Ya know, I used to embrace this mindset without hesitation, thinking of how ohhh so loving it was, and all that. You know, we were nothing but worthless slime and e-v-i-l people by nature, unable to even make a morally right decision on our own. But then His grace saved us, and now we are pure and righteous and worth something once again, and so forth and so on.
While the love and grace I can appreciate, particularly when people show it to each other, I now can't help but to wonder how many doors of *control* the 'we were worthless scum' mentality has, and still does open for guilt trips, brow beating, people like Sick Vic, and statements like "Who are YOU to question what the church has taught you" and like sentiments? ... And over hundreds and hundreds of years of fine tuning and revising that model of *control*.
Something like this has been going through my head too, dear {{{{{ExC}}}}}. And you know me...I'll think and think and think about something...and keep on thinking and talking and listening until I find something that makes sense out of the whole thing. Ya know?
Well, what is the unworthy stuff about anyway? It seems to be a no-brainer...but that's the problem, isn't...no brains in the whole concept as it is typically perceived.
I dunno 'the answer' about it all, but here are some thoughts coming out of my cognitive state...(and I won't be offended one bit if you really aren't interested...in fact, I get that! lol)...
A child brings something to his/her parents and says, "See what I made/did/can do!" The child is expecting acceptance, approval, praise and love. The child wants to make his/her parents proud of him/her. The child is not really thinking about his/her parents, but him/herself.
Well, I think that too often this is how people approach God.
But sooner or later a child grows up...hopefully. What he/she does for or gives to his/her parents is done out of love for the parents, not out of needing to fulfill him/herself in some way. When this now grown child looks at his/her parents, he/she sees and understands all the parents have done for him/her and, although greatly appreciative, knows that the parents do not expect anything in return, any repayment, and certainly do not expect a lifetime of groveling at their feet feeling unworthy of what the did for him/her.
The happiest moment for a parent is when a child takes all that has been done for him/her and goes on to live well, be well, do well, and treat others well. A parent never wants a child to grow up to be forever feeling a heavy burden to 'live up to' or repay in any way what was given while being raised. (OK, a vast majority of parents these days do seem to want this, but that's just selfish and poor parenting, imo. But for the sake of discussion, let's pretend that parents are decent. ;) )
Anyway, I've been thinking that perhaps God is like this...that perhaps God gets really sick and tired of our neediness and self-loathing and all the stuff that we make of ourselves when all we seek in life is approval, acceptance and praise.
I think at some point God expects us to grow up and live life well, think of ourselves in a good light, realize that we are capable and competent and that what we do can be done only by ourself, and if the world was without us, the world would be missing a piece of the big picture.
Nobody can ever be 'worthy' of what a parent does for a child to raise him/her safely to adulthood. Nobody can ever be 'worthy' of what God has done and does do for us.
I think that the whole premise of the question of 'unworthy' is false and leads down a slippery slope of sorrow, dashed hopes and expectations, and a whole lot of nastiness that is just not necessary!
I dont know Cool--I think that feeling of vulnerability and inadequacy that we all experience at one time or another is a valid part of our makeups. Not a big part, but a part nonetheless... For most people it doesn't rise all the time--but can once in awhile to remind us of the fragility of life..and it probably should....not in a self loathing sort of way but in away to remind us to continue to search. It can be a catalyst for growth.
Personally I'd rather deal with someone in this boat who was unsure of themselves than someone who had all the answers to everything
In the big picture most of us, although we would like to think of ourselves as strong and powerful most of the time, are actually fragile beings that are pretty powerless against alot of things. (death..disease..sorrow...suffering etc). Its not all bad to flash on that once in awhile, although it certainly isnt very good to stay in that state for very long . It can be a wake up from the million day to day things that distract us and remind us of who we are and aren't and needs for community, growth, rebalancing or as the song says grace and mercy
The Institution of Theway would have benefitted alot if they didn't get so big headed about things and realized humbly that they were beggars once in awhile
During my twi years, the concept of "unworthiness" versus "completely completly complete" was rammed down my throat...just "claim your sonship rights" was what I was told...like walking into a convienient store and cashing in a winning lotto ticket. It was a state of mind...simply concentrate hard enough (stay your mind), and viola!...Suddenly you could walk on water and cast out demons...but of course, if you didn't cash in your spiritual lotto ticket, you were just a scum bag loser...
...I believe that twi over emphasized the "free ride" concept for several reasons:
1- As Garth said, it gave twi a certain element of control over people...whenever they wanted to put you in your place, they simply reminded you that you born a lowlife until THEY showed you how to scratch off the winning ticket.
2-It gave them a license to sin and still be okey dokey (that way, Vic could get drunk every day and take girls into the back of the motorcoach and STILL be the great mog)
3-self realization and accomplishment didn't exist...you had to wear the twi decoder ring or else it didn't really count....which translates into "give us your money".
Life is not that black and white...one moment you're "in fellowship", the next moment you're "out of fellowship"...nothing in between. Just say the magic words and all is well. No...we are all fragile, have many weaknesses and eventually will die. Our lives are made up of a multitude of moral decisions, mistakes and events that are quite out of our control...thoughts that are layered and complex...self realization and personal accomplishments come through hard work and painful experiences...and just when you think things are going well, some doctor gives you "the bad news" or somebody robs your house or your dog gets run over...life is tough and there's no free lotto ticket.
Where does God fit into all of this?...We struggle to maintain our faith, when things go our way, we thank God...when things go bad, we wonder if there IS a God...We are born with genetic predispositions, a skin covered skeleton stuffed with bodily organs that deteriorate with time, living in a world where evil runs rampant and very few people give a rat's foot whether you live or die. The challenge of life is to find value and meaning...and to hope that someday God will rescue us from our graves...I find it very difficult to believe in the twi mentality of " believers go to heaven and unbelievers are destined for eternal death"...if personal accountibility doesn't fit into the equation, then why are we even here? Life is hard...
Unworthy...broken fellowship...consequences of sin, unbelief...
In my childhood I was raised Roman Catholic, the old fashioned type, where Irish priests and nuns taught that only Catholics would go to heaven, and dying with a mortal sin, like missing Mass, would send you straight to hell. Scary stuff for me, I was the ulta pleaser type little girl, not a rebellious bone in there, and I always felt I was one bus accident away from hell.
Then TWI. Sheesh. At first the no hell doctrine seemed like great freedom. but then I came to understand that I was in control through my believing of all kinds of stuff, an absolute fantasy. How many thousands of things happened during my twenty some years of 'believing' that didn't go the right way, or popped up unexpectedly--but somehow I was responsible for these negative things, I should have know? Or something. How many times in later years did we go through all kinds of reproof crap because of our 'believing'?
I left TWI doctrine several years ago ( in 2001 I chose to do a Year and a day of pagan /Wiccan study), but it still lingers with its unworthy, broken fellowship refrains and impossible standards.
Not too long ago I was diagnosed with a chronic illness, one I've probably had a decade or more, one I've never heard of (I don't think my family doctor had heard of it either, haha.) I spent a week trying to figure how I got it before sanity arrived. Who knows? The medical establishment doesn't know, you can't take a certain vitamin and avoid it. Some people get it, some don't...like so many things in life.
So once again I have to remind myself that I no longer waste energy trying to figure out the whys of things I can't control, and try to hoist the old brain around to something positive and helpful.
I went to my first ROA just a few weeks after taking the class.
I was excited and happy to see some of the folks I had met in the class , I would ask "how are you?" and the reply was often "As HE is".
I spent a few days wondering who "he" was then is got the concept, that many believed they where christ in the flesh , really.
Have you looked at the life ,particulary the "ministry",of Jesus Christ?
it was only about 3years before he was murdered and most of it was like the worst horror story you could think of, every kind of betrayal, hardship, temptations , work, all kind of horrid experiences a person could face in life and then He died.
3 years of living hell really, ok ok through in He accomplished some healing that He was seldom credited with and taught lessons no one really wanted to hear, not to metion problems with His own family and those He employed.
really it reads like a horror story. "As He is " you say today I would say um no thanks. I do not think His life on earth was noble or full of honor .
it was miserable, once He declared His mission.
I think He did that so we do not have to be miserable anymore. But I often still am anyway.
life is hard, and I have had to many lessons . I wish my lessons only lasted three years in life.
and Jesus christ never sinned , I have paid a price for my sins and bad choices not like HIM at all.
I do not live "As He is" and He may have promised to send a comfort , to help me. that tells me life is still going to have trouble.
so we look to death( or the gathering) for the great HOPE of better days?
Ya know, I used to embrace this mindset without hesitation, thinking of how ohhh so loving it was, and all that. You know, we were nothing but worthless slime and e-v-i-l people by nature, unable to even make a morally right decision on our own. But then His grace saved us, and now we are pure and righteous and worth something once again, and so forth and so on.
While the love and grace I can appreciate, particularly when people show it to each other, I now can't help but to wonder how many doors of *control* the 'we were worthless scum' mentality has, and still does open for guilt trips, brow beating, people like Sick Vic, and statements like "Who are YOU to question what the church has taught you" and like sentiments? ... And over hundreds and hundreds of years of fine tuning and revising that model of *control*.
And some people wonder why others doubt. <_<
Anywho Ex, good start for a thread.
B)
Whoah, heavy reaction there, Garth. Got some issues, buddy?
I feel the overriding problem in DaWey was somewhat opposite. People were taught to think they were supermen, "controlling their thoughts" and bleeeeving for Big Things. And, as you know, one of our defining characteristics as a group was overwhelming arrogance.
A bit of humility would have helped. :blink:
I think they used dumb thinking to control people, just other dumb thinking.
_________
Funny, this issue came up in our congregation. One person strenuously objected to the idea that we are unworthy. He may have been thinking of this hymn, in fact, when he protested that He made us worthy. Nice thought, but it has no biblical support. Not once are we ever called worthy. Jesus is, though. and, to extend the thought, God doesn't just accept everybody. That is a great misconception. But all those who approach Him in faith are "made holy & acceptable before Him in love." What is universal and unequivocal is God's love. He loves everybody of all time so much he gave his son to die for them, even for those who wouldn't accept Christ's work for them.
Issues? ... Yeah, I got some issues, ... big ones. ....
... like with people who use the "We are unworthy" concept as a means of control, mental browbeating, guilt tripping, (and of course, who can leave out extracting more money, donchaknow ), and basically letting people know what worthless scum we humans supposedly are. I see it all the time, from TWI's infamous manipulation to more mainstream tactics used to keep people in the fold and unquestioning to whatever orthodox dogma they are taught. And that concept just lends itself to these things so well!
So yeah, ((sigh)) looks like you're right. .... Gad, I hope it isn't terminal. :unsure:
... You think it might be covered by Blue Cross?
A bit of humility would have helped.
No doubt it would have, in order to deal with the overreaching arrogance. But, like all extremes, there is always at least two ends to consider, and I am of the opinion that the "We are not worthy" browbeating variety is but a flip side of the arrogance you speak of.
Contrary to some fundamentalist doctrines, we human beings are not evil by nature. We aren't 'supermen' either. We're basically ... human.
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topoftheworld
You've always got us.
Love from a fellow beggar
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GarthP2000
Ya know, I used to embrace this mindset without hesitation, thinking of how ohhh so loving it was, and all that. You know, we were nothing but worthless slime and e-v-i-l people by nature, unable to even make a morally right decision on our own. But then His grace saved us, and now we are pure and righteous and worth something once again, and so forth and so on.
While the love and grace I can appreciate, particularly when people show it to each other, I now can't help but to wonder how many doors of *control* the 'we were worthless scum' mentality has, and still does open for guilt trips, brow beating, people like Sick Vic, and statements like "Who are YOU to question what the church has taught you" and like sentiments? ... And over hundreds and hundreds of years of fine tuning and revising that model of *control*.
And some people wonder why others doubt. <_<
Anywho Ex, good start for a thread.
B)
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johniam
and NOW there is kuh reist in me
I know the mystery
here in the BAH dee of kuh REIST I will stay
I believed what God said
He raised Christ from the deh udd
and GOD in His mercy has shown me the way ay.....
apologies to Helen Sudduth
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CoolWaters
Something like this has been going through my head too, dear {{{{{ExC}}}}}. And you know me...I'll think and think and think about something...and keep on thinking and talking and listening until I find something that makes sense out of the whole thing. Ya know?
Well, what is the unworthy stuff about anyway? It seems to be a no-brainer...but that's the problem, isn't...no brains in the whole concept as it is typically perceived.
I dunno 'the answer' about it all, but here are some thoughts coming out of my cognitive state...(and I won't be offended one bit if you really aren't interested...in fact, I get that! lol)...
A child brings something to his/her parents and says, "See what I made/did/can do!" The child is expecting acceptance, approval, praise and love. The child wants to make his/her parents proud of him/her. The child is not really thinking about his/her parents, but him/herself.
Well, I think that too often this is how people approach God.
But sooner or later a child grows up...hopefully. What he/she does for or gives to his/her parents is done out of love for the parents, not out of needing to fulfill him/herself in some way. When this now grown child looks at his/her parents, he/she sees and understands all the parents have done for him/her and, although greatly appreciative, knows that the parents do not expect anything in return, any repayment, and certainly do not expect a lifetime of groveling at their feet feeling unworthy of what the did for him/her.
The happiest moment for a parent is when a child takes all that has been done for him/her and goes on to live well, be well, do well, and treat others well. A parent never wants a child to grow up to be forever feeling a heavy burden to 'live up to' or repay in any way what was given while being raised. (OK, a vast majority of parents these days do seem to want this, but that's just selfish and poor parenting, imo. But for the sake of discussion, let's pretend that parents are decent. ;) )
Anyway, I've been thinking that perhaps God is like this...that perhaps God gets really sick and tired of our neediness and self-loathing and all the stuff that we make of ourselves when all we seek in life is approval, acceptance and praise.
I think at some point God expects us to grow up and live life well, think of ourselves in a good light, realize that we are capable and competent and that what we do can be done only by ourself, and if the world was without us, the world would be missing a piece of the big picture.
Nobody can ever be 'worthy' of what a parent does for a child to raise him/her safely to adulthood. Nobody can ever be 'worthy' of what God has done and does do for us.
I think that the whole premise of the question of 'unworthy' is false and leads down a slippery slope of sorrow, dashed hopes and expectations, and a whole lot of nastiness that is just not necessary!
It's just a stupid question at its root.
IMO
OK, off rant now.
Luv ya.
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mstar1
I dont know Cool--I think that feeling of vulnerability and inadequacy that we all experience at one time or another is a valid part of our makeups. Not a big part, but a part nonetheless... For most people it doesn't rise all the time--but can once in awhile to remind us of the fragility of life..and it probably should....not in a self loathing sort of way but in away to remind us to continue to search. It can be a catalyst for growth.
Personally I'd rather deal with someone in this boat who was unsure of themselves than someone who had all the answers to everything
In the big picture most of us, although we would like to think of ourselves as strong and powerful most of the time, are actually fragile beings that are pretty powerless against alot of things. (death..disease..sorrow...suffering etc). Its not all bad to flash on that once in awhile, although it certainly isnt very good to stay in that state for very long . It can be a wake up from the million day to day things that distract us and remind us of who we are and aren't and needs for community, growth, rebalancing or as the song says grace and mercy
The Institution of Theway would have benefitted alot if they didn't get so big headed about things and realized humbly that they were beggars once in awhile
m
just another hobo on this train
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GrouchoMarxJr
During my twi years, the concept of "unworthiness" versus "completely completly complete" was rammed down my throat...just "claim your sonship rights" was what I was told...like walking into a convienient store and cashing in a winning lotto ticket. It was a state of mind...simply concentrate hard enough (stay your mind), and viola!...Suddenly you could walk on water and cast out demons...but of course, if you didn't cash in your spiritual lotto ticket, you were just a scum bag loser...
...I believe that twi over emphasized the "free ride" concept for several reasons:
1- As Garth said, it gave twi a certain element of control over people...whenever they wanted to put you in your place, they simply reminded you that you born a lowlife until THEY showed you how to scratch off the winning ticket.
2-It gave them a license to sin and still be okey dokey (that way, Vic could get drunk every day and take girls into the back of the motorcoach and STILL be the great mog)
3-self realization and accomplishment didn't exist...you had to wear the twi decoder ring or else it didn't really count....which translates into "give us your money".
Life is not that black and white...one moment you're "in fellowship", the next moment you're "out of fellowship"...nothing in between. Just say the magic words and all is well. No...we are all fragile, have many weaknesses and eventually will die. Our lives are made up of a multitude of moral decisions, mistakes and events that are quite out of our control...thoughts that are layered and complex...self realization and personal accomplishments come through hard work and painful experiences...and just when you think things are going well, some doctor gives you "the bad news" or somebody robs your house or your dog gets run over...life is tough and there's no free lotto ticket.
Where does God fit into all of this?...We struggle to maintain our faith, when things go our way, we thank God...when things go bad, we wonder if there IS a God...We are born with genetic predispositions, a skin covered skeleton stuffed with bodily organs that deteriorate with time, living in a world where evil runs rampant and very few people give a rat's foot whether you live or die. The challenge of life is to find value and meaning...and to hope that someday God will rescue us from our graves...I find it very difficult to believe in the twi mentality of " believers go to heaven and unbelievers are destined for eternal death"...if personal accountibility doesn't fit into the equation, then why are we even here? Life is hard...
...have a nice day.
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Bramble
Unworthy...broken fellowship...consequences of sin, unbelief...
In my childhood I was raised Roman Catholic, the old fashioned type, where Irish priests and nuns taught that only Catholics would go to heaven, and dying with a mortal sin, like missing Mass, would send you straight to hell. Scary stuff for me, I was the ulta pleaser type little girl, not a rebellious bone in there, and I always felt I was one bus accident away from hell.
Then TWI. Sheesh. At first the no hell doctrine seemed like great freedom. but then I came to understand that I was in control through my believing of all kinds of stuff, an absolute fantasy. How many thousands of things happened during my twenty some years of 'believing' that didn't go the right way, or popped up unexpectedly--but somehow I was responsible for these negative things, I should have know? Or something. How many times in later years did we go through all kinds of reproof crap because of our 'believing'?
I left TWI doctrine several years ago ( in 2001 I chose to do a Year and a day of pagan /Wiccan study), but it still lingers with its unworthy, broken fellowship refrains and impossible standards.
Not too long ago I was diagnosed with a chronic illness, one I've probably had a decade or more, one I've never heard of (I don't think my family doctor had heard of it either, haha.) I spent a week trying to figure how I got it before sanity arrived. Who knows? The medical establishment doesn't know, you can't take a certain vitamin and avoid it. Some people get it, some don't...like so many things in life.
So once again I have to remind myself that I no longer waste energy trying to figure out the whys of things I can't control, and try to hoist the old brain around to something positive and helpful.
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pond
I went to my first ROA just a few weeks after taking the class.
I was excited and happy to see some of the folks I had met in the class , I would ask "how are you?" and the reply was often "As HE is".
I spent a few days wondering who "he" was then is got the concept, that many believed they where christ in the flesh , really.
Have you looked at the life ,particulary the "ministry",of Jesus Christ?
it was only about 3years before he was murdered and most of it was like the worst horror story you could think of, every kind of betrayal, hardship, temptations , work, all kind of horrid experiences a person could face in life and then He died.
3 years of living hell really, ok ok through in He accomplished some healing that He was seldom credited with and taught lessons no one really wanted to hear, not to metion problems with His own family and those He employed.
really it reads like a horror story. "As He is " you say today I would say um no thanks. I do not think His life on earth was noble or full of honor .
it was miserable, once He declared His mission.
I think He did that so we do not have to be miserable anymore. But I often still am anyway.
life is hard, and I have had to many lessons . I wish my lessons only lasted three years in life.
and Jesus christ never sinned , I have paid a price for my sins and bad choices not like HIM at all.
I do not live "As He is" and He may have promised to send a comfort , to help me. that tells me life is still going to have trouble.
so we look to death( or the gathering) for the great HOPE of better days?
till then ex is right.
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TheEvan
Whoah, heavy reaction there, Garth. Got some issues, buddy?
I feel the overriding problem in DaWey was somewhat opposite. People were taught to think they were supermen, "controlling their thoughts" and bleeeeving for Big Things. And, as you know, one of our defining characteristics as a group was overwhelming arrogance.
A bit of humility would have helped. :blink:
I think they used dumb thinking to control people, just other dumb thinking.
_________
Funny, this issue came up in our congregation. One person strenuously objected to the idea that we are unworthy. He may have been thinking of this hymn, in fact, when he protested that He made us worthy. Nice thought, but it has no biblical support. Not once are we ever called worthy. Jesus is, though. and, to extend the thought, God doesn't just accept everybody. That is a great misconception. But all those who approach Him in faith are "made holy & acceptable before Him in love." What is universal and unequivocal is God's love. He loves everybody of all time so much he gave his son to die for them, even for those who wouldn't accept Christ's work for them.
Anyway, hope you're feeling better, bro.
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GarthP2000
Issues? ... Yeah, I got some issues, ... big ones. ....
... like with people who use the "We are unworthy" concept as a means of control, mental browbeating, guilt tripping, (and of course, who can leave out extracting more money, donchaknow
), and basically letting people know what worthless scum we humans supposedly are. I see it all the time, from TWI's infamous manipulation to more mainstream tactics used to keep people in the fold and unquestioning to whatever orthodox dogma they are taught. And that concept just lends itself to these things so well!
So yeah, ((sigh)) looks like you're right. .... Gad, I hope it isn't terminal. :unsure:
... You think it might be covered by Blue Cross?
No doubt it would have, in order to deal with the overreaching arrogance. But, like all extremes, there is always at least two ends to consider, and I am of the opinion that the "We are not worthy" browbeating variety is but a flip side of the arrogance you speak of.
Contrary to some fundamentalist doctrines, we human beings are not evil by nature. We aren't 'supermen' either. We're basically ... human.
Hope that makes you feel better, ... bro.
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CoolWaters
un·wor·thy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-wûrth)
adj. un·wor·thi·er, un·wor·thi·est
Insufficient in worth; undeserving: a bad plan unworthy of our consideration.
Lacking value or merit; worthless.
Not suiting or befitting: “The acquaintances she had already formed were unworthy of her” (Jane Austen).
Vile; despicable.
People are not unworthy. Sin is unworthy.
If the two cannot be separated in one's mind, then one will never be able to relate to another in the manner exemplified by Jesus.
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GarthP2000
Excellent point, Coolwaters. B)
A more proper focus, in my humble opinion. ;)
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templelady
Amen Garth
[[Templelady
frantically fans Garth 
--who has fainted at the mere thought that TL should agree with him about ANYTHING remotely spiritual ))
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excathedra
bramble are you ok ?
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TheEvan
Well, I guess since this is the Doctrinal gallery I'll refrain from arguing the points biblically.
You all are nice people and mean well. Except Garthie, of course.
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GarthP2000
Now now Evan, I mean well, really I do. ....
... even towards you. B)
Now nice? Well-l-l, mebbe that's another story.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i certainly do not feel my self worthy to wash jesus" feet never mind him washing mine
what that man did for us is to me mind boggling
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