Justification

[Belle]

I've been thinking a lot lately about how I justified staying involved and how good my ex is at justifying the actions of craig (he won't believe anything bad about vee pee). I still am not articulate enough to counter those justifications, but I sure do know how much wonderful life is outside the confinement of TWI and all its rules, legalism, boredom and lack of affection and lack of genuine friendships.

WordWolf posted a link in another thread that I read with fascination and followed that link to another link: People Aren't Perfect

My ex used to quote Boob Moneyhands "The ministry would be perfect if it weren't for people. People aren't perfect." This article handles that justification. This is an excerpt with the leaders' names replaced by the names we relate to. (The entire website, actually seems to be really good with good information on recovery - I still marvel at how many groups there are like TWI out there.)

************************************************

So what is the answer to "none of God's servants are perfect"? Bible students will notice that the qualifications for a servant of God are made clear in I Timothy 3:1-10 and Titus 1:6-8 (also I Peter 5:3).

"A bishop then must be blameless...." (vs. 2)

Even though any of God's servants will undoubtedly be blamed for things if they hold an office in the church, the important thing is that the accusation must not be found to be true. In vee pee’s case, craig’s case, rfr’s case, many accusations were leveled against them and found to be true. (The same can be said for an disproportionately large number of TWI leaders)

"Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (vs. 7)

To have a "good report" is to have a good reputation.

The words, "them which are without" refers to those who are outside the church. In other words, if a man has a bad reputation on the outside, he is not a candidate to be an overseer in the church. Such a man would end up causing shame to the name of Christ. vee pee and craig had a bad report from without the church. I suspect rfr does too.

In I Timothy 4:11-12 the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy to be an example to the other believers in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, and in purity.

And II Timothy 2:19 says, "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

"All that a minister has got is his character; mark that. If you take character away from a minister, you take away all that he has got."

~ Dwight L. Moody (1837-1899)

Wasn't the Biblical David--and even Judas Iscariot--imperfect?

This is another clever reasoning that is used in order to justify someone as being "used by God" and having "God's truths."

First, it is the Bible that gives the requirements for an apostle (mentioned above). As far as Judas Iscariot being an apostle that "sinned," how many would want to follow him as an example? Judas could have gone to God or Jesus and repented. Did he? Faith and obedience go together. Judas did not have this faith. He even exemplified his greed by his protest against breaking the box of ointment, stealing from the money for the poor, bargaining to betray Jesus and then concealing his treachery. He was no longer a disciple after he betrayed Jesus. Judas revealed his true nature, and so do abusive, deceptive, authoritarian leaders that claim to "speak for God" but whose fruit testifies otherwise.

Some also use David in the Bible as an "example of sinning." The answer is that David had a firm and unshakable trust in God. He was grieved when confronted with his sins and displayed strong efforts to return to God all the more loyally after his errors and transgressions. David's errors stand out because of their rarity. He sinned, but he didn't live in sin, and that is the difference.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (I John 3:7).

Furthermore, David had a passion and love for God that is seldom found today, and when he sinned, the Bible shows he humbly confessed it and turned from that sin. Until any of us deal with the sin in our life, communication with God is cut off.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (I John 1:6).

What about Peter?

Some will say that Peter, who was the first Apostle to open the door to the Gentiles, made mistakes and was still used by God. Yes, but do we find the Bible glossing over those incidents? For instance, Peter and Barnabas, along with the other Jewish Christians, were severely reprimanded and rebuked publicly for hypocrisy (denying by their actions that both believing Jews and Gentiles were accepted equally on the basis of Christ's death and resurrection). The Apostle Paul tells us:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" (Galatians 2:11).

Regarding Peter and his companions, Paul said:

"... I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (Galatians 2:14).

We do not see this incident swept under the rug, nor do we see these men making this same error again. Why, then, are the sins of the founders of deceptive, exploitive groups always covered up and excuses made for them?

"...The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

~ II Timothy 2:19

[Belle]

Fruits of false leaders:

Vee pee, craig and rfr never admitted to anyone that they were wrong. They had an attitude of arrogance and pride and would not even listen to those who tried to correct them. … The Word of God shows us that if anyone has the mind of Christ … there will be good fruit produced and there will be a true turning from sin. vee pee and craig

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ..." (I John 3:10)

Ministers who complained, or asked hard questions about these things, were fired.

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others may also fear" (I Timothy 5:20).

Great harm can be done to a church by sin in the life of its leaders." ~ J. Vernon McGee

Are we to remain in a group and fellowship with such leaders who have lifted up vee pee, craig and rfr? Are we to follow hypocrites? Should we allow these "ministers" to rule over us and pay homage to them? The Word of God is clear:

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat" (I Cor. 5:11).

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (II Timothy 3:5)

After everything this article has touched on, why would members want to defend vee pee, craig and rfr’s sins, or believe that they could ever have been "used by God"? Because no one wants to admit that they have been deceived and conned by a hypocritical, fraudulent "minister of God" who headed a religious cult and got away with it. It is very uncomfortable to believe any new information that contradicts what one has previously believed; therefore it is easier to discount it, or excuse it away and hold to the belief that, afterall, vee pee was teaching "God's truths."

It's time we reflect on HWA's religious roots, how he made use of Lifton's Eight Criteria of Mind Control, how people were recruited into the WCG and even how he studied the techniques in Adolph Hitler's book, Mein Kampf! Many of these same methods and tactics are being used by "one true church" ministers to this very day; i.e., Philadelphia Church of God and Living Church of God. HWA and GTA believed they were "above the Law." Where in the Word of God are we taught such a concept? Let us not have a lack of understanding in holding to the idea that these men, whose life produced nothing but bad fruit, were ever "used by God" in any way whatsoever. HWA's teachings were a system of bondage that led to abuse and devastation of lives. Totalistic groups that follow in his footsteps are guilty of the same.

"Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God." ~ III John 11

Our prayer is that all who read this article will be discerning and that the Holy Spirit will reveal the freedom and peace which is found in Christ Jesus alone through His abundant grace.

Information compiled by Exit & Support Network™

Updated October 30, 2004

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

~ II Corinthians 11: 13

[dmiller]

B)

[Abigail]

Belle, it isn't about being articulate, it's about "fuzzy logic". You can't argue with an innie because their "logic" isn't logical, but due they don't see their cognative dissodence - it's called denial.

[themex]

Sweet...

The brains of the innes are or were fried, so it is impossible that they may see the truth of the facts and God´s Word. :wub:

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

Sweet...

The brains of the innes are or were fried, so it is impossible that they may see the truth of the facts and God´s Word. :wub:

well yes mex most of our minds were fried

and lots of us saw the truth and ran like hell to get out of the corn field l

[rascal]

Very very good belle, thanks.

These men were completely unworthey of our trust. I know that I read those scriptures....but never dreamed that it applied to OUR leaders in OUR ministry :(

It is the only thing that really makes sense.... otherwise, our experience would seem to tell us that God is unworthey of our trust.

[Belle]

Just a quick summary. I get so tired of hearing the innies I speak with justifying staying in TWI because "people aren't perfect." Maybe not, but they shouldn't be anywhere near as corrupt as the TWIt leadership is!

The qualifications for a servant of God are made clear in I Timothy 3:1-10 and Titus 1:6-8 (also I Peter 5:3).

- Even though any of God's servants will undoubtedly be blamed for things if they hold an office in the church, the important thing is that the accusation must not be found to be true.

- If a man has a bad reputation on the outside, he is not a candidate to be an overseer in the church. Such a man would end up causing shame to the name of Christ.

- As far as Judas Iscariot being an apostle that "sinned," how many would want to follow him as an example? Judas could have gone to God or Jesus and repented. Did he? Judas revealed his true nature, and so do abusive, deceptive, authoritarian leaders that claim to "speak for God" but whose fruit testifies otherwise.

- David's errors stand out because of their rarity. He sinned, but he didn't live in sin, and that is the difference.

- We do not see incidents swept under the rug, nor do we see these men making this same error again. Why, then, are the sins of the founders of deceptive, exploitive groups always covered up and excuses made for them?

Fruits of false leaders:

Vee pee, craig and rfr never admitted to anyone that they were wrong. They had an attitude of arrogance and pride and would not even listen to those who tried to correct them. … The Word of God shows us that if anyone has the mind of Christ … there will be good fruit produced and there will be a true turning from sin.

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat" (I Cor. 5:11).

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (II Timothy 3:5)

[DaddyHoundog]

at lunch here---so here is my quickie thought

they towted (sp?) error in judgement as okay...and error in heart not.

Problem with that is who jusdges what is an error in heart.

It is implosive by its very logic

and---justification was the same way becasue the standards always chnged...in sports we say ---the line moved

Washingtonweather

Edited January 17, 2006 by DaddyHoundog