Acceptible behavior

[rascal]

When I was posting on the m&a thread...I was struck by a thought....

So many times I am trying to understand and reconcile the sins of twi leaders and whether or not they are our christian brothers who stumbled and consequently are in need our love and forgiveness .... or rather false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing....folks whom need to be avoided and whom should be soundly condemned....someone against whom we are to guard and protect each other.

The justification for continued respect and forgiveness of these people is invariably that Saul and David did really rotten stuff but were still ok in God`s book......that Paul killed Christians before becoming a Christian...etc

What I couldn`t reconcile is the fruit aspect....Christians that I now know after leaving twi ... just automatically start manifesting the fruit of the spirit listed in Galatians when they begin life as a Christian.........apparently because when they are born again...they are changed on the inside....it isn`t something we strive to do.....it is simply what we either are or are not.

You know .... how we are supposed to recognise one another.

So here we have these terribly destructive folks who claim to be Christians with a vast knowledge of the scriptures.....yet are at times visciously destructive.....we need to cut em some slack because God forgave David and Saul....so we just need to forgive twi leaders and move on....problem is...those are contradictory to the instructions given scripturally for guys who behave like our leaders did.

It just now dawned on me .(maybe I AM a little slow lol) ......that THESE guys (Saul and David, and Paul before the new birth) were not born again....THESE guys were in the old testament....THESE guys were held to a completely different standard than the Christians.... these guys were considered natural man/servants by twi standards....they didn`t have that in spirit action action to guide them or behave as adopted sons............they were not expected to demonstrate fruit of the spirit or have it`s guidance!

The new birth is supposed to have created something very different inside of us....something that dramatically changes us on the inside...something that is SO powerfull that we generally begin to exhibit fruit of the spirit as a matter of course ...we embark on a spiritual journey of growth and guidance..the old man ways hold no appeal for us.....it is so dramatic that we are to even be identified by that fruit!!

What I am saying is.... that because David and Saul were good men who invariably screwed up.....are entirely different scenarios than someone who claims to be a Christian and uses the freedom in Christ as a license to sin.....egregiously harming so many of the body of Christ in the process.

What is required of us as Christians concerning these two types of people are markedly different.

To sum it all up......

I do not believe that these guys really understood the new birth in spite of their earnestness and knowledge of scriptures.

It would explain so much.......

I think that without realising it......they were living as old testament NATURAL man ... and that this is possibly why there is such a contradiction in various leaders and how the behaved while in twi....

I think we had genuine Christians and though equally as earnest ..... genuine natural men who never truly understood the walk of the spirit.

As genuine Christians .there is an entirely different standard for our behavior......because we have that *in spirit action* to guide us....otherwise I think that we stand the possibility of simply slapping the Christian lable on ourselves and struggle for a lifetime thinking that our scriptural knowledge is what is going to help us become those spiritual people that we long to become.

[skyrider]

When I was posting on the m&a thread...I was struck by a thought....

So many times I am trying to understand and reconcile the sins of twi leaders and whether or not they are our christian brothers who stumbled and consequently are in need our love and forgiveness .... or rather false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing....folks whom need to be avoided and whom should be soundly condemned....someone against whom we are to guard and protect each other.

rascal......I hear what you're saying.

At best, the sins of twi leaders is best described in Romans 6....

.....shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound. God forbid.

.....we are buried with him in baptism into death....should walk in newness of life.

.....likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin....alive unto God thru JC our lord.

.....let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

.....what fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Were vpw, lcm, cgeer and others ashamed of those things? those sins? Apparently not!

At worse, yes those folks were/are false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing and need to be AVOIDED. There is strong evidence that these twi leaders LED PEOPLE AWAY from the truth to follow the doctrines of men.

Their fruit brought them shame.......and destruction to many.

[rascal]

I guess what has the light bulbs going off for me is finally understanding that if it is as we were taught.....what was acceptible and understandible behavior for Saul and David and Paul as natural men...servants .... would not necessarily be acceptible and forgivable behavior in one born again Christian.....a supposed son of God.

I think that is why fruit manifested must be such a big deal...it tells us EXACTLY what is on the inside...in spite of what the person claims to be.

I can understand now how we could have had both very kind loving leaders whom ministered to the people in their fellowships and yet other leaders in the very same organization who were very cruel seemingly without conscience ...who were enormously destructive to the people that they were supposed to minister to.

I think that it may be the difference between living with the genuine new birth and living as a natural man/servant.

One expects more of a son or daughter that has access to the father verses a servant whom just recieves marching orders with no real understanding or communication.

Edited January 30, 2006 by rascal

[rascal]

Then again...maybe I am just looking for an excuse to justify my deep disgust with these people who wrought such damage.

Maybe I am simply looking for an excuse to be unforgiving which isn`t right either....

Just honestly struggeling with my responsibility if I am indeed to claim to be a Christian myself....I know that there was a marked difference in the way Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery and the way he treated the pharacees and money changers...or those who would hurt a child :(

Is there a difference between old testament and new concerning acceptable standards for treatment of one another?

A difference between new birth and natural man.....sonship and servant?

A difference between genuine new birth and counterfit?

Edited January 30, 2006 by rascal

[Nottawayfer]

I don't think so Rascal. I think how people were treated between administrations was culturally-based or personality-based. Some people are just plain buttheads and never apologize. Some are remorseful after a period of time, and some are remorseful instantaneously.

But then again, people can be remorseful and forget they were and continue on with their wrongs. They can be forgiven again and again. I struggle with this because I want them to pay NOW! But it's not up to me, and maybe God likes it that way. ;)

[templelady]

When the Bible says "forgive" it does not say "forget" in fact if you read carefully Forgetting Sin is God's arena not ours. This "forgive and Forget" is is PI of mans

When I say my nightly prayers I try to remember to put in a section that goes something like "don;t hold my enemies sins against them on my account, please make sure they have a warm, dry, safe place to sleep, enough to eat, and enough clothes"

I have forgiven them in the sense I don;t want their sins held against them by God. Which, if you think about it, is why forgiveness is really necessary in a Christian;s life anyway--because God is more than willing to release vengeance on our behalf if we want it--but then in fairness he has to release vengeance on us when it is requested too. That is why we are to "forgive". Nowhere does the Bible say we are to clasp the viper back to our bosoms and let it sting again. One can love your enemy and follow the Bible without letting said enemy back in your door.

In fact, it would be the height of foolishness to "forget" for by forgetting you would forget how to recognize the viper when he shows at your door in another guise

[Shellon]

What always occurs to me is that when someone wrongs or hurts me I spend MUCH more time on it than they do.

[topoftheworld]

I've had the same struggles as Rascal in trying to comprehend why we were treated the way we were, why so-called Godly people behaved in oh so not Godly ways. By accepting Romans 10: 9,10 and manifesting our faith via speaking in tongues, we are changed from natural to spiritual. That being the case, being made new, should have a cause and effect in our understanding and treatment of ourselves and others. In seeking to become more spiritual, we looked to the Word and tried to absorb it, and to the leaders to emulate how they manifested spirituality. We believe that acceptance of Christ is a warm blanket we wear proudly, and everybody should see it, recognize it, and act accordingly. That's what makes the Old Testament believer different from the New.

Faith-accepting things we cannot see, things without evidence as true-is the essence of being Christian. What does not change is free will. The magic switch that makes us behave in accordance with our faith is one, I think, we have control over. I decide how to speak, walk, dress, act. But someone had to teach me how to tie my shoes. How that person taught me is their responsibilty. Did they teach me how to tie my shoes acccording to an acceptable standard? Maybe not. But I accepted on faith that their way was the correct way, so that's how I tie my shoes to this day.

So here we had some people, who, born again Christians as they claimed to be, decided to behave in with non-acceptable standard that they tried to pass of as standard. Many of us had moments when we felt the false notes of their behavior or teaching. For me, issues in the early years were simply with people who through their own weaknesses, caused me grief: I passed that off as simple the price of dealing with other humans. But as my connections grew higher into the ministry, more and more of this "human-ness" came to light. And I had an immediate conflict. If, as spiritual beings, these people were making decisons that were causing harm, how did that mesh with what we were being taught? I remember clearly one of my biggest shocks was the first time in the Corps that I visited Headquarters. I thought, cool, I'll be able to see how true spirtuality moves in God's children making decisions for God's people. Instead, I find a bunch of very human people and a atmosphere that was tense. These people were acting like anybody else in any company I've ever worked in: what's in it for them?

The final straw for my was a "conversation" with a Corps Coordinator. I had been through a lot during my time in the Corp, and was looking forward to graduation. But something very minor occured that was blown it something way out of porportion. After the confrontation, I walked away wondering how this very spirtual leader could have come to such a wrong conclusion, and it made me re-evaluate a lot of other things. I left, however, feeling a total failure. I have finally come to accept the concept of free will, and how it is so easy for us to make conscious decisons which are contrary to the warm blanket idea. I, however, am not leading a whole ministry. I think Craig enjoyed his power: he was never so happy as when he could get all wound up and explode: it was his nature and he would not recognize or control it. If he was what the measure of a leader was, then others who had the same nature could excuse their own behaviour and act as he did. Same for VPW: whatever he set out to accomplish became perverted through his own weaknesses: power, control, attention, sex-whatever it was.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a free will decision is made by us all everyday, and we can choose to use that free will gift for good or evil. There may be diofferent definations of what "good" means, but there is little doubt about evil, or evil intentions. But they made a decision to follow their natures, and a lot of us have paid the price.

IMHO.

Edited January 30, 2006 by topoftheworld

[Belle]

The new birth is supposed to have created something very different inside of us....something that dramatically changes us on the inside...something that is SO powerfull that we generally begin to exhibit fruit of the spirit as a matter of course ...we embark on a spiritual journey of growth and guidance..the old man ways hold no appeal for us.....it is so dramatic that we are to even be identified by that fruit!!

What I am saying is.... that because David and Saul were good men who invariably screwed up.....are entirely different scenarios than someone who claims to be a Christian and uses the freedom in Christ as a license to sin.....egregiously harming so many of the body of Christ in the process.

What is required of us as Christians concerning these two types of people are markedly different.

To sum it all up......

I do not believe that these guys really understood the new birth in spite of their earnestness and knowledge of scriptures.

It would explain so much.......

I think that without realising it......they were living as old testament NATURAL man ... and that this is possibly why there is such a contradiction in various leaders and how the behaved while in twi....

Very keen observations, Rascal-ly one! ;) They taught and expected us to treat them like OT kings, didn't they? The women of the village belong to the king. The audacious way they expected and demanded that we treat them like royalty. Their love for and desire for punishments OT style.... I think you just may be onto something here!

A leader, pastor, care-er of God’s flock is to be found blameless. Paul became blameless once he was converted. He became blameless. Vee pee, craig, rosie, et al, were never found blameless – even during the thick of it and even near the end of it. They were never blameless and they never repented publicly as they should have. That’s against the word and commandment for leadership – period – end of story, imo.

The bad and negative things that David, Saul, Judas, etc. did in the Bible were reported, handled and shown to us warts & all. Things aren’t swept under the rug and we do not see these men making this same error again. Why, then, are the sins of TWI leadership in all their deception and exploitation always covered up and excuses made for them?

Vee pee, craig and rfr never admitted to anyone that they were wrong. They had an attitude of arrogance and pride and would not even listen to those who tried to correct them. … The Word of God shows us that if anyone has the mind of Christ … there will be good fruit produced and there will be a true turning from sin.

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat" (I Cor. 5:11).

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (II Timothy 3:5)

They only have a “form” of godliness and we can tell by their actions that they are in no way, shape or form afraid or concerned about the truthfulness of what they teach and being held accountable for raping, murdering and destroying God’s sheep.

[markomalley]

A leader, pastor, care-er of God’s flock is to be found blameless. Paul became blameless once he was converted. He became blameless. Vee pee, craig, rosie, et al, were never found blameless – even during the thick of it and even near the end of it. They were never blameless and they never repented publicly as they should have. That’s against the word and commandment for leadership – period – end of story, imo.

The bad and negative things that David, Saul, Judas, etc. did in the Bible were reported, handled and shown to us warts & all. Things aren’t swept under the rug and we do not see these men making this same error again. Why, then, are the sins of TWI leadership in all their deception and exploitation always covered up and excuses made for them?

Vee pee, craig and rfr never admitted to anyone that they were wrong. They had an attitude of arrogance and pride and would not even listen to those who tried to correct them. … The Word of God shows us that if anyone has the mind of Christ … there will be good fruit produced and there will be a true turning from sin.

They only have a “form” of godliness and we can tell by their actions that they are in no way, shape or form afraid or concerned about the truthfulness of what they teach and being held accountable for raping, murdering and destroying God’s sheep.

This is a fundamental aspect of the sick word-faith theology taught by TWI. The same name-it-and-claim-it theology that makes man god and God a slave. This same theology that produced the Bakkers, Tiptons, and Swaggerts of the world.

As long as they keep with those fundamentals as the core of their theology and neglect the Gospel (remember, it's not addressed "to" us, it's only addressed "for our understanding" {{ barf}}), any change you see will only be a change in veneer, not a change in the heart, where it's needed.

As always IMHO and YMMV

[rascal]

See I cannot imagine personally enjoying rape fornication drunkeness...destroying fellow christians etc....To me it seems that something is wrong with someone who habitually indulges in those behaviors... imo .......something missing inside ...I just wonder if rather than being a personality flaw or bad choices.....it could be an absence of Holy Spirit.

I don`t think people have these issues when they are *of the spirit* or we wouldn`t be given specific lists of behaviors of those who were and who were not.....

Edited January 30, 2006 by rascal

[themex]

I guess what has the light bulbs going off for me is finally understanding that if it is as we were taught.....what was acceptible and understandible behavior for Saul and David and Paul as natural men...servants .... would not necessarily be acceptible and forgivable behavior in one born again Christian.....a supposed son of God.

I think that is why fruit manifested must be such a big deal...it tells us EXACTLY what is on the inside...in spite of what the person claims to be.

I can understand now how we could have had both very kind loving leaders whom ministered to the people in their fellowships and yet other leaders in the very same organization who were very cruel seemingly without conscience ...who were enormously destructive to the people that they were supposed to minister to.

I think that it may be the difference between living with the genuine new birth and living as a natural man/servant.

One expects more of a son or daughter that has access to the father verses a servant whom just recieves marching orders with no real understanding or communication.

The main problem was the BOT/BOD, also LCM teaching style. He thought he was a football coach, and we believers were his players. But life is to much more complicated. Also the doctrinal error that they carried. But I think that is good to forgive them. Also make a distinction between the good and the bad TWI leaders. Not ol of them were bad.

[johniam]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but in this administration, we ARE under grace and the gift of holy spirit does not operate us. There's nothing wrong with you for being disgusted or feeling unforgiving.

Consider that David was anointed by Samuel and the spirit of the Lord came on him from that day forward (1 Sam 16:13). The only difference between the spirit David received and the gift of holy spirit we all received is that ours is permanent because Christ is in us and David's wasn't. There is no difference in the quality of the spirit.

When David had caused Uriah the Hittite to be killed as the ultimate result of his adultery with Bathsheba, he begged God to not take his holy spirit from him (Psalm 51). In other words, David did all that stuff even though he had the same spirit of the Lord upon him.

I attended a meeting with John Shroyer of CFF. After the meeting I conversed with him a bit and he said LCM actually was very loving with his own children. JS wished he was that way with GOD'S kids also. I'm sure VPW could be loving as well.

I dunno, Rascal. People are just no damn good.

[justloafing]

John, the only thing I can see is that stupid button with a string tied to it and a glass of water.

I am still believing they did not believe what they taught us. They taught what they taught us to keep us in bondage so they (twi leadership) could do whatever they wanted to do with us. Mostly take our money and to satisfy their own pleasures.

[Sunesis]

Well, the scripture that says it for me, is no marvel, Satan's ministers are transformed into angels of light.

I truly think, as in many churches, many times, the leadership is not born again. Rather, they lead their flock away from the truth, Christ, than towards the truth.

Ask yourself, where did TWI lead you?

I honestly believe some high-ranking TWIers, including VP, were not born again. They loved the power and men's adulation.

I also believe many higher ups were/are born again, but have had to squelch the small voice within to survive the TWI lifestyle. Give them a couple of years out, and their true, authentic self returns. They shed the false spiritual "persona" mask they wore for years. And it is liberating - there's nothing better than to be your "true" self.

I think the vast majority of us regular believers, and even corps were born again - I know the people I hung out with were wonderful and would never dreamed of treating people in the callous way leadership did. In TWI, the saying was illustrated - birds of a feather flocked together.

[tomtuttle1]

Wouldn't THAT be a hoot, to one day find out VP and some others were not even born-again??

[markomalley]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but in this administration, we ARE under grace and the gift of holy spirit does not operate us. There's nothing wrong with you for being disgusted or feeling unforgiving.

Consider that David was anointed by Samuel and the spirit of the Lord came on him from that day forward (1 Sam 16:13). The only difference between the spirit David received and the gift of holy spirit we all received is that ours is permanent because Christ is in us and David's wasn't. There is no difference in the quality of the spirit.

Seems to me that the way that their ability to lead should be judged is as follows:

1Ti 3:1

The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.

1Ti 3:2

Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,

1Ti 3:3

no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.

1Ti 3:4

He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way;

1Ti 3:5

for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God's church?

1Ti 3:6

He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil;

1Ti 3:7

moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

1Ti 3:8

Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain;

1Ti 3:9

they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

1Ti 3:10

And let them also be tested first; then if they prove themselves blameless let them serve as deacons.

1Ti 3:11

The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things.

1Ti 3:12

Let deacons be the husband of one wife, and let them manage their children and their households well;

1Ti 3:13

for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Tts 1:5

This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you,

Tts 1:6

if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of being profligate or insubordinate.

Tts 1:7

For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

Tts 1:8

but hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself, upright, holy, and self-controlled;

Tts 1:9

he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it.

Tts 1:10

For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially the circumcision party;

Tts 1:11

they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for base gain what they have no right to teach.

Tts 1:12

One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."

But, hey, YMMV.

[rascal]

The phrase *ever searching but never coming to a knowledge of the truth* comes to mind in this case.

Some of our leaders were probably very earnest in their believing that biblical research was the key to becoming spiritual.

To me this smacks of works...something that we are trying to do ourselves....operating keys and principles taking classes....rather than the genuine life altering change within that the new birth and introduction of holy spirit is supposed to be.

Again, I think that the presence of fruit is a direct representative of what is inside.....something that we can see and thereby identify genuine fellow Christians.

I earnestly want to be a genuine christian ... not simply making excuse for why there is not fruit evidenced in my life.

I don`t want to confuse the new birth and consequent growth..... with doing works with a view to based on spiritual growth.

It seems like from my first introduction to twi....Growing with God was always based on fullfilling some requirement...

*take this class* to grow with God

*Go out wow* to grow with God

*Live in a way home* to grow with God...

*Take the advanced class* to grow with God....

*Go into the way corpes* to grow with God....

*Witness* *Tithe* *Fellowship* ....all things that WE did thinking that this in and of itself would increase our in depth spiritual perception and awareness.....

We have recited Romans 10:9 &10 and are going to heaven and all hell cannot prevent us no matter how we behave....

Counter this with seemingly instantanious changes in folks upon the new birth ....where drugs and drinking and harmfull behavior lose their appeal......their behavior changes from something that has happened within them.

I have a feeling that you may very well be right Sunesis. :(

What worries me is how many of us continue to follow this possibly faulty formula.... will be told to *depart for he knew us not* ....

[markomalley]

The phrase *ever searching but never coming to a knowledge of the truth* comes to mind in this case.

Some of our leaders were probably very earnest in their believing that biblical research was the key to becoming spiritual.

To me this smacks of works...something that we are trying to do ourselves....operating keys and principles taking classes....rather than the genuine life altering change within that the new birth and introduction of holy spirit is supposed to be.

Again, I think that the presence of fruit is a direct representative of what is inside.....something that we can see and thereby identify genuine fellow Christians.

I earnestly want to be a genuine christian ... not simply making excuse for why there is not fruit evidenced in my life.

I don`t want to confuse the new birth and consequent growth..... with doing works with a view to based on spiritual growth.

Rascal,

I sympathize with you more than you could possibly know. I was reading through some stuff this morning (conveniently enough) and would like to suggest the following:

...(Let me) clarify further this aspect of salvific liberation which is the work of Christ. It belongs to the very essence of his messianic mission. Jesus spoke of it himself. In the parable of the Good Shepherd, for example, he said, "I have come that they (the sheep) may have life and have it to the full" (Jn 10:10). He is referring to the abundance of new life which is a sharing in the life of God himself. Again in this way the newness of the humanity of Christ is realized in man as being a new creation.

That is what Jesus says in figurative but evocative language in his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well in Sychar. "'If you only knew the gift of God and who it is who is saying to you "Give me to drink," you would have been the one to ask and he would have given you living water.' The woman said to him, 'Sir, you have no means of reaching down and the well is deep, how could you get this living water?' Jesus replied: 'Whoever drinks this water will get thirsty again; but anyone who drinks the water that I shall give, will never be thirsty again. The water that I shall give will turn into a spring inside him welling up to eternal life'" (Jn 4:10-14).

Jesus also repeated this truth in similar words to the crowd, when he was teaching them during the feast of Tabernacles. "Whoever is thirsty, let him come to me and let whoever believes in me come and drink. As Scripture says, from his breast shall flow a river of living water" (Jn 7:37-38). Rivers of living water are an image of the new life in which men share by virtue of the death of Christ on the cross. The tradition of the Fathers and the liturgy understand in the same sense the text of John which stated that from the side (the heart) of Christ, after his death on the cross there came forth blood and water when a Roman soldier struck his side (cf. Jn 19:34).

According to an interpretation which is dear to many of the oriental Fathers and now accepted by different exegetes, rivers of living water shall also flow from the breast of the man who drinks the water of the truth and grace of Christ. "From the breast" means from the heart. A new heart is created within man as the prophets announced very clearly, especially Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

In Jeremiah we read: "This will be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel when those days arrive, says the Lord. I will plant my law and write it in their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people" (Jer 31:33). Ezekiel states even more explicitly: "I shall give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I shall remove the heart of stone from you and give you a heart of flesh instead. I shall put my spirit in you and make you live according to my precepts and make you observe and keep my laws" (Ez 36:26-27).

It is a question therefore of

a profound spiritual transformation which God himself works within man

by means of "the breath of his Spirit" (cf. Ez 36:26). The rivers of living water of which Jesus spoke mean the source of a new life which is life in the spirit and in truth, a life worthy of "true adorers of the Father" (Jn 4:23-24).

Is that the kind of stuff you're talking about?

[FreeFromCults]

Acceptible behavior.

If it's according to TWI's definition, it's nothing more than their Double Standard: "They can do whatever they want because they are more spiritually mature while you can only do as we say."

What a bunch of crap!!!!

[Sunesis]

I believe true, profound change, comes from God working in our lives. It is the holy spirit that convicts us, and enables us to change.

When we follow Christ, we will change.

In TWI, we studied the Word and retemorized it, or memorized it, or repeated a verse over and over, like a mantra. Most of us never really changed.

I realized years ago, retemories, renewed mind, or whatever rule was in vogue in TWI - it was futile, it was a work of the flesh. Flesh can never be, become, or be transformed into, spirit or peer into God's kingdom.

Anyone can memorize the Bible. Wasn't it Nikita Kruschev, who had the gospels memorized? Just because LCM, with a photographic memory, can memorize and spew it and wow the corps, what good did it do him? What good did it do VP?

We are flesh. We are a fallen race. Occassionally, God gives us a glimpse into another place. This carries us.

This is why it is grace - the only way we can know anything of the spirit is by grace, what God chooses to reveal to us, what we certainly don't deserve to know. We are flesh, for anyone to think he can raise himself up enough to peer into the spirit realm, they are fooling themselves.

That's why its grace, and that's why someday, we will be a new creation - sons of God. We will then have the new body, mind and tools to enter the spiritual kingdom - freely given to us by God - not of our works. All of creation waits for this - for our true, new selves to be revealed.

I long ago gave up on doing this or that. It was very freeing. I acknowledge God and he honors that. Any change that is needed, trust me, he will let you know and he will give you the desire to carry it out.

And that is why, I cannot comprehend how some of our leadership was cruel, destructive and psychopathic in their total lack of empathy or heart. They had no knowledge of God in their soul. I really believe, someone who is truly born again, could never act that way towards others.

I just think it simply comes down to, some in power simply weren't born again. That's why they got an almost sadistic pleasure in leading the flock on some strange paths.

[themex]

I honestly believe some high-ranking TWIers, including VP, were not born again. They loved the power and men's adulation.

They loved the power and men´s adulation but they were born again.

[rascal]

Sunesis, that is the only thing that makes any sense to me :(

There is a scripture saying something to the effect of *how can you say that you love God whom you cannot see when you do not love these whom you can?

Top leaders in twi were many times quite cruel in their treatment of us...some of their actions life altering devistating to innocent souls....

These are not the actions of people working for God.....

I think that we thought we were....but I begin to feel as if rather than getting closer, we were being drawn away.....thinking that our knowledge was going to make us spiritual.

[dmiller]

1John 4:20

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:

for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen,

how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Edited January 31, 2006 by dmiller

[topoftheworld]

I say that sums it, D.