That is a very good point catcup....How could we possibly trust a man to honestly teach us of God and christian values who was entirely devoid of morality and ethics......some of the very cornerstones of Christianity.
If we can not trust him in that which is least...how the heck could we ever trust him to honestly represent the scriptures and God?
Everything he taught is suspect of contamination imo.
Very good and nice. Thanks for posting that, Catcup.
They did skew so much that they tried to teach us about etichs and morals.
Remember the teaching on the man who picked up the man who had been robbed and beaten? The kind man took him to a place to stay and paid for the man to stay there and get help and said he would return to settle any additional charges incurred. That teaching wasn't used to remind us to do good unto ALL men. It was used to teach us how awful the Catholics were and how they would have walked past that man when he was on the side of the road. I actually only heard this teaching once that I can recall. It's not surprising, there's only so much you can twist out of that one.
The teachings about "doing good unto all men BUT ESPECIALLY them who are of the household of faith" - that household being TWI. The "good unto all men" was really glossed over and taught that they got the leftovers IF there was anything left over after taking care of other TWIts. And we know there was nothing left over after trying to jump through all the TWIt hoops.
We were taught to give all our money to TWI and not to "designer causes". Forget the "all men" - they don't deserve our spit!
One of the things I started doing shortly before leaving was to pay for a few cars behind me on the toll booth. I left $20 anonymously on the desk of a co-worker who was going through a really rough divorce. I put everyone's newspaper up by their door when I was out walking my dog in the mornings. Little things - anonymous things - nice things. It made my day to do it and it started melting the ice cold heart that had become hard as granite while adhering to TWI teachings.
vee pee and lcm didn't have any ethics or morals, so naturally they would see what lined up with their warped brains when reading scriptures. Pity we actually listened to those teachings and emulated them.
For that very reason --that a person with no moral compass will not lead anyone to the truth, but eventually lead to a warped ethical basis for life-- hanging on to the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille is not "holding to the good." It is clinging to the vestiges of a man without a moral compass.
We are not talking here about a man with simple minor flaws that bear overlooking. We are talking about a man who admittedly knew better, and then chose to do evil anyway, repeatedly. Despite the consequences to others. It is no surprise his ethics led to doctrines that permitted gutstripping innocent people, using them, and then tossing them away like so much trash.
There is no baby, toss out that dirty soup, clean the inside of those dirty pots and pans and start from scratch, folks.
For that very reason --that a person with no moral compass will not lead anyone to the truth, but eventually lead to a warped ethical basis for life-- hanging on to the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille is not "holding to the good." It is clinging to the vestiges of a man without a moral compass.
THAT ought to be matted, framed and hung up in a prominant place here for all to see whohave ever been associated with twi....
Better yet...a bill board....
This man and his teachings have led so many of us astray......
I know there are those of us who met some good people and learned some good things in TWI. But clinging to every shred of doctrine that ever fell out of this man's mouth like it came from the very lips of God Almighty will tend toward a warped ethical outlook.
If you toss it out and re evaluate your life, if you re evaluate what you believed, if you re examine the scriptures from other points of view, I belive what was true will come back to you. You will be better off for having taken out the trash.
We are not talking here about a man with simple minor flaws that bear overlooking. We are talking about a man who admittedly knew better, and then chose to do evil anyway, repeatedly. Despite the consequences to others. It is no surprise his ethics led to doctrines that permitted gutstripping innocent people, using them, and then tossing them away like so much trash.
Also.......we are talking about a man who, supposedly, immersed himself in the scriptures for decades and was self-proclaimed to be "the teacher."
Heck......he was 51 years old when piffle was filmed and the last 17 years of his life were filled with adultery, scandal, venomous anger, covetousness, idolatry, etc. Many of those who closely served him in the 70s, early 80s........the Ambassador One pilot, Jxhn Rxce and a couple of veepee's aides left him....... and exited twi.
On 3 separate occasions......I personally witnessed a deep-seated, venomous anger from Wierwille that was tantamount of soul-stripping every last shred of one's dignity. Each of these three individuals suffered a public, verbal lashing that was completely beyond the scope of "reproof." These incidents incited fear and strict compliance to the mog's agenda and "attitude towards the word." Narcissism would be the most apt description of the behavior of wierwille.
Wierwille's moral compass went awry when it no longer pivoted on the life and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, having forsaken his "north star".....wierwille lost "his way" on the vast oceans of doubt and seas of speculation.
“…it is the moral choices and evaluations that we make in everyday practical living that furnish the data on which ethicists construct theories and against which they finally test them. If ethicists are deficient in moral insight or have warped insights, it seems inevitable that, as a result, their theories will wander from the truth.”
For that very reason --that a person with no moral compass will not lead anyone to the truth, but eventually lead to a warped ethical basis for life-- hanging on to the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille is not "holding to the good." It is clinging to the vestiges of a man without a moral compass.
Also, it a matter of clinging to VPW's plagiarized Hermetic esotericism and Gnostic dualism that is so prevalent in TWI teaching. It is not a matter of there being anything intrinsically 'wrong' about these belief systems, because there are not. The issue is that VPW lied about his sources and tried to present a Biblically veneered esotericism and gnosticism as "the 'Word' as it has not been known since the first century..."
Quote by jkboehm: "On 3 separate occasions......I personally witnessed a deep-seated, venomous anger from Wierwille that was tantamount of soul-stripping every last shred of one's dignity. Each of these three individuals suffered a public, verbal lashing that was completely beyond the scope of "reproof." These incidents incited fear and strict compliance to the mog's agenda and "attitude towards the word." Narcissism would be the most apt description of the behavior of wierwille."
Venomous anger which we know has been titled "righteous anger". It's really sad and sick that an organization which calls itself "Christian" did/does this kind of crap. We HAD to be brainwashed to think we could stick around after that kind of stuff. Why would we stick around otherwise?
For that very reason --that a person with no moral compass will not lead anyone to the truth,
I think that is what the parable of the bad tree bearing bad fruit and the good tree bearing good fruit was all about.
It's not that we can't do good if we do bad--Because we can --It's if we consistently choose the bad knowing it is bad that that eventually creates the inability to do good
It's not that we can't do good if we do bad--Because we can --It's if we consistently choose the bad knowing it is bad that that eventually creates the inability to do good
Absolutely. There is not a perfect person on the face of the earth. Everyone makes mistakes. However, as Maya Angelou frequently says... "When you know better, you do better."
It is knowing better, yet continuing to perform in a perverse manner and attempting to scripturally justify it, that sets this man and his teachings apart as unworthy of being held up as models of Christian behavior and ethics.
there's this really nice guy, i think his name is david reed. he teaches at fordham university i believe. he has posted something that has always made sense to me. if you don't genuinely live what you're preaching, you're suspect.
In hindsight, the "ethics" of Wierwille stand out in my mind as being totally self centered. It was always about him...He had to be the center of attention at all times.
He twisted the bible to meet his own ends and his actions showed no regard for others...
He passed off the work of others as his own and his adultrous and drunken lifestyle provokes only contempt from me today.
The teachings and ethics of Victor Paul Wierwille?...
...If Wierwille DOES make it to heaven, he will be cleaning toilets.
There is no baby, toss out that dirty soup, clean the inside of those dirty pots and pans and start from scratch, folks.
I don't see anything in scripture or, as a general matter of good policy, tossing out biblical truths one has learned and retained for years, because the communicator of those truths was flawed and unethical.
The bible says we are to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good". That means if we learned truths from Victor Paul Wierwille, or L. Craig Martindale, Rosalie F. Rivenbark, we hold fast to them, irrespective of their screwups, or even of their good works!
"Prove All Things, Hold Fast To That Which Is Good"
I've been speaking in tongues for over 30 years now, a truth I learned from VP. I still speak in tongues much, and it does much good in my life. Spiritual edification, strenthening with might in the inner man, rest to the soul, praying for folks, even for those who may not deserve or warrant prayer.
SIT is a proven truth in my life, something I cannot disgard, because it WORKs...
Some other truths are: .... knowing one's sonship rights; salvation by grace; complete in Him...
Golly, toss all those goodies out, and more? Not me.
The bible says we are to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good". That means if we learned truths from Victor Paul Wierwille, or L. Craig Martindale, Rosalie F. Rivenbark, we hold fast to them, irrespective of their screwups, or even of their good works!
"Prove All Things, Hold Fast To That Which Is Good"
How do we know what is the TRUTH Oldies?
That is the point Oldies, PROVE IT! Most don't know what was/is/is not truth, so we have to start over!
IF a LITTLE or ALL was true what Doc Vic/LCM taught, then, when we PROVE it, we will HOLD TO THE GOOD!
(at least I will)
But right now, I have to check ALL that I was taught first.
How did you know about NOT agreeing with the TITHE unless you re-evaluated it, proved it?
You came to other conclusions, therefore, YOU DID NOT HOLD ONTO THAT, to you it was NOT GOOD.
In hindsight, the "ethics" of Wierwille stand out in my mind as being totally self centered. It was always about him...He had to be the center of attention at all times.
He twisted the bible to meet his own ends and his actions showed no regard for others...
He passed off the work of others as his own and his adultrous and drunken lifestyle provokes only contempt from me today.
The teachings and ethics of Victor Paul Wierwille?...
...If Wierwille DOES make it to heaven, he will be cleaning toilets.
don't you know that cleaning toilets is a great blessing?almost like having one of those 7 or was it 8 crowns
I go to a sunday school class right now and "nodody CLAPS" for the teachers.
It is really refreshing.
No "whoooohoooooo, yea, whoooohoooo, clap clap clap, yea, whohhoooooooo"
"thank you , you may be seated!"
whew
We don't stand for them either. They don't ask, and it's not disrespectful. That "protocol" in twitville was proof that men are regarded much higher than God. At church, we clap and woo hoo for Him.
I don't see anything in scripture or, as a general matter of good policy, tossing out biblical truths one has learned and retained for years, because the communicator of those truths was flawed and unethical.
You don't really know if they are "truths" unless you do the work and research it yourself
I've been speaking in tongues for over 30 years now, a truth I learned from VP. I still speak in tongues much, and it does much good in my life. Spiritual edification, strenthening with might in the inner man, rest to the soul, praying for folks, even for those who may not deserve or warrant prayer.
I would be very surprised if you did anything more than skimming over what you learned from Wierwille and uncritically accepting it. Most of us didn't. Have you considered Bullinger's (or anyone else's) arguments against speaking in tongues being available in this "administration"?
Much of what Wierwille taught was dependent on accepting definitions of words that could be found nowhere except in Wierwille's writings, and believing concepts that are declared as true without any supporting documentation.
The bible says we are to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good". That means if we learned truths from Victor Paul Wierwille, or L. Craig Martindale, Rosalie F. Rivenbark, we hold fast to them, irrespective of their screwups, or even of their good works!
"Prove All Things, Hold Fast To That Which Is Good"
So if they're true, they should STILL be true if arrived at independently of Wierwille.
SIT is a proven truth in my life, something I cannot disgard, because it WORKs...
Wierwille taught that experience was worthless if it contradicted the written "Word". If something is true because it "works" for you, then other things should be equally true because they "work" for me.
Edited by Oakspear
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rascal
That is a very good point catcup....How could we possibly trust a man to honestly teach us of God and christian values who was entirely devoid of morality and ethics......some of the very cornerstones of Christianity.
If we can not trust him in that which is least...how the heck could we ever trust him to honestly represent the scriptures and God?
Everything he taught is suspect of contamination imo.
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Belle
Very good and nice. Thanks for posting that, Catcup.
They did skew so much that they tried to teach us about etichs and morals.
Remember the teaching on the man who picked up the man who had been robbed and beaten? The kind man took him to a place to stay and paid for the man to stay there and get help and said he would return to settle any additional charges incurred. That teaching wasn't used to remind us to do good unto ALL men. It was used to teach us how awful the Catholics were and how they would have walked past that man when he was on the side of the road. I actually only heard this teaching once that I can recall. It's not surprising, there's only so much you can twist out of that one.
The teachings about "doing good unto all men BUT ESPECIALLY them who are of the household of faith" - that household being TWI. The "good unto all men" was really glossed over and taught that they got the leftovers IF there was anything left over after taking care of other TWIts. And we know there was nothing left over after trying to jump through all the TWIt hoops.
We were taught to give all our money to TWI and not to "designer causes". Forget the "all men" - they don't deserve our spit!
One of the things I started doing shortly before leaving was to pay for a few cars behind me on the toll booth. I left $20 anonymously on the desk of a co-worker who was going through a really rough divorce. I put everyone's newspaper up by their door when I was out walking my dog in the mornings. Little things - anonymous things - nice things. It made my day to do it and it started melting the ice cold heart that had become hard as granite while adhering to TWI teachings.
vee pee and lcm didn't have any ethics or morals, so naturally they would see what lined up with their warped brains when reading scriptures. Pity we actually listened to those teachings and emulated them.
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Catcup
For that very reason --that a person with no moral compass will not lead anyone to the truth, but eventually lead to a warped ethical basis for life-- hanging on to the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille is not "holding to the good." It is clinging to the vestiges of a man without a moral compass.
We are not talking here about a man with simple minor flaws that bear overlooking. We are talking about a man who admittedly knew better, and then chose to do evil anyway, repeatedly. Despite the consequences to others. It is no surprise his ethics led to doctrines that permitted gutstripping innocent people, using them, and then tossing them away like so much trash.
There is no baby, toss out that dirty soup, clean the inside of those dirty pots and pans and start from scratch, folks.
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Nottawayfer
Quote by Catcup:"There is no baby, toss out that dirty soup, clean the inside of those dirty pots and pans and start from scratch, folks."
EXCELLENT thread! EXCELLENT advice!
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rascal
THAT ought to be matted, framed and hung up in a prominant place here for all to see whohave ever been associated with twi....
Better yet...a bill board....
This man and his teachings have led so many of us astray......
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Catcup
I know there are those of us who met some good people and learned some good things in TWI. But clinging to every shred of doctrine that ever fell out of this man's mouth like it came from the very lips of God Almighty will tend toward a warped ethical outlook.
If you toss it out and re evaluate your life, if you re evaluate what you believed, if you re examine the scriptures from other points of view, I belive what was true will come back to you. You will be better off for having taken out the trash.
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skyrider
Also.......we are talking about a man who, supposedly, immersed himself in the scriptures for decades and was self-proclaimed to be "the teacher."
Heck......he was 51 years old when piffle was filmed and the last 17 years of his life were filled with adultery, scandal, venomous anger, covetousness, idolatry, etc. Many of those who closely served him in the 70s, early 80s........the Ambassador One pilot, Jxhn Rxce and a couple of veepee's aides left him....... and exited twi.
On 3 separate occasions......I personally witnessed a deep-seated, venomous anger from Wierwille that was tantamount of soul-stripping every last shred of one's dignity. Each of these three individuals suffered a public, verbal lashing that was completely beyond the scope of "reproof." These incidents incited fear and strict compliance to the mog's agenda and "attitude towards the word." Narcissism would be the most apt description of the behavior of wierwille.
Wierwille's moral compass went awry when it no longer pivoted on the life and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, having forsaken his "north star".....wierwille lost "his way" on the vast oceans of doubt and seas of speculation.
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jkboehme
________________________________________________________________________________
Also, it a matter of clinging to VPW's plagiarized Hermetic esotericism and Gnostic dualism that is so prevalent in TWI teaching. It is not a matter of there being anything intrinsically 'wrong' about these belief systems, because there are not. The issue is that VPW lied about his sources and tried to present a Biblically veneered esotericism and gnosticism as "the 'Word' as it has not been known since the first century..."
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Nottawayfer
Quote by jkboehm: "On 3 separate occasions......I personally witnessed a deep-seated, venomous anger from Wierwille that was tantamount of soul-stripping every last shred of one's dignity. Each of these three individuals suffered a public, verbal lashing that was completely beyond the scope of "reproof." These incidents incited fear and strict compliance to the mog's agenda and "attitude towards the word." Narcissism would be the most apt description of the behavior of wierwille."
Venomous anger which we know has been titled "righteous anger". It's really sad and sick that an organization which calls itself "Christian" did/does this kind of crap. We HAD to be brainwashed to think we could stick around after that kind of stuff. Why would we stick around otherwise?
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templelady
I think that is what the parable of the bad tree bearing bad fruit and the good tree bearing good fruit was all about.
It's not that we can't do good if we do bad--Because we can --It's if we consistently choose the bad knowing it is bad that that eventually creates the inability to do good
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Catcup
Absolutely. There is not a perfect person on the face of the earth. Everyone makes mistakes. However, as Maya Angelou frequently says... "When you know better, you do better."
It is knowing better, yet continuing to perform in a perverse manner and attempting to scripturally justify it, that sets this man and his teachings apart as unworthy of being held up as models of Christian behavior and ethics.
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dmiller
Given the fact that docvic stole so much from other accredited folks,
over all the years, passing it off as his own research ~~~
I had no problem seeing the *baby* when I tossed out the bathwater. :)
(What's going down YOUR drain?)
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excathedra
there's this really nice guy, i think his name is david reed. he teaches at fordham university i believe. he has posted something that has always made sense to me. if you don't genuinely live what you're preaching, you're suspect.
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GrouchoMarxJr
In hindsight, the "ethics" of Wierwille stand out in my mind as being totally self centered. It was always about him...He had to be the center of attention at all times.
He twisted the bible to meet his own ends and his actions showed no regard for others...
He passed off the work of others as his own and his adultrous and drunken lifestyle provokes only contempt from me today.
The teachings and ethics of Victor Paul Wierwille?...
...If Wierwille DOES make it to heaven, he will be cleaning toilets.
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bliss
I go to a sunday school class right now and "nodody CLAPS" for the teachers.
It is really refreshing.
No "whoooohoooooo, yea, whoooohoooo, clap clap clap, yea, whohhoooooooo"
"thank you , you may be seated!"
whew
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oldiesman
I don't see anything in scripture or, as a general matter of good policy, tossing out biblical truths one has learned and retained for years, because the communicator of those truths was flawed and unethical.
The bible says we are to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good". That means if we learned truths from Victor Paul Wierwille, or L. Craig Martindale, Rosalie F. Rivenbark, we hold fast to them, irrespective of their screwups, or even of their good works!
"Prove All Things, Hold Fast To That Which Is Good"
I've been speaking in tongues for over 30 years now, a truth I learned from VP. I still speak in tongues much, and it does much good in my life. Spiritual edification, strenthening with might in the inner man, rest to the soul, praying for folks, even for those who may not deserve or warrant prayer.
SIT is a proven truth in my life, something I cannot disgard, because it WORKs...
Some other truths are: .... knowing one's sonship rights; salvation by grace; complete in Him...
Golly, toss all those goodies out, and more? Not me.
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bliss
How do we know what is the TRUTH Oldies?
That is the point Oldies, PROVE IT! Most don't know what was/is/is not truth, so we have to start over!
IF a LITTLE or ALL was true what Doc Vic/LCM taught, then, when we PROVE it, we will HOLD TO THE GOOD!
(at least I will)
But right now, I have to check ALL that I was taught first.
How did you know about NOT agreeing with the TITHE unless you re-evaluated it, proved it?
You came to other conclusions, therefore, YOU DID NOT HOLD ONTO THAT, to you it was NOT GOOD.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
don't you know that cleaning toilets is a great blessing?almost like having one of those 7 or was it 8 crowns
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oldiesman
Personally, I think we'll have a rotating job schedule.
After all, we have all of eternity.
I'd be willing to clean toilets for a few hundred years under those circumstances, wouldn't you?
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GrouchoMarxJr
The crown of tidy bowl?
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Belle
I was kinda hoping there'd be no toilets and no need for toilets in Heaven.
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Nottawayfer
We don't stand for them either. They don't ask, and it's not disrespectful. That "protocol" in twitville was proof that men are regarded much higher than God. At church, we clap and woo hoo for Him.
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Lifted Up
Yea, why not? I do it a lot at home anyway.
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Oakspear
Much of what Wierwille taught was dependent on accepting definitions of words that could be found nowhere except in Wierwille's writings, and believing concepts that are declared as true without any supporting documentation.
So if they're true, they should STILL be true if arrived at independently of Wierwille. Wierwille taught that experience was worthless if it contradicted the written "Word". If something is true because it "works" for you, then other things should be equally true because they "work" for me. Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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