is a statement against how those in charge of the stewardship of Catholicism are not exercising their responsibilities properly -- in most cases)
On the other hand, I wonder how this laziness issue impacts most church-goers, regardless of where they go to church. Whether we're talking Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, or whatever. I wonder how high a percentage of folks actually work to learn what it is they believe and how high a percentage of folks just go there and either don't concern themselves or blindly accept what they're taught?
One other thing: there is one fundamental difference though that I would want to point out contrasting the mental laziness in Catholicism (and other legitimate ecclesiastical bodies) versus the mental laziness in TWI:
That is, imho, a HUGE difference!
However, as always, YMMV.
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T-Bone
Allan, I don’t classify former or current members of TWI as “non-thinkers”. What I said was TWI had a tendency to suppress thinking in its followers. By that, I meant they discouraged critical thinking. And I was referring to my personal experience with TWI – for my 12 years of involvement I have to admit the “critical thinking” function of MY brain and TWI stuff was an atrophied muscle.
What is critical thinking? A simple description is the mental process of analyzing, evaluating, questioning, and checking information coming into our heads – in order to ensure we’re making a good decision. It also involves reflection – we even can turn a critical eye inward – think about the way we think. Critical thinking is a vital tool that people use all the time – asking a sales rep lots of questions about a product, checking out a company to see if it would fit with our career goals before we apply for a job there, etc. When it came to me figuring out what model car to buy – my critical thinking was engaged. When it came to TWI stuff – I swallowed it completely – no questions asked.
Why do I say TWI discouraged critical thinking in matters of faith? Here’s a quote from a handout LCM gave us in the Corps in December ’85: “If you think there’s any help outside The Way Ministry, if you think there’s anyone else out there standing on the accuracy of the Word of God, you’re wrong. They may have bits and pieces, but all of that is just a counterfeit; it’s crumbling; it’s dying. The Christian Fundamentalist and Evangelical world is a hodge podge of doctrinal confusion and ego.”
I remember how I used to think – that there is no outside, no where else to go. About a year after I left TWI I read a book “The Closing of the American Mind” by Allan Bloom and found a quote in it: “Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even especially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.”
Allan, I don’t think TWI had cornered the market on suppressing critical thinking. You said with my way of reasoning there must be numerous Trinitarian churches full of ‘non-thinkers.’ I’d like to refine that a bit by saying it doesn’t matter what church you look at – you’ll always find some who are there just because they’re following the crowd. Let me put it a different way: “The beliefs in your belief system are they yours – or someone else’s?” For instance I used to believe that Jesus Christ is not God – a belief I adopted from VPW’s book. Now I believe Jesus Christ is God - a conviction that I have come to after much personal study and reflection [critical thinking]. I don’t condemn people who think Jesus is not God. Who’s to say my critical thinking is 100 % right – no one’s is. I like Goey’s comments – “the trinity is not a big deal for me anymore…I don’t see where being Trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides…”
My point in all this is that critical thinking is a powerful and vital tool! The way you’ve developed your belief system is important. In matters of faith I mindlessly adopted a belief system that was conveniently handed to me on a platter called PFAL. There’s a way I’d like to explain the difference between adopting another person’s beliefs and figuring things out for yourself. I liken it to my older brother giving me a 1967 Chevy Malibu [he paid only $200 for it and fixed it up for me] when I was 17 years old. It ran great and best of all – I got it free. Years later, having to spend my hard-earned money on a vehicle, I read Consumer Reports on the maintenance record of vehicles I was interested in, as well as test-driving them, talking to people who owned them, etc. – so I bought a Honda Accord. With the Chevy – the only choice I had was if I wanted to accept it or not. I bought a Honda after putting a lot of thought into what was important to me [low maintenance, options, cost, etc.].
Being a newcomer to Grease Spot Café here’s some thoughts of my Café experience thus far and why I come here. I haven’t figured it all out. I’m not trying to lead a bunch of people along the path of my way of thinking. I look at Grease Spot as a forum of critical thinkers. Why do I come here? Because it’s therapeutic. My signature line “exceeding abundantly above all the bs” is a GOAL of mine – I’m not there yet – and won’t be in this lifetime.
Now there’s a big difference in the way I put thoughts together and communicate to others. In TWI my motivation in teaching and communicating was often to impress others with my knowledge or manipulate them to do something I thought they should do. I’m not saying I have pure motives now – I’m still self-centered. I come to the Café for healing, closure on my TWI years, and to develop my critical thinking. It’s painful to the ego but necessary for change and growth when people shoot down my bs.
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