Your way was pretty much the format for the seventies way, except for the music. In the early days there wasn't much "ministry" music except Pressed Down & Selah: by mid-seventies there was more variety, so we stuck to that for background music. We encouraged people to fellowship before and after; that was part of what ministering to people consisted of. And (horrors) by running things that way the population of the ministry grew!
Any time things got "legal" the fervor lessened considerable. "Legal" and "Love" just doen't mesh. Things can be as you described and as we ran it and still be decent and in order: that's what leadership is all about. Who sets the tone? You do. IMHO, that is.
Somebody is always spoiling the fun. A couple of classes before mine they served wine at the break till someone told them it was probably not a good idea. I bet those SIT sessions were a riot.
When I was tc in the 70's, our twig was much like Eagle describes...
People had fun and we all enjoyed each other's company. Nobody was afraid of being yelled at...it was relaxing and at times inspirational...
I still have a hard time understanding why twi began to micromanage everything. It became mechanical and rigid. It became religion. Near the end of my time in twi, the main way to get people to come to twig was to motivate them by guilt and fear...
What started out as inspirational get togethers evolved into cult ceremonies...They should have known better. Was control THAT important to them?...apparently so.
Next time I run a home fellowship it will be by my rules and my rules alone. Which are fewer rules. The only rule I had was the rule of love one toward the other.
It's funny. The ABS without tithing with the 21 people averaged about $700.00 a week. When I enforced the tithe, people left. Vanished. The ABS dropped to $450.00 a week. As the rules increased, we went finally down to 2 people, ABS was $120.00 a week. The two of us left tried to push 15% because the financial totals looked so bad. Things got worse.
Left alone to grow, we could have easily surpassed $1000.00 a week or roughly $52,000 to $55,000 a year. One fellowship. Love offering and not tithing. Some of the people told me they tithed because they wanted to. But when told they HAD to, they got extremely upset and not only left the fellowship but TWI. I believe they tried a couple of other fellowships in our branch before dropping, but we all had the same order to push the tithe.
Finally, the fellowship died when my roommate went to work at HQ. What was the use? I closed up shop and moved.
It has always been my opinion that people gave the most when they wee left to give from their heart. Force 10% and you'll get less - because you've shifted the standard and lowered it form the Law of Love. Fuuny how TWI lost that concept...
TWI HQ sent a loser of a Branch coordinator to our area to replace the loving one they had thrown out. This one was so anal and obnoxious he even micromanaged his kids with a schedule on the fridge of what they could eat for snack in AM and PM (and what time those snacks were), and how they could not come to fellowship unless "invited." I remembered being over there for a fellowship starting at 7:30 and the kids, who were in elementary school, had been confined to their bedrooms since 7 p.m. That jerk managed to take a thriving branch and run off about 75 percent of us ... but it is just as well. The other 25% of us formed our own fellowship/church and are doing quite wonderfully ... with NO schedules attached to the fridge and actually do Children's Church for the little ones. Amazing how legalistic and micromanaging those people became .... and how quickly.
I was going to offer you a cinnamon bun fresh from the oven, but Radar's pug knocked it out of my hands.
I'll have to go back for another one.
TWI taught about growth without compulsion - growth from within, but they forced it. Sounds like a great concept till you're told that they are yelling at you to get things straight because they love you.
I want you to give 15% so that God can bless and protect you. I'm helping you grow, see?
I want you to tell me your daily schedule in 15 minute increments so I can help you grow.
I don't need any friggin' help from you and if that's help, then I don't want any, thank you.
I love dogs ... but don't have one ... although if I had a good place for one, I would be sure to have a couple ... I have a good friend who has a black Lab/Chesapeake mix ... I get to see him fairly often, so I guess he is my favorite dog du jour.
BTW, one BIG difference between TWI II and the home-based church I now attend is this: when one of the members' dogs was sick, we prayed for him to get better. Try THAT in TWI. They hardly let you pray for the regular people in TWI 2.
BTW, one BIG difference between TWI II and the home-based church I now attend is this: when one of the members' dogs was sick, we prayed for him to get better. Try THAT in TWI. They hardly let you pray for the regular people in TWI 2.
Yep, that'd NEVER happen in TWI!
If you think dogs can't count, try putting three treats in your hand and only giving the dog two!
I remember leading a fellowship that grew from four to 15-21 people in its peak. I began with four, rose to 15, then rose again to 21. Then it disintegrated down to two, my roommate and I. What changed?
Yea. Sounds familiar. Very familiar. My first real Twig was quite prosperous in terms of growth and most of us knew each other so before long we had a Twigful of people who were really looking to make something happen. We started out around 4 but within 6 months we had 50 people show up for one Twig so we took it outside to a nearby park. More realistically we had on average 15 -20 people for a Twig but on Family Nights we could hit the 50 mark with no problems. Since we had grown so fast we did run several PFAL classes in a very short window of time. Our local Twig leaders were just WOWS many of whom were no older than the people coming to Twig so in many ways we got along pretty well and there really wasn't much of the "I'm in control " mentality until later.
Our downfall was when some visting Corps rolled through town and started correcting everyone on how they should be running a class and how we should be splitting Twigs once they reached a certain size. Of course we explained to them that we had rapid growth that no one foresaw and that we didnt' necessarily have the same number of people at each Twig. But this wouldn't do. They then started saying that if someone didn't come to Twig regularly then they aren't serious "blah blah" and so on. We ran 3 times as many PFAL classes as in ohter areas and there were no signs of things stopping until the Corps people started madating certain things and requiring certian procedures and so on. Within like 4 months these guys RUINED any and all growth in our area. People started hating coming to Twig and there was a huge morale problem. Of course the Corps people blamed it ALL on us - that we werent committed and all that jazz.
So eventually some of these Corps people rotated out of the area but their influence was still very much there especially with the WOWs. One girl who previously had been a great person turned into this really dark, twisted, intense character who saw devil spirits behind everything and sought to explain the most insignificant details and problems in terms of the devil and his minions.
If her mattress wasn't perfectly level she blamed "The Adversary" for trying to "rob her of a good night's sleep". And it went on and on. She routinely cast out demons from people , rooms, and even animals she thought to be at the root of say declining Twig attendance. Prior to that time I had never seen such a change in someone's behavior and it was scary to observe. I used to think that she was attractive but she walked around with this scowl on her face and it was rare to see a smile from her. I think she was perhaps acting like she thought a hardcore christian should act. But it was
n't very becoming and her personality sufferred greatly. Needless to say her Twig soon lost most of its members with the few remanining members being people in her Wow family and a couple of people who lived in the same apartment complex. Over time they quit coming.
I should have known something was wrong and I guess I did but I didn't bail out for a few more years mostly because I wasn't going to pursue the expected Way "progression" of taking all of the classes, going WOW, and then Corps. I went to college instead and went to Twig when I could. I had enough contacts in various Twigs that this didn't appear to be a big deal until the
early 80s or so when casual Twig attendance was seen as a sign of lack of committment. It sounded so deja vu to me that
I pulled the plug on my relationship with TWI. No one really ever conronted me about it - but I had heard that a Corps guy speak
and he was blabbing on about people being "dead wood" and if they didn't progress then they were worthless to the ministry and
stuff like that. I didn't need anyone to tell me that he was including people like me in his little speech. We had lots of people who had a life outside of TWI and wanted to keep it that way. But TWI leaders didn'tt want anyt part-timers unless you were like a celebrity or a physician, someone they could show case around - then you could came and go as you pleased and no one said anything. What hypocrisy. Any way I told a few people that I was bailing and that was it. I never went back. I still kept in contact with a few friends
and we spoke about things and they would even invite me to some events but I declined.
Devil spirits were everywhere and everything, more prominent than God and more powerful than the holy spirit to hear some speak. For example, I was in my intermediate class when I was attempting to interpret tongues. I had a rough going at first. So a Corps person tried casting the devil spirits out of the room.
Then I screwed up more being so nervous. I guess reinforcements must have arrived to help screw me up.
A friend of mine had the flu. He asked for prayer. He got an exorcism instead.
Stuff like that.
I questioned why the holy spirit in born-again believers could be overcome by devil spirits so that they could possess them. The holy spirit was silenced by devil spirits.
I was "misinformed", needed "correction", not "educated" enough in PFAL, and influenced, if not "possessed" by devil spirits myself to even suggest that.
I spoke to a person that left the ministry. That person was possessed and I was led by devil spirits.
Anybody else have similar experiences? Part of the Micro-management style of TWI was to rule by fear, and fear of "devil spirits". IMHO.
Recommended Posts
bliss
Can I come to your fellowship Eagle?
Was it social or for "da Word"?
Who cares?
They could be sleeping in, but instead they came to enjoy the sweetness of God and His people.
So sad leagalism set in. People need a shepard, not a butcher.
Glad to see you were just lovin God and His people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
moony3424
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
topoftheworld
Your way was pretty much the format for the seventies way, except for the music. In the early days there wasn't much "ministry" music except Pressed Down & Selah: by mid-seventies there was more variety, so we stuck to that for background music. We encouraged people to fellowship before and after; that was part of what ministering to people consisted of. And (horrors) by running things that way the population of the ministry grew!
Any time things got "legal" the fervor lessened considerable. "Legal" and "Love" just doen't mesh. Things can be as you described and as we ran it and still be decent and in order: that's what leadership is all about. Who sets the tone? You do. IMHO, that is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Aaaaahhh Eagle
Somebody is always spoiling the fun. A couple of classes before mine they served wine at the break till someone told them it was probably not a good idea. I bet those SIT sessions were a riot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
When I was tc in the 70's, our twig was much like Eagle describes...
People had fun and we all enjoyed each other's company. Nobody was afraid of being yelled at...it was relaxing and at times inspirational...
I still have a hard time understanding why twi began to micromanage everything. It became mechanical and rigid. It became religion. Near the end of my time in twi, the main way to get people to come to twig was to motivate them by guilt and fear...
What started out as inspirational get togethers evolved into cult ceremonies...They should have known better. Was control THAT important to them?...apparently so.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
Thanks, guys.
Next time I run a home fellowship it will be by my rules and my rules alone. Which are fewer rules. The only rule I had was the rule of love one toward the other.
It's funny. The ABS without tithing with the 21 people averaged about $700.00 a week. When I enforced the tithe, people left. Vanished. The ABS dropped to $450.00 a week. As the rules increased, we went finally down to 2 people, ABS was $120.00 a week. The two of us left tried to push 15% because the financial totals looked so bad. Things got worse.
Left alone to grow, we could have easily surpassed $1000.00 a week or roughly $52,000 to $55,000 a year. One fellowship. Love offering and not tithing. Some of the people told me they tithed because they wanted to. But when told they HAD to, they got extremely upset and not only left the fellowship but TWI. I believe they tried a couple of other fellowships in our branch before dropping, but we all had the same order to push the tithe.
Finally, the fellowship died when my roommate went to work at HQ. What was the use? I closed up shop and moved.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
It has always been my opinion that people gave the most when they wee left to give from their heart. Force 10% and you'll get less - because you've shifted the standard and lowered it form the Law of Love. Fuuny how TWI lost that concept...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Geee.that is quit different from the fellowship I left in late 99'
If its 10:30 Sun.morn and your late..you cannot go in
If your not there you better be in the hospital deathly ill.
If you were not there you can expect a call...why
Mandatory 3x a week...I drove 1 hr. 15 one way
Hand in my travel form 3 wks before traveling to see fiance'
fill form, where was I staying, time left, date returning, ph number,fellowship coordinators name, who was I visiting, etc.
no debt
15 % abs
attend all classes
better hug BC(TC) or your in suspicion of not walking in love...
If you had a spouse not in attendance..were where they?..ok, to go to parent teacher conference maybe?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DogLover
TWI HQ sent a loser of a Branch coordinator to our area to replace the loving one they had thrown out. This one was so anal and obnoxious he even micromanaged his kids with a schedule on the fridge of what they could eat for snack in AM and PM (and what time those snacks were), and how they could not come to fellowship unless "invited." I remembered being over there for a fellowship starting at 7:30 and the kids, who were in elementary school, had been confined to their bedrooms since 7 p.m. That jerk managed to take a thriving branch and run off about 75 percent of us ... but it is just as well. The other 25% of us formed our own fellowship/church and are doing quite wonderfully ... with NO schedules attached to the fridge and actually do Children's Church for the little ones. Amazing how legalistic and micromanaging those people became .... and how quickly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
Welcome Doglover. What kind of dog(s) do you have?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Welcome, Dog Lover!
I was going to offer you a cinnamon bun fresh from the oven, but Radar's pug knocked it out of my hands.
I'll have to go back for another one.
TWI taught about growth without compulsion - growth from within, but they forced it. Sounds like a great concept till you're told that they are yelling at you to get things straight because they love you.
I want you to give 15% so that God can bless and protect you. I'm helping you grow, see?
I want you to tell me your daily schedule in 15 minute increments so I can help you grow.
I don't need any friggin' help from you and if that's help, then I don't want any, thank you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
Mine might have something to say to Radar's pug about that cinnamon bun.
Hi DogLover. Lets see your puppers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
I love seeing the doggies! Send more pics!! I LOVE labs, but now I love that pug too!! Darn! I need to buy a farm so I can have at least 10 dogs!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I have dogs.. 7 of them...but don`t have the ability to post their pictures :(
My dogs might mistake the pug FOR the cinnamon bun (accidently of course) as they are mostly shepherds and a dane.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
7 dogs....7 kids.....almost spiritual perfection there Rascal!! What else can you get 7 of to make it?? LOL!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Ummm would you believe me if I told you that I had 7 horses/ponies as well?
Believe it or not it wasnt` planned that way :)
I only have four cats though...can I make it up in iguannas, geckos turtles and fish?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
Bring a dog to fellowship. Make him tithe of his Milkbones.
Watch his reaction...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
yeah - apparently even dogs have more sense then we did :blink:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
moony3424
No ya got to get 3 more cats in order to get this perfection thing.
Edited by moony3424Link to comment
Share on other sites
DogLover
I love dogs ... but don't have one ... although if I had a good place for one, I would be sure to have a couple ... I have a good friend who has a black Lab/Chesapeake mix ... I get to see him fairly often, so I guess he is my favorite dog du jour.
BTW, one BIG difference between TWI II and the home-based church I now attend is this: when one of the members' dogs was sick, we prayed for him to get better. Try THAT in TWI. They hardly let you pray for the regular people in TWI 2.
Edited by DogLoverLink to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Yep, that'd NEVER happen in TWI!
If you think dogs can't count, try putting three treats in your hand and only giving the dog two!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Unless it was Doc Wierdsville making intercession for Tick.LOL!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
diazbro
Yea. Sounds familiar. Very familiar. My first real Twig was quite prosperous in terms of growth and most of us knew each other so before long we had a Twigful of people who were really looking to make something happen. We started out around 4 but within 6 months we had 50 people show up for one Twig so we took it outside to a nearby park. More realistically we had on average 15 -20 people for a Twig but on Family Nights we could hit the 50 mark with no problems. Since we had grown so fast we did run several PFAL classes in a very short window of time. Our local Twig leaders were just WOWS many of whom were no older than the people coming to Twig so in many ways we got along pretty well and there really wasn't much of the "I'm in control " mentality until later.
Our downfall was when some visting Corps rolled through town and started correcting everyone on how they should be running a class and how we should be splitting Twigs once they reached a certain size. Of course we explained to them that we had rapid growth that no one foresaw and that we didnt' necessarily have the same number of people at each Twig. But this wouldn't do. They then started saying that if someone didn't come to Twig regularly then they aren't serious "blah blah" and so on. We ran 3 times as many PFAL classes as in ohter areas and there were no signs of things stopping until the Corps people started madating certain things and requiring certian procedures and so on. Within like 4 months these guys RUINED any and all growth in our area. People started hating coming to Twig and there was a huge morale problem. Of course the Corps people blamed it ALL on us - that we werent committed and all that jazz.
So eventually some of these Corps people rotated out of the area but their influence was still very much there especially with the WOWs. One girl who previously had been a great person turned into this really dark, twisted, intense character who saw devil spirits behind everything and sought to explain the most insignificant details and problems in terms of the devil and his minions.
If her mattress wasn't perfectly level she blamed "The Adversary" for trying to "rob her of a good night's sleep". And it went on and on. She routinely cast out demons from people , rooms, and even animals she thought to be at the root of say declining Twig attendance. Prior to that time I had never seen such a change in someone's behavior and it was scary to observe. I used to think that she was attractive but she walked around with this scowl on her face and it was rare to see a smile from her. I think she was perhaps acting like she thought a hardcore christian should act. But it was
n't very becoming and her personality sufferred greatly. Needless to say her Twig soon lost most of its members with the few remanining members being people in her Wow family and a couple of people who lived in the same apartment complex. Over time they quit coming.
I should have known something was wrong and I guess I did but I didn't bail out for a few more years mostly because I wasn't going to pursue the expected Way "progression" of taking all of the classes, going WOW, and then Corps. I went to college instead and went to Twig when I could. I had enough contacts in various Twigs that this didn't appear to be a big deal until the
early 80s or so when casual Twig attendance was seen as a sign of lack of committment. It sounded so deja vu to me that
I pulled the plug on my relationship with TWI. No one really ever conronted me about it - but I had heard that a Corps guy speak
and he was blabbing on about people being "dead wood" and if they didn't progress then they were worthless to the ministry and
stuff like that. I didn't need anyone to tell me that he was including people like me in his little speech. We had lots of people who had a life outside of TWI and wanted to keep it that way. But TWI leaders didn'tt want anyt part-timers unless you were like a celebrity or a physician, someone they could show case around - then you could came and go as you pleased and no one said anything. What hypocrisy. Any way I told a few people that I was bailing and that was it. I never went back. I still kept in contact with a few friends
and we spoke about things and they would even invite me to some events but I declined.
Edited by diazbroLink to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
Wow, diazbro, does that EVER sound familiar...
Devil spirits were everywhere and everything, more prominent than God and more powerful than the holy spirit to hear some speak. For example, I was in my intermediate class when I was attempting to interpret tongues. I had a rough going at first. So a Corps person tried casting the devil spirits out of the room.
Then I screwed up more being so nervous. I guess reinforcements must have arrived to help screw me up.
A friend of mine had the flu. He asked for prayer. He got an exorcism instead.
Stuff like that.
I questioned why the holy spirit in born-again believers could be overcome by devil spirits so that they could possess them. The holy spirit was silenced by devil spirits.
I was "misinformed", needed "correction", not "educated" enough in PFAL, and influenced, if not "possessed" by devil spirits myself to even suggest that.
I spoke to a person that left the ministry. That person was possessed and I was led by devil spirits.
Anybody else have similar experiences? Part of the Micro-management style of TWI was to rule by fear, and fear of "devil spirits". IMHO.
Eagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.