Mark, of course that is the ultimate answer. But the bible is very clear on these things...and I just wondered how many people know what the bible actually says.
Mark, of course that is the ultimate answer. But the bible is very clear on these things...and I just wondered how many people know what the bible actually says.
Is it? (Seriously) Do tell... 'Cause I don't recall where it says that, without exception, that it takes demon possession to do any of the above...
Ah grasshopper! You are wise beyond your years. :)
Actually, the bible is very clear that these things are 'works of the flesh'....Galatians 5.
Actually, I don't concur with your statement. While I do agree that a person who accomplishes them need not be 'devil-spirit' possessed, a la TWI teaching. But to not look beyond...in other words, why are these works of the flesh...does a disservice and is short sighted, imo.
Jn 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
1 Jo 3:8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
etc.
And it also seems that one should not discount the reports in the Bible of a people who have come under the influence of demons to varying degrees. If one subscribes to the Bible, that is.
My contention is not that a person will not be pushed in that direction by some spiritual influence.
My contention is to list that as an immediate cause for each occasion. That simply turns a respect for the Bible into mere superstition and voodoo.
A person with "holy spirit" cannot have another "spirit" indwelling at the same time.
Think about THAT for a moment. How many wafers who already SIT were there, but then were told that they were "possessd" ?
I mean, for a devil spirit to be inside you at the same time as holy spirit.................a lot of fightin perty hard, IMO.
(Move over holy spirit, no, get thee behind me Satan, no YOu get out, no you!!...) I can hear it now.....
It would make no sense as long as you believe you do not "lose'' holy spirit.
So in light of this then;
There have been born again folks that have commited all of these acts.
So either,they cannot be "possessed" at the time (just influenced by).
or
they "lost" holy spirit.
I think God is the judge on this one.
IMO
Or, there is a possible third way: and that is that the pneumatology you were taught in TWI was in error.
BTW, this version of pneumatology is not unique to TWI. You may be taught something very similar if you attend a ecclesiastical group that subscribes to a similar pneumatology as TWI (and there are many of those out there).
There have been a lot of threads recently that challenge us to completely re-examine fundamental concepts we've been taught throughout our experience in twi. This may well be one other thing that needs re-examination....
It's kinda like the chicken and the egg thing: which came first, the works of the flesh or the devil?
Of course it seems pretty obvious that, biblically speaking, the devil came first and caused the works of the flesh.
So what's my point?
Well, the bible also speaks of 'the spirit of man'...
So, in the bible, we have at least 3 different types of 'spirit' in play: holy spirit; evil sprit; man's spirit (and I say "at least 3" because there are obscure references to animal spirit and plant life spirit).
How do these things interact? What influences what? What cannot be influenced? Can Man dump all responsibility of 'evil' onto 'the Devil'? Just exactly how many 'devil spirits' are at work at one time? Where's holy spirit when ya need it?
As already pointed out, the pneumatology of twi is wrong...and, specifically, imo, twi demonology is wrong.
How do we get beyond twi-think? The churches don't have much to offer beyond what twi offers. How does one learn about these things?
well......all I know for NOW is what JOHN 14:26 says:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My Name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance........................
so even Jesus didn't say that a "MOG" would teach it......................
Then we have to get back to defining "God, who is he"? and Who or What is Holy Spirit?
Actually requiring devil spirit influence ?? (we'll leave possession part out 'cause I don;t think that possession is actually necessary to commit evil acts)
That would be hatred --whether of self, others or things is immaterial--all evil has it's root in hatred of one form or another
I'm not sure I agree with you, Mo. Or I don't understand. Do you consider someone telling a lie or sleeping with someone outside of marriage is out of hatred? I don't think so.
People do bad things all the time and I'm of the opinion that we can't possibly know all the factors that lead to such actions. I have never thought about it the way that Bliss explained it, but it makes sense. If someone has holy spirit then they can't lose that and how would holy spirit co-habitate with a devil spirit? It doesn't seem possible. BUT, I also don't recall any teachings on what the "spiritual" limits are for a human body. :D
I just think we don't know and can't know. Also, why do we need to know? *shrug* I suppose I'm getting more and more apathetic these days. LOL! That, or just tired of straining gnats to some degree. Me wee widdle brain is tired of thinking on these things.
I don't equate bad with Evil Bad means you break the rules--Evil is something more--it is a premeditation to commit wrong acts with the express intent of causing harm.
You can argue that adultery is premeditated but usually based on the assumption "no one will get hurt"
Most Bad things people do are committed with a lack of foresight as to the consequences as opposed to malicious intent to harm
I am happy to use 'demon' or whatever someone is talking about -- there are some lively and wonderful research going on in the world regarding the way the power of the devil is manifested -- and how to shut his mouth.
Once again, Coolwaters, thanks for an interesting poll – it certainly gets heads a thinkin'. In the poll, I chose that you don't need a devil spirit to do any of those things. VPW's teaching on this does a great job of relieving personal responsibility. I'm not saying "there ain't no devils out there possessin' folk" - although I think I still have The Exorcist type of possession stuck in my head – which I believe can happen but in my ol' TWI-brain I think I lumped all "the-way-devilish-stuff-works" in that cartoon-like category.
I have my own dumb theory for splainin' why we do stuff: Everyone is born with a different genetic make-up, strengths and weaknesses [God's original handiwork plus inherited sinful nature]. A person doesn't need holy or unholyspirit to desire good or bad things [consider the Bible often appeals to our wills, our ability to choose]… So I wonder how a spirit influences someone's mind. I've never heard an audible voice from God [not even after wiping the snow off the gas pump at a convenience store in Gunnison], and not really sure how God works in my life. When I see someone in need – is it my mind or the Spirit that begins to think of reasons why I should help them or ways to help them…Alright – so my theory doesn't explain anything – but I don't think I need to watch out for devil spirits behind every tree. The idea I get from the Bible is that the best way to prep for battling our spiritual enemy is by living an upright, morally sound life – obeying God…And I'm definitely getting rid of my Ouija Board after this poll – when's the next Uncle Harry Day?
Of course one could say that holy spirit and demons cannot coexist in one body but then you would have to 'describe' the 'breakdown' of what the 'holy spirit' and demonic spirit is !
One thing that still bugs me is the catholic churches ( along with others) that really don't teach on the 'wiles' of the adversary (sorry Mark). It's almost like they don't believe he exists, or that he and his angels are somehow only 'subjectively' involved in the woes of mankind.
Of course one could say that holy spirit and demons cannot coexist in one body but then you would have to 'describe' the 'breakdown' of what the 'holy spirit' and demonic spirit is !
One thing that still bugs me is the catholic churches ( along with others) that really don't teach on the 'wiles' of the adversary (sorry Mark). It's almost like they don't believe he exists, or that he and his angels are somehow only 'subjectively' involved in the woes of mankind.
You can have your opinion all you'd like Allan.
However, it is curious, that a group who doesn't believe in the devil would still have this archaic rite: Rite of Exorcism
And it's funny that we say the following prayer following each daily (not Sunday) Mass:
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of Battle; Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke Him, we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who prowl through the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen
What may confuse you is that the Catholic Church doesn't attribute literally everything that happens against one's wishes to the devil. We acknowledge that most of the time, sh&t happens.
Hey! How'd this discussion keep going and me not know about it????? Oh...I see...somewhere along the line I turned off notifications of replies to this topic. Sheesh! Sometimes I'm such a dunce. :D
Anyway...
The whole concept of genetic makeup...and what triggers one person's makeup one way and another person's another way...is very interesting in this discussion. Because imo although 'the devil' may not actually be present, he/she/it had to have made the initial mark, the initial blot on the perfect. Ya know?
I do believe that spirit teaches mind. I believed that long before twi. What I don't believe is that an active spirit has to be present to perpetuate the teaching. In other words, if my great-great-great grandmother was an alcoholic then it is more than likely that alcoholism will be passed onto me. Why? Because not only the genetic predisposition is there, but the habit patterns of alcoholism are there...and both are passed on from generation to generation...in the physical realm. The demonic influence did its job in Great-great-great Grandma. The rest was just passing it all on.
CoolWaters, I'm trying to remember the specifics of an interesting article I read in Time, Newsweek [can't remember what magazine]- anyway basic idea of this study was they looked at what kind of home life growing up people with violent tendencies had. I'm probably botching up the details - but I think the article suggested it wasn't always the case that if you were abused at home then you yourself grew up to do the same. It was if you had a particular gene and you were in a particular environment that would act as a TRIGGER to that gene.
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justloafing
While I do believe in those nasty little debbil spirits I don't think you have to have one to have any of the things above happen.
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markomalley
One choice is missing:
"I am not God. I am not omniscient. Therefore, I don't know."
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CoolWaters
just loafing...yeah...I hear ya!
Mark, of course that is the ultimate answer. But the bible is very clear on these things...and I just wondered how many people know what the bible actually says.
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markomalley
Is it? (Seriously) Do tell... 'Cause I don't recall where it says that, without exception, that it takes demon possession to do any of the above...
But I'm more than willing to listen.
I just recall TWI saying so...
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CoolWaters
Ah grasshopper! You are wise beyond your years. :)
Actually, the bible is very clear that these things are 'works of the flesh'....Galatians 5.
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markomalley
Actually, I don't concur with your statement. While I do agree that a person who accomplishes them need not be 'devil-spirit' possessed, a la TWI teaching. But to not look beyond...in other words, why are these works of the flesh...does a disservice and is short sighted, imo.
Jn 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
1 Jo 3:8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
etc.
And it also seems that one should not discount the reports in the Bible of a people who have come under the influence of demons to varying degrees. If one subscribes to the Bible, that is.
My contention is not that a person will not be pushed in that direction by some spiritual influence.
My contention is to list that as an immediate cause for each occasion. That simply turns a respect for the Bible into mere superstition and voodoo.
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bliss
Here is something I am starting to believe....
A person with "holy spirit" cannot have another "spirit" indwelling at the same time.
Think about THAT for a moment. How many wafers who already SIT were there, but then were told that they were "possessd" ?
I mean, for a devil spirit to be inside you at the same time as holy spirit.................a lot of fightin perty hard, IMO.
(Move over holy spirit, no, get thee behind me Satan, no YOu get out, no you!!...) I can hear it now.....
It would make no sense as long as you believe you do not "lose'' holy spirit.
So in light of this then;
There have been born again folks that have commited all of these acts.
So either,they cannot be "possessed" at the time (just influenced by).
or
they "lost" holy spirit.
I think God is the judge on this one.
IMO
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markomalley
Or, there is a possible third way: and that is that the pneumatology you were taught in TWI was in error.
BTW, this version of pneumatology is not unique to TWI. You may be taught something very similar if you attend a ecclesiastical group that subscribes to a similar pneumatology as TWI (and there are many of those out there).
There have been a lot of threads recently that challenge us to completely re-examine fundamental concepts we've been taught throughout our experience in twi. This may well be one other thing that needs re-examination....
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CoolWaters
OK...we've got a great discussion going! :)
It's kinda like the chicken and the egg thing: which came first, the works of the flesh or the devil?
Of course it seems pretty obvious that, biblically speaking, the devil came first and caused the works of the flesh.
So what's my point?
Well, the bible also speaks of 'the spirit of man'...
So, in the bible, we have at least 3 different types of 'spirit' in play: holy spirit; evil sprit; man's spirit (and I say "at least 3" because there are obscure references to animal spirit and plant life spirit).
How do these things interact? What influences what? What cannot be influenced? Can Man dump all responsibility of 'evil' onto 'the Devil'? Just exactly how many 'devil spirits' are at work at one time? Where's holy spirit when ya need it?
As already pointed out, the pneumatology of twi is wrong...and, specifically, imo, twi demonology is wrong.
How do we get beyond twi-think? The churches don't have much to offer beyond what twi offers. How does one learn about these things?
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bliss
well......all I know for NOW is what JOHN 14:26 says:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My Name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance........................
so even Jesus didn't say that a "MOG" would teach it......................
Then we have to get back to defining "God, who is he"? and Who or What is Holy Spirit?
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igotout
Of course it takes a devil spirit to murder. Because that is what we were taught in the Way of Abundance & Power Advanced Class.
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krys
I voted "none of the above" because of the wording of your poll, which you can't change.
I don't think any of those require a devil spirit, although spirits could be present.
They are all "devilish" and they are all works of the devil but that doesn't mean a devil spirit has to perform them.
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CM
reasons are the reason for murder
the source of those reasons are the questions i suppose
and even deeper to get to how this reasoning came to be
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templelady
Actually requiring devil spirit influence ?? (we'll leave possession part out 'cause I don;t think that possession is actually necessary to commit evil acts)
That would be hatred --whether of self, others or things is immaterial--all evil has it's root in hatred of one form or another
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Belle
I'm not sure I agree with you, Mo. Or I don't understand. Do you consider someone telling a lie or sleeping with someone outside of marriage is out of hatred? I don't think so.
People do bad things all the time and I'm of the opinion that we can't possibly know all the factors that lead to such actions. I have never thought about it the way that Bliss explained it, but it makes sense. If someone has holy spirit then they can't lose that and how would holy spirit co-habitate with a devil spirit? It doesn't seem possible. BUT, I also don't recall any teachings on what the "spiritual" limits are for a human body. :D
I just think we don't know and can't know. Also, why do we need to know? *shrug* I suppose I'm getting more and more apathetic these days. LOL! That, or just tired of straining gnats to some degree. Me wee widdle brain is tired of thinking on these things.
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templelady
Belle
I don't equate bad with Evil Bad means you break the rules--Evil is something more--it is a premeditation to commit wrong acts with the express intent of causing harm.
You can argue that adultery is premeditated but usually based on the assumption "no one will get hurt"
Most Bad things people do are committed with a lack of foresight as to the consequences as opposed to malicious intent to harm
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Belle
Ok, I can consider that. :) Thank you for clarifying.
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Tom Strange
...but I was out before that class... how will I ever know???
Sorry... I don't believe in the boogie man anymore... just bad or sick people...
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Kit Sober
I am happy to use 'demon' or whatever someone is talking about -- there are some lively and wonderful research going on in the world regarding the way the power of the devil is manifested -- and how to shut his mouth.
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T-Bone
Once again, Coolwaters, thanks for an interesting poll – it certainly gets heads a thinkin'. In the poll, I chose that you don't need a devil spirit to do any of those things. VPW's teaching on this does a great job of relieving personal responsibility. I'm not saying "there ain't no devils out there possessin' folk" - although I think I still have The Exorcist type of possession stuck in my head – which I believe can happen but in my ol' TWI-brain I think I lumped all "the-way-devilish-stuff-works" in that cartoon-like category.
I have my own dumb theory for splainin' why we do stuff: Everyone is born with a different genetic make-up, strengths and weaknesses [God's original handiwork plus inherited sinful nature]. A person doesn't need holy or unholy spirit to desire good or bad things [consider the Bible often appeals to our wills, our ability to choose]… So I wonder how a spirit influences someone's mind. I've never heard an audible voice from God [not even after wiping the snow off the gas pump at a convenience store in Gunnison], and not really sure how God works in my life. When I see someone in need – is it my mind or the Spirit that begins to think of reasons why I should help them or ways to help them…Alright – so my theory doesn't explain anything – but I don't think I need to watch out for devil spirits behind every tree. The idea I get from the Bible is that the best way to prep for battling our spiritual enemy is by living an upright, morally sound life – obeying God…And I'm definitely getting rid of my Ouija Board after this poll – when's the next Uncle Harry Day?
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allan w.
Of course one could say that holy spirit and demons cannot coexist in one body but then you would have to 'describe' the 'breakdown' of what the 'holy spirit' and demonic spirit is !
One thing that still bugs me is the catholic churches ( along with others) that really don't teach on the 'wiles' of the adversary (sorry Mark). It's almost like they don't believe he exists, or that he and his angels are somehow only 'subjectively' involved in the woes of mankind.
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markomalley
You can have your opinion all you'd like Allan.
However, it is curious, that a group who doesn't believe in the devil would still have this archaic rite: Rite of Exorcism
And it's funny that we say the following prayer following each daily (not Sunday) Mass:
What may confuse you is that the Catholic Church doesn't attribute literally everything that happens against one's wishes to the devil. We acknowledge that most of the time, sh&t happens.
But, hey, what do I know???
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CoolWaters
Hey! How'd this discussion keep going and me not know about it????? Oh...I see...somewhere along the line I turned off notifications of replies to this topic. Sheesh! Sometimes I'm such a dunce. :D
Anyway...
The whole concept of genetic makeup...and what triggers one person's makeup one way and another person's another way...is very interesting in this discussion. Because imo although 'the devil' may not actually be present, he/she/it had to have made the initial mark, the initial blot on the perfect. Ya know?
I do believe that spirit teaches mind. I believed that long before twi. What I don't believe is that an active spirit has to be present to perpetuate the teaching. In other words, if my great-great-great grandmother was an alcoholic then it is more than likely that alcoholism will be passed onto me. Why? Because not only the genetic predisposition is there, but the habit patterns of alcoholism are there...and both are passed on from generation to generation...in the physical realm. The demonic influence did its job in Great-great-great Grandma. The rest was just passing it all on.
Does that make sense?
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T-Bone
CoolWaters, I'm trying to remember the specifics of an interesting article I read in Time, Newsweek [can't remember what magazine]- anyway basic idea of this study was they looked at what kind of home life growing up people with violent tendencies had. I'm probably botching up the details - but I think the article suggested it wasn't always the case that if you were abused at home then you yourself grew up to do the same. It was if you had a particular gene and you were in a particular environment that would act as a TRIGGER to that gene.
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