In 1983 my family and I had stopped active participation in TWI due to a dispute with our Limb Coordinator. We never gave up on Way doctrine however.
In 1990 we started making inquiries about getting involved again, since we wanted our oldest child to take PFAL. We still had contact with some "innies", who set up a meeting with the Limb Coordinators. At that meeting was the first time we heard about the split between Martindale and Geer. Previously we had heard hints about problems down in Texas, where two of my former room mates had moved after getting married, but didn't realize the size or extent of it.
Since I had not been involved for so long, all I had to go by was my LC's account of events. Obviously anyone that I talked to at twig would have decided to stick with Martindale, and had made up their mind before I ever came along. Then listening to the "Leaders' tapes" gave me more of a slanted view of how things happened. As I found out later, there were people running offshoot/splinter and independent fellowships in Lincoln and Omaha, but at the time I didn't know who they were or how to contact them, having been out of TWI circulation for years.
As you can imagine (or maybe remember) the "Leaders' tapes" left a lot out. Everything is presented from the point of view of Geer being possessed and trying to wreck "the ministry". There is no mention of Lynn, Dubofsky and others who were fired by Geer; there is no mention of the allegations of adultery; everything was presented to make it look like a failed takeover attempt.
Since I still held with most PFAL doctrine, and had no real problem with Wierwille, I decided to get back involved in TWI. I was convinced that Martindale had held off an attack of the adversary, and was thankful that the organization still existed after losing so many people.
In some respects, it was if I had never left. Twigs were still run the same way, PFAL was still the same. Not a lot had changed...that I could see.
Knowing what I know now, from my own experience and testimony from GS and other places, most active TWI people (at least in my area) were in a state of denial.
I wasn't at ROA 1989 as WordWolf was, but our twig coordinators gave me the set of tapes to listen to. I remember certain sections where Martindale talks about the people who left in very negative terms, and saying to my wife at the time that these guys just need to grow up and stop acting like junior high kids.
WordWolf mentions the mass firings and the letters. I came back after this, but had thought it odd that the BOT made little or no effort to get people out to replace the ones that they were firing. In a situation with finger-pointing and accusations like happened in TWI people tend to trust those that they know. And the people that they knew were the local leaders. These were the people who could explain their position, justify their actions, convince you of the rightness of their stance. The BOT were far away in Ohio, and didn't make an effort to explain, justify, or convince. Before the mass firings, Nebraska had a decent sized branch in Omaha, a small branch or twig area in Lincoln, and a handful of twigs in smaller towns. Most people stayed with the twigs that they were in after leaders were either quit or were fired. In the aftermath there were two small twigs in Lincoln, and one in Omaha. The new Limb Coordinator was a guy who barely had enough on the ball to be running a twig, and wouldn't have been doing even that if there had been any competition for the job.
By ROA 1990, several people who, like us, had been away from TWI for a number of years, and had missed "the fog years" started coming back. So the situation was that the leaders were people who had stuck with Martindale through the so-called fog, while the non-leaders were mainly people who were stuck back in the early eighties, or late seventies, and still expected everything to be done like in the good ol' days.
I don't remember a lot of the teaching topics, but I do remember that one of the first "grad nights" that I attended, we "worked" Christians Should Be Prosperous. They pushed really hard to get folks tithing.
There was also a lot of discussion amongst the grads about "seed of the serpent". Martindale had done a version of Dealing With the Adversary (this was sveral years before he did the Defeating the Adversary class) that concentrated on this subject. There seemed to be much more discussion and speculation on devil spirits, "seed boys", and the Athletes of the Spirit video.
I cannot address roa after 87 because that is when I started popping out children....I was always too preggers each aug to be allowed to attend.....they had started getting stricter with whom they allowed to attend.
All of my input from here on out will be from a local level.
We moved to my former home state and began twig with a man I had known and worked with since my first wow year a decade previously.
We had stayed with the ministry but were required to listen to the galations tapes....
We were promised that all would be made clear.....I was of course a new mom...so hubby had to go ....He wasn`t at all impressed.
The believers were convinced that lcm was stronger and better than ever the ministry was headed in the right direction...the past problems addressed....in short everything that we longed to hear and believe...it was safe to be lulled back to sleep.
The first year.... there was a long schmoozing period where they tried to woo my spouse back.....really catered to him......tried to convince him that he was needed....that lcm was on the right track....yadda yadda....
Thank goodness, he politely refused...simply asked to be allowed to attend fellowship.....he was carefull not to give them any ammunition to use against us.....but at the time....I was mortified because in refusing to accept new assignment or swear feality to lcm.... we were BOTH branded as spiritual losers.
I was agahst ..... even though I was still committed come hell or high water.... I was a loser....spiritually weak...yadda yadda....after decades of faithfull service on many levels...multiple wow years....corpes...you name it between the two of us........after being doulos in every meaning of the word....doing everything requested...following every directive,,,,believing that implicit obediance was the key to spirituality.....we were now lower than the rankest of unbelievers....
I BEGGED my spouse to reconsider.....the ministry needed us ....I was terrified of the repercussions of not obeying leadership.....ashamed to be relegated to a status lower than that of the rankest unbeliever....deeply ashamed.
We tried to go to fellowship and stay involved but after that first year.... the believers steadily became rude....very cold....more mistrustfull...it was like they were deliberatly trying to make us leave....
We were tolerated.... but I noticed that nobody wanted to sit by me.... The twig would make plans....but I was not invited..... I was viewed as suspicious....many felt sorry for me... knowing that I was stuck with my spouses choices...but still ditanced themselves.
I could tell that many found it hard to be mean...and would occasionally slip abd start talking to me.......
My feelings were so hurt, I was so bewildered by the growing coolness of people whom I had known and cared deeply about for for over a decade :(
I didn`t understand what was happening to these formerly loving, joyfull, spirit filled people....It was like I was standing on the sidelines watching a slow motion train wreck.....they became sullen....if I went up to the tc...he would turn his back on me and deliberatly begin a conversation with someone else :(
If I had a problem...it was viewed as my fault because my husband was blowing it....what good would prayer do if I was out of fellowship because of hubby`s lack of commitment?
The tc actually began to seath in my presence...I could tell that my very presence was driving him to the breaking point.....his jaw would lock his teeth grit...eyes cold as he would stare right past me.
We couldn`t attend roa or limb functions because of the infants and continued pregnancies....that is the only reason that I can figure out that we were not affected.....I just know that the local fellowship was moving in a direction that I couldn`t follow....no matter how hard I tried....the old rules just didn`t apply any more....I KNEW that I was the same person...I KNEW that God still cared about me.... but that didn`t change the fellowship from viewing me as a stench in the nostrills of God and being entirely offended with my presence.
I moved to SC from my hometown in Dec. 1989, due to a job promotion. I immediately hooked up with the Greenville twig (30 miles away). We had a WC man & his non-corps wife. Everything seemed fine to me. I guess I was in lala land the whole time I was in twi!!!
Anyway, a year later, I moved to AL (a tiny town, but just happened to have a believer couple, again, about 30 miles away. I do not ever recall anyone being at twig, except for me, the couple, and her daughter and the baby girl they had together. So again, I was not aware of anything going on in twi. We just had our little twig and abs and that was all.
In 1992, I moved to the Memphis, TN, area. That is when Harve and Peg came to be our BC's. Again, the only thing I remember BAD was when LCM was spewing and spitting during the obligatory tape nites. I finally left in 1993, but that is for the next thread!!!
I do not recall any letters or anything like that.
It may be repressed in my memory somewhere.
I only recall that when LCM was made president that we had to stand and repeat something. Guess it didnt mean a whole heck of alot to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, Rascal, I am also extremely sorry for what you and your family endured. What a life...... NOT!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks guys... the worst part was being afraid of what Satan was going to do to us for being outside the protection of God`s household....It was very hard not to hate my husband and harbor deep resentment for putting us in this situation...
Fortunately those were the years before m&a....I was still allowed to attend....even if it was grudgingly....I do not know what I would have done if I had been kicked out away from everyone/everything that I knew and loved.
It seemed like I was watching the heart and soul being sucked out of people during those years......I saw people that I had known for years change before my eyes......there was no joy left. I thought that maybe it was just our area....
Act2 I was in Huntsville Al during these years....can you say where you were in al maybe wknew each other.
I was a wow there during the 75-76 year, then moved back in 1999 until 2001. Guess we missed each other. I lived near Redstone in the Drake/Patton area (both times). I still love it and go there on vacation to Monte Sano, the best place on earth to get away from it all.
Rascal, I was at the other end of the state, Evergreen, AL. I never went to a limb function. I think the tc did once, if I recall correctly. He was a pharmacist and owned his own drug store. A wonderful man and family.
What I mainly remember about this time frame is that it was ' sweet,' following the mass exodus. I had an innie contact me recently to tell me how 'sweet' and tender the ministry is now--they were in our twig way back in the sweet times...waxed nostalgic about these very years.
I can say it was that same way in the very early nineties around where we were. People gave each other a break, no confrontation, no ABS required, no minimum twig attendance. People in our fellowship had lots of contact with believers who had left TWI recently, many got tapes etc from Geer and from the Way.
Most of the people in our twig were married with kids. About half were Advanced class grads or Wow vets, some had no interest in either. We all were very concerned that the Word would be available for our kids, we had a terrific children's fellowship. I believe things would have stayed positive and healthy in that little twig without the interference of leadership and the new policies that rained down from HQ. My hubby was the TC, he has never been a controlling type, we were hospitable and loved having the twig in our home, loved doing meals, picnics etc.
Interesting what you say about fellowship being "sweet" compared to current innies saying the same thing! Both times, early 90's and the last several years, The Way Int'l was attempting to recover from a catastophic series of events. From 1989 onward they were trying to recover from the blow of having the previously untouchable MOG exposed, having the MOG agree with his accuser, with there being confusion throughout the "Way Tree" and a mass exodus of leadership and rank & file. In 2001 and following TWI was trying to recover from the MOG being actually deposed and all the attendant confusion, as well as an exodus.
Perhaps in both time frames the Board of Trustees/Directors was backing off on the legalism and abuse in order to lull those who remained into a false sense of security. Secure in the knowledge that they had all made the right decision in sticking with the Trustees.
I too remember the first couple of years in the 90's being a lot more fun than what came later. Not that there were no problems, but that local areas for the most part were self-governing. People hung out together outside of twig, and it was tough to get people to go home after a twig or limb meeting.
As far as interference from the Way Corps, our LC was so ineffectual that if he tried to get pushy, people would politely smile and nod, and do whatever they wanted to do, with no follow up by the LC. In fact, the opposite was true; there were several people who saw things were too loose. They thought that "the standard of The Word" was not being adhered to, that people who had no intention of "doing The Word" were being allowed to attend twigs. The main agitators were three women who had been involved in TWI since the early 70's, including my ex-wife.
In a lot of respects things in our area had swung quite far from legalism. There were several PFAL grads who refused to even consider speaking in tongues. They hadn't SIT'd during Session Twelve, didn't see the need for it, and resisted all attempts to "lead them into" tongues. We had a sixty-ish lady who hung around mainly out of loneliness, would say, after every teaching "That was a nice lesson", but couldn't tell you what was actually taught.
We didn't do a lot of organized witnessing, but would bring folks who we thought were interested. We ran a PFAL class in late 1990, mostly for children of grads, and didn't run another during the 1989-1992 time frame. Things were laid back, but there was that undercurrent of agitation from the women I previously mentioned.
All during this time, Martindale was being portrayed as the strong leader who had stood against the forces of darkness and survived, a true heir to "Doctor" Wierwille, and worthy of our loyalty. For most of us, having missed out on the "fog", the P.O.P., and everything else that followed, our opinions were skewed by lack of information. We were not given all the facts and didn't really know where we could go to get them.
During this time, Martindale was usually yelling whenever he taught. At the time, fooled as I was, I thought that the yelling showed how serious he was about "The Word". The yelling hadn't filtered down to the twigs yet.
Yes, I have to ditto the above. we were still a loving ministry then..lots of gatherings at branch and limb levels. we had 7 fellowships in our branch which was about 20 miles wide and long as far as distance. a realy hot area...I remember asking folksabout why LCM was talking bad about JL. I was gone between 83 and 90. I still thought all those years it was VPW minstry..duh..
Rascal, I was at the other end of the state, Evergreen, AL. I never went to a limb function. I think the tc did once, if I recall correctly. He was a pharmacist and owned his own drug store. A wonderful man and family.
M*dford H.? I think that was his name. He lived at the limb in Bham in the late 70s with Ell#n He**ing 4th corps, M*cky Wi**ens, and a some others, nice guy. He was originally from Evergreen.
BackForty, yes, you are correct. I also rented his house that he owned in Evergreen. He & family had lived in McKenzie, then later I heard that they had bought a drug store in Georgiana. Dont know if they still live in McKenzie or where.
I don't know that I was saying that it was a loving ministry, but that the atmosphere appeared that way, kind of a calm before the storm kind of thing. Looking back, the BOT were laying low, so to speak, until they could reinstitute their controlling policies.
The tide changed when the plans were laid for an "Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits", held at Headquarters. The first few days of the class turned out to be the filming of the new class, Defeating the Adversary. A large portion of the class turned out to an exposition on the Book of Job, focussing on the "miserable comforters", and the fourth guy (whose name escapes me), who he declared was "seed of the serpent", that Martindale laid the foundation for in "The Leadership Tapes".
The second part of the class was a disjointed walk through Martindale's files, where he "identified" people in politics, music, sports, etc, who were "seed of the serpent" or possessed. This is also where he introduced the concept that "discerning of spirits" was not necessarily revelation, but that possession could be identified purely by observed characteristics.
In 1983 my family and I had stopped active participation in TWI due to a dispute with our Limb Coordinator. We never gave up on Way doctrine however.
In 1990 we started making inquiries about getting involved again, since we wanted our oldest child to take PFAL. We still had contact with some "innies", who set up a meeting with the Limb Coordinators. At that meeting was the first time we heard about the split between Martindale and Geer. Previously we had heard hints about problems down in Texas, where two of my former room mates had moved after getting married, but didn't realize the size or extent of it.
I was in Texas in 1989. Having received "The Letter" to the Corps, I felt that the time had come to leave. It helped that I had left the ministry about 2 years before that for about a year - so I knew that debbul spurts weren't going to decend on hy home in droves.
It also helped that our whole branch was just about ready to leave. There had been a teaching where lcm had taught about "The Rock" he sad that God was the Rock - vpw had said Jesus Christ was the Rock ( or vice versa) and the teacher had said that lcm had fonally done the unforgiveable - taught that JC was God. (Mind you, a lot of us were looking for justification to leave - just because we felt that to be truly self propogating and self governing we had to leave.
Shortly after that a fairly new corps grad was very upset and must have gone to some meeting because she just kept on repeating that we all swore that we would follow lcm. Someone was in the area doing damage control for twi - as I remember it it was a fairly low level tc that had found a quick way to move up the food chain.
I wonder Oakie - what was the "trouble in Texas" it would be interesting to hear it from twi's point of view....
So may I ask again? What was it you heard - that Texas had a mass exodus? (Ithink it did) We ceceded! And the fact that we were so far from hq's reach made TX very hard to control. I would have left no matter what - but I dont think it was so easy to replace leadership down here.
Again, it would be interesting to know how y'all heard it.....LOL
Nothing specific, just that some people had left and that those that left were still having meetings, teachings, witnessing, etc. One thing that I was told was that "HQ could move the Word in Ohio, we're going to move the Word in Texas".
As far as being hard to control, I don't think that any area couild be controlled without the cooperation of local WC. After all, they were the way the control had always been administered.
When there is an en masse walk-out, or firing, and the structure of twigs, branches, etc is carried over, what most people came to twigs for still exists. they don't have to get involved in battles, they just continue on as before. In doing the mass firings, the BOT just made it easier for parrellel organizations to flourish.
I always wonder at the way people talk about the WC as if they(we) were vpw's personal inforcers.
I was corps and was never felt like I was the secret service or anything. maybe I wasn't high enough up the totem pole or something.
Anyway there were some good people in the corps.. I am often saddened to see someone I went through residence with talked about badly. Many of these people were good people but they were changed, hardened. Granted perhaps they started out power hungry and chose their road - but when I knew a lot ot these folks they were fun-loving and goofy - just like the rest of us.
Anyway, didn't mean to derail - carry one everyone...
Recommended Posts
Oakspear
In 1983 my family and I had stopped active participation in TWI due to a dispute with our Limb Coordinator. We never gave up on Way doctrine however.
In 1990 we started making inquiries about getting involved again, since we wanted our oldest child to take PFAL. We still had contact with some "innies", who set up a meeting with the Limb Coordinators. At that meeting was the first time we heard about the split between Martindale and Geer. Previously we had heard hints about problems down in Texas, where two of my former room mates had moved after getting married, but didn't realize the size or extent of it.
Since I had not been involved for so long, all I had to go by was my LC's account of events. Obviously anyone that I talked to at twig would have decided to stick with Martindale, and had made up their mind before I ever came along. Then listening to the "Leaders' tapes" gave me more of a slanted view of how things happened. As I found out later, there were people running offshoot/splinter and independent fellowships in Lincoln and Omaha, but at the time I didn't know who they were or how to contact them, having been out of TWI circulation for years.
As you can imagine (or maybe remember) the "Leaders' tapes" left a lot out. Everything is presented from the point of view of Geer being possessed and trying to wreck "the ministry". There is no mention of Lynn, Dubofsky and others who were fired by Geer; there is no mention of the allegations of adultery; everything was presented to make it look like a failed takeover attempt.
Since I still held with most PFAL doctrine, and had no real problem with Wierwille, I decided to get back involved in TWI. I was convinced that Martindale had held off an attack of the adversary, and was thankful that the organization still existed after losing so many people.
In some respects, it was if I had never left. Twigs were still run the same way, PFAL was still the same. Not a lot had changed...that I could see.
As time went by I would change my assessment.
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I was going to make just 1989-1990 one thread, since so many people
left in that "year".
In April 1989, after all the leadership/corps were asked to swear
an oath of allegiance to craig, a letter was sent out to EVERYONE.
That letter was identical in every state, except the names were
changed. Basically, it said that
"some leaders in your state are evil and are abusing their offices
as leaders, so we fired them. By name, they are (names)."
The irony on that is that the people abusing their offices as leaders
were the ones doing the firings.
The bland, non-specific nature of the claims, and the flat addition
of all these people-whom, locally, had EARNED respect-
made the letter highly suspicious at best. It looked like a form
letter but was claiming not to be.
(Little did I know it was the same in structure as the letter
that was presented to the bot by cg a few years earlier-
vague accusations lacking specifics.)
With that, believers in a lot of locations now had more confidence
in the people being fired than in the people doing the firing.
Some sent letters asking specifically what their leaders did. twi sent back
form letters saying, in essence, "don't worry about that-just trust us
without question."
So, about 4 out of every 5 believers walked. twi themselves made this
a LOT easier, by dismissing all the leaders at once, thus ensuring anyone
who left had a ready-to-use support structure to utilize.
I dropped in on Rock of Ages '89. My intentions were to see things
for myself, and handle things for myself. If things went well, apologies
would be issued and I'd be RIGHT THERE when they were. If things went
badly, I would use this one last chance to buy out the bookstore.
I had also attended ROA '88. Now, I had heard ROA's had been decreasing
in quality steadily starting 1985. I had heard 87 was hardly worthy to be
compared to 86. I attended ROA 88, and had a good time. I had nothing to
compare it to, but it seemed to be worth attending. Events did not seem
forced, and there were many joyful people showing spontaneous joy.
ROA '89 was far short of that. ROA '89 was like someone trying to put on
an ROA after a description of ROA '88. Everything seemed forced and
mechanical. There were errors (obvious errors) in the keynote teachings,
and EVERYTHING-I mean EVERYTHING-invoked either the current bot
or the wierwille family. And the constant "stand for the leader" thing got
SO blatant, overused and cliche, that at one point, Howard Allen himself
signalled people not to stand for him. (It seemed like he thought he'd
gotten ENOUGH forced adulation for one day or something.) In fact,
that struck me as the LEAST-rehearsed, most spontaneous gesture all
week. One consistent hallmark was that the keynote teaching was
ALWAYS preceeded by a song where we were asked to stand for the song,
and the keynote speaker came out during the song's closing while
we were still singing. The net result was them basically "tricking" people
into standing for the speaker. That struck me as plastic and rehearsed.
ROA 89, actually, is worth several more posts.
The amount of monitoring of conversations and groupthink was amazing.
I met a complete stranger who was a new student on the last night,
and explained a few things to him-not hitting him with everything.
One of the first things I said was that conversations were being listened
in on. We spoke and walked a bit, then one comment I made was rebutted
by a monitoring resident corps person-who had no idea he just proved all
my EARLIER points by showing he was listening in.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Knowing what I know now, from my own experience and testimony from GS and other places, most active TWI people (at least in my area) were in a state of denial.
I wasn't at ROA 1989 as WordWolf was, but our twig coordinators gave me the set of tapes to listen to. I remember certain sections where Martindale talks about the people who left in very negative terms, and saying to my wife at the time that these guys just need to grow up and stop acting like junior high kids.
WordWolf mentions the mass firings and the letters. I came back after this, but had thought it odd that the BOT made little or no effort to get people out to replace the ones that they were firing. In a situation with finger-pointing and accusations like happened in TWI people tend to trust those that they know. And the people that they knew were the local leaders. These were the people who could explain their position, justify their actions, convince you of the rightness of their stance. The BOT were far away in Ohio, and didn't make an effort to explain, justify, or convince. Before the mass firings, Nebraska had a decent sized branch in Omaha, a small branch or twig area in Lincoln, and a handful of twigs in smaller towns. Most people stayed with the twigs that they were in after leaders were either quit or were fired. In the aftermath there were two small twigs in Lincoln, and one in Omaha. The new Limb Coordinator was a guy who barely had enough on the ball to be running a twig, and wouldn't have been doing even that if there had been any competition for the job.
By ROA 1990, several people who, like us, had been away from TWI for a number of years, and had missed "the fog years" started coming back. So the situation was that the leaders were people who had stuck with Martindale through the so-called fog, while the non-leaders were mainly people who were stuck back in the early eighties, or late seventies, and still expected everything to be done like in the good ol' days.
I don't remember a lot of the teaching topics, but I do remember that one of the first "grad nights" that I attended, we "worked" Christians Should Be Prosperous. They pushed really hard to get folks tithing.
There was also a lot of discussion amongst the grads about "seed of the serpent". Martindale had done a version of Dealing With the Adversary (this was sveral years before he did the Defeating the Adversary class) that concentrated on this subject. There seemed to be much more discussion and speculation on devil spirits, "seed boys", and the Athletes of the Spirit video.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I cannot address roa after 87 because that is when I started popping out children....I was always too preggers each aug to be allowed to attend.....they had started getting stricter with whom they allowed to attend.
All of my input from here on out will be from a local level.
We moved to my former home state and began twig with a man I had known and worked with since my first wow year a decade previously.
We had stayed with the ministry but were required to listen to the galations tapes....
We were promised that all would be made clear.....I was of course a new mom...so hubby had to go ....He wasn`t at all impressed.
The believers were convinced that lcm was stronger and better than ever the ministry was headed in the right direction...the past problems addressed....in short everything that we longed to hear and believe...it was safe to be lulled back to sleep.
The first year.... there was a long schmoozing period where they tried to woo my spouse back.....really catered to him......tried to convince him that he was needed....that lcm was on the right track....yadda yadda....
Thank goodness, he politely refused...simply asked to be allowed to attend fellowship.....he was carefull not to give them any ammunition to use against us.....but at the time....I was mortified because in refusing to accept new assignment or swear feality to lcm.... we were BOTH branded as spiritual losers.
I was agahst ..... even though I was still committed come hell or high water.... I was a loser....spiritually weak...yadda yadda....after decades of faithfull service on many levels...multiple wow years....corpes...you name it between the two of us........after being doulos in every meaning of the word....doing everything requested...following every directive,,,,believing that implicit obediance was the key to spirituality.....we were now lower than the rankest of unbelievers....
I BEGGED my spouse to reconsider.....the ministry needed us ....I was terrified of the repercussions of not obeying leadership.....ashamed to be relegated to a status lower than that of the rankest unbeliever....deeply ashamed.
We tried to go to fellowship and stay involved but after that first year.... the believers steadily became rude....very cold....more mistrustfull...it was like they were deliberatly trying to make us leave....
We were tolerated.... but I noticed that nobody wanted to sit by me.... The twig would make plans....but I was not invited..... I was viewed as suspicious....many felt sorry for me... knowing that I was stuck with my spouses choices...but still ditanced themselves.
I could tell that many found it hard to be mean...and would occasionally slip abd start talking to me.......
My feelings were so hurt, I was so bewildered by the growing coolness of people whom I had known and cared deeply about for for over a decade :(
I didn`t understand what was happening to these formerly loving, joyfull, spirit filled people....It was like I was standing on the sidelines watching a slow motion train wreck.....they became sullen....if I went up to the tc...he would turn his back on me and deliberatly begin a conversation with someone else :(
If I had a problem...it was viewed as my fault because my husband was blowing it....what good would prayer do if I was out of fellowship because of hubby`s lack of commitment?
The tc actually began to seath in my presence...I could tell that my very presence was driving him to the breaking point.....his jaw would lock his teeth grit...eyes cold as he would stare right past me.
We couldn`t attend roa or limb functions because of the infants and continued pregnancies....that is the only reason that I can figure out that we were not affected.....I just know that the local fellowship was moving in a direction that I couldn`t follow....no matter how hard I tried....the old rules just didn`t apply any more....I KNEW that I was the same person...I KNEW that God still cared about me.... but that didn`t change the fellowship from viewing me as a stench in the nostrills of God and being entirely offended with my presence.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
Gee, Rascal, that sounds awful.
I'm still dumbfounded when I read of stuff like this.
So sorry you had to go through that b.s.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
act2
I moved to SC from my hometown in Dec. 1989, due to a job promotion. I immediately hooked up with the Greenville twig (30 miles away). We had a WC man & his non-corps wife. Everything seemed fine to me. I guess I was in lala land the whole time I was in twi!!!
Anyway, a year later, I moved to AL (a tiny town, but just happened to have a believer couple, again, about 30 miles away. I do not ever recall anyone being at twig, except for me, the couple, and her daughter and the baby girl they had together. So again, I was not aware of anything going on in twi. We just had our little twig and abs and that was all.
In 1992, I moved to the Memphis, TN, area. That is when Harve and Peg came to be our BC's. Again, the only thing I remember BAD was when LCM was spewing and spitting during the obligatory tape nites. I finally left in 1993, but that is for the next thread!!!
I do not recall any letters or anything like that.
It may be repressed in my memory somewhere.
I only recall that when LCM was made president that we had to stand and repeat something. Guess it didnt mean a whole heck of alot to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, Rascal, I am also extremely sorry for what you and your family endured. What a life...... NOT!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by act2Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Thanks guys... the worst part was being afraid of what Satan was going to do to us for being outside the protection of God`s household....It was very hard not to hate my husband and harbor deep resentment for putting us in this situation...
Fortunately those were the years before m&a....I was still allowed to attend....even if it was grudgingly....I do not know what I would have done if I had been kicked out away from everyone/everything that I knew and loved.
It seemed like I was watching the heart and soul being sucked out of people during those years......I saw people that I had known for years change before my eyes......there was no joy left. I thought that maybe it was just our area....
Act2 I was in Huntsville Al during these years....can you say where you were in al maybe wknew each other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
moony3424
When were you in Huntsville? That's where I was a WOW and then moved back years later.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Yeah? I was witnessed to in h`ville as a teenager...in 79 and lived there on and off through the 80s..and returned for the first part of the 90s.
When were you there? Do we know each other?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
moony3424
I was a wow there during the 75-76 year, then moved back in 1999 until 2001. Guess we missed each other. I lived near Redstone in the Drake/Patton area (both times). I still love it and go there on vacation to Monte Sano, the best place on earth to get away from it all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
act2
Rascal, I was at the other end of the state, Evergreen, AL. I never went to a limb function. I think the tc did once, if I recall correctly. He was a pharmacist and owned his own drug store. A wonderful man and family.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Sorry word wolf and oak....last derail ... I am sorry....I will take it to pm :)
Mooney, I was there and involved then... I am sure that we have met.........thanks acts2 ...I guess that we didn`t know each other then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
What I mainly remember about this time frame is that it was ' sweet,' following the mass exodus. I had an innie contact me recently to tell me how 'sweet' and tender the ministry is now--they were in our twig way back in the sweet times...waxed nostalgic about these very years.
I can say it was that same way in the very early nineties around where we were. People gave each other a break, no confrontation, no ABS required, no minimum twig attendance. People in our fellowship had lots of contact with believers who had left TWI recently, many got tapes etc from Geer and from the Way.
Most of the people in our twig were married with kids. About half were Advanced class grads or Wow vets, some had no interest in either. We all were very concerned that the Word would be available for our kids, we had a terrific children's fellowship. I believe things would have stayed positive and healthy in that little twig without the interference of leadership and the new policies that rained down from HQ. My hubby was the TC, he has never been a controlling type, we were hospitable and loved having the twig in our home, loved doing meals, picnics etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Bramble:
Interesting what you say about fellowship being "sweet" compared to current innies saying the same thing! Both times, early 90's and the last several years, The Way Int'l was attempting to recover from a catastophic series of events. From 1989 onward they were trying to recover from the blow of having the previously untouchable MOG exposed, having the MOG agree with his accuser, with there being confusion throughout the "Way Tree" and a mass exodus of leadership and rank & file. In 2001 and following TWI was trying to recover from the MOG being actually deposed and all the attendant confusion, as well as an exodus.
Perhaps in both time frames the Board of Trustees/Directors was backing off on the legalism and abuse in order to lull those who remained into a false sense of security. Secure in the knowledge that they had all made the right decision in sticking with the Trustees.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I too remember the first couple of years in the 90's being a lot more fun than what came later. Not that there were no problems, but that local areas for the most part were self-governing. People hung out together outside of twig, and it was tough to get people to go home after a twig or limb meeting.
As far as interference from the Way Corps, our LC was so ineffectual that if he tried to get pushy, people would politely smile and nod, and do whatever they wanted to do, with no follow up by the LC. In fact, the opposite was true; there were several people who saw things were too loose. They thought that "the standard of The Word" was not being adhered to, that people who had no intention of "doing The Word" were being allowed to attend twigs. The main agitators were three women who had been involved in TWI since the early 70's, including my ex-wife.
In a lot of respects things in our area had swung quite far from legalism. There were several PFAL grads who refused to even consider speaking in tongues. They hadn't SIT'd during Session Twelve, didn't see the need for it, and resisted all attempts to "lead them into" tongues. We had a sixty-ish lady who hung around mainly out of loneliness, would say, after every teaching "That was a nice lesson", but couldn't tell you what was actually taught.
We didn't do a lot of organized witnessing, but would bring folks who we thought were interested. We ran a PFAL class in late 1990, mostly for children of grads, and didn't run another during the 1989-1992 time frame. Things were laid back, but there was that undercurrent of agitation from the women I previously mentioned.
All during this time, Martindale was being portrayed as the strong leader who had stood against the forces of darkness and survived, a true heir to "Doctor" Wierwille, and worthy of our loyalty. For most of us, having missed out on the "fog", the P.O.P., and everything else that followed, our opinions were skewed by lack of information. We were not given all the facts and didn't really know where we could go to get them.
During this time, Martindale was usually yelling whenever he taught. At the time, fooled as I was, I thought that the yelling showed how serious he was about "The Word". The yelling hadn't filtered down to the twigs yet.
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Yes, I have to ditto the above. we were still a loving ministry then..lots of gatherings at branch and limb levels. we had 7 fellowships in our branch which was about 20 miles wide and long as far as distance. a realy hot area...I remember asking folksabout why LCM was talking bad about JL. I was gone between 83 and 90. I still thought all those years it was VPW minstry..duh..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BackForty
M*dford H.? I think that was his name. He lived at the limb in Bham in the late 70s with Ell#n He**ing 4th corps, M*cky Wi**ens, and a some others, nice guy. He was originally from Evergreen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
act2
BackForty, yes, you are correct. I also rented his house that he owned in Evergreen. He & family had lived in McKenzie, then later I heard that they had bought a drug store in Georgiana. Dont know if they still live in McKenzie or where.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I don't know that I was saying that it was a loving ministry, but that the atmosphere appeared that way, kind of a calm before the storm kind of thing. Looking back, the BOT were laying low, so to speak, until they could reinstitute their controlling policies.
The tide changed when the plans were laid for an "Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits", held at Headquarters. The first few days of the class turned out to be the filming of the new class, Defeating the Adversary. A large portion of the class turned out to an exposition on the Book of Job, focussing on the "miserable comforters", and the fourth guy (whose name escapes me), who he declared was "seed of the serpent", that Martindale laid the foundation for in "The Leadership Tapes".
The second part of the class was a disjointed walk through Martindale's files, where he "identified" people in politics, music, sports, etc, who were "seed of the serpent" or possessed. This is also where he introduced the concept that "discerning of spirits" was not necessarily revelation, but that possession could be identified purely by observed characteristics.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I was in Texas in 1989. Having received "The Letter" to the Corps, I felt that the time had come to leave. It helped that I had left the ministry about 2 years before that for about a year - so I knew that debbul spurts weren't going to decend on hy home in droves.
It also helped that our whole branch was just about ready to leave. There had been a teaching where lcm had taught about "The Rock" he sad that God was the Rock - vpw had said Jesus Christ was the Rock ( or vice versa) and the teacher had said that lcm had fonally done the unforgiveable - taught that JC was God. (Mind you, a lot of us were looking for justification to leave - just because we felt that to be truly self propogating and self governing we had to leave.
Shortly after that a fairly new corps grad was very upset and must have gone to some meeting because she just kept on repeating that we all swore that we would follow lcm. Someone was in the area doing damage control for twi - as I remember it it was a fairly low level tc that had found a quick way to move up the food chain.
I wonder Oakie - what was the "trouble in Texas" it would be interesting to hear it from twi's point of view....
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Actually, i didn't hear about the "trouble in Texas" from TWI, I heard about it from a couple who had left.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
So may I ask again? What was it you heard - that Texas had a mass exodus? (Ithink it did) We ceceded! And the fact that we were so far from hq's reach made TX very hard to control. I would have left no matter what - but I dont think it was so easy to replace leadership down here.
Again, it would be interesting to know how y'all heard it.....LOL
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I...heard...about...it...from...a...couple...who...had...left
Nothing specific, just that some people had left and that those that left were still having meetings, teachings, witnessing, etc. One thing that I was told was that "HQ could move the Word in Ohio, we're going to move the Word in Texas".
As far as being hard to control, I don't think that any area couild be controlled without the cooperation of local WC. After all, they were the way the control had always been administered.
When there is an en masse walk-out, or firing, and the structure of twigs, branches, etc is carried over, what most people came to twigs for still exists. they don't have to get involved in battles, they just continue on as before. In doing the mass firings, the BOT just made it easier for parrellel organizations to flourish.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Ok sorry I was so insistant.
I always wonder at the way people talk about the WC as if they(we) were vpw's personal inforcers.
I was corps and was never felt like I was the secret service or anything. maybe I wasn't high enough up the totem pole or something.
Anyway there were some good people in the corps.. I am often saddened to see someone I went through residence with talked about badly. Many of these people were good people but they were changed, hardened. Granted perhaps they started out power hungry and chose their road - but when I knew a lot ot these folks they were fun-loving and goofy - just like the rest of us.
Anyway, didn't mean to derail - carry one everyone...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.