We filed in the trash can a ton of stuff, we sold some things, gave away a ton of memorabilia, and kept a small select.
-----
Threw it all away....didn't want it, didn't need it!
-----
We threw it all away...stuff people apparently still want...even a set of PFAL videos....But our son, knowing the angst of our former cult invovement, and being quite amused by it, wore a way staff namebadge on his shirt....Yeah, he freaked us out!
-----
I threw out tapes and tapes and tapes, some old notes that had nothing more than the title of a teaching and some bible verses on them.
-----
Two months ago I came across GS and "saw the light"! Last month I held a BBQ with both Christian and Non-Christian friends. I broke out the champagne for everyone as I threw all TWI materials into the bon-fire I created. It was emotional for me but its gone and over with.
-----
I kept mine for about three years after I got out.
One day, after I was married, the Holy Spirit convicted me that what was in these books, tapes and magazines were ungodly. So out they went...I even tossed my companion bible because I didn't want the confusion...I still have a Youngs, Tyndale New Testament and Word study, but all the way stuff is in a trash dump. Fitting isn't it ?
-----
Lots of things got dumpsterized, after several moves things just sort of dissipated, every once in awhile I run across something.Stray notes in a box mostly-- No PFAL videos, somewhere I have the never available Living Victoriously Videos that I got as a gift that I keep around for I dont know what reason, maybe in case I have to torture an overstaying guest
Any old way magazines running from the late 60s to late 80s are a gold mine. The research papers in there and the historical information is valuable. I was just looking in an old magazine from 1985 or 1986 and was saw a GMIR article actually explained the thinking behind the Aramaic (or Palestinian Aramaic) being the original. A long article! I’ve heard that before but never thought that the actual information was just readily available. Almost all these magazines from the 70s to 80s have these research articles. The magazines have leadership profiles and other stuff starring your favorite Way characters, like: Geer, Lynn, Dubofsky, and so on. These things should be made in Adobe Acrobat format and made available to everybody. If not that, they could or should be sold for $100-$200 a Way Mag maybe more.
------------
ll sell mine to you for 200 bucks a piece. Hell what else you want? I got AC notebooks, original PFAL stuff. Got a tape from 1982 of VPW yelling at the Way Corps....Hey I think I'll start a new business!...I'm excited. Just e-mail me your CC and SS# and I'll send it all to you....you know I'm kidding don't you? Your not serious about the $200 per mag right?
-------------
Yeah, Way Magazines are cool,but I've got a collection of old T.V. GUIDES! Oh the truths that can be discerned from them! What a treasure-trove of wisdom! These must be worth thousands!
-------------
A gold mine is a piece of dirt that contains gold...After mining, the gold has value...TWI magazines, like anything else from TWI contains regurgitated stuff, fools gold at best and hurtful doctrines at worst...
-------------
More of the same, plus or minus...
The point: the comments are not all that different than what was on this thrread.
I have some rather strong opinions on reading this thread with the responses and the responses to the responses, etc. , but I will hold off on them while I consider them further...then decide if it would make any sense to respond here.
Except...
One person in particular who has posted here I know is very caring. NOT to imply others are not, no way, but I know this one is from a very short but caring message that I received several years ago, that was more important than the person will ever realize.
Maybe that is what we should consider...the caring part I mean...when we respond.
... One person in particular who has posted here I know is very caring. NOT to imply others are not, no way, but I know this one is from a very short but caring message that I received several years ago, that was more important than the person will ever realize.
Maybe that is what we should consider...the caring part I mean...when we respond.
I think that there are many who would be kind, loving and considerate; but in a crowd of rude inconsiderate people the first group stays silent.
Maybe that is what we should consider...the caring part I mean...when we respond.
Lifted Up ~~~ I agree. A poster was offered for sale on this site, because Watered Garden knew there might be folks here interested in it. That shows thoughtfulness, and consideration before offering it to the world wide community on e-bay.
Granted this is an EX way site (Mark), but there are some here who might like to have such an item. Because that poster did not denigrate twi, if was criticized and made fun of --- unlike the tapes offered by Catcup with her commentary about "this is how twi IS!". Remembering one's history is not always a bad thing.
Whitedove made an excellent point in his listing of other *way* items for sale.
The persons offering them all for sale were never castigated or made fun of.
I guess the majority of folks here totally missed the point that the person wanted to get rid of *said item*.
I can understand the hate, disgust, and re-occuring nightmares twi might hold for some. but while you harbor that hate, disgust, etc., remember that when someone is selling off a twi item --- they are looking to get rid of it.
And (if I judge your premises correctly), you should be in agreement,
rather than ridiculing the item (and seller).
Everyone here who has posted negative comments have totally missed the boat. :)
WG wants to get rid of the thing. And all you have to say is that it is a POS,
with no thought for the thought behind the action.
Perhaps it's time to think, before you post -- eh?? ;)
Lifted Up ~~~ I agree. A poster was offered for sale on this site, because Watered Garden knew there might be folks here interested in it. That shows thoughtfulness, and consideration before offering it to the world wide community on e-bay.
Granted this is an EX way site (Mark), but there are some here who might like to have such an item. Because that poster did not denigrate twi, if was criticized and made fun of --- unlike the tapes offered by Catcup with her commentary about "this is how twi IS!". Remembering one's history is not always a bad thing.
Whitedove made an excellent point in his listing of other *way* items for sale.
The persons offering them all for sale were never castigated or made fun of.
I guess the majority of folks here totally missed the point that the person wanted to get rid of *said item*.
I can understand the hate, disgust, and re-occuring nightmares twi might hold for some. but while you harbor that hate, disgust, etc., remember that when someone is selling off a twi item --- they are looking to get rid of it.
And (if I judge your premises correctly), you should be in agreement,
rather than ridiculing the item (and seller).
Everyone here who has posted negative comments have totally missed the boat. :)
WG wants to get rid of the thing. And all you have to say is that it is a POS,
with no thought for the thought behind the action.
Perhaps it's time to think, before you post -- eh?? ;)
David
David,
First, nobody was denigrating WG. Including me. If I denigrated WG, please quote me and show me where I did so. Please. Becuase maybe I'm just too blind to see what I said.
Secondly, at least in the beginning of the thread, nobody at all denigrated WG. I think she over-reacted. I still think she over-reacted.
Sorry, but I don't see it. So please cut and paste in the statement I made that denigrated WG. Please.
Because all I can see is that I mentioned that I thought she radically over-reacted to some (imho compared to the crap people throw at some folks) very, very mild criticism of things TWI. And since that point in time, I've been getting slammed. Now I understand WW slamming me. It's not the first time and won't be the last. But otherwise...I am seriously confused as to where I have sinned. So please show me David, because I sure don't see what I did wrong.
Or maybe I should just keep my comments down in the Doctrinal basement.
After this thread, and the unbelieveable hardness of people's hearts, I feel the very same way. I love you because of my (our) lord Jesus Christ, and I look fwd to spending Eterninty with you! You are absolutely wonderful, and don't let the bitter haters here talk you out of it, which, I am sure you won't!
Yes and no. I found the disparaging remarks about the poster she has for sale to be a *slam* against her.
As I said -- I think folks here missed the boat about the fact that she wants to be rid of it.
But (I'll quote you here), YMMV.
I find it hard to believe that the simple sale of a poster could generate so much heated debate.
But I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. There are a lot of calloused hearts here. There are a lot of festering wounds, just waiting to break open into open boils, and it is evident (to me at least), though it may not be to you.
So be it. You're right -- it's an open forum. Folks will say what is on their minds, and I will say you did an admirable job of finding those quotes you provided us with.
Personally -- I think she was *lambasted* for thinking of coming here first, with something she wanted to get rid of. But then again -- that is my opinion.
You think what you want to.
(and as a side note -- you usually have good comments, well thought out, incitefull, and full of reason.
No need to relegate yourself to the *basement*)
oh --- and a ps here ---
When I said ~~~
And (if I judge your premises correctly), you should be in agreement,
rather than ridiculing the item (and seller).
Everyone here who has posted negative comments have totally missed the boat.
I was speaking of no one in particular, and every one in general. :)
(As is usually happens here) my 10 will get your one that all those who go out in a huff, and say "I'm never coming back *again*! ((snif))" ... usually do come back, and in pretty short order.
I simply do not believe this...But of cousrse then, I must be a ph o ckin g idiot...
Have a nice day.
You don't believe it because a larger belief system won't even allow you to consider it. That doesn't make you an idiot.
But saying you must be an idiot could become a self-fulfilling observation. Was that a "positive confession?"
Before, you were only talking about people's experience in a positive light. Now you're talking about Wierwille's class.
Knowing all you do about Vic Wierwille, can you possibly believe PFAL was uncorrupted by his own craven ambitions? You really think the contents remained pure, objective, clear as spring water, free of and from his fondest vices? If so, you haven't given it that much thought. He thought a lot more about pu&&y than preaching, and it's clear which he took more seriously.
No? What do you think Jesus would say, Jonny? What would Jesus say to Vic Wierwille as the timid girl steps into the bus for the first time, and Vic is standing there in nothing but an open bathrobe?
Jesus who kicked over the moneychangers' tables. Jesus who warned those who might harm children. Jesus who stood between a woman and a mob bent on stoning her. What would he say to Vic, Jonny? As the young girl believer, maybe in the Corps, maybe a WOW, stepped aboard because she'd been "invited."
"Oh, Doctor, what a wonderful class. Nice bus, man. See ya."
I don't think so.
Of course he had "no friends when it came to the Word." The man used the Word like any sociopath might use it - he used the Word in order to use people. He had no friends because he had no conscience.
Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't really care.
Mark sorry if you thought I was yelling at you I wasn't, I thought you were having trouble seeing the small print. But you know what they say once the eyes go then the hearing is not far behind.
Mark I agree with some of your points here, but even if WG overreacted wouldn't it have been much nicer if there was not anything to overreact to? I think that is the point David and others are making. Others like Catcup have sold things on eBay and generally have received a good luck, hope you make a lot of money response. It was kind of WG to offer her item to us, if one was not interested why not just say nothing. If George was to offer some of his Japanese art on eBay I would not be interested but I would not post something like what makes you think we want crap like that? If I posted anything it would be Thanks for thinking of us I'm not interested but good luck with your sale.
I'm looking around my office here and I have a wonderful signed print of Barbara Butler's Silver and Gold have I none from Acts 3:6 I think it is absolutely stunning by far my favorite way art.
I have a signed print of Meg Kish's a box of crayons with 9 bright colored crayons in it the box reads Gods Gift Holy Spirit given to all that believe. At he box bottom it says non toxic. I love that picture for it's childlike simplicity. By it is a slate replica of one of those billboard sayings that were popular a few years ago, We Need To Talk - God a reminder to me to do that more. Below that is a cut glass and brass Tiffany Coca Cola lamp. On the other wall is a bronze three foot replica of the statue of liberty arm the torch holds a candle. It reminds me of my freedom as a American and in Christ. There is also a life size Plexiglas neon guitar the strings are neon also and are sound activated to run random patterns so that the strings each light up in colors as they are played. It rocks to Johnny Be Good, and though not a musician reminds me of my love for music. In the case behind me is a few thousand dollars worth of artifacts from digs in the Bible Lands Wine Amphora's, oil lamps, Roman glass tear bottles, bottles,jars,flasks,coins and so on from 1000 BC to 100 AD. Which I hope to soon put into a class or lecture to give people a hands on look at archeology as it relates to scripture.
Next to it is a piece of marble with the verse Jeremiah 32:27 etched on it. beside it is a nice plaster painted way logo from the bi-centennial God's Word lighting the way for the USA. On the desk is a 8 inch tall pottery hand painted coffee cup that lights as a lamp. Also on the wall a beautiful hand etched mirror that reads Christ in you The Hope of Glory a gift from a class I did.
Each of these things are very special to me for various reasons. If the poster that WG was offering would be special to some one what's the problem? Why can't we just let her sell it and be kind? Does it really need a running commentary? I know you take you fair share or more of crap here. I think you seem to be a pretty good guy all in all if it just weren't for that Catholic thing ( I'm kidding). Even though we seldom agree you seem to be well read and thoughtful in you posts. Somewhere in storage I think I still have one of the posters that WG was selling it's not a bad print all in all although I don't use mine One mans trash is another's treasure. I don't know-it just seems like needless flack for an eBay sale.
What a bunch of hubbub about nothing, I thought the initial comments were pretty tame myself.
Things like this are going to happen anytime you bring almost anything to an open market-some people like what you sell , some people are indifferent and some people may have a strong reaction against it. Its the nature of selling things. So What? Nothing was personal
Many people here (and for understandable reasons,) view PFAL as if it were crack cocaine ---something that they were addicted to for years, that didn't do much for them that left them with little. I would expect a reaction from them.
It would be a much stranger thread and much more unrealistic if nobody responded the way that they did.
David, your comment Personally -- I think she was *lambasted* for thinking of coming here first, with something she wanted to get rid of. But then again -- that is my opinion.
I think this is the bottom line: you must have interpreted the comments as slamming her. I interpreted them as using this object as another excuse to slam TWI, Wierwille, and PFAL and nothing personally directed at her. But as the saying goes, opinions are like...we all have them and they all ...
White Dove, your comment Mark I agree with some of your points here, but even if WG overreacted wouldn't it have been much nicer if there was not anything to overreact to? I think that is the point David and others are making.
In an ideal world, you'd be absolutely right. The point of me posting all of those extracts that I did earlier was to illustrate that "why sell it, why not burn it?" was a frequent comment. Anti-TWI comments made in conjunction with other threads were commonplace. The comments (especially at the beginning of the thread) were consistent with those made in other threads...going back as far as 2002 (the extent of the records available online).
In an ideal world, we would all treat each other with perfect Christian charity and none of us would take advantage of that charity for our own gain. (However, it should be pointed out -- before somebody else has a chance to do so -- that all too often in TWI that charity was used by those in power to the detriment of the person displaying the charity)
But we don't live in an ideal world and there are a lot of people who feel a need to vent. If not about TWI, about something else. I am certain that we both can relate to that, can't we, White Dove?
Mark sorry if you thought I was yelling at you I wasn't, I thought you were having trouble seeing the small print. But you know what they say once the eyes go then the hearing is not far behind.
But we don't live in an ideal world and there are a lot of people who feel a need to vent. If not about TWI, about something else. I am certain that we both can relate to that, can't we, White Dove?
Maybe the difference for me is it was an offer not a topic. She was just making it known that it was there and for sale not inviting a running discussion. If she had said I am selling this poster what do you think about it then I would say venting was requested. But she did not. Anyway I hope your sale goes well WG and it finds a new home.
(As is usually happens here) my 10 will get your one that all those who go out in a huff, and say "I'm never coming back *again*! ((snif))" ... usually do come back, and in pretty short order.
Place your bets folks. ... I did.
Yer ever lovin' bookie
One often used way to ridicule someone is to describe his/her actions in a way that is easier to mock.
Oh, I know what Garth is talking about. Having been around Waydale/ GS for several years...as he has...I have seen a number of people announce they were leaving, and some of those have came back anyway. In fact, I was tempted myself a couple times in the past to respond specifically to someone's announcement. but I resisted that temptation. First of all, I realized they weren't going away "in a huff", which is really a way to describe them as a snotty "I'll show you" person. It's like they were saying, I'll show you; you'll be sorry when I'm gone", as if we knew all about what was in their minds when we describe them that way.
I think it was obvious that WG was hurt and wasn't even close to that kind of attitude. If someone thinks she overreacted, why not try to understand why. I don't think that is the case anyway. I am not only thinking the best of someone (heavens, do that??) , but am accepting the word of the only person (as far as I know) who has posted on this thread who knws WG.
The idea that we are always free to vent our frustrations in whatever words we want, regardless of whether or not we hurt someone...because, after all, those frustrations are justified...is wrong IMO.
Working for the government, one of the things we get hit with is having to learn about sexual harrasment. The main theme is that sexual harrasment is not defined as what is intended, but how it is received. I frankly once didn't see that reasoning until it dawned on me that it involved the principle of considering what the other person thinks or feels, instead of throwing your language or pictures or whatever around with only thoughts for what you think is right. If I have any beef with the emphasis on that subject now, it is that other forms of harassment have been tolerated without regard to what "the other person feels." But since sexual harassment can be so very personal, I can also see where the emphasis comes from.
If I started to ridicule those who claim to have been hurt by sexual abuse in TWI, instead of making some of the current efforts I am making to learn more about how people may have been deeply hurt, I imagine I qould quickly hear from the top. Such as if I suggested that there was "overreacting" involved. Should we show less care for the feelings of people who might be hurt by our "justified" reactions?
No, we don't live in an idea world, so I suppose we can justify anything we say by that.
why is it that defending the attack on the way is more importat than WG's feelings?
Well DH, I was one who wrote a snotty comment. It may have been insesitive looking back on it and the way she took it. In no way did I mean her any disrespect. I have respected the hell out of WG and her posts for a long time.
After this thread, and the unbelieveable hardness of people's hearts, I feel the very same way. I love you because of my (our) lord Jesus Christ, and I look fwd to spending Eterninty with you! You are absolutely wonderful, and don't let the bitter haters here talk you out of it, which, I am sure you won't!
why is it that defending the attack on the way is more importat than WG's feelings?
What about the feelings of those who are still wounded? Should they not be allowed their catharsis?
After all, the same Psalmist that wrote,
Come, let us sing joyfully to the LORD; cry out to the rock of our salvation.
Let us greet him with a song of praise, joyfully sing out our psalms.
For the LORD is the great God, the great king over all gods,
Whose hand holds the depths of the earth; who owns the tops of the mountains.
The sea and dry land belong to God, who made them, formed them by hand.
Enter, let us bow down in worship; let us kneel before the LORD who made us.
For this is our God, whose people we are, God's well-tended flock.
wrote this:
Why do you glory in evil, you scandalous liar?
All day long you plot destruction;
Your tongue is like a sharpened razor, you skillful deceiver.
You love evil rather than good, lies rather than honest speech. Selah
You love any word that destroys, you deceitful tongue.
Now God will strike you down, leave you crushed forever,
Pluck you from your tent, uproot you from the land of the living. Selah
and this:
If an enemy had reviled me, that I could bear;
If my foe had viewed me with contempt, from that I could hide.
But it was you, my other self, my comrade and friend,
You, whose company I enjoyed,
at whose side I walked in procession in the house of God.
Let death take them by surprise;
let them go down alive to Sheol, for evil is in their homes and hearts.
It may just be me, but I figure if it's OK for the Psalmist to write about supposed friends and allies that did him wrong, it should be OK for folks here to pop out about how TWI did them wrong.
Like others, if my defense of their right to express their feelings hurt Watered Garden's feelings, I do apologize for any collateral damage that my defense may have caused her.
if the way wronged someone ( a given here) should it be at an individual poster's expense that revenge and repulsion are expressed....or could we express that without taking someone's hide a long with it.
Mark you sound like a kid that says "Im sorry BUT...." which we all know means you arent really sorry...
As the links point out - at no other time when a "way" ebay item was brought up did it result in these insults and cynical comments.
I think allowing for hurt on everyones part is fine...but if we treat eachother withthe same venom and condecension as we we treated with in TWI...we are no better than those we criticize...No?
if the way wronged someone ( a given here) should it be at an individual poster's expense that revenge and repulsion are expressed....or could we express that without taking someone's hide a long with it.
Mark you sound like a kid that says "Im sorry BUT...." which we all know means you arent really sorry...
I don't know who the h3ll you think you are, but you have no right to ascribe motivation to anything I say.
As the links point out - at no other time when a "way" ebay item was brought up did it result in these insults and cynical comments.
Excuse me?
First of all, nobody here has insulted WG. (Unless you include saying that she overreacted is an insult) If you can please paste in a comment by a poster who did insult her, I'd appreciate it. 'Cause I sure didn't see one.
Second,
If Im sure you could get alittle money for the books on EBay or somewhere but wouldn't a burning ceremony be much more satisfying?, If people paid for the Velveeta Virgin sandwich (or whatever that processed insanity was...lol) there no doubt would be somebodies willing to pay for the cassette baggage. , and Can't we just donate directly to the college fund without defiling our houses with that stuff??? aren't cynical, I don't know what is. Any of those comments far exceeds in venom what has been posted on this thread.
I think allowing for hurt on everyones part is fine...but if we treat eachother withthe same venom and condecension as we we treated with in TWI...we are no better than those we criticize...No?
Again, please copy and paste these venomous criticisms of Watered Garden in a post and put it up here, because I sure didn't see any.
Just becasue your perception does not match hers and the hurt she feels , it does not invalidate her perception.
You seem very upset, becasue you cant seem to view anything but through your own perception.
I dont know what any motives were are or will be, however, I can read what the response was and how it hurts.
unlike some posters here, I dont like the constant cutting and pasting, if it validates your point of view thats fine. I still see that someone was hurt and most are defending that it was okay becasue she shouldn't be hurt according to your anothers various so wise judgements - you have invalidated and called this feeling a nonfeeling for this person.
Working for the government, one of the things we get hit with is having to learn about sexual harrasment. The main theme is that sexual harrasment is not defined as what is intended, but how it is received. I frankly once didn't see that reasoning until it dawned on me that it involved the principle of considering what the other person thinks or feels, instead of throwing your language or pictures or whatever around with only thoughts for what you think is right. If I have any beef with the emphasis on that subject now, it is that other forms of harassment have been tolerated without regard to what "the other person feels." But since sexual harassment can be so very personal, I can also see where the emphasis comes from.
I was be in the government for over 20 years (military) and I saw the full range of sexual harassment policies. I saw people walking absolutely on egg shells for a long time, but the last few years in, I saw a distinct change: more accusations were being turned away as unsubstantiated and the potential victims were being told that not everything that they might perceive as sexual harassment was...and that their accusations would not automatically be adjudicated in their favor, as had been done for several years (to the destruction of not a few careers).
You see, when I came in, it was really and truly before the era of the revelation of the existence of 'sexual harassment.' Sexual harassment was not acknowledged, unless there was distinctly a provable case of a promotion being denied because some sweet young thing not putting out for her middle-aged fat, pervert of a boss. Then the awareness training started up and the pendulum started swinging. As a manager, I was advised that I should never be in an office with a female unless there was a third party witness or if the door was open and somebody listening on the other side (to protect myself from an accusation). After a couple of years of that, it started to swing back toward the middle. I honestly don't know where the pendulum is now, as I've been out for too many years to say with certainty anymore.
The point is, yes, you are right, people should be sensitive to what others' feelings when they send a message. But the receiver bears a little responsibility too. The receiver should
a) not take a criticism of a thing as criticism of the person,
b) consider the source and the source's background a bit , and
c) ensure that what the receiver heard/read was what the sender said/wrote (and if it's not perfectly clear, then provide feedback to get clarification).
To say that the sender has all the responsibility is just plain wrong. The receiver also has a responsibility if we are to communicate.
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http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...1&st=&p=entry
We filed in the trash can a ton of stuff, we sold some things, gave away a ton of memorabilia, and kept a small select.
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Threw it all away....didn't want it, didn't need it!
-----
We threw it all away...stuff people apparently still want...even a set of PFAL videos....But our son, knowing the angst of our former cult invovement, and being quite amused by it, wore a way staff namebadge on his shirt....Yeah, he freaked us out!
-----
I threw out tapes and tapes and tapes, some old notes that had nothing more than the title of a teaching and some bible verses on them.
-----
Two months ago I came across GS and "saw the light"! Last month I held a BBQ with both Christian and Non-Christian friends. I broke out the champagne for everyone as I threw all TWI materials into the bon-fire I created. It was emotional for me but its gone and over with.
-----
I kept mine for about three years after I got out.
One day, after I was married, the Holy Spirit convicted me that what was in these books, tapes and magazines were ungodly. So out they went...I even tossed my companion bible because I didn't want the confusion...I still have a Youngs, Tyndale New Testament and Word study, but all the way stuff is in a trash dump. Fitting isn't it ?
-----
Lots of things got dumpsterized, after several moves things just sort of dissipated, every once in awhile I run across something.Stray notes in a box mostly-- No PFAL videos, somewhere I have the never available Living Victoriously Videos that I got as a gift that I keep around for I dont know what reason, maybe in case I have to torture an overstaying guest
From: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=2397&hl=
Any old way magazines running from the late 60s to late 80s are a gold mine. The research papers in there and the historical information is valuable. I was just looking in an old magazine from 1985 or 1986 and was saw a GMIR article actually explained the thinking behind the Aramaic (or Palestinian Aramaic) being the original. A long article! I’ve heard that before but never thought that the actual information was just readily available. Almost all these magazines from the 70s to 80s have these research articles. The magazines have leadership profiles and other stuff starring your favorite Way characters, like: Geer, Lynn, Dubofsky, and so on. These things should be made in Adobe Acrobat format and made available to everybody. If not that, they could or should be sold for $100-$200 a Way Mag maybe more.
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ll sell mine to you for 200 bucks a piece. Hell what else you want? I got AC notebooks, original PFAL stuff. Got a tape from 1982 of VPW yelling at the Way Corps....Hey I think I'll start a new business!...I'm excited. Just e-mail me your CC and SS# and I'll send it all to you....you know I'm kidding don't you? Your not serious about the $200 per mag right?
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Yeah, Way Magazines are cool,but I've got a collection of old T.V. GUIDES! Oh the truths that can be discerned from them! What a treasure-trove of wisdom! These must be worth thousands!
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A gold mine is a piece of dirt that contains gold...After mining, the gold has value...TWI magazines, like anything else from TWI contains regurgitated stuff, fools gold at best and hurtful doctrines at worst...
-------------
More of the same, plus or minus...
The point: the comments are not all that different than what was on this thrread.
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WhiteDove
SOME OTHER EBAY SALES -To compare with.......
Mark I enlarged the point for you. :unsure: I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions of the data.
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markomalley
((clearing the ringing from his ears))
Now, now, now...no need to shout...
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Lifted Up
I have some rather strong opinions on reading this thread with the responses and the responses to the responses, etc. , but I will hold off on them while I consider them further...then decide if it would make any sense to respond here.
Except...
One person in particular who has posted here I know is very caring. NOT to imply others are not, no way, but I know this one is from a very short but caring message that I received several years ago, that was more important than the person will ever realize.
Maybe that is what we should consider...the caring part I mean...when we respond.
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Galen
I think that there are many who would be kind, loving and considerate; but in a crowd of rude inconsiderate people the first group stays silent.
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dmiller
Lifted Up ~~~ I agree. A poster was offered for sale on this site, because Watered Garden knew there might be folks here interested in it. That shows thoughtfulness, and consideration before offering it to the world wide community on e-bay.
Granted this is an EX way site (Mark), but there are some here who might like to have such an item. Because that poster did not denigrate twi, if was criticized and made fun of --- unlike the tapes offered by Catcup with her commentary about "this is how twi IS!". Remembering one's history is not always a bad thing.
Whitedove made an excellent point in his listing of other *way* items for sale.
The persons offering them all for sale were never castigated or made fun of.
I guess the majority of folks here totally missed the point that the person wanted to get rid of *said item*.
I can understand the hate, disgust, and re-occuring nightmares twi might hold for some. but while you harbor that hate, disgust, etc., remember that when someone is selling off a twi item --- they are looking to get rid of it.
And (if I judge your premises correctly), you should be in agreement,
rather than ridiculing the item (and seller).
Everyone here who has posted negative comments have totally missed the boat. :)
WG wants to get rid of the thing. And all you have to say is that it is a POS,
with no thought for the thought behind the action.
Perhaps it's time to think, before you post -- eh?? ;)
David
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markomalley
David,
First, nobody was denigrating WG. Including me. If I denigrated WG, please quote me and show me where I did so. Please. Becuase maybe I'm just too blind to see what I said.
Secondly, at least in the beginning of the thread, nobody at all denigrated WG. I think she over-reacted. I still think she over-reacted.
Sorry, but I don't see it. So please cut and paste in the statement I made that denigrated WG. Please.
Because all I can see is that I mentioned that I thought she radically over-reacted to some (imho compared to the crap people throw at some folks) very, very mild criticism of things TWI. And since that point in time, I've been getting slammed. Now I understand WW slamming me. It's not the first time and won't be the last. But otherwise...I am seriously confused as to where I have sinned. So please show me David, because I sure don't see what I did wrong.
Or maybe I should just keep my comments down in the Doctrinal basement.
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J0nny Ling0
Watered Garden
After this thread, and the unbelieveable hardness of people's hearts, I feel the very same way. I love you because of my (our) lord Jesus Christ, and I look fwd to spending Eterninty with you! You are absolutely wonderful, and don't let the bitter haters here talk you out of it, which, I am sure you won't!
Bye bye you all!
Jonny Lingo...
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dmiller
As I said -- I think folks here missed the boat about the fact that she wants to be rid of it.
But (I'll quote you here), YMMV.
I find it hard to believe that the simple sale of a poster could generate so much heated debate.
But I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. There are a lot of calloused hearts here. There are a lot of festering wounds, just waiting to break open into open boils, and it is evident (to me at least), though it may not be to you.
So be it. You're right -- it's an open forum. Folks will say what is on their minds, and I will say you did an admirable job of finding those quotes you provided us with.
Personally -- I think she was *lambasted* for thinking of coming here first, with something she wanted to get rid of. But then again -- that is my opinion.
You think what you want to.
(and as a side note -- you usually have good comments, well thought out, incitefull, and full of reason.
No need to relegate yourself to the *basement*)
oh --- and a ps here ---
When I said ~~~
I was speaking of no one in particular, and every one in general. :)
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GarthP2000
(As is usually happens here) my 10 will get your one that all those who go out in a huff, and say "I'm never coming back *again*! ((snif))" ... usually do come back, and in pretty short order.
Place your bets folks. ... I did.
Yer ever lovin' bookie
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satori001
You don't believe it because a larger belief system won't even allow you to consider it. That doesn't make you an idiot.
But saying you must be an idiot could become a self-fulfilling observation. Was that a "positive confession?"
Before, you were only talking about people's experience in a positive light. Now you're talking about Wierwille's class.
Knowing all you do about Vic Wierwille, can you possibly believe PFAL was uncorrupted by his own craven ambitions? You really think the contents remained pure, objective, clear as spring water, free of and from his fondest vices? If so, you haven't given it that much thought. He thought a lot more about pu&&y than preaching, and it's clear which he took more seriously.
No? What do you think Jesus would say, Jonny? What would Jesus say to Vic Wierwille as the timid girl steps into the bus for the first time, and Vic is standing there in nothing but an open bathrobe?
Jesus who kicked over the moneychangers' tables. Jesus who warned those who might harm children. Jesus who stood between a woman and a mob bent on stoning her. What would he say to Vic, Jonny? As the young girl believer, maybe in the Corps, maybe a WOW, stepped aboard because she'd been "invited."
"Oh, Doctor, what a wonderful class. Nice bus, man. See ya."
I don't think so.
Of course he had "no friends when it came to the Word." The man used the Word like any sociopath might use it - he used the Word in order to use people. He had no friends because he had no conscience.
Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't really care.
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WhiteDove
Mark sorry if you thought I was yelling at you I wasn't, I thought you were having trouble seeing the small print. But you know what they say once the eyes go then the hearing is not far behind.
Mark I agree with some of your points here, but even if WG overreacted wouldn't it have been much nicer if there was not anything to overreact to? I think that is the point David and others are making. Others like Catcup have sold things on eBay and generally have received a good luck, hope you make a lot of money response. It was kind of WG to offer her item to us, if one was not interested why not just say nothing. If George was to offer some of his Japanese art on eBay I would not be interested but I would not post something like what makes you think we want crap like that? If I posted anything it would be Thanks for thinking of us I'm not interested but good luck with your sale.
I'm looking around my office here and I have a wonderful signed print of Barbara Butler's Silver and Gold have I none from Acts 3:6 I think it is absolutely stunning by far my favorite way art.
I have a signed print of Meg Kish's a box of crayons with 9 bright colored crayons in it the box reads Gods Gift Holy Spirit given to all that believe. At he box bottom it says non toxic. I love that picture for it's childlike simplicity. By it is a slate replica of one of those billboard sayings that were popular a few years ago, We Need To Talk - God a reminder to me to do that more. Below that is a cut glass and brass Tiffany Coca Cola lamp. On the other wall is a bronze three foot replica of the statue of liberty arm the torch holds a candle. It reminds me of my freedom as a American and in Christ. There is also a life size Plexiglas neon guitar the strings are neon also and are sound activated to run random patterns so that the strings each light up in colors as they are played. It rocks to Johnny Be Good, and though not a musician reminds me of my love for music. In the case behind me is a few thousand dollars worth of artifacts from digs in the Bible Lands Wine Amphora's, oil lamps, Roman glass tear bottles, bottles,jars,flasks,coins and so on from 1000 BC to 100 AD. Which I hope to soon put into a class or lecture to give people a hands on look at archeology as it relates to scripture.
Next to it is a piece of marble with the verse Jeremiah 32:27 etched on it. beside it is a nice plaster painted way logo from the bi-centennial God's Word lighting the way for the USA. On the desk is a 8 inch tall pottery hand painted coffee cup that lights as a lamp. Also on the wall a beautiful hand etched mirror that reads Christ in you The Hope of Glory a gift from a class I did.
Each of these things are very special to me for various reasons. If the poster that WG was offering would be special to some one what's the problem? Why can't we just let her sell it and be kind? Does it really need a running commentary? I know you take you fair share or more of crap here. I think you seem to be a pretty good guy all in all if it just weren't for that Catholic thing ( I'm kidding). Even though we seldom agree you seem to be well read and thoughtful in you posts. Somewhere in storage I think I still have one of the posters that WG was selling it's not a bad print all in all although I don't use mine One mans trash is another's treasure. I don't know-it just seems like needless flack for an eBay sale.
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mstar1
What a bunch of hubbub about nothing, I thought the initial comments were pretty tame myself.
Things like this are going to happen anytime you bring almost anything to an open market-some people like what you sell , some people are indifferent and some people may have a strong reaction against it. Its the nature of selling things. So What? Nothing was personal
Many people here (and for understandable reasons,) view PFAL as if it were crack cocaine ---something that they were addicted to for years, that didn't do much for them that left them with little. I would expect a reaction from them.
It would be a much stranger thread and much more unrealistic if nobody responded the way that they did.
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markomalley
David/ White Dove:
Thank you both so much for your kind responses.
David, your comment Personally -- I think she was *lambasted* for thinking of coming here first, with something she wanted to get rid of. But then again -- that is my opinion.
I think this is the bottom line: you must have interpreted the comments as slamming her. I interpreted them as using this object as another excuse to slam TWI, Wierwille, and PFAL and nothing personally directed at her. But as the saying goes, opinions are like...we all have them and they all ...
White Dove, your comment Mark I agree with some of your points here, but even if WG overreacted wouldn't it have been much nicer if there was not anything to overreact to? I think that is the point David and others are making.
In an ideal world, you'd be absolutely right. The point of me posting all of those extracts that I did earlier was to illustrate that "why sell it, why not burn it?" was a frequent comment. Anti-TWI comments made in conjunction with other threads were commonplace. The comments (especially at the beginning of the thread) were consistent with those made in other threads...going back as far as 2002 (the extent of the records available online).
In an ideal world, we would all treat each other with perfect Christian charity and none of us would take advantage of that charity for our own gain. (However, it should be pointed out -- before somebody else has a chance to do so -- that all too often in TWI that charity was used by those in power to the detriment of the person displaying the charity)
But we don't live in an ideal world and there are a lot of people who feel a need to vent. If not about TWI, about something else. I am certain that we both can relate to that, can't we, White Dove?
Mark sorry if you thought I was yelling at you I wasn't, I thought you were having trouble seeing the small print. But you know what they say once the eyes go then the hearing is not far behind.
Sure thing, White Dove...sure thing...
]
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WhiteDove
Maybe the difference for me is it was an offer not a topic. She was just making it known that it was there and for sale not inviting a running discussion. If she had said I am selling this poster what do you think about it then I would say venting was requested. But she did not. Anyway I hope your sale goes well WG and it finds a new home.
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Lifted Up
One often used way to ridicule someone is to describe his/her actions in a way that is easier to mock.
Oh, I know what Garth is talking about. Having been around Waydale/ GS for several years...as he has...I have seen a number of people announce they were leaving, and some of those have came back anyway. In fact, I was tempted myself a couple times in the past to respond specifically to someone's announcement. but I resisted that temptation. First of all, I realized they weren't going away "in a huff", which is really a way to describe them as a snotty "I'll show you" person. It's like they were saying, I'll show you; you'll be sorry when I'm gone", as if we knew all about what was in their minds when we describe them that way.
I think it was obvious that WG was hurt and wasn't even close to that kind of attitude. If someone thinks she overreacted, why not try to understand why. I don't think that is the case anyway. I am not only thinking the best of someone (heavens, do that??) , but am accepting the word of the only person (as far as I know) who has posted on this thread who knws WG.
The idea that we are always free to vent our frustrations in whatever words we want, regardless of whether or not we hurt someone...because, after all, those frustrations are justified...is wrong IMO.
Working for the government, one of the things we get hit with is having to learn about sexual harrasment. The main theme is that sexual harrasment is not defined as what is intended, but how it is received. I frankly once didn't see that reasoning until it dawned on me that it involved the principle of considering what the other person thinks or feels, instead of throwing your language or pictures or whatever around with only thoughts for what you think is right. If I have any beef with the emphasis on that subject now, it is that other forms of harassment have been tolerated without regard to what "the other person feels." But since sexual harassment can be so very personal, I can also see where the emphasis comes from.
If I started to ridicule those who claim to have been hurt by sexual abuse in TWI, instead of making some of the current efforts I am making to learn more about how people may have been deeply hurt, I imagine I qould quickly hear from the top. Such as if I suggested that there was "overreacting" involved. Should we show less care for the feelings of people who might be hurt by our "justified" reactions?
No, we don't live in an idea world, so I suppose we can justify anything we say by that.
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DaddyHoundog
why is it that defending the attack on the way is more importat than WG's feelings?
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justloafing
Well DH, I was one who wrote a snotty comment. It may have been insesitive looking back on it and the way she took it. In no way did I mean her any disrespect. I have respected the hell out of WG and her posts for a long time.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
jonny lingo
don't go away yet
remember i have lobster to send you this summer!
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markomalley
What about the feelings of those who are still wounded? Should they not be allowed their catharsis?
After all, the same Psalmist that wrote,
wrote this:
and this:
It may just be me, but I figure if it's OK for the Psalmist to write about supposed friends and allies that did him wrong, it should be OK for folks here to pop out about how TWI did them wrong.
Like others, if my defense of their right to express their feelings hurt Watered Garden's feelings, I do apologize for any collateral damage that my defense may have caused her.
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DaddyHoundog
if the way wronged someone ( a given here) should it be at an individual poster's expense that revenge and repulsion are expressed....or could we express that without taking someone's hide a long with it.
Mark you sound like a kid that says "Im sorry BUT...." which we all know means you arent really sorry...
As the links point out - at no other time when a "way" ebay item was brought up did it result in these insults and cynical comments.
I think allowing for hurt on everyones part is fine...but if we treat eachother withthe same venom and condecension as we we treated with in TWI...we are no better than those we criticize...No?
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markomalley
I don't know who the h3ll you think you are, but you have no right to ascribe motivation to anything I say.
Excuse me?First of all, nobody here has insulted WG. (Unless you include saying that she overreacted is an insult) If you can please paste in a comment by a poster who did insult her, I'd appreciate it. 'Cause I sure didn't see one.
Second,
If Im sure you could get alittle money for the books on EBay or somewhere but wouldn't a burning ceremony be much more satisfying?, If people paid for the Velveeta Virgin sandwich (or whatever that processed insanity was...lol) there no doubt would be somebodies willing to pay for the cassette baggage. , and Can't we just donate directly to the college fund without defiling our houses with that stuff??? aren't cynical, I don't know what is. Any of those comments far exceeds in venom what has been posted on this thread.
Again, please copy and paste these venomous criticisms of Watered Garden in a post and put it up here, because I sure didn't see any.
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DaddyHoundog
Just becasue your perception does not match hers and the hurt she feels , it does not invalidate her perception.
You seem very upset, becasue you cant seem to view anything but through your own perception.
I dont know what any motives were are or will be, however, I can read what the response was and how it hurts.
unlike some posters here, I dont like the constant cutting and pasting, if it validates your point of view thats fine. I still see that someone was hurt and most are defending that it was okay becasue she shouldn't be hurt according to your anothers various so wise judgements - you have invalidated and called this feeling a nonfeeling for this person.
Reiks of the way to me.
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markomalley
I was be in the government for over 20 years (military) and I saw the full range of sexual harassment policies. I saw people walking absolutely on egg shells for a long time, but the last few years in, I saw a distinct change: more accusations were being turned away as unsubstantiated and the potential victims were being told that not everything that they might perceive as sexual harassment was...and that their accusations would not automatically be adjudicated in their favor, as had been done for several years (to the destruction of not a few careers).
You see, when I came in, it was really and truly before the era of the revelation of the existence of 'sexual harassment.' Sexual harassment was not acknowledged, unless there was distinctly a provable case of a promotion being denied because some sweet young thing not putting out for her middle-aged fat, pervert of a boss. Then the awareness training started up and the pendulum started swinging. As a manager, I was advised that I should never be in an office with a female unless there was a third party witness or if the door was open and somebody listening on the other side (to protect myself from an accusation). After a couple of years of that, it started to swing back toward the middle. I honestly don't know where the pendulum is now, as I've been out for too many years to say with certainty anymore.
The point is, yes, you are right, people should be sensitive to what others' feelings when they send a message. But the receiver bears a little responsibility too. The receiver should
a) not take a criticism of a thing as criticism of the person,
b) consider the source and the source's background a bit , and
c) ensure that what the receiver heard/read was what the sender said/wrote (and if it's not perfectly clear, then provide feedback to get clarification).
To say that the sender has all the responsibility is just plain wrong. The receiver also has a responsibility if we are to communicate.
Gee, I was just thinking the same thing myself.
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