Cognitive dissonance (interesting, Ex - - I studied this in an organizational behavior class in school):
This theory was first explored in detail by social psychologist Leon Festinger, who described it this way (from: Cognitive Dissonance):
Dissonance and consonance are relations among cognitions that is, among opinions, beliefs, knowledge of the environment, and knowledge of one's own actions and feelings. Two opinions, or beliefs, or items of knowledge are dissonant with each other if they do not fit together; that is, if they are inconsistent, or if, considering only the particular two items, one does not follow from the other (Festinger 1956: 25).
He argued that there are three ways to deal with cognitive dissonance. He did not consider these mutually exclusive.
1.
One may try to change one or more of the beliefs, opinions, or behaviors involved in the dissonance;
2.
One may try to acquire new information or beliefs that will increase the existing consonance and thus cause the total dissonance to be reduced; or,
3.
One may try to forget or reduce the importance of those cognitions that are in a dissonant relationship (Festinger 1956: 25-26).
Interesting part about cults:
Cognitive dissonance has been called "the mind controller's best friend" (Levine 2003: 202). Yet, a cursory examination of cognitive dissonance reveals that it is not the dissonance, but how people deal with it, that would be of interest to someone trying to control others when the evidence seems against them.
For example, Marian Keech was the leader of a UFO cult in the 1950s. She claimed to get messages from extraterrestrials, known as The Guardians, through automatic writing. Like the Heaven's Gate folks forty years later, Keech and her followers, known as The Seekers or The Brotherhood of the Seven Rays, were waiting to be picked up by flying saucers. In Keech's prophecy, her group of eleven was to be saved just before the earth was to be destroyed by a massive flood on December 21, 1954. When it became evident that there would be no flood and the Guardians weren't stopping by to pick them up, Keech became elated. She said she'd just received a telepathic message from the Guardians saying that her group of believers had spread so much light with their unflagging faith that God had spared the world from the cataclysm (Levine 2003: 206).
More important, the Seekers didn't abandon her. Most became more devoted after the failed prophecy. (Only two left the cult when the world didn't end.) "Most disciples not only stayed but, having made that decision, were now even more convinced than before that Keech had been right all along....Being wrong turned them into true believers (ibid.)." Some people will go to bizarre lengths to avoid inconsistency between their cherished beliefs and the facts. But why do people interpret the same evidence in contrary ways?
The Seekers would not have waited for the flying saucer if they thought it might not come. So, when it didn't come, one would think that a competent thinker would have seen this as falsifying Keech's claim that it would come. However, the incompetent thinkers were rendered incompetent by their devotion to Keech. Their belief that a flying saucer would pick them up was based on faith, not evidence. Likewise, their belief that the failure of the prophesy shouldn't count against their belief was another act of faith. With this kind of irrational thinking, it may seem pointless to produce evidence to try to persuade people of the error of their ways. Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behavior by one's prophet can be rationalized. There are many examples of people so devoted to another that they will rationalize or ignore extreme mental and physical abuse by their cult leader (or spouse or boyfriend). If the basis for a person's belief is irrational faith grounded in devotion to a powerful personality, then the only option that person has when confronted with evidence that should undermine her faith would seem to be to continue to be irrational, unless her faith was not that strong to begin with. The interesting question, then, is not about cognitive dissonance but about faith. What was it about Keech that led some people to have faith in her and what was it about those people that made them vulnerable to Keech? And what was different about the two who left the cult?
"Research shows that three characteristics are related to persuasiveness: perceived authority, honesty, and likeability" (ibid. 31). Furthermore, if a person is physically attractive, we tend to like that person and the more we like a person the more we tend to trust him or her (ibid. 57). Research also show that "people are perceived as more credible when they make eye contact and speak with confidence, no matter what they have to say" (ibid. 33).
According to Robert Levine, "studies have uncovered surprisingly little commonality in the type of personality that joins cults: there's no single cult-prone personality type" (ibid. 144). This fact surprised Levine. When he began his investigation of cults he "shared the common stereotype that most joiners were psychological misfits or religious fanatics" (ibid. 81). What he found instead was that many cult members are attracted to what appears to be a loving community. "One of the ironies of cults is that the craziest groups are often composed of the most caring people (ibid. 83)." Levine says of cult leader Jim Jones that he was "a supersalesman who exerted most every rule of persuasion" (ibid. 213). He had authority, perceived honesty, and likeability. It is likely the same could be said of Marian Keech. It also seems likely that many cult followers have found a surrogate family and a surrogate mother or father or both in the cult leader.
It should also be remembered that in most cases people have not arrived at their irrational beliefs overnight. They have come to them over a period of time with gradually escalated commitments (ibid. chapter 7). Nobody would join a cult if the pitch were: "Follow me. Drink this poisoned-but-flavored water and commit suicide." Yet, not everybody in the cult drank the poison and two of Keech's followers quit the cult when the prophecy failed. How were they different from the others? The explanation seems simple: their faith in their leader was weak. According to Festinger, the two who left Keech--Kurt Freund and Arthur Bergen--were lightly committed to begin with (Festinger 1956: 208).
It's an interesting point, exy and free soul. Depression has been described as "anger turned inward." Since disagreeing with leadership was not allowed, and respect for leadership was paramount, I was often squelching little slights and disagreements, and not "dealing with issues" as they came up. That was easy for me, as it was the family dynamic when I was growing up, and was reinforced by the work ethic of the dance studio, where if you just shut up and work harder, you can change things.
Did it translate into a tendency toward supressing emotion and staying in bad relationships too long as an adult? Yes it did!
I don`t know.... it is like they promised to *fix* everything.... teach us EVERYTHING pertaining to life and Godliness... healing....whatever our issues were....
But somehow in the process ..... we became entirely dependant on them for everything....self worth....friends....a substitue family...a noble mission...aproval from friends...aproval from God.....understanding what he required of us....
They promised us answeres.... They promised us healing.... they won our trust....we dared to finally hope.......as a result....we stayed even when miserable...endured abuse, lived in untenable situations....in hopes of achieving the promised health/wellbeing.
I think they definatly messed with our heads......I think that many health issues, both mental and physical were never addressed because we believed that we were going to be healed.
It is my opinion that now we are out....we are faced with the same issues that should have had attention 20 years ago...plus a whole slew of new ones due to our involvement.
Consonance and dissonance are also musical terms. If you hit 2 consecutive notes on a piano at the same time, it sounds really bad. This is called a dissonance. If you hit do and mi at the same time (major 3rd) it sounds good. This is called a consonance, or consonant interval. The object is to create a dissonance by using minor or diminished chords and then resolve the dissonance by using major or augmented chords, but some composers will create a really really bad sounding dissonance and then resolve it with a lesser dissonance.
Anybody remember the 1st Mothers of Invention album? The bit where they go..."it can't happen HERE!" and later..."Whooooo could imagine that they would freak out in..."? I saw Zappa in 1974 and he actually told the crowd that the harmonies in those parts were made by deliberately using 8 consecutive dissonant intervals.
Cognitive dissonance sounds like what TWI used to call "orderly disorder".
Depression has been described as "anger turned inward." Since disagreeing with leadership was not allowed, and respect for leadership was paramount, I was often squelching little slights and disagreements, and not "dealing with issues" as they came up.
Shaz, I think this is why there are so many heavy drinkers and/or alcoholics among the ranks of those in, out and still in offshoots (my observation alone) - - self medicating.
Rascal said:
I think that many health issues, both mental and physical were never addressed because we believed that we were going to be healed.
It is my opinion that now we are out....we are faced with the same issues that should have had attention 20 years ago...plus a whole slew of new ones due to our involvement.
I still talk to ex-twi people who won't go to a doctor (in their 40s and 50s) for simple check ups that could save their lives; that very obviously suffer from depression or remnants of "Waybrain" that they still do not function very "normally" without references to Way world that people never associated with twi don't understand.
Absolutely shaz.... I think that people...way too many exway people self medicate with alcohol...it is the only acceptable solution for ignoring what is wrong inside.
Mental help, AA, medication for depression all still taboo...even decades after leaving.
I had unbelievable battles in the early years with spouse over simply taking the kiddoes to the pediatrician.
Altho, never prevented.....every time that I did/do it is a let down and an indication of my lack of believing/trusting in God
Like the Heaven's Gate folks forty years later, Keech and her followers, known as The Seekers or The Brotherhood of the Seven Rays, were waiting to be picked up by flying saucers. In Keech's prophecy, her group of eleven was to be saved just before the earth was to be destroyed by a massive flood on December 21, 1954. When it became evident that there would be no flood and the Guardians weren't stopping by to pick them up, Keech became elated. She said she'd just received a telepathic message from the Guardians saying that her group of believers had spread so much light with their unflagging faith that God had spared the world from the cataclysm (Levine 2003: 206).
Didn't we see this one in progress on the Eyewitnesses 1976 thread?
(snip)
Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behavior by one's prophet can be rationalized. There are many examples of people so devoted to another that they will rationalize or ignore extreme mental and physical abuse by their cult leader (or spouse or boyfriend). If the basis for a person's belief is irrational faith grounded in devotion to a powerful personality, then the only option that person has when confronted with evidence that should undermine her faith would seem to be to continue to be irrational, unless her faith was not that strong to begin with.
(snip)
"Research shows that three characteristics are related to persuasiveness: perceived authority, honesty, and likeability" (ibid. 31).
(snip)
According to Robert Levine, "studies have uncovered surprisingly little commonality in the type of personality that joins cults: there's no single cult-prone personality type" (ibid. 144). This fact surprised Levine. When he began his investigation of cults he "shared the common stereotype that most joiners were psychological misfits or religious fanatics" (ibid. 81). What he found instead was that many cult members are attracted to what appears to be a loving community. "One of the ironies of cults is that the craziest groups are often composed of the most caring people (ibid. 83)." Levine says of cult leader Jim Jones that he was "a supersalesman who exerted most every rule of persuasion" (ibid. 213). He had authority, perceived honesty, and likeability. It is likely the same could be said of Marian Keech. It also seems likely that many cult followers have found a surrogate family and a surrogate mother or father or both in the cult leader.
It should also be remembered that in most cases people have not arrived at their irrational beliefs overnight. They have come to them over a period of time with gradually escalated commitments
LOL! Once I finally started really wanting "out", I recognized the cognative dissonance of TWI. I think the thing that contributed to that dissonance was the fact that most of the individuals people associated with were the genuinely caring people. When you have so may good experiences along with so many conflicting teachings and abusive experiences it multiplies the dissonance we feel.
I also thought about the connection with that to drug and alcohol abuse. Self-medicating to not have to deal with or acknowledge where things were wrong. Typical TWI teachings - ignore it and it never happened or it will go away - that's why we cringed whenever someone would mention something negative whether it was about their life, our life or TWI. Negatives were not allowed and they had to go somewhere. Too often they went deep down inside and never got cleared up.
I think that's why some people are still staunchly defensive of TWI and vee pee. They would have to admit that we were snookered. We were conned in the most horribly destructive ways. Some people still see themselves as the problem and not those who are truly responsible. To reconcile the bad feelings they have to defend TWI, vee pee and others who contributed to the destruction of themselves and so many other people.
Back in the "good ole days" those who were really in TWI for God and for the loving community had far fewer problems and challenges deciding to leave when TWI wasn't what they needed anymore. Those people probably don't have the same problems that we who were fully involved and devoted have. I suppose that's something else to consider and keep in mind when we talk to each other. While we all got out in our own time ad we all recover in our own time - a lot of that has to do with this cognitive dissonance and how that's handled.
we became entirely dependant on them for everything....self worth....friends....a substitute family
That's it in a nutshell--not only for TWI/ cults but for most other destructive behaviors , drugs, alcohol etc. If you are needy in any of those areas you are vulnerable--I don't mean just a bad day --but actually feel that one of those areas is totally missing from your life on a constant basis.
If you are needy in two of those areas you are ripe for the picking and if you are needy in three of those areas you are hooked well and good,
And after being hooked--are you really going to willingly escape back to the "Neediness" of the past???
It isn't that you don't hear the dissonance it's just that having been without music for so long in your life--any music is welcome.
I'm still looking for the file that I saw this in, but this is the gist of it:
Two students at a university were having lunch together, a Unitarian Universalist and a Unification Church (Moonie) member (no, this is not an intro to a joke :) ). The Moonie was explaining his beliefs to the other student, and why he held them to be true. The UU student then asked the Moonie directly, "Look. You are making some of the highest grades on campus, and are working on your doctorate. You are a very intelligent and critically thinking person. Yet you have beliefs that you just can't prove, and don't make any sense whatsoever. How do you harmonize the apparent cognitive dissonance here?" With out missing a beat, the Moonie explained, "Simple. You just separate that which you know, from that which you believe. ... There is a lot of that happening you know."
Yes, a lot indeed.
(And notice that the Moonie didn't deny the cognitive dissonance charge)
----
And I often wonder how much of this same cognitive dissonance occurs in more mainstream beliefs as well, particularly when it comes to the concept of 'just take it on faith'? It isn't just a 'cult mind control' thing, ya know.
Yeah Garth, I think the dissonance thing happens a lot. I've heard of another term "compartmentalization."
On changingminds.org it's describe as a 'divide & conquer' tactic in the art of persuasion. It's a process for separating thoughts that will conflict with one another [different beliefs or conflicting values].
This goes back to Tonto's thread of "when did you turn your brain off?" We all remember times when we'd see or hear something we thought was morally wrong - or made no sense. And the "spiritual compartment" of our heads would say 'pipe down - renew your mind - you're not being spiritual minded.' I think faith and reason are allies - the Bible shows faith and sight to be in opposition.
Whether a thing "makes sense" is a highly subjective call.
What makes sense to one person may make no sense to another--so to equate "not provable" [and this leaves the whole issue of what constitutes proof wide open] to "makes sense" on a unilateral basis is a rather narrow interpretation
Middle C and B played together make a seemingly "dissonant" sound.
Add the E and waddya get? Or with a G below middle C?
Dissonance is relative, to context, in music. Since W. European music emphasizes polyphony, "modern" music homophony all that's left is monophony - chants, eastern music, ancient stuff, etc.
A single voice won't create dissonance, we need more voices to create a "clash". Buuuuut, that clash is relative to perception where recognizing say, the 8 tone scale's "naturalness" is based on the recognition of the intervals, which can be changed.
I'm inclined towards Templelady's comment of "subjectivity" - where a standard is established (in music, "play a major pentatonic scale starting on the root tone of middle C please")....play a Bb and you have dissonance. But not really - you have a minor pentatonic, fine but out of context with what's expected.
What are the standards? What's "normal"? Is it based on what's expected? Or...? If one person says "this is the standard yada yada" they can always be in subjective harmony with their own voice.
The vast complexity of music and the algorithms to produce it are - endless? Well, there's a lot anyway. But some will prefer and choose one over another. We all do that, personal preference, what we like, what we know, what we choose.
Music and religion have one thing very much in common I think - a person can produce what they're "inspired" to and for that person there's balance, wholeness and continuity. One person's C.D. can be some jumpin' stuff to another person. Again - standards....?
Seems like the concept has been defined - "cognitive dissonance" - when what you believe doesn't "line up" with what you perceive.
Isn't that the definition of faith? Isn't that what Naaman did, washing 7 times? Isn't that what Moses did, walking into the Red Sea? And what about the "fiery furnace," Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?
So when is cognitive dissonance a bad thing?
a. When it's in the service of man rather than God (you're being lied to, in other words)
b. When you walk into the waves and the waters don't part (you're deceiving yourself, in other words)
So what is it, really? Seems to me it's the subordination of your ability to think rationally, to your feelings.
It's your rational mind, strapped to a gurney, bound, and gagged by your feelings, to attain some kind of internal, emotional equilibrium, to feel "right." Feeling right often has little or nothing to do with feeling good.
So how did this serve The Way International? How did TWI get followers to stop thinking and serve their feelings, and how did it come to dictate those feelings?
So how did this serve The Way International? How did TWI get followers to stop thinking and serve their feelings, and how did it come to dictate those feelings?
Step 1: start by finding people who want hope; who want to do good; who want answers.
Step 2: tell these people you know how to find the answers which will tell them how to do the greatest good and provide the most hope.
Step 3: appear to be personable, good-hearted, and above all: questing yourself.
Step 4: provide a structure that "feels" safe and secure, and "seems" to bring greater results to the people than they could obtain on their own.
Step 5: bring on the cognitive dissonance (in small bites) and hope that most people won't leave.
I mean, think about it... why did so many of us stay back in the 70s and 80s and why has twi had so much trouble getting new people to stay in the 90s and 2000s? Us "oldies" had a chance to get comfy in twi. We "felt" loved and secure. We "seemed" to have found just what we were looking for.... we had TIME to build our trust and beliefs before they started delivering the ultimatums.
Folks who get involved now... geez, they are getting confronted by the first fellowship. I mean STRONG confrontations. Most of them are gone right quick. (lucky them!!)
I understand TempleLady's comment on what makes sense sounds like a highly subjective call and Socks' saying subjectivity needs a standard. I agree. Dictionary definition of "sense" is the ability to think or reason soundly, normal intelligence and judgment; soundness of judgment or reasoning. something wise, sound or reasonable.
Turning your brain off - as Tonto put it - is suppressing your critical thinking, reasoning, discernment, conscience. I don't think that's a good thing.
I think there's a point of no return, after which you are trapped by your commitment to the lie.
Not that you think it's a lie. You don't. Just the opposite. You don't see it clearly, but you really, really believe it's true.
So when that lie (Vic Wierwille's false doctrines, for instance) becomes the exalted TRUTH, anything which contradicts it must be a lie. And if the circumstances of your life contradict exalted TRUTH, then your life is a lie.
if the circumstances of your life contradict exalted TRUTH, then your life is a lie.
Gosh if THAT doesn`t define my whole twi experience.....even after leaving....situations, people, their experiences...anything that contradicted way doctrine were immediatly deposited in the *lie* catagory...in spite of having an otherwise unimpeachable character.
I think there's a point of no return, after which you are trapped by your commitment to the lie.
Not that you think it's a lie. You don't. Just the opposite. You don't see it clearly, but you really, really believe it's true.
So when that lie (Vic Wierwille's false doctrines, for instance) becomes the exalted TRUTH, anything which contradicts it must be a lie. And if the circumstances of your life contradict exalted TRUTH, then your life is a lie.
What does that mean?
I don't know, but it's depressing.
_______________________________________
Recall from the Cult thread:
Douglas Hyde wrote a book which was first published in 1966 entitled, Dedication and Leadership. Hyde had grown up as a Roman Catholic, converted to communism in his idealistic adolescence, and then as a mature man returned to Roman Catholicism. {Oldies, are you reading this very closely?} One central premise of the book is that the Christian churches should use the thought reforming techniques (such as ‘struggle groups’ and the mobilization of peer pressure) of the communists, not to convert Christians to communism, but to “get” [? extort] the maximum productive work [? slave labor] out of Christian believers and workers, who appeared all too smug, complacent, and self-satisfied in Hydes’s opinion [and VPW’s.]
Following are some of the totalitarian methods and strategies utilized by VPW/LCM/TWI that Doug Hyde espoused. I will paraphrase Hyde and insert corresponding TWI practices where comparable to totalitarian techniques.
2) The most distinguishing mark of the Communists [TWI rank & file member] is their [manipulated, exploited] idealism, their zeal, commitment/dedication, devotion to their cause and willingness to make phenomenal personal sacrifices [TWI has numerous programs that “assisted” one in “advancing” in learning to be so supposedly “self-less”]. The Communists [TWI] have evolved their “own means” [thought reform, packaged persuasion, struggle groups] by which they are able to “evoke” [pavlovian subliminally conditioned responses; post-hypnotic suggestion; various aspects of social peer pressure] an exceptional degree of [manipulated] commitment/dedication [TWI culttically-induced pseudo-self & pseudo-identiy, essentially Waybots with a bad case of waybrain]. Both Communists and TWI utilize a step by step process.
3) The majority of those persons who join the Communist Party [TWI] are young. The average joining age tends to be between fifteen and twenty-five [see the appendices in the book, Snapping; very similar demographics are noted for TWI followers]. Youth is a period noted to be characterized by a profound degree of idealism. The Communists [TWI] recruit these [college aged] young people by [manipulatively] appealing to their idealism and harnessing [captivating, enslaving] it to their “cause” [greedy, lustful, worldly self-interests of the top TWI leadership] with the end result of a tremendous pro-Communist [pro-TWI] effect [yet unequivocally personally self-defeating for the individual adherent]; it is a most “dynamic” thing. VPW was very fond of the word, “dynamic.”
4) Communism [TWI] becomes the dominant thing in the life of the Communist [TWI]. It is something to which he “gives” [is manipulated into inappropriate dispersal] himself completely. Quite obviously it “meets a need” [TWI uses the same terminology], fills a vacuum at the time when he is first recruited into it. It is a matter of the Communist or TWI preying on a potential recruits’ individual susceptibility and transient vulnerability at that unique point in time. More significant is that Communism [TWI] normally continues to be the dominant force in the life of the Communist [TWI member] for as long as he remains in the “movement” [TWI spoke of the ‘movement’ of God’s rightly divided (TWI-defined and interpreted) ‘Word’ over the World].
5) The Communists’ [TWI’s] appeal to idealism is direct and audacious. Communists [TWI] says that if you make mean little demands upon people, you will only get a mean little response, which is what you deserve for your lack of a bold appeal; but, if you repetitively make huge demands on people, you will get a heroic response [manipulation by the rejection-then-retreat, perceptual contrast, and commitment-consistency principles, among others]. Communists [TWI] work on the assumption that if you call for large personal sacrifices, people will “respond” [by conditioning and thought reform] to this and, moreover, the relatively smaller required sacrifices will come quite “naturally” [TWI's cultic-induced synthetic pseudo-self in relatively automatic and consistent daily operation].
6) Like attracts like. Those who are intrigued or attracted by the commitment/dedicationthey see within the Communist [TWI] “movement” will themselves be “possessed” of a latent idealism, a capacity for commitment/dedication. This commitment/dedication perpetuates itself, it essentially grows its own legs. It sets the tone and pace of the “movement” as a whole. This being so, the movement can make huge demands upon its adherents, knowing that the “correct [conditioned] response” will come. If the majority of the members, from the top leaders on down, are characterized by their “single-minded” commitment/devotionto the “cause,” and it is quite clear that the majority of genuinely committed/dedicated, average adherents are “giving” [via guilt and fear manipulation] until it hurts, putting in their money, time, thought, talents, and if necessary, life itself, then this living example of commitment/dedication, and loyalty is “inspiring” to potential adherents, who have never experienced the startling appeal of being totalitarian, deployable [TWI] agents.
If one probes into the recruiting tactics of Communism [TWI], almost invariably one will find that it is not the theoretical or doctrinal elements that makes the enticing initial impact, but, the shocking impact made on them by some commited/dedicatedCommunist [TWI mature member] , which via social manipulation {modeling, peer pressure, etc} predisposes and conditions the recruit to affiliate with a “movement” and to accept bizarre “doctrines” [perhaps esoteric Hermeticism and gnostic dualism] which otherwise most probably would have been totally unacceptable to them via application of their usual critical analysis of a highly emotional, social situation.
7) Commitment/dedicationmust be met with commitment/dedication. Ideally, it should be backed by a genuine understanding of Communism’s [TWI’s] beliefs]. This is precisely where the significance of VPW/LCM/TWI’s plagiarized, confabulated, iconoclastic, hermetic doctrinal beliefs become of interest to us, because they subserve (under gird, support) the ‘renewed mind’ mental infrastructure of TWI-promoted actions / deeds / behaviors / practices / conduct, these practices being detrimental and damaging to many individuals.
8) What distinguishes the Communist [TWI] “movement” from essentially all others and makes it possible for such a small minority of people to make so great an impact upon our time is the [manipulated, exploited] commitment/dedicationof the average individual adherent and the immense and dynamic force this represents when all those individuals collectively make their contribution to the Communist [TWI] “cause.”
Without this [manipulated] magnitude of commitment/dedication, the Communists [TWI] would not be prepared to accept the constraining confines of the organizational culture, the discipline, the never ending, bone wearying ‘Marxist education’ [TWI classes, seminars, special advanced classes, etc], the incessant appeals [via guilt and fear motivation] for ever more pro-Communist [pro-TWI] actions and behaviors [on a personal level: renewed mind activities, glossolalia; On an organizational level: the so-called outreach/witnessing of the {TWI-defined} ‘Word,’ attending Household Fellowship meetings many times per week, attending national level TWI meetings such as Advanced Classed, Special Advanced Classes, Word in Business and Profession Conferences, etc].
9) Commitment/dedicationto Communism [TWI] and willingness to experience the ‘awesome privilege’ to ‘sacrificially serve’ must be developed in a person, then drawn out of him. TWI would often teach the “principle” of the Biblical “bond-slave,” koine Greek, doulos/doule. This is supposedly an arrangement where one person (the potentially enslaved) would agree to be the bond-slave of a master, so long as the master would supply all of the potentially enslaved person’s needs & those of his immediate family. It was supposedly a relationship of love and trust! TWI taught us that we were to be bond-slaves to TWI’s top Man of God & correspondingly TWI’s hermetic ‘God’ so that the Man of God & God, now analogously one’s Master, would be in a (? bribed) position to be not only willing, but now able to meet one’s need because of his demonstrated bond-slave commitment/dedication, as evidenced by faithful tithing/abundant sharing of one’s finances, steadfast giving of one’s time and talents, etc}.
The Communists [TWI] have had to find “ways and means” of doing this [thought reform, covert packaged persuasion, fraud, misrepresentation, lying, etc.], because after all, the end of a totally Communist [TWI] world justifies any means necessary to accomplish this most noble goal! In the process, Communists [TWI] have discovered that it is good “psychology” to demand much from their people. It is bad psychology and bad politics to demand too little. Communism [TWI] demands one to give his all, all of the time; Communism [TWI] demanded the whole man and got it. This is one of the many paradoxes {hence, ‘dialectical materialism,’ the blending of apparent conceptual opposites} which must face anyone who begins to delve into this aspect of Communism [TWI].
Communism [TWI] we are told, is the great enemy of the individual’s true historical self and self-image. Under Communism [TWI], in practice, the individual’s own true historical personality is to be suppressed [the creation of a new synthetic pseudo-identity, whether Communist-defined or TWI cult-defined]. Philosophically this is assuredly true.
But in practice, whilst the Communist [TWI] “movement” is still only as yet on the path to total world Communism [equivalent to TWI’s all encompassing goal of the prevailing of the (TWI-defined) ‘Word’ over the inhabited world], and therefore they must diligently and tirelessly work through a committed/dedicated minorityof Communist [TWI] adherents, and “use” [manipulate, exploit] each adherent to the uttermost [TWI spoke in terms of “…one doing one’s utmost for His Highest (i.e., TWI-defined ‘God’ or was it the adoration, veneration, and worship of “THE Man of God,” whether VPW or LCM)], it shows a quite exceptional “concern” [avaricious, organizational self-interest] for “drawing out the potentialities” [terrifying the captivated person into outlandish displays of pro-Communist or pro-TWI feigned bravado] of every individual who comes within its “discipline” [organizational coordinated network of programs of intense, exploitative indoctrination].
The “unfolding and growth” [response to packaged persuasion] of the “personality” [pseudo-personality post thought reform] of the recruit to Communism [TWI] is frequently ‘spectacular,’ for Communism [TWI] sets out to “create” [via thought reform] men of [into] a special mould, a consummately ‘formidable person” [now externally validated via an entity of an unconscionable, external locus of control]. TWI often repeated, “…all ‘learning’ must come from outside of the individual-seeking…” (See the PFAL book and syllabus and the WAP syllabus). Communists [TWI] fully expect and demand of their disciple-adherents to be so fanatically committed/dedicatedso as to risk worldly victimization, to be prepared to lose his means of livelihood, to be black-listed by every employer in his particular industry, and to even see his own standard of life and that of his loved ones go down to poverty, illness, and death, if “need” be.
To get all of this Nietzchian superhuman sturm and drang, Communists [TWI] know that the adherent must be “inspired” [via thought reform and continuous reinforcement of indoctrination]. Communists [TWI] realize that this “inspiration” must come from outside of the individual, that the onus is on Communism [TWI] to “create” it [confabulate, misrepresent, lie, whatever it takes]. Communists [TWI] are hard-headed and hard-hearted enough to know that it is not sufficient to have an organization of enthusiasts.
Sacrifice, commitment/dedication, and zeal are not enough in themselves. These [manipulated] “attributes” are definitely important, but they are only a starting point. These [exploited] “qualities” are what “helps” [via response to his intense, indoctrinating, thought reform] to “make” a person persist as an aggressive, active member; these attributes “ensure” [by coercive persuasion] that when the indoctrinated individual is “made and promoted” into leadership, that he continues to lead for the Communist [TWI] “cause” and not for himself.
10) Individual adherents of the Communist Party [TWI] are “brought to believe” [via a systematic, coordinated program of psychological and social manipulation] that collectively they and others like them can ‘change the world’ in their very lifetime [Communist phrase coined by Karl Marx’s friend and collaborator, Frederick Engels; TWI phrase by VP Wierwille, “…the Way Ministry needs to turn the world upside down, which really means to turn it right-side up, because it was ‘kittywampas’ to start with…;”
Communists [TWI] are “convinced” that this is not just a dream for they have techniques [covert packaged persuasion] and a Marxist science [TWI’s ‘sacred science’ of cultic practices with ‘mystical manipulation’] of “change-making” which provides them with the “means” by which this world-changing undertaking [TWI’s ‘Word over the world,’ or ‘The Prevailing ‘Word’ in the Promised Land’] can be accomplished. When a Communist [TWI] manipulative exploiter has succeeded in “making men believe” that ‘change’ is necessary and possible and that they are the ones who can actually achieve it; when the exploiter has “convinced” them that they and the small minority of whom they are a part [an elitist-minded TWI member], can actually “transform” the world in their lifetime, the exploiter has achieved something very considerable indeed [a TWI destructive cult].
11)The detailed instruction of the new Communist Party [TWI] member does not normally begin immediately after he joins. Quite deliberately, and with good reason, the Party [TWI] sends its new members, whenever ‘possible’ into some form of public activity [manipulation of the commitment-consistencyprinciple] before detailed instruction [TWI’s Advanced Class, College Division and Way Corps training]. For TWI this public activity would be something like the Word Over the World (WOW) program, the Way Disciple program, a Way Home living situation, a FellowLaborers training program, etc.
This activity is of course deceptively and strategically designed by the Communists [TWI] to commit the new member publicly to Communism [TWI] {via utilization of the commitment-consistency principle}. This public activity is of profound psychological significance. For this relatively new member, still having to ‘adjust’ his [thought reformed] ‘mind’ to the ‘realization’ that he is now a Communist [sold-out committed TWI member] {all the while realizing that large segments of the general population consider the label of Communist (TWI believer, disciple) to be very negative}, this public display of commitment/dedication is very psychologically [manipulatively, exploitatively] significant indeed. He or she is making a public witness for the ‘cause’ which he is now ‘making his own’ [solidifying the coercively imposed synthetic pseudo-identity which has now largely suppressed the true historical self].
All of this public witnessing activity requires for many people {especially those who are not inclined by natural disposition to be an extrovert, dramatic, persuasive, pushy, etc.} a certain degree of moral courage to overcome the natural tendency of many people to be overly self-conscious, to overcome a social sense of inferiority, etc. As the new member/adherent embarks on his first public witnessing assignment, he usually feels to be such a fool that he is almost resentful of having been commissioned for such outreach work. But before long he begins to ‘understand’ the significance of it all. He receives a lot of low level, hackling-type of verbal abuse from those whom he has disturbed with his public witnessing. The self-conscious new member/adherent is embarrassed at the prospect of becoming the center of a ‘scene.’
But the crowd that begins to gather is a mixed one. He or she now finds himself having to deal with bystanders’ more rational questions than hackling. This rational questioning causes him ‘to draw deeply’ [respond to his intense indoctrination] upon the small resources as he has received in the way of teaching about the Communist Party’s [TWI’s] practices, history, theory, and the supposed integrity [?!] of its leaders. It requires yet another act of moral courage to remain in a war of ideological words for which, he by now realizes, he is not fully equipped.
He now realizes that he does not have all of the answers to the questions he is likely to be asked as a practicing Communist [TWI member]. He is conscious now that he knows far less than he thought he did. In all probability he is now dissatisfied with himself. ‘He or she’ [the new cultic pseudo-identity] would dearly have loved to put up a tremendous war of persuasive, winning, ideological words and concepts for his or her new found hermetic & arcane ‘faith,’ taking on and defeating, or converting, all comers.
He or she has now learned of his or her own inadequacy as far as in-depth, detailed knowledge of Communism [TWI ideology] is concerned. This realization creates in him or her a [manipulated, exploited] deep feeling to become highly ‘educated’ [further in depth indoctrination] as far as his new faith is concerned [once again, via manipulation of the commitment-consistencyprinciple, plus many others].
He or she is now seeking to make himself or herself more adequate, more worthy of the Communist Party [TWI], better able to ‘serve’ the ‘cause.’ And his new found thirst for knowledge about Communism [TWI ideology], the manipulated sense of urgency he or she feels has grown from manipulated actions and behaviors. Theory and action—those apparent opposites—have now found a [manipulated, counterfeit, illusory, putrid] ‘unity’ in his or her [thought reformed & ‘renewed’] ‘mind’ and in his or her [manipulated] experiences.
The stage has now been set [exploitatively manipulated] for the TWI member to ‘desire’ to enter either the College Division or Way Corps so as to acquire this so-called [Gnostic dualism and Hermetic esotericism] “in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.”
15)The Communist Party [TWI] lives by its ‘campaigns’ [as outlined above]. The majority of the new recruits to the Party [TWI] come in via the campaigns which the Party [TWI] ‘organizes’ [via strategic manipulative exploitation]. Campaigning keeps the Party members [TWI disciples] active the whole of the time [so that: they don’t have time to re-evaluate and critically think; they don’t have time to really get involved in anything else]. This is a most strategic and deliberate policy. Communists [TWI] ensure that one campaign follows another almost non-stop. Communists [TWI disciples], if they are worthy of the name at all, are always active [in TWI, to the point of mental if not physical exhaustion, contributing to the development of intra- or post-cultic anxiety, depression, panic, etc.]. Activity in itself serves an important purpose, but it has to be made [by contrivance] as ‘meaningful’ as possible so that more and more non-Communists [non-TWI members] may be deceived into association with the Party [TWI].
VPW & LCM would say that Way Corps leadership in top positions are men & women of a ‘ special mould.’ TWI everywhere sets out to ‘produce’ [indoctrinate] men & women of this so-called special mould. To a large degree, an observer of the TWI cultic scene can see that TWI frequently succeeds in this covert, exploitative endeavor to the detriment of many rank & file adherents.
The man or woman [‘Waybot’] molded by TWI, the new 'leader,' is a formidable man indeed. He is cast in the opposite mould to the traditional 'New Man in Christ,' because TWI’s ‘christ’ is a recycled hybridized pagan god, with characteristics of Osirus, Dionysis, Mithra, Adonis, Pan, Hermes, & other demigods.
Even though a person’s original motivation, upon being deceived into joining TWI, may have been altruistic, even though this person retains much of his or her initial youthful idealism and sense of oneness with suffering humanity in the valley of human need, still, because that person has been indoctrinated to adhere to TWI’s contaminated pseudo-spiritual deeds, that person’s life tends to become contaminated with TWI's oppresive mindset. Therefore the mould into which the TWI leader is pressed is one that ultimately debases him or her as a person.
Part of the tragedy of TWI is that it takes good men & women, with good intentions, and exploitatively uses & abuses them for the corrupt cause of fallacious pseudo-spiritual practices. The tragic consequence of these TWI enforced practices is that the idealistic leaders, who join or adhere to TWI, set out to be the saviours of humanity and become instead men’s jailers.
TWI stands condemned, not only for the problems it has caused the societies of the USA and other nations around the world, but also for the phenomenal psychological damages it has caused in the non-consenting, individual TWI members themselves. The WAY“MINISTRY” in actuality is nothing more than a cultic racketeering scam with a thin veneer of Hermitically oriented, ‘white-washed’ & ‘ redefined’ biblical terms.
NO genuine, lasting virtue has come about due to the existence of TWI. It did in fact between ~1967 to ~1972 attract some people who had a desire to serve God, but a critical mass of these people had been witnessed to by non-TWI people such as Jimmy Doop, Steve Heefner, Ted Wise, & Lonnie Frisbee.
These movements were later invaded by avaricious power-hungry Wierwille. Wierwille-TWI essentially stole these people from those simple, grassroots ministries. In significant part due to the presence of Doop, Heefner, Wise, Frisbee & their followers, as well as the exuberance of their unmistakable presence, many of the PFAL classes of this time period generated a great excitement, more so in spite of Wierwille than due to him & to his supposed original “research” (but in actuality it was almost entirely plagiarized).
Certain honest individuals, comprised of the Doop/Heefner/Wise/Frisbee derivatives, as well as many who became involved directly by Wierwille’s PFAL series, were the pure-hearted people in our local areas that created the positive environment that appealed to the transient vulnerabilities of so many of us.
Then TWI, primarily via Wierwille & later Martindale, those despicable wolves in sheep’s clothing, surreptitiously ‘ taught & trained’ us by way of various exploitative programs {via VPW's PFAL series, the WOW program, the Fellowlaborers’ program, the Way Corps & College Division programs, LCM's WAP series, TWI-II, & many other scenarios} which were ALL disguised TWI indoctrination. The proceeds & benefits of these clandestine programs & MLM operations went not to the TWI-claimed beneficiaries, the rank-and-file affiliates of TWI, but rather went to the TWI Board of Trustees & other high level TWI leadership for their own selfish interests.
TWI ‘redefined’ & hence contaminated the supposed 'grace of God' as a hook of vulnerability on the front side, only to later bait & switch it to oppressive hyper-legalism replete with TWI-exit phobia on the far side of this despicable victimization. This oppressive legalism (the supposed ‘teeth’ Wierwille began speaking of around 1967 to 1972) was originally most visible in the Way Corps in the 1970’s, but after the 1989 LCM loyalty demand, & in/after the Fall of 1995, when LCM began his ‘mark & avoid’- enforced extreme obedience demands (among many other abusive & harmful practices), the end result for those of us who in good faith commitment & dedicationheld out to the bitter end, is that we have essentially nothing to show for our TWI servitude except for the psychological & emotional wounds (damages) with which TWI has so disgracefully left us.
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jardinero
Cognitive dissonance (interesting, Ex - - I studied this in an organizational behavior class in school):
This theory was first explored in detail by social psychologist Leon Festinger, who described it this way (from: Cognitive Dissonance):
Interesting part about cults:
Cognitive dissonance has been called "the mind controller's best friend" (Levine 2003: 202). Yet, a cursory examination of cognitive dissonance reveals that it is not the dissonance, but how people deal with it, that would be of interest to someone trying to control others when the evidence seems against them.
For example, Marian Keech was the leader of a UFO cult in the 1950s. She claimed to get messages from extraterrestrials, known as The Guardians, through automatic writing. Like the Heaven's Gate folks forty years later, Keech and her followers, known as The Seekers or The Brotherhood of the Seven Rays, were waiting to be picked up by flying saucers. In Keech's prophecy, her group of eleven was to be saved just before the earth was to be destroyed by a massive flood on December 21, 1954. When it became evident that there would be no flood and the Guardians weren't stopping by to pick them up, Keech became elated. She said she'd just received a telepathic message from the Guardians saying that her group of believers had spread so much light with their unflagging faith that God had spared the world from the cataclysm (Levine 2003: 206).
More important, the Seekers didn't abandon her. Most became more devoted after the failed prophecy. (Only two left the cult when the world didn't end.) "Most disciples not only stayed but, having made that decision, were now even more convinced than before that Keech had been right all along....Being wrong turned them into true believers (ibid.)." Some people will go to bizarre lengths to avoid inconsistency between their cherished beliefs and the facts. But why do people interpret the same evidence in contrary ways?
The Seekers would not have waited for the flying saucer if they thought it might not come. So, when it didn't come, one would think that a competent thinker would have seen this as falsifying Keech's claim that it would come. However, the incompetent thinkers were rendered incompetent by their devotion to Keech. Their belief that a flying saucer would pick them up was based on faith, not evidence. Likewise, their belief that the failure of the prophesy shouldn't count against their belief was another act of faith. With this kind of irrational thinking, it may seem pointless to produce evidence to try to persuade people of the error of their ways. Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behavior by one's prophet can be rationalized. There are many examples of people so devoted to another that they will rationalize or ignore extreme mental and physical abuse by their cult leader (or spouse or boyfriend). If the basis for a person's belief is irrational faith grounded in devotion to a powerful personality, then the only option that person has when confronted with evidence that should undermine her faith would seem to be to continue to be irrational, unless her faith was not that strong to begin with. The interesting question, then, is not about cognitive dissonance but about faith. What was it about Keech that led some people to have faith in her and what was it about those people that made them vulnerable to Keech? And what was different about the two who left the cult?
"Research shows that three characteristics are related to persuasiveness: perceived authority, honesty, and likeability" (ibid. 31). Furthermore, if a person is physically attractive, we tend to like that person and the more we like a person the more we tend to trust him or her (ibid. 57). Research also show that "people are perceived as more credible when they make eye contact and speak with confidence, no matter what they have to say" (ibid. 33).
According to Robert Levine, "studies have uncovered surprisingly little commonality in the type of personality that joins cults: there's no single cult-prone personality type" (ibid. 144). This fact surprised Levine. When he began his investigation of cults he "shared the common stereotype that most joiners were psychological misfits or religious fanatics" (ibid. 81). What he found instead was that many cult members are attracted to what appears to be a loving community. "One of the ironies of cults is that the craziest groups are often composed of the most caring people (ibid. 83)." Levine says of cult leader Jim Jones that he was "a supersalesman who exerted most every rule of persuasion" (ibid. 213). He had authority, perceived honesty, and likeability. It is likely the same could be said of Marian Keech. It also seems likely that many cult followers have found a surrogate family and a surrogate mother or father or both in the cult leader.
It should also be remembered that in most cases people have not arrived at their irrational beliefs overnight. They have come to them over a period of time with gradually escalated commitments (ibid. chapter 7). Nobody would join a cult if the pitch were: "Follow me. Drink this poisoned-but-flavored water and commit suicide." Yet, not everybody in the cult drank the poison and two of Keech's followers quit the cult when the prophecy failed. How were they different from the others? The explanation seems simple: their faith in their leader was weak. According to Festinger, the two who left Keech--Kurt Freund and Arthur Bergen--were lightly committed to begin with (Festinger 1956: 208).
Veddy, veddy interesting....
J.
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shazdancer
It's an interesting point, exy and free soul. Depression has been described as "anger turned inward." Since disagreeing with leadership was not allowed, and respect for leadership was paramount, I was often squelching little slights and disagreements, and not "dealing with issues" as they came up. That was easy for me, as it was the family dynamic when I was growing up, and was reinforced by the work ethic of the dance studio, where if you just shut up and work harder, you can change things.
Did it translate into a tendency toward supressing emotion and staying in bad relationships too long as an adult? Yes it did!
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
I don`t know.... it is like they promised to *fix* everything.... teach us EVERYTHING pertaining to life and Godliness... healing....whatever our issues were....
But somehow in the process ..... we became entirely dependant on them for everything....self worth....friends....a substitue family...a noble mission...aproval from friends...aproval from God.....understanding what he required of us....
They promised us answeres.... They promised us healing.... they won our trust....we dared to finally hope.......as a result....we stayed even when miserable...endured abuse, lived in untenable situations....in hopes of achieving the promised health/wellbeing.
I think they definatly messed with our heads......I think that many health issues, both mental and physical were never addressed because we believed that we were going to be healed.
It is my opinion that now we are out....we are faced with the same issues that should have had attention 20 years ago...plus a whole slew of new ones due to our involvement.
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johniam
Consonance and dissonance are also musical terms. If you hit 2 consecutive notes on a piano at the same time, it sounds really bad. This is called a dissonance. If you hit do and mi at the same time (major 3rd) it sounds good. This is called a consonance, or consonant interval. The object is to create a dissonance by using minor or diminished chords and then resolve the dissonance by using major or augmented chords, but some composers will create a really really bad sounding dissonance and then resolve it with a lesser dissonance.
Anybody remember the 1st Mothers of Invention album? The bit where they go..."it can't happen HERE!" and later..."Whooooo could imagine that they would freak out in..."? I saw Zappa in 1974 and he actually told the crowd that the harmonies in those parts were made by deliberately using 8 consecutive dissonant intervals.
Cognitive dissonance sounds like what TWI used to call "orderly disorder".
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jardinero
From Shaz:
Shaz, I think this is why there are so many heavy drinkers and/or alcoholics among the ranks of those in, out and still in offshoots (my observation alone) - - self medicating.Rascal said:
I still talk to ex-twi people who won't go to a doctor (in their 40s and 50s) for simple check ups that could save their lives; that very obviously suffer from depression or remnants of "Waybrain" that they still do not function very "normally" without references to Way world that people never associated with twi don't understand.
J.
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rascal
Absolutely shaz.... I think that people...way too many exway people self medicate with alcohol...it is the only acceptable solution for ignoring what is wrong inside.
Mental help, AA, medication for depression all still taboo...even decades after leaving.
I had unbelievable battles in the early years with spouse over simply taking the kiddoes to the pediatrician.
Altho, never prevented.....every time that I did/do it is a let down and an indication of my lack of believing/trusting in God
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WordWolf
Didn't we see this one in progress on the Eyewitnesses 1976 thread?
(snip)
Hm.
Sounds oddly familiar...
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jardinero
Yeah, it's material readily available, WW.
Just wanted to include it in this thread.
J.
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Belle
LOL! Once I finally started really wanting "out", I recognized the cognative dissonance of TWI. I think the thing that contributed to that dissonance was the fact that most of the individuals people associated with were the genuinely caring people. When you have so may good experiences along with so many conflicting teachings and abusive experiences it multiplies the dissonance we feel.
I also thought about the connection with that to drug and alcohol abuse. Self-medicating to not have to deal with or acknowledge where things were wrong. Typical TWI teachings - ignore it and it never happened or it will go away - that's why we cringed whenever someone would mention something negative whether it was about their life, our life or TWI. Negatives were not allowed and they had to go somewhere. Too often they went deep down inside and never got cleared up.
I think that's why some people are still staunchly defensive of TWI and vee pee. They would have to admit that we were snookered. We were conned in the most horribly destructive ways. Some people still see themselves as the problem and not those who are truly responsible. To reconcile the bad feelings they have to defend TWI, vee pee and others who contributed to the destruction of themselves and so many other people.
Back in the "good ole days" those who were really in TWI for God and for the loving community had far fewer problems and challenges deciding to leave when TWI wasn't what they needed anymore. Those people probably don't have the same problems that we who were fully involved and devoted have. I suppose that's something else to consider and keep in mind when we talk to each other. While we all got out in our own time ad we all recover in our own time - a lot of that has to do with this cognitive dissonance and how that's handled.
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templelady
That's it in a nutshell--not only for TWI/ cults but for most other destructive behaviors , drugs, alcohol etc. If you are needy in any of those areas you are vulnerable--I don't mean just a bad day --but actually feel that one of those areas is totally missing from your life on a constant basis.
If you are needy in two of those areas you are ripe for the picking and if you are needy in three of those areas you are hooked well and good,
And after being hooked--are you really going to willingly escape back to the "Neediness" of the past???
It isn't that you don't hear the dissonance it's just that having been without music for so long in your life--any music is welcome.
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GarthP2000
I'm still looking for the file that I saw this in, but this is the gist of it:
Two students at a university were having lunch together, a Unitarian Universalist and a Unification Church (Moonie) member (no, this is not an intro to a joke :) ). The Moonie was explaining his beliefs to the other student, and why he held them to be true. The UU student then asked the Moonie directly, "Look. You are making some of the highest grades on campus, and are working on your doctorate. You are a very intelligent and critically thinking person. Yet you have beliefs that you just can't prove, and don't make any sense whatsoever. How do you harmonize the apparent cognitive dissonance here?" With out missing a beat, the Moonie explained, "Simple. You just separate that which you know, from that which you believe. ... There is a lot of that happening you know."
Yes, a lot indeed.
(And notice that the Moonie didn't deny the cognitive dissonance charge)
----
And I often wonder how much of this same cognitive dissonance occurs in more mainstream beliefs as well, particularly when it comes to the concept of 'just take it on faith'? It isn't just a 'cult mind control' thing, ya know.
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T-Bone
Yeah Garth, I think the dissonance thing happens a lot. I've heard of another term "compartmentalization."
On changingminds.org it's describe as a 'divide & conquer' tactic in the art of persuasion. It's a process for separating thoughts that will conflict with one another [different beliefs or conflicting values].
This goes back to Tonto's thread of "when did you turn your brain off?" We all remember times when we'd see or hear something we thought was morally wrong - or made no sense. And the "spiritual compartment" of our heads would say 'pipe down - renew your mind - you're not being spiritual minded.' I think faith and reason are allies - the Bible shows faith and sight to be in opposition.
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dmiller
And ~~~~~
Yup. Exactly. There's musical compositions that use dissonance heavily,
and then *make up for it* by using less dissonant chords, notes, etc.
Even thought the less abrasive chords help it *sound better*,
they are still abrasive -- grating on the senses.
If we could compare this to *evil*, or *mind control*, the parallels are identical.
Like a bad composition, twi feeds it's *flock* with dissonant BS,
then tempers that with less abrasive BS,
then offers bigger and more abrasive BS,
then tempers it with a little stronger (less abrasive BS),
ad nauseum.
Kinda like turning up the heat on a frog in a pail of water.
Heat goes up gradually, and before he knows it ~~~
he's boiled,
toast,
dead meat.
Same with twi and their MO (mode (of) operation -- not YOU MO) :)
They start out *simple*, then get more complex.
Tempering the really bad, with that that is *less* bad.
In the end -- it's still all bad ~~~
and before ya know it,
yer boiled,
toast,
dead meat.
Orderly disorder says it all. <_<
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templelady
Whether a thing "makes sense" is a highly subjective call.
What makes sense to one person may make no sense to another--so to equate "not provable" [and this leaves the whole issue of what constitutes proof wide open] to "makes sense" on a unilateral basis is a rather narrow interpretation
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socks
Hmmm...interesting points!
Middle C and B played together make a seemingly "dissonant" sound.
Add the E and waddya get? Or with a G below middle C?
Dissonance is relative, to context, in music. Since W. European music emphasizes polyphony, "modern" music homophony all that's left is monophony - chants, eastern music, ancient stuff, etc.
A single voice won't create dissonance, we need more voices to create a "clash". Buuuuut, that clash is relative to perception where recognizing say, the 8 tone scale's "naturalness" is based on the recognition of the intervals, which can be changed.
I'm inclined towards Templelady's comment of "subjectivity" - where a standard is established (in music, "play a major pentatonic scale starting on the root tone of middle C please")....play a Bb and you have dissonance. But not really - you have a minor pentatonic, fine but out of context with what's expected.
What are the standards? What's "normal"? Is it based on what's expected? Or...? If one person says "this is the standard yada yada" they can always be in subjective harmony with their own voice.
The vast complexity of music and the algorithms to produce it are - endless? Well, there's a lot anyway. But some will prefer and choose one over another. We all do that, personal preference, what we like, what we know, what we choose.
Music and religion have one thing very much in common I think - a person can produce what they're "inspired" to and for that person there's balance, wholeness and continuity. One person's C.D. can be some jumpin' stuff to another person. Again - standards....?
("play Mis-hty again, man, I love that toon!")
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satori001
This discussion is a little too abstract for me.
Seems like the concept has been defined - "cognitive dissonance" - when what you believe doesn't "line up" with what you perceive.
Isn't that the definition of faith? Isn't that what Naaman did, washing 7 times? Isn't that what Moses did, walking into the Red Sea? And what about the "fiery furnace," Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?
So when is cognitive dissonance a bad thing?
a. When it's in the service of man rather than God (you're being lied to, in other words)
b. When you walk into the waves and the waters don't part (you're deceiving yourself, in other words)
So what is it, really? Seems to me it's the subordination of your ability to think rationally, to your feelings.
It's your rational mind, strapped to a gurney, bound, and gagged by your feelings, to attain some kind of internal, emotional equilibrium, to feel "right." Feeling right often has little or nothing to do with feeling good.
So how did this serve The Way International? How did TWI get followers to stop thinking and serve their feelings, and how did it come to dictate those feelings?
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excathedra
and could it cause one to experience depression or have mental issues afterwards ? yes, even if they were predisposed
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WordWolf
No, what I meant was "we've seen EXAMPLES of this in ACTION in some
other threads, like the 1976 thread."
I was AGREEING it was worth including-I mean, I quoted it because I thought
it bore REPEATING.
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TheHighWay
Satori001 asked:
So how did this serve The Way International? How did TWI get followers to stop thinking and serve their feelings, and how did it come to dictate those feelings?
Step 1: start by finding people who want hope; who want to do good; who want answers.
Step 2: tell these people you know how to find the answers which will tell them how to do the greatest good and provide the most hope.
Step 3: appear to be personable, good-hearted, and above all: questing yourself.
Step 4: provide a structure that "feels" safe and secure, and "seems" to bring greater results to the people than they could obtain on their own.
Step 5: bring on the cognitive dissonance (in small bites) and hope that most people won't leave.
I mean, think about it... why did so many of us stay back in the 70s and 80s and why has twi had so much trouble getting new people to stay in the 90s and 2000s? Us "oldies" had a chance to get comfy in twi. We "felt" loved and secure. We "seemed" to have found just what we were looking for.... we had TIME to build our trust and beliefs before they started delivering the ultimatums.
Folks who get involved now... geez, they are getting confronted by the first fellowship. I mean STRONG confrontations. Most of them are gone right quick. (lucky them!!)
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ljn698
this is a good thread
it made me think of how things turned out for cutie face and me
we were both in TWI until about 1989 or so
this was about the time the "loyalty oath" was demanded from all of the corps people
and as i said on this board before either they taught us too good
or we learned too good
that such a thing was contrary to The WORD
you know we ought to obey GOD rather than men
paul planted, apollos watered, but GOD gave the increase
and all that stuff
so really just about everybody who lives around here (with a few exceptions)
pretty much had the $h!t$ of TWI after that
so what do they all do?
the top guns all got together and started their own thing which was connected to the
(i guess you could say spin-off or offshoot no offense)
new ministry started by Chris Geer
i know i know some of you guys are thinking
jeez out of the frying pan and into the fire
but that's pretty much the way it went
after that, of course, mentions of TWI, and LCM and anything or anyone connected
therewith were pretty scarce
this is where the dissonance or wrong feeling stuff comes in
so we were going along with the gang around here for a few years or so
but more and more we saw people going bye bye
with no explaination at all
now for the most part neither one of us is the type to go asking about
bad blood or why a certain person is no longer seen or spoken of
most of the time we both figure skrew it let God sort it out
but naturally there were some people who were extremely popular in our set
who we hadn't seen or heard from for a while who we both knew really well
and one time we asked a few of their (at one time) closest buddies
about maybe getting in touch with them and GOOD GRAVY you would have thought
we were asking about atomic weaponry strategy or something
as you can well imagine this was one of those "take the questioner aside" questions
and as some of you folks here are all too painfully aware when you get
"taken aside" for the answer to a question 99.999% of the time you DON'T
get any kind of specific answer to your question!
well anyway our old friends live just a bit too far away for us to go visiting
so as usual we just gotta say skrew it, let GOD sort it out
GOD bless you if you read this whole pest, uh i mean post!
what the hell, GOD bless you even if you didn't!!
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T-Bone
I understand TempleLady's comment on what makes sense sounds like a highly subjective call and Socks' saying subjectivity needs a standard. I agree. Dictionary definition of "sense" is the ability to think or reason soundly, normal intelligence and judgment; soundness of judgment or reasoning. something wise, sound or reasonable.
Turning your brain off - as Tonto put it - is suppressing your critical thinking, reasoning, discernment, conscience. I don't think that's a good thing.
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satori001
I think there's a point of no return, after which you are trapped by your commitment to the lie.
Not that you think it's a lie. You don't. Just the opposite. You don't see it clearly, but you really, really believe it's true.
So when that lie (Vic Wierwille's false doctrines, for instance) becomes the exalted TRUTH, anything which contradicts it must be a lie. And if the circumstances of your life contradict exalted TRUTH, then your life is a lie.
What does that mean?
I don't know, but it's depressing.
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rascal
Gosh if THAT doesn`t define my whole twi experience.....even after leaving....situations, people, their experiences...anything that contradicted way doctrine were immediatly deposited in the *lie* catagory...in spite of having an otherwise unimpeachable character.
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jkboehme
Per satori001:
_______________________________________
Recall from the Cult thread:
Douglas Hyde wrote a book which was first published in 1966 entitled, Dedication and Leadership. Hyde had grown up as a Roman Catholic, converted to communism in his idealistic adolescence, and then as a mature man returned to Roman Catholicism. {Oldies, are you reading this very closely?} One central premise of the book is that the Christian churches should use the thought reforming techniques (such as ‘struggle groups’ and the mobilization of peer pressure) of the communists, not to convert Christians to communism, but to “get” [? extort] the maximum productive work [? slave labor] out of Christian believers and workers, who appeared all too smug, complacent, and self-satisfied in Hydes’s opinion [and VPW’s.]
Following are some of the totalitarian methods and strategies utilized by VPW/LCM/TWI that Doug Hyde espoused. I will paraphrase Hyde and insert corresponding TWI practices where comparable to totalitarian techniques.
2) The most distinguishing mark of the Communists [TWI rank & file member] is their [manipulated, exploited] idealism, their zeal, commitment/dedication, devotion to their cause and willingness to make phenomenal personal sacrifices [TWI has numerous programs that “assisted” one in “advancing” in learning to be so supposedly “self-less”]. The Communists [TWI] have evolved their “own means” [thought reform, packaged persuasion, struggle groups] by which they are able to “evoke” [pavlovian subliminally conditioned responses; post-hypnotic suggestion; various aspects of social peer pressure] an exceptional degree of [manipulated] commitment/dedication [TWI culttically-induced pseudo-self & pseudo-identiy, essentially Waybots with a bad case of waybrain]. Both Communists and TWI utilize a step by step process.
3) The majority of those persons who join the Communist Party [TWI] are young. The average joining age tends to be between fifteen and twenty-five [see the appendices in the book, Snapping; very similar demographics are noted for TWI followers]. Youth is a period noted to be characterized by a profound degree of idealism. The Communists [TWI] recruit these [college aged] young people by [manipulatively] appealing to their idealism and harnessing [captivating, enslaving] it to their “cause” [greedy, lustful, worldly self-interests of the top TWI leadership] with the end result of a tremendous pro-Communist [pro-TWI] effect [yet unequivocally personally self-defeating for the individual adherent]; it is a most “dynamic” thing. VPW was very fond of the word, “dynamic.”
4) Communism [TWI] becomes the dominant thing in the life of the Communist [TWI]. It is something to which he “gives” [is manipulated into inappropriate dispersal] himself completely. Quite obviously it “meets a need” [TWI uses the same terminology], fills a vacuum at the time when he is first recruited into it. It is a matter of the Communist or TWI preying on a potential recruits’ individual susceptibility and transient vulnerability at that unique point in time. More significant is that Communism [TWI] normally continues to be the dominant force in the life of the Communist [TWI member] for as long as he remains in the “movement” [TWI spoke of the ‘movement’ of God’s rightly divided (TWI-defined and interpreted) ‘Word’ over the World].
5) The Communists’ [TWI’s] appeal to idealism is direct and audacious. Communists [TWI] says that if you make mean little demands upon people, you will only get a mean little response, which is what you deserve for your lack of a bold appeal; but, if you repetitively make huge demands on people, you will get a heroic response [manipulation by the rejection-then-retreat, perceptual contrast, and commitment-consistency principles, among others]. Communists [TWI] work on the assumption that if you call for large personal sacrifices, people will “respond” [by conditioning and thought reform] to this and, moreover, the relatively smaller required sacrifices will come quite “naturally” [TWI's cultic-induced synthetic pseudo-self in relatively automatic and consistent daily operation].6) Like attracts like. Those who are intrigued or attracted by the commitment/dedication they see within the Communist [TWI] “movement” will themselves be “possessed” of a latent idealism, a capacity for commitment/dedication. This commitment/dedication perpetuates itself, it essentially grows its own legs. It sets the tone and pace of the “movement” as a whole. This being so, the movement can make huge demands upon its adherents, knowing that the “correct [conditioned] response” will come. If the majority of the members, from the top leaders on down, are characterized by their “single-minded” commitment/devotion to the “cause,” and it is quite clear that the majority of genuinely committed/dedicated, average adherents are “giving” [via guilt and fear manipulation] until it hurts, putting in their money, time, thought, talents, and if necessary, life itself, then this living example of commitment/dedication, and loyalty is “inspiring” to potential adherents, who have never experienced the startling appeal of being totalitarian, deployable [TWI] agents.
7) Commitment/dedication must be met with commitment/dedication. Ideally, it should be backed by a genuine understanding of Communism’s [TWI’s] beliefs]. This is precisely where the significance of VPW/LCM/TWI’s plagiarized, confabulated, iconoclastic, hermetic doctrinal beliefs become of interest to us, because they subserve (under gird, support) the ‘renewed mind’ mental infrastructure of TWI-promoted actions / deeds / behaviors / practices / conduct, these practices being detrimental and damaging to many individuals.
8) What distinguishes the Communist [TWI] “movement” from essentially all others and makes it possible for such a small minority of people to make so great an impact upon our time is the [manipulated, exploited] commitment/dedication of the average individual adherent and the immense and dynamic force this represents when all those individuals collectively make their contribution to the Communist [TWI] “cause.”Without this [manipulated] magnitude of commitment/dedication, the Communists [TWI] would not be prepared to accept the constraining confines of the organizational culture, the discipline, the never ending, bone wearying ‘Marxist education’ [TWI classes, seminars, special advanced classes, etc], the incessant appeals [via guilt and fear motivation] for ever more pro-Communist [pro-TWI] actions and behaviors [on a personal level: renewed mind activities, glossolalia; On an organizational level: the so-called outreach/witnessing of the {TWI-defined} ‘Word,’ attending Household Fellowship meetings many times per week, attending national level TWI meetings such as Advanced Classed, Special Advanced Classes, Word in Business and Profession Conferences, etc].
9) Commitment/dedication to Communism [TWI] and willingness to experience the ‘awesome privilege’ to ‘sacrificially serve’ must be developed in a person, then drawn out of him. TWI would often teach the “principle” of the Biblical “bond-slave,” koine Greek, doulos/doule. This is supposedly an arrangement where one person (the potentially enslaved) would agree to be the bond-slave of a master, so long as the master would supply all of the potentially enslaved person’s needs & those of his immediate family. It was supposedly a relationship of love and trust! TWI taught us that we were to be bond-slaves to TWI’s top Man of God & correspondingly TWI’s hermetic ‘God’ so that the Man of God & God, now analogously one’s Master, would be in a (? bribed) position to be not only willing, but now able to meet one’s need because of his demonstrated bond-slave commitment/dedication, as evidenced by faithful tithing/abundant sharing of one’s finances, steadfast giving of one’s time and talents, etc}.
The Communists [TWI] have had to find “ways and means” of doing this [thought reform, covert packaged persuasion, fraud, misrepresentation, lying, etc.], because after all, the end of a totally Communist [TWI] world justifies any means necessary to accomplish this most noble goal! In the process, Communists [TWI] have discovered that it is good “psychology” to demand much from their people. It is bad psychology and bad politics to demand too little. Communism [TWI] demands one to give his all, all of the time; Communism [TWI] demanded the whole man and got it. This is one of the many paradoxes {hence, ‘dialectical materialism,’ the blending of apparent conceptual opposites} which must face anyone who begins to delve into this aspect of Communism [TWI].Communism [TWI] we are told, is the great enemy of the individual’s true historical self and self-image. Under Communism [TWI], in practice, the individual’s own true historical personality is to be suppressed [the creation of a new synthetic pseudo-identity, whether Communist-defined or TWI cult-defined]. Philosophically this is assuredly true.
But in practice, whilst the Communist [TWI] “movement” is still only as yet on the path to total world Communism [equivalent to TWI’s all encompassing goal of the prevailing of the (TWI-defined) ‘Word’ over the inhabited world], and therefore they must diligently and tirelessly work through a committed/dedicated minority of Communist [TWI] adherents, and “use” [manipulate, exploit] each adherent to the uttermost [TWI spoke in terms of “…one doing one’s utmost for His Highest (i.e., TWI-defined ‘God’ or was it the adoration, veneration, and worship of “THE Man of God,” whether VPW or LCM)], it shows a quite exceptional “concern” [avaricious, organizational self-interest] for “drawing out the potentialities” [terrifying the captivated person into outlandish displays of pro-Communist or pro-TWI feigned bravado] of every individual who comes within its “discipline” [organizational coordinated network of programs of intense, exploitative indoctrination].
The “unfolding and growth” [response to packaged persuasion] of the “personality” [pseudo-personality post thought reform] of the recruit to Communism [TWI] is frequently ‘spectacular,’ for Communism [TWI] sets out to “create” [via thought reform] men of [into] a special mould, a consummately ‘formidable person” [now externally validated via an entity of an unconscionable, external locus of control]. TWI often repeated, “…all ‘learning’ must come from outside of the individual-seeking…” (See the PFAL book and syllabus and the WAP syllabus). Communists [TWI] fully expect and demand of their disciple-adherents to be so fanatically committed/dedicated so as to risk worldly victimization, to be prepared to lose his means of livelihood, to be black-listed by every employer in his particular industry, and to even see his own standard of life and that of his loved ones go down to poverty, illness, and death, if “need” be.
To get all of this Nietzchian superhuman sturm and drang, Communists [TWI] know that the adherent must be “inspired” [via thought reform and continuous reinforcement of indoctrination]. Communists [TWI] realize that this “inspiration” must come from outside of the individual, that the onus is on Communism [TWI] to “create” it [confabulate, misrepresent, lie, whatever it takes]. Communists [TWI] are hard-headed and hard-hearted enough to know that it is not sufficient to have an organization of enthusiasts.Sacrifice, commitment/dedication, and zeal are not enough in themselves. These [manipulated] “attributes” are definitely important, but they are only a starting point. These [exploited] “qualities” are what “helps” [via response to his intense, indoctrinating, thought reform] to “make” a person persist as an aggressive, active member; these attributes “ensure” [by coercive persuasion] that when the indoctrinated individual is “made and promoted” into leadership, that he continues to lead for the Communist [TWI] “cause” and not for himself.
10) Individual adherents of the Communist Party [TWI] are “brought to believe” [via a systematic, coordinated program of psychological and social manipulation] that collectively they and others like them can ‘change the world’ in their very lifetime [Communist phrase coined by Karl Marx’s friend and collaborator, Frederick Engels; TWI phrase by VP Wierwille, “…the Way Ministry needs to turn the world upside down, which really means to turn it right-side up, because it was ‘kittywampas’ to start with…;”
11) The detailed instruction of the new Communist Party [TWI] member does not normally begin immediately after he joins. Quite deliberately, and with good reason, the Party [TWI] sends its new members, whenever ‘possible’ into some form of public activity [manipulation of the commitment-consistency principle] before detailed instruction [TWI’s Advanced Class, College Division and Way Corps training]. For TWI this public activity would be something like the Word Over the World (WOW) program, the Way Disciple program, a Way Home living situation, a FellowLaborers training program, etc.
He now realizes that he does not have all of the answers to the questions he is likely to be asked as a practicing Communist [TWI member]. He is conscious now that he knows far less than he thought he did. In all probability he is now dissatisfied with himself. ‘He or she’ [the new cultic pseudo-identity] would dearly have loved to put up a tremendous war of persuasive, winning, ideological words and concepts for his or her new found hermetic & arcane ‘faith,’ taking on and defeating, or converting, all comers.
He or she is now seeking to make himself or herself more adequate, more worthy of the Communist Party [TWI], better able to ‘serve’ the ‘cause.’ And his new found thirst for knowledge about Communism [TWI ideology], the manipulated sense of urgency he or she feels has grown from manipulated actions and behaviors. Theory and action—those apparent opposites—have now found a [manipulated, counterfeit, illusory, putrid] ‘unity’ in his or her [thought reformed & ‘renewed’] ‘mind’ and in his or her [manipulated] experiences.
The stage has now been set [exploitatively manipulated] for the TWI member to ‘desire’ to enter either the College Division or Way Corps so as to acquire this so-called [Gnostic dualism and Hermetic esotericism] “in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.”
VPW & LCM would say that Way Corps leadership in top positions are men & women of a ‘ special mould.’ TWI everywhere sets out to ‘produce’ [indoctrinate] men & women of this so-called special mould. To a large degree, an observer of the TWI cultic scene can see that TWI frequently succeeds in this covert, exploitative endeavor to the detriment of many rank & file adherents.
The man or woman [‘Waybot’] molded by TWI, the new 'leader,' is a formidable man indeed. He is cast in the opposite mould to the traditional 'New Man in Christ,' because TWI’s ‘christ’ is a recycled hybridized pagan god, with characteristics of Osirus, Dionysis, Mithra, Adonis, Pan, Hermes, & other demigods.
Even though a person’s original motivation, upon being deceived into joining TWI, may have been altruistic, even though this person retains much of his or her initial youthful idealism and sense of oneness with suffering humanity in the valley of human need, still, because that person has been indoctrinated to adhere to TWI’s contaminated pseudo-spiritual deeds, that person’s life tends to become contaminated with TWI's oppresive mindset. Therefore the mould into which the TWI leader is pressed is one that ultimately debases him or her as a person.
Part of the tragedy of TWI is that it takes good men & women, with good intentions, and exploitatively uses & abuses them for the corrupt cause of fallacious pseudo-spiritual practices. The tragic consequence of these TWI enforced practices is that the idealistic leaders, who join or adhere to TWI, set out to be the saviours of humanity and become instead men’s jailers.
TWI stands condemned, not only for the problems it has caused the societies of the USA and other nations around the world, but also for the phenomenal psychological damages it has caused in the non-consenting, individual TWI members themselves. The WAY “MINISTRY” in actuality is nothing more than a cultic racketeering scam with a thin veneer of Hermitically oriented, ‘white-washed’ & ‘ redefined’ biblical terms.
NO genuine, lasting virtue has come about due to the existence of TWI. It did in fact between ~1967 to ~1972 attract some people who had a desire to serve God, but a critical mass of these people had been witnessed to by non-TWI people such as Jimmy Doop, Steve Heefner, Ted Wise, & Lonnie Frisbee.
These movements were later invaded by avaricious power-hungry Wierwille. Wierwille-TWI essentially stole these people from those simple, grassroots ministries. In significant part due to the presence of Doop, Heefner, Wise, Frisbee & their followers, as well as the exuberance of their unmistakable presence, many of the PFAL classes of this time period generated a great excitement, more so in spite of Wierwille than due to him & to his supposed original “research” (but in actuality it was almost entirely plagiarized).
Certain honest individuals, comprised of the Doop/Heefner/Wise/Frisbee derivatives, as well as many who became involved directly by Wierwille’s PFAL series, were the pure-hearted people in our local areas that created the positive environment that appealed to the transient vulnerabilities of so many of us.
Then TWI, primarily via Wierwille & later Martindale, those despicable wolves in sheep’s clothing, surreptitiously ‘ taught & trained’ us by way of various exploitative programs {via VPW's PFAL series, the WOW program, the Fellowlaborers’ program, the Way Corps & College Division programs, LCM's WAP series, TWI-II, & many other scenarios} which were ALL disguised TWI indoctrination. The proceeds & benefits of these clandestine programs & MLM operations went not to the TWI-claimed beneficiaries, the rank-and-file affiliates of TWI, but rather went to the TWI Board of Trustees & other high level TWI leadership for their own selfish interests.
TWI ‘redefined’ & hence contaminated the supposed 'grace of God' as a hook of vulnerability on the front side, only to later bait & switch it to oppressive hyper-legalism replete with TWI-exit phobia on the far side of this despicable victimization. This oppressive legalism (the supposed ‘teeth’ Wierwille began speaking of around 1967 to 1972) was originally most visible in the Way Corps in the 1970’s, but after the 1989 LCM loyalty demand, & in/after the Fall of 1995, when LCM began his ‘mark & avoid’- enforced extreme obedience demands (among many other abusive & harmful practices), the end result for those of us who in good faith commitment & dedication held out to the bitter end, is that we have essentially nothing to show for our TWI servitude except for the psychological & emotional wounds (damages) with which TWI has so disgracefully left us.
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