Teachings and Ethics of Victor Paul Wierwille

[Catcup]

It's hard for me to post lovingly here, because I find it discusting the way some of you bash around a dead man, with accusations.

And I found it disgusting the way he bashed around my living sister... with more than accusations.

[Catcup]

Yeah, I guess it's a real shame how people speak ill of the dead: the accusations against his character, all the people he supposedly hurt, comparing old wounds. How can you prove he did all the nasty things of which people constantly accuse him? For that matter, maybe what he did was exaggerated, or perhaps maybe never even happened at all. For that matter, maybe he actually did some good. But oh, well, he's dead now.

I guess I'll have to stop teaching about the atrocities of Adolf Hitler when I get to WWII.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Catcup

[justloafing]

and it is not just a dead man that you think we are bashing. We are bashing live ones too. We can't help it if they don't have the nads to come here and defend their actions. They have been called on the carpet but are more than likley afraid to come here and defend their actions. Probably one of the reasons they wont come here is their actions are not defendable.

[Catcup]

Oh, yeah--

We keep rehearsing the evils of what Hitler did in the hopes that no one ever does that to anyone else again. So no one forgets. So no one forgets what circumstances brought him to power, how he abused his power, and the consequences of obedience to unchecked evil and tyranny upon masses of people, and what it took to eliminate the threat of the evil that was ensconced in Germany. To this day, there are people still willing to take up Hitler's cause. To keep the history out there, helps suppress the evil that is still willing to rise again. It takes vigilance and diligence to keep the stories out there. Especially since the elderly survivors and warriors are dropping like flies, and we now have heads of state like the leader of Iran, claiming the Holocaust never happened, and voicing his intent to blow Israel off the map. it is even more important that we continue to remember, so we do not forget.

Never Again.

What we do on this website is perform one of the functions of recording history: to record the lessons, both good and bad, so we can hopefully avoid previous pitfalls. And we identify those still willing to impose their tyranny upon others.

Those of us who post here about what happened to us at the hands of The Way International may not have numbers tattooed on our forearms, but many of us here bear the scars and fingerprints of that organization in our very souls, and we will not be silenced.

To be silent, is to acquiesce to the evil, allow it to hide, and eventually flourish again.

Never Again.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Catcup

[rascal]

Lol thank you John, but please....I am not so far from God and peace as you might imagine....

Being a Christian does not prevent me from being revolted by absolutely reprehensible behavior. I have spoken with more than one woman who was destroyed while yet a teenager by these vile men....God doesn`t do this...nor do Godly men with the excuse that this is the grace administration.

These girls were given the same promises of lifes answeres WE were .....power for abundant living....victory in any situation....more than a conquerer...but instead of fellowship and teaching and nurture....they were simply viewed as objects to be used and thrown out like so much garbage.....

It was more than just attempted fornication and rape John... Some of these women...these still teenaged girls ....Two of them that I have personally communicated with.....were savagely thrown out of the ministry and alienated from their family members and friends by dire warnings given from vp and lcm of them being posessed.........John it takes a very special kind of orneriness to do something so cruel.

These girls had no one to turn to by the time vp was done savaging their reputations to cover his bu tt ...... when they didn`t play along ..and THEY were the lucky ones.

Please look at what this man did honestly and openly....if he were anybody other than the keeper of the keys to your truths....you would no doubt be deeply offended and disgusted as well.

I WAS able to enjoy roa ... and so many many things in twi because of my naievety ....the advanced class at emporia....sound out 84 ...fabulous memorable times ALL....but but BUT could I have ...had I KNOWN what vp and lcm were doing at that very same time to my sisters?

Could I have believed that God was guiding men who were capable of not only such sinfull behavior but the outright cruelty as well?

Would I have trusted them or their teachings or their ministry had I known about their inner circle teachings ...about the sex and the drugs?

I don`t think so.

You cannot compartmentalise the evil to just one area....and just say that all of the rest of the stuff he did was ok....

You want to venerate these men as Godly .... I will continue to dispute this as I believe that their actions line them up instead as false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing seeking whom they may devour...only worried about filling their own bellies....and as such any of their doctrine is suspect.

There is so much more going on here then *bashing dead men*

[oldiesman]

The bottom line here is had VPW or LCM actually performed signs , miracles, and wonders on par with JC then I would have gladly considered thanking them. But they had no fruit certainly as it related to healing.

Besides, the biblical account is discussing JC. Not VPW or LCM so for them to place themselves in the company of JC is a bit odd. I've never known VPW or LCM to have healed anyone of anything significant let alone leprosy or any other serious disease. Sure. I've heard the stories of *miraculous" healings that involved "deliverance" from sore throats, the sniffles, a headach, or an upset stomach but that is, even if it really happened, is a far cry from the miracles described in the bible. The Way cheapened the concept of "miracle" and it seems to me that people bought it. If your junky car started and got you to twig then it was a "miracle". broke down it was because you were "out of fellowship".

The greatest of all miracles is the new birth, and I certainly think that happened in twi, as a result of VP's & many others' efforts in running twigs, teaching pfal, and so forth; ... efforts that God appreciates and that glorifies Him.

But I'd be interested to know who among us in our day and time performs signs miracles & wonders like Jesus. And if so, are we to just follow this person(s), and toss out everything else because of lack thereof?

I haven't been a part of twi for 14 years, but I am still thankful for having heard what VP and others taught, regardless of their imperfections. People are full of flaws...and don't kid yourself either, women are very good at saying yes or no. I held on to that which was good in twi, and if others get HONEST, I'm sure they could find some good too. I don't care where he got some info. from, or if he got his doctorate from Pike's peak...HE knew more of the Bible than anyone I have ever known, and made it available for me to understand, where it actually made sense! ...

Thanks for your comments freeindeed. I feel the same.

[oldiesman]

What we do on this website is perform one of the functions of recording history: to record the lessons, both good and bad, so we can hopefully avoid previous pitfalls. And we identify those still willing to impose their tyranny upon others.

That's fine.

Yes, let's talk about the history, both good and bad.

But that is different from what was said earlier: "there is no baby, toss out the dirty soup".

[justloafing]

But that is different from what was said earlier: "there is no baby, toss out the dirty soup".

That's a great statement oldies. TWI is filthy at the top IMO

Throw that trash out and start anew. Then maybe you will have a baby in the bath water. There is nothing there now but poopy water. :blink:

[Catcup]

That's fine.

Yes, let's talk about the history, both good and bad.

But that is different from what was said earlier: "there is no baby, toss out the dirty soup".

That my dear, is my opinion, to which I am entitled, and your mileage may vary.

Which brings us full circle back to the original purpose of the thread.

“…it is the moral choices and evaluations that we make in everyday practical living that furnish the data on which ethicists construct theories and against which they finally test them. If ethicists are deficient in moral insight or have warped insights, it seems inevitable that, as a result, their theories will wander from the truth.”

In light of that statement and Wierwille's track record, I do not believe Victor Paul Wierwille has a moral or ethical leg to stand on.

[oldiesman]

In that case, my response would be that morality can be mutable.

If we look at Wierwille's track record, it contained both good and evil.

It happens.

Ask Solomon.

[Catcup]

Wierwille was no Solomon, nor did he live in that geographical area or time period.

But he loved to pretend he did.

[oldiesman]

I would agree, Wierwille was no Solomon.

Solomon did far more evil.

[jkboehme]

Per catcup:

In light of that statement and Wierwille's track record, I do not believe Victor Paul Wierwille has a moral or ethical leg to stand on.

With the mathematical exactness of esoteric arithmosophy and alchemical scientific precision of gnostic dualism, that LEG upon which VPW stood somewhat erect before the anticipated bema, like a hand in a (love)glove, was the meager member of his {quasi-spiritual} 'middle man,' dangling, as it were, most precipitously from the patriarchal mogfart, with a view and even a further beaver's eye view to the perfuncting of the supine estrogenic epistles……….

[/size]

I just had to say it before therightreverendtommietuttledid.

Edited January 26, 2006 by jkboehme

[Nottawayfer]

Kewl avatar jkboehme! I likee!!

[excathedra]

that one i could read jk ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

anyway these kind of discussions get me tired

The greatest of all miracles is the new birth, and I certainly think that happened in twi, as a result of VP's & many others' efforts in running twigs, teaching pfal, and so forth; ... efforts that God appreciates and that glorifies Him.

i don't know if i know what god appreciates or what glorifies him

i was already a christian when i got into the way. so i wonder what my great lesson from god was

you know, like being taught how to be loved (body wise) instead of molested (childhood wise) (puke spit and all that kind of stuff) and wierwille is the one who said that to me

jesus christ i was only a few years older really than my childhood

as i like to say, how dare he

and if that's god's take, how dare he too

[WordWolf]

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]

Throwing stones...where will most of these posters be years from now...still throwing stones at VP?

[still living my life, and still dispelling illusions if anyone pretends vpw or twi was more

than it really was.]

NEWSFLASH: VP never said he was perfect, neither are ANY of you.

[He never SAID it, but he spent a lot of time inflating his image, putting forth

PERSONALLY that he taught truths hidden since the Pentecost bunch

(although it all came from other writers)

and that he was THE Teacher,

and that he never got sick A DAY IN HIS LIFE

and that he was the INVENTOR OF THE HOOK SHOT

and that he gave up professional careers in business and music

and that his eye cancer was only because he assembled the pfal class

and that's just off the top of my head.

As for me, I NEVER made such claims.]

I wholeheartedly agree with Oldiesman and Johniam, but on this board we appear to be the minority.

[You're entitled to your opinion-even an uninformed opinion.]

They must only stay on this board to help people,

[What a noble and just profession it is, to defend vpw against those who

expose his felonies...]

cause much of the posting here is a bunch of crap, and a waste of time to read. I'm just calling it as I see it.

[Don't like the menu, don't eat in the diner.]

It's hard for me to post lovingly here, because I find it discusting the way some of you bash around a dead man, with accusations.

[He just happens to be dead now. When he was alive, it was not "available" to

assemble even a partial list of his high crimes and misdemeanors.

Sadly, his addictions to his vices killed him long before WE caught up to him.

Or, do you still think his cause of death was "stopped believing"?

If we were discussing the plagiarisms and rapes of Herbert Armstrong as

opposed to the plagiarisms and rapes of Victor Paul Wierwille

(both of whom are dead, and committed evil in God's name when alive),

would these posts be easier to read? Of course they would.

You object to the shattering of the illusion-the lies you were told and believed

were lies THEN but you didn't know it. As for NOW, you know it and have

difficulty accepting it. Now THAT's a waste.]

I haven't been a part of twi for 14 years, but I am still thankful for having heard what VP and others taught, regardless of their imperfections.

[so, are you saying that these "imperfections"/FELONIES were EXCUSABLE

because you learned some good stuff? Ignore the rapes because you learned to

speak in tongues?]

People are full of flaws...and don't kid yourself either, women are very good at saying yes or no.

[Those that are drugged unconscious, to this day, or are given liquor first,

STILL have some difficulty saying yes, no, or anything ELSE in a language.]

I held on to that which was good in twi, and if others get HONEST, I'm sure they could find some good too.

[so, the FELONIES should be excused because you speak in tongues?]

I don't care where he got some info. from,

[You don't, but plagiarism is a crime in the US, and it's easily avoidable-

unless you want to deceive your audience into believing it's YOUR work.

It's morally wrong, and legally actionable.]

or if he got his doctorate from Pike's peak...

[His area of study was HOMILETICS,

not "Bible languages", and not "Church history",

which is why he made so many mistakes with BOTH subjects.]

HE knew more of the Bible than anyone I have ever known,

[He memorized the work of Christians who knew "more than you've ever known",

and claimed it was all HIM, and other Christians were deficient.

And if you STILL don't know knowledgeable Christians,

you should get OUT more. With the internet, they are easier to find,

and the "knowledge" is ALSO.

(That's one reason we've caught so much of vpw's plagiarism.)]

and made it available for me to understand, where it actually made sense!

[it was already available for you to understand to where it actually made sense.

You just didn't know where to find it. Rather than assist with that, vpw took it,

hid the origins, and slapped his label on the thing.

Ever see the movie "the Road to Wellville"? There's a scene where one company's

shipment of cornflakes (the food, not the religious organization members)

is stopped, the boxes are trashed, their contents are taken and reboxed with a

new box and different company name. The food was IDENTICAL, the LABEL

was the only difference. And nobody has difficulty understanding that this was

wrong.]

This board is dominated mostly by the same posters and VP haters.

["Same" as what?]

If anyone knows of a board where exwayers aren't wondering if the dead are alive now, and if God's word is his will, PLEASE let me know privately.

[A lot of us here don't have issues with those doctrines. SOME of us DO,

and they are entitled to form their own opinions, have discussions, and

DISAGREE. As for myself, I found one such discussion STRENGTHENED

a specific belief I had which matched something taught in twi.

See, I put the doctrine to the proof-took it to the proving grounds,

drove it around-and it held up nicely.

Doesn't mean ALL his doctrine holds up when tested.

Ever put his doctrines to the test? Bet you haven't-not a FAIR test....

If you want a board ONLY composed of ex-twi who COMPLETELY agree

with what vpw taught, you could always start your own.

After all, even the CURRENT twi members aren't allowed to run

such a board....]

[YOU may prefer unhappy memories die out, you may prefer that people forget,

YOU may prefer silence to the suffering of vpw's victims,

but others hold a different view.]

[Belle]

...and don't kid yourself either, women are very good at saying yes or no. I held on to that which was good in twi, and if others get HONEST, I'm sure they could find some good too. I don't care where he got some info. from, or if he got his doctorate from Pike's peak...HE knew more of the Bible than anyone I have ever known

I highly recommend that you, OM, Johniam and Allan could all start your own TWIt fellowship. Obviously there's nothing to see here. Since you already know everything and are fully persuaded in your beliefs, then, I can see why you would be less tolerant of those who were abused or questioning the teachings of vee pee. Patience? bah! Not necessary when you just blindly believe everything you're taught.

CES, CFF and other offshoots - especially Geer's still worship vee pee and what he taught (for the most part), perhaps you'd be happier with one of those organizations.