So if they're true, they should STILL be true if arrived at independently of Wierwille.
No real argument here.
For instance, in an example about SIT, if one dislikes VP so much that they can't trust his books anymore, one may get the truth about SIT from The Gift of the Holy Spirit by J.E. Stiles. He led thousands into speaking in tongues.
I just don't see the point of tossing out RHST, when it communicates the same basic ideas and truths from J.E. Stiles book.
I'll never forget session 12. Especially when he asked everybody to stand and breathe deeply. There was a powerful presence in the room...EVERY SINGLE TIME! If it was just my first class or just during the first year or 2 after taking it, then maybe I'd consider questioning it, but EVERY TIME I was in a 12th session it was there, didn't matter the size of the class or who ran it. I refuse to deny that this ever happened. Is it possible that some of you actually DID make an idol out of VP and so for YOU it is necessary to rebuild everything just to get the idolatry out of your system?
I never worshipped the guy, just dug his ministry.
Session 12 Powerfull? Seemed to me the vast majority of people taking the classes we ran were extremely uncomfortable to be put on the spot like that....excellor session even more so....
I agree with excathedra....it seemed to me like nothing more than a lot of emotional hype.
For instance, in an example about SIT, if one dislikes VP so much that they can't trust his books anymore, one may get the truth about SIT from The Gift of the Holy Spirit by J.E. Stiles. He led thousands into speaking in tongues.
And that was the point I was trying to make on page one.
The knowledge is/has been out there, regardless of docvic. Others with a *proven track record* as far as a "ministry" goes (without falling into the definitiion of a *cult*), have taught something valid and worth hanging onto.
To me (imo) -- docvic's ethics were reprehensible. That does not detract from the fact that some of the stuff he taught was right on. It does, however, show to me that he was using it for his own benefit. The fact that he was using it to his own benefit doesn't denegrate the Word, it denigrated the man teaching it.
Personally -- after having read other authors on other subjects -- I have radically revised my definition of Interpretation of Tongues, and the meaning of Hell (to name two things).
I'm always willing to look at new ideas. Docvic had it all assembled in a neat package, so that made it easier for me (and others) at first. That *neat package* had some holes in it, as I discovered later on, but some of that package had substance (garnered from others), so it wasn't the package that I discarded wholeheartedly.
And I am extremely loathe to having my braincells morphed into hating someone who took part in helping me and others understand God better.
Discarding VP, to me, is like somebody helping me out with something, and the thanks I give is giving him/her a kick in the teeth.
Not to mention the fact that Victor is a brother in Christ. You don't discard a brother in Christ. God hasn't discarded him.
Did Jesus discard Saul of Tarsus when he was murdering Christians? Jesus appeared to Saul as Saul was about to murder some more. Murder them. Sauls actions were reprehensible, worse than Victor Paul Wierwille's; ... but that didn't make Jesus discard him, did it?
Why didn't Jesus and God simply move onto someone else? Look, surely they could have found someone to communicate truth who wasn't a murderer? Think of all the families that Saul destroyed. Wasn't God and Jesus big enough to have found someone else?
Folks, the simple fact is, God worked through and with Victor Paul Wierwille to communicate biblical truths, sins and all, and many folks got blessed because of God allowing this to occur.
Those who try to spin it otherwise, well go right ahead, but you aren't fooling me.
Yeah but I`ll bet that your attitude would be entirely different if after being *helped* you were then raped by the person whom had won your gratitude and trust.....but hey as long as it was somebody else whom suffered from the ravages of the villian ....it is acceptable <_<
Sorry I but I DON`T think that God used a criminal to represent him who then raped and robbed those whom he was to assist....
Sounds more like the actions listed in the scriptures of a false prophet to me.....but then again I understand why it is necessary to want to believe that one hasn`t been decieved their entire lives either....the alternative is devistating.
God used a murderer, Saul of Tarsus, to represent him.
Oldies, the Bible never says anything about Saul of Tarsus being a murderer. Rather, it's pretty clear that he was not. What he was, was a devout (though misled, if the New Testament is to be believed) Jew, who zealously acted upon what he believed to be God's law (God's Word, if you prefer). There's plenty of justification in the Old Textament for his actions against Christians. There's no justification anywhere in the Bible for Wierwille's.
To call Saul of Tarsus a murderer indicates to me an almost complete lack of understanding of the message of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments.
The bottom line here is had VPW or LCM actually performed signs , miracles, and wonders on par with JC then I would have gladly considered thanking them. But they had no fruit certainly as it related to healing.
Besides, the biblical account is discussing JC. Not VPW or LCM so for them to place themselves in the company of JC is a bit odd. I've never known VPW or LCM to have healed anyone of anything significant let alone leprosy or any other serious disease. Sure. I've heard the stories of *miraculous" healings that involved "deliverance" from sore throats, the sniffles, a headach, or an upset stomach but that is, even if it really happened, is a far cry from the miracles described in the bible. The Way cheapened the concept of "miracle" and it seems to me that people bought it. If your junky car started and got you to twig then it was a "miracle". broke down it was because you were "out of fellowship".
Throwing stones...where will most of these posters be years from now...still throwing stones at VP? NEWSFLASH: VP never said he was perfect, neither are ANY of you. I wholeheartedly agree with Oldiesman and Johniam, but on this board we appear to be the minority. They must only stay on this board to help people, cause much of the posting here is a bunch of crap, and a waste of time to read. I'm just calling it as I see it. It's hard for me to post lovingly here, because I find it discusting the way some of you bash around a dead man, with accusations.
I haven't been a part of twi for 14 years, but I am still thankful for having heard what VP and others taught, regardless of their imperfections. People are full of flaws...and don't kid yourself either, women are very good at saying yes or no. I held on to that which was good in twi, and if others get HONEST, I'm sure they could find some good too. I don't care where he got some info. from, or if he got his doctorate from Pike's peak...HE knew more of the Bible than anyone I have ever known, and made it available for me to understand, where it actually made sense! This board is dominated mostly by the same posters and VP haters. If anyone knows of a board where exwayers aren't wondering if the dead are alive now, and if God's word is his will, :unsure: PLEASE let me know privately.
Well freeindeed. I respect how you feel but respect how others feel too. To me leadership in twi is wolves in sheep clothing. Yep they taught some good but a lot of bad too. Treated people bad and god forbid if you were in the inner circle. This is to expose twi is not the holy vesture that it apperars to be. No one man or women is perfect except JC. It was the top leadership that said to hell with what the bible said and practiced their own doctrine.
It was them that ruined thousands of peoples lives either phyisacally or spirtually for their (leadership) own well being. They did not care about you or how much you got out of their classes. They cared that you where a "yes" person and that you gave your money to them.
The reason I am here is to steer anyone away from twi because of what I have seen in twi and what I have heard happened while I have been out of twi. There is absolutly no reason to put anyone in harms way if I can help it. How much more loving can you get?
I believe there is a very slight chance twi started out with the right goal in mind but if that was ever the goal it lasted a very short time before the top leadership went right to work in the devils workshop with smiles on their faces.
Session 12 Powerfull? Seemed to me the vast majority of people taking the classes we ran were extremely uncomfortable to be put on the spot like that....excellor session even more so....
I agree with excathedra....it seemed to me like nothing more than a lot of emotional hype.
Soooo true! I wanted to bolt out the door! That's the only thought that was in my head at the time. I've never felt that way since. Weird. Now SIT doesn't mean anything to me. I prefer praying with my understanting.
I believe there is a very slight chance twi started out with the right goal in mind but if that was ever the goal it lasted a very short time before the top leadership went right to work in the devils workshop with smiles on their faces.
Lol freeindeed, Welcome to greasespot ....I suppose I will try not to allow your negativity concerning our negativity to offend me as much as we have obviously offended you :)
Rascal, sometimes your posts are like a cry for help. Recently you have posted of positive TWI experiences (the ROA memories thread) and positive current stuff (the exceedingly abundantly above all you could ask or think thread).....yet you struggle. For all the positives you seem to gravitate toward despair. As though because of VPW and his evil, all positives are null and void. You were duped; that's all that matters. Like you're gonna get up there and God will look at you and say, "What? Eternal rewards? You? Waw haw haw!" No no no! Stop that.
You're like my cat. His name is Ngurng. He got 'deboned' a few years ago, but he keeps his own hours. Even in winter he stays out all night half the time. But when I get up and come into the kitchen, he's ready to come in and I pick him up and vigorously massage first his lower back, then up to the middle. After 30 seconds or so he's purring at a good clip. Then I let him eat.
God will do this....for YOUUUUUU! Seriously, you deserve an answer of PEACE. Don't EVER think you don't deserve to be peaceful, OK?
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oldiesman
No real argument here.
For instance, in an example about SIT, if one dislikes VP so much that they can't trust his books anymore, one may get the truth about SIT from The Gift of the Holy Spirit by J.E. Stiles. He led thousands into speaking in tongues.
I just don't see the point of tossing out RHST, when it communicates the same basic ideas and truths from J.E. Stiles book.
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Raf
Often in the very same words. :)
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bliss
...........................................but you still have to PROVE IT before you'll HOLD ONTO IT!
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excathedra
yes, d. he's the one
he took a lot of time emailing me and posting for me and with me
he has helped me so much in troubled times
i'm very very thankful for that wonderful guy
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johniam
I'll never forget session 12. Especially when he asked everybody to stand and breathe deeply. There was a powerful presence in the room...EVERY SINGLE TIME! If it was just my first class or just during the first year or 2 after taking it, then maybe I'd consider questioning it, but EVERY TIME I was in a 12th session it was there, didn't matter the size of the class or who ran it. I refuse to deny that this ever happened. Is it possible that some of you actually DID make an idol out of VP and so for YOU it is necessary to rebuild everything just to get the idolatry out of your system?
I never worshipped the guy, just dug his ministry.
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excathedra
i'm not sure, johnnyam
i think possibly session 12 was an emotional hype
i also saw people who didn't "do it" and were crying and really pressured.....
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rascal
Session 12 Powerfull? Seemed to me the vast majority of people taking the classes we ran were extremely uncomfortable to be put on the spot like that....excellor session even more so....
I agree with excathedra....it seemed to me like nothing more than a lot of emotional hype.
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dmiller
And that was the point I was trying to make on page one.
The knowledge is/has been out there, regardless of docvic. Others with a *proven track record* as far as a "ministry" goes (without falling into the definitiion of a *cult*), have taught something valid and worth hanging onto.
To me (imo) -- docvic's ethics were reprehensible. That does not detract from the fact that some of the stuff he taught was right on. It does, however, show to me that he was using it for his own benefit. The fact that he was using it to his own benefit doesn't denegrate the Word, it denigrated the man teaching it.
Personally -- after having read other authors on other subjects -- I have radically revised my definition of Interpretation of Tongues, and the meaning of Hell (to name two things).
I'm always willing to look at new ideas. Docvic had it all assembled in a neat package, so that made it easier for me (and others) at first. That *neat package* had some holes in it, as I discovered later on, but some of that package had substance (garnered from others), so it wasn't the package that I discarded wholeheartedly.
It was the Teacher.
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oldiesman
I haven't discarded the teacher. Sorry.
And I am extremely loathe to having my braincells morphed into hating someone who took part in helping me and others understand God better.
Discarding VP, to me, is like somebody helping me out with something, and the thanks I give is giving him/her a kick in the teeth.
Not to mention the fact that Victor is a brother in Christ. You don't discard a brother in Christ. God hasn't discarded him.
Did Jesus discard Saul of Tarsus when he was murdering Christians? Jesus appeared to Saul as Saul was about to murder some more. Murder them. Sauls actions were reprehensible, worse than Victor Paul Wierwille's; ... but that didn't make Jesus discard him, did it?
Why didn't Jesus and God simply move onto someone else? Look, surely they could have found someone to communicate truth who wasn't a murderer? Think of all the families that Saul destroyed. Wasn't God and Jesus big enough to have found someone else?
Folks, the simple fact is, God worked through and with Victor Paul Wierwille to communicate biblical truths, sins and all, and many folks got blessed because of God allowing this to occur.
Those who try to spin it otherwise, well go right ahead, but you aren't fooling me.
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Raf
I agree with you, Oldiesman. We're not the ones fooling you.
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rascal
:lol:
Yeah but I`ll bet that your attitude would be entirely different if after being *helped* you were then raped by the person whom had won your gratitude and trust.....but hey as long as it was somebody else whom suffered from the ravages of the villian ....it is acceptable <_<
Sorry I but I DON`T think that God used a criminal to represent him who then raped and robbed those whom he was to assist....
Sounds more like the actions listed in the scriptures of a false prophet to me.....but then again I understand why it is necessary to want to believe that one hasn`t been decieved their entire lives either....the alternative is devistating.
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oldiesman
Rascal didn't you read what I just wrote?
God used a murderer, Saul of Tarsus, to represent him.
Murder is worse than rape.
Surely God could have found someone else to represent him?
Jesus even personally appeared to him as he was going to murder some more.
You mean to tell me, God as big as He is, couldn't find someone else to represent Him?
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Abigail
ah but did Paul commit murder before or AFTER he met Jesus and received salvation?
in comparison/contrast
Did VPW commit rape before or AFTER he was given his "ministry"?
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oldiesman
What about King Solomon?
God gives revelation to King Solomon, which is good stuff.
Later on in life though, Solomon engages in some of the most grotesque reprehensible idolatry that would make your hair curl.
Murdering innocent babies.... that's a lot worse than anything our Victor Paul Wierwille ever did.
God knew all this, yet He still chose to work with Solomon in his earlier years...
And so do you throw out all of Solomon's writings because of his reprehensible behavior?
Why did Jesus and God even bother with dealing with a murderer, that is my question...
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Raf
Finally! A better analogy than David or Paul!
Solomon's writings, if I am not mistaken, preceded his reprehensible behavior.
But it is a much better analogy.
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LG
Oldies, the Bible never says anything about Saul of Tarsus being a murderer. Rather, it's pretty clear that he was not. What he was, was a devout (though misled, if the New Testament is to be believed) Jew, who zealously acted upon what he believed to be God's law (God's Word, if you prefer). There's plenty of justification in the Old Textament for his actions against Christians. There's no justification anywhere in the Bible for Wierwille's.
To call Saul of Tarsus a murderer indicates to me an almost complete lack of understanding of the message of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments.
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oldiesman
Right. He was so justified, that Jesus Himself had to make a personal appearance, to get him to knock it off.
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diazbro
The bottom line here is had VPW or LCM actually performed signs , miracles, and wonders on par with JC then I would have gladly considered thanking them. But they had no fruit certainly as it related to healing.
Besides, the biblical account is discussing JC. Not VPW or LCM so for them to place themselves in the company of JC is a bit odd. I've never known VPW or LCM to have healed anyone of anything significant let alone leprosy or any other serious disease. Sure. I've heard the stories of *miraculous" healings that involved "deliverance" from sore throats, the sniffles, a headach, or an upset stomach but that is, even if it really happened, is a far cry from the miracles described in the bible. The Way cheapened the concept of "miracle" and it seems to me that people bought it. If your junky car started and got you to twig then it was a "miracle". broke down it was because you were "out of fellowship".
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freeindeed
I haven't been a part of twi for 14 years, but I am still thankful for having heard what VP and others taught, regardless of their imperfections. People are full of flaws...and don't kid yourself either, women are very good at saying yes or no. I held on to that which was good in twi, and if others get HONEST, I'm sure they could find some good too. I don't care where he got some info. from, or if he got his doctorate from Pike's peak...HE knew more of the Bible than anyone I have ever known, and made it available for me to understand, where it actually made sense! This board is dominated mostly by the same posters and VP haters. If anyone knows of a board where exwayers aren't wondering if the dead are alive now, and if God's word is his will, :unsure: PLEASE let me know privately.
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excathedra
freeindeed, my life is not a piece of crap or a waste of time
you find it hard to lovingly post here ? i don't
and i don't mean that condescendingly sp? or like i'm better or know it all
i only know what the man did to me, was far far worse than what he did for me
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justloafing
Well freeindeed. I respect how you feel but respect how others feel too. To me leadership in twi is wolves in sheep clothing. Yep they taught some good but a lot of bad too. Treated people bad and god forbid if you were in the inner circle. This is to expose twi is not the holy vesture that it apperars to be. No one man or women is perfect except JC. It was the top leadership that said to hell with what the bible said and practiced their own doctrine.
It was them that ruined thousands of peoples lives either phyisacally or spirtually for their (leadership) own well being. They did not care about you or how much you got out of their classes. They cared that you where a "yes" person and that you gave your money to them.
The reason I am here is to steer anyone away from twi because of what I have seen in twi and what I have heard happened while I have been out of twi. There is absolutly no reason to put anyone in harms way if I can help it. How much more loving can you get?
I believe there is a very slight chance twi started out with the right goal in mind but if that was ever the goal it lasted a very short time before the top leadership went right to work in the devils workshop with smiles on their faces.
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Nottawayfer
Soooo true! I wanted to bolt out the door! That's the only thought that was in my head at the time. I've never felt that way since. Weird. Now SIT doesn't mean anything to me. I prefer praying with my understanting.
I agree wholeheartedly.
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rascal
Lol freeindeed, Welcome to greasespot ....I suppose I will try not to allow your negativity concerning our negativity to offend me as much as we have obviously offended you :)
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johniam
Rascal, sometimes your posts are like a cry for help. Recently you have posted of positive TWI experiences (the ROA memories thread) and positive current stuff (the exceedingly abundantly above all you could ask or think thread).....yet you struggle. For all the positives you seem to gravitate toward despair. As though because of VPW and his evil, all positives are null and void. You were duped; that's all that matters. Like you're gonna get up there and God will look at you and say, "What? Eternal rewards? You? Waw haw haw!" No no no! Stop that.
You're like my cat. His name is Ngurng. He got 'deboned' a few years ago, but he keeps his own hours. Even in winter he stays out all night half the time. But when I get up and come into the kitchen, he's ready to come in and I pick him up and vigorously massage first his lower back, then up to the middle. After 30 seconds or so he's purring at a good clip. Then I let him eat.
God will do this....for YOUUUUUU! Seriously, you deserve an answer of PEACE. Don't EVER think you don't deserve to be peaceful, OK?
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