I reached 8,000 posts here, and swore to myself that I would do *other things*
(like re-discover fiddle) for a month or so,
but this thread absolutely begged for a response on my part.
Geo -- you know Mary, and you know me. She and I were splitting up about the time you met Suz. Like I've said before -- I was jealous of you for finding love, when mine was being dashed like so many waves of Lake Superior on the rocks that line the shoreline up here.
She and I ended up divorced, but the difference between you and I is that I saw it coming, from a mile away. We were together for 10 years -- turbulent at times, but good ones none-the-less. She *dropped* all the hints that women do, and when I (in my ignorance) didn't pick up on them, she bluntly said "we need to go to a counsellor".
So -- I agreed, but guess what? The ONE night *available* to her for counseling was Wednesday nights.
Remember Sir Ben's?? And the bluegrass jams held there every Wednesday night? That was the ONE night of the week that I was *busy*, yet that was the ONE night that she had free from her weaving, spinning, yada, yada groups that she was involved with.
Somehow I got castigated as the bad guy for not wanting to go on my night out, while she felt perfectly comfortable hanging on to her *commitments*, and expecting me to dump mine.
Short of the long of it is -- I gave up my Wednesday night jam sessions to go to those sessions, and they produced no fruit. Matter of fact --- the bozo running the session suggested a *trial separation* so we could each live apart from each other, and contemplate.
Well -- when I heard that, and her acceptance of it, I knew it was the *kiss of death*.
I think you know the rest.... I ended up in that way home with Chr*s Granl*ch, and he made no bones about tellng me how fugged up I was, for not taking control
Fast forward 21 years ---- She and I still speak to each other. She is re-married, and I am not. We still update each other on our respective families, because we each know the other is truely interested.
Like someone else here said -- it does get better. It hurts at first, and it is the first few months/years that are the worst. Some find others in the mix, and some do not.
I don't buy it, the deal where the lunk-headed guy just doesn't see it coming.
I've been that guy (I know girls, hard to believe), the one that said, "But, but, I thought I had a few more straws left to go." I thought I could always make it up to her, maybe with flowers, or discount jewelry (guaranteed to appraise for more than the selling price!).
That was a long time ago. But it hasn't taken me all this time to figure out what happened. All I really had to do was get past wanting to kill the b#tch (or myself) and then I could think clearly again. That took a month or two. Or three.
What sucks about understanding, and the reason we don't put that much effort into it, is that you don't feel any better once you do. You may even feel worse.
And it's not because you see how grotesquely unequal to life a spiteful (though non-existent) God has made you, that you feel worse. If only it were. There's nothing like a powerful dose of self-loathing to make us feel better about our real selves! "I wish I were the man I know to be!" - Adolf H. Wierwille
The really sucky thing is when we understand just how equal we were to winning, continually winning, her love. We realize it didn't have to happen, but now it's too late. "Something inside has died, and I can't hide, and I just can't fake it." - Carole King
A lot of guys treat women like a juke box. When the music stops, we stick in another coin, which is to say, whatever we can get away with - whatever it takes to get the music to play again.
We delude ourselves into thinking that pleasing her from time to time is what keeps her happy, and that makes her want to keep us happy, which is all we really care about, George. But she wants to be happy too. And she's not a jukebox. She could make the music play long after we've run out of coins, if she's happy. We delude ourselves, but we know better. It's often called "denial." We do know better.
It's not what we do, which might momentarily please her, but who we are that makes her happy. Or not so happy. She once loved a guy who was just so. What was that? Funny, confident, tender, "cute," strong, reliable, fun, intimate, and a hundred other things that made us special to them.
Yes George, we're flawed. (I'm sure his wife can find a few holes in "socks," too, but that's what yarn is for, darn it, and he's got plenty, ain't he?)
Uh, where was I? We're flawed. Always were, always will be. But it's not the flaws that make her unhappy. It's a shift in the balance of our qualities and flaws, perfections and imperfections... toward the flaws, the imperfections. Maybe it's one BIG one, or maybe it's all of them, but the imperfections take over.
If we coudn't help it, she'd forgive us. We know how maternal they are sometimes. But we CAN help it, and we don't, and that says "I DON'T LOVE YOU," loud and clear. Whether or not it's true, by the way. Often it's not true, or we don't think so. Sometimes, it is true, and we just haven't figured it out yet.
Okay, we're tired. It isn't easy being at our best. We have big shoes to fill. (Ours.)
So we gradually loosen the belt, and the priorities, and we forget that she's tired too, and rather than helping her, we're asking her to carry more and more of the relationship while giving her less and less of a reason to do it.
I've tried to take this lesson to heart. It cost plenty to learn. No lie. The lesson is still fresh, more than twenty years later. And yet I constantly remind myself.
Thanks George, you do help, I would gladly take your suggestion, however spouse will not consider it.....
It isn`t that I haven`t tried repeatedly........ He has been reading some interesting books on marriage and communication lately... and though there are a whole host of underlying problems that need to be addressed....the books seem to be helping him....it helps to know that at least he is beginning to try....
Sometimes it is too little too late. I certainly would not divorce him to try again with someone else....that would be silly.
I personally do not understand marrying someone that you are not willing to love..... not only do you deny that person the love that is so necessary ...but in marrying them, you effectively cut your mate off from ever recieving it any where else.
It seems very sad to be condemned to live a lifetime with no love simply because you made a commitment and a vow....and are afraid that God will be mad if you break it.
Like I said, I admire the people who recognise a bad fit early enough to correct it. I know a lot of people who are blissfully happy in their second marriage...... How sd to stay in a miserable marriage thinking that is what God requires of us.
John just as long as you personally are happy, I suppose that is the only thing that will ever matter
Re:"I don't buy it, the deal where the lunk-headed guy just doesn't see it coming."
I guess that's what I'm selling, and you certainly have no obligation to purchase, but it's how it happened, regardless. Should I have seen it coming? No question. But I didn't...
And Rascal,
My only concern would be that hubby is fully aware of just how seriously you view the problems. But, obviously you'd know that better than I...
I probably got no bussiness saying anything here, but I did'nt want ya'll to think I was being unattentive. I once heard this said about marriage,,,,its not so much finding the right person as it is being the right person. Socks , I think described that appropo! Jar..thanks fer yer story,,a whole lot of heart there,,,made me think about somehting...back when I tried window cleaning,,,ya clean windows to see in and out! There's always someone else in the world besides yourself. And after two marriages I have come to realize not all good wives have good husbands! I still believe life is ten percent what you make it and ninety percent how you take it, so perhaps there's hope fer me. Thank you's fer sharing ya hearts on this thead.
You have to find new direction, new goals, new bliss. My wife has a paying job now, which we were able to avoid while the kids were home. We experiment more with different things to do. Cultural events, dining places, friends, decorating, antiquing.....the list is endless. But we will do it together, just as we have for 30 years. It is different now, but it is the same. You need to fall in love all over again, never kinda-sorta having fallen out of love. You invest in it, you nourish it, water it, spread some sunshine on it. It is good.... just like we have done for 31 years (counting the WOW year), the same, only different.
I am really, ~HAPe4me
HAPe4me
Reading your life blessed me so much, What a wonderful life, it mirrored my own marriage
in many ways, although its only 18 years for me. But when our last child went to school i started training
to be a nurse, like your wife i didnt need to work, and stayed home taking care of the family. But now
they are teenagers, i have a fullfilling job as a nurse, caring for people. Like you, me and my husband
have always done everything together. It was important to us both to be together, taking kids on
holidays abroad, running them to classes, (football, netball, swimming, boxing, ect. )
Now the time has come and soon the nest will be less full.... But we will still have each other, and
talk about all the things we will do.
We Love each others company, and while our mates would go out, we would stay in and play board
games LOL..... But out of all our friends we are the only ones still together,,, When told we needed to go
out by twi.. We would stay in. Always doing things as a family. Always there for the kids.
I want to believe that we have really given our children a foundation to build upon, set examples on
marriage, raising children, faithfullness, communication, and commitment, , It takes hard work and
When you live together there are no secrets, The kids see and hear everything.
Yes this is both our second marriages, and being we both had bad experiences it was so much easier
to make this one work, You tend not to make the same mistakes twice, (if the first time you put your
hand in boiling water it hurt,,,,,,, YOU wouldnt do it again). So there was great learning.
Yes like all things in life, if you have a passion for something you will invest in it, you nourish it, water it, spread some sunshine on it.
Then watch it grow and reap the REWARDS.
We never take each other for granted, Life is to short, here today gone tomorrow, no-one knows what the
future holds, but for me Love came when i wasn't looking for it.
My heart truly goes out to all those that have not found true happiness, and have bad experiences in
relationships, i know it hurts, but it does get better, like getting over twi, It gets better, When you
stay positive and move on, You learn not to make the same mistakes twice.
But imho, dont put up barriers, not all men/women are bad, some-one out there is just like you,
just wanting to be loved. With a genuine love..
Also God, is God, not a ministry, He is there for us all. Put him first and see things happen.
I have refrained from posting on this thread for a myriad of reasons, but my self-restraint has broken.
For anyone to comment on what went wrong with George's marriage, who knew what, who did what, is just the height of arrogancy. No one knows what went wrong and most likely it was many things.
Many of us share personal/intimate details from our lives here because we feel we are among friends. Unfortunately, at times that opens the door for comments we don't want to hear or that are just plain out of line.
George is mourning a tremendous loss and the last thing a grieving person needs to hear is that they are responsible for the loss (whether or not it may be true). Those kind of comments are better saved for after the mourning is over. For a time when someone is ready for an introspective look, and even then they should be held in check unless asked for. Most people who are grieving simply need an ear to listen and a shoulder to cry on.
((((George)))) I am terribly sorry for your loss and the pain you are suffering because of it.
As for the topic of the thread itself. NO ONE goes into a marriage hoping it will end in divorce. Anyone who has gone through a divorce understands that it is a death. A loss not only of love per se (which many not even be lost at all) but a loss of a friendship, dreams, hope, your present life as you know it, the future life you had planned. NO ONE should judge and accuse someone for a marriage that didn't work out, because they weren't there and they don't know what happened. Rather, we should comfort them for their loss as we would comfort one if a loved one died - because that is exactly what it feels like.
Having once been blind-sided by a divorce I should have seen coming and only able to speak concerning that and "that" woman, I am reminded of the words of wisdom my dear Mother spoke afterwards. " You didn't see it coming because she kept so many things hidden from you". I was then shocked even more to think even my own Mother knew about "her" boyfriends while I was so in the dark. The woman I "thought" I was married to was a fantasy while the woman I was married to was worthy of numerous descriptive words that would get this post edited by lurking moderators.
It was an extremely abusive relationship in the end, even then I cried out to work out this relationship. You see that its always the man's fault for the failure of the relationship. See had you paid more attention, see had you been more thoughtful, see had you stayed awake 25 hours a day to take care of the money and the bride. It always gets pointed to the man and we like fools swallow the whole bit, we buy into it that surely its because had we been better we would still be married.
So the failed relationship falls squarely on the man's shoulders while in reality it is the real lack of quality in the woman we married. But as in any abusive relationship it is always the victims fault. Like the battered women always feel its their fault he beat her, the man always is convinced by the woman its all his fault she left him.
Eventually the facade wears away and the X takes the rightful place they have earned, that distant person once married to that reaches out for donations from time to time. Then things like "her" leaving boyfriend that became husband number two to marry one of the many new boyfriends to make him husband number 3.
I have refrained from posting on this thread for a myriad of reasons, but my self-restraint has broken.
For anyone to comment on what went wrong with George's marriage, who knew what, who did what, is just the height of arrogancy. No one knows what went wrong and most likely it was many things.
It's obvious that there are communication gaps between men and women. That's nothing new. I think picking a mate who compliments your personality and vice versa allows for a successful relationship. I also think that knowing what makes that person feel loved continues the success.
My husband and I read a book called The Five Love Languages, and the ideas promoted in the book help us to remember what makes each other "feel the love". There are five basic things which can help a person to feel love:
1. Quality time
2. Words of Affirmation
3. Gifts
4. Acts of Service
5. Physical Touch
The book helps you to figure out what your own love language is. I can say this continues to help me and my husband to speak each other's love language. There are still times where life can get busy and one or the other can feel "jilted" in the love category. If I feel this way, I ask my husband "What's my love language?" Of course it takes two to keep it going, and it takes a sensitivity to understand why the other's love language is what it is.
It gives perfect examples of men who thought they were doing their duty by telling their wives they loved them each day. But the wife's love language was physical touch. Him touching her and all the good stuff that goes with it showed love to her. For another woman, it could be him taking out the trash every day without reminder. For others, it could be her telling him what a great job he does maintaining the cars. It could be her going golfing with him because he loves golf and loves to do it with the woman he loves.
I would have never believed there were love languages. After reading this book, it has helped my new marriage to be sweet and loving. After my first marriage, this has been a dream come true. It has been for my husband too.
What a sweet way of putting it, i wanted to quote you on all of it LOL
Quote: It gives perfect examples of men who thought they were doing their duty by telling their wives they loved them each day. But the wife's love language was physical touch. Him touching her and all the good stuff that goes with it showed love to her. For another woman, it could be him taking out the trash every day without reminder. For others, it could be her telling him what a great job he does maintaining the cars. It could be her going golfing with him because he loves golf and loves to do it with the woman he loves.
This is it in a nutshell, its all different for different people, that book sounds great, thanks for
letting us know about it..... even with 18 years of marriage, i am still prepared to change for the
better, i will look for that book, do you know the author?
The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate (Paperback)
by Gary Chapman
"At 30,000 feet, somewhere between Buffalo and Dallas, he put his magazine in his seat pocket, turned in my direction, and asked, "What kind of work do you do"?
OK i found it and i was able to read the first few pages, it looks great and only $6.95
That sounds like a great book, Wayfer Not. I'm going to get it. Thanks. :)
George, you're getting lots of free advice and discussion, others too. I mean that in a good way, this discussion is wonderful.
I do believe, as ya might say, in the "power of love", and that giving, acting towards another in their best interests, is a good way t live. No rocket science there, don't even need a bible to come up with that, although I think Jesus's teachings on love pushed the envelope a little, offering another level of consideration that's both exhilerating and confounding at the same time. Or silly and even stupid, depending on your viewpoint I guess.
Between two people there's a huge capacity to love, like in a marriage. When that goes south, it seems that love is lost, maybe forever. Or maybe it was never there to begin with.
Love as a way of life, an attitude, a precept, is strong. And there a person can always commit their heart to love, can always dedicate themselves to it, with the hope that it will flourish and grow and return in it's own way and time. Will it, for everyone? I think it can, so that's my "IMO". But I can't predict how or when, and I don't think anyone can.
Disappointment will make me not want to do that. when there's been a loss, a failure. It seems to make "love" useless, but everything isn't going to succeed the way we want it all the time, we make mistakes, other people do. In a perfect world, everything would be, well, perfect. But this world is not. Again, not Nobel Prize stuff.
I understand that certain things make some people "do" better than others. I don't have looks to offer, nothing dramatic going on there. (although if a guy looks in a mirror and thinks he's good looking, does that make him gay?....I'm side barrig that one, sorry).....I have whatever I have, and that's that. I certainly am somewhere south of the ideal companion, for a large percentage of the population, both male and female. I have no magic bullets to offer, but hope this contributes something to the mix.
Wafer not...I AGREE 100 percent....no 100, 000 percent....and I can say this havng never read the darned book.
How do I know? Well my spouse read this book in dec and promptly bought every copy he could find in multiple book stores...... to hand out for christmas gifts....lol
I have seen remarkable changes since he read it..... the kids are wondering what happened to their Dad....Me? I tend to be a little more cynical.....am waiting to see if he is able to address long term issues.
The biggest thing that I have noticed is he is hearing more of what I am saying instead of deciding ahead of time what I am meaning......thus the cautious optimism.
I am hoping that this is going to provide the missing ingedient....rather than merely another band aid slapped on top of a gaping wound.
Yes Gary Chapman is the author. It is not a long book, but it is packed with ideas and scenarios so you can see your own situations and know how to work them out.
If your husband has read the book and you see change, then I highly suggest that you read it too. When a man takes a step to read a book on marriage, that is a HUGE step. Men usually aren't in to reading books like that. They just want to do, but some don't realize WHAT they need to do.
I'm not saying men are clumbsy idiots. Some are just not wired to read people and emotions. It doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them clueless. However there are a lot of clueless women out there too. They don't ever do anything to let the man know what she needs, and then she lives ....ed off about it. I see my mom and dad live this way day by day. It's sad after 44 years together.
If the woman is a crock pot, she needs to figure out how to get microwave man to stew a little bit. Sometimes that means she would have to be more of the aggresor in the bedroom. Once he see what stewing gets him, he will learn to like "stew"....LOL! Don't we know good things are worth waiting for!
The advice (and the pity party) is wonderful, I guess.
Sorta like telling the rancher to be sure to keep the barn door closed after his cow has been smashed on the highway, though. I'm not sure how much all this good advice is going to do me. In six or seven years I'll be just fine and ready to try it all again, huh? Gosh, that IS encouraging.
But, on a more positive note, we'll all be dead before too much longer and it won't matter anyway.
By the way, this guy writes books about love languages for your kids too. People are individuals. If we venture out to find out who we are and help our kids figure out who they are, there would probably be a lot less emotional issues in life and a lot less mismatching in relationships. Knowing who we are builds confidence in ourselves. It gives us a clear path as to what kind of people compliment us. Relationships are a large part of life on earth. It does only good to figure out how to have good ones.
If we build confidence in ourselves first, then we can move on to a relationship and add happiness to it. We won't expect the relationship to be our happiness.
I waited for my ex husband for two years AFTER I divorced him. I left him; I divorced him; I had no intentions of ever going back to him. But after the anger left me, I reconsidered since we had history together and a love at one time. Had he straightened up and come back to show me he was, I would have gladly had open arms for him. I only hoped that he would find happiness for himself so that he could bring happiness to the relationship.
If it doesn't work, then you don't lose because you learn to find happiness in yourself and your own life. That's attractive to people. Don't close the doors to life. You've got a lot more to experience. True happiness is precious with or without a mate.
Agreed Wafer....a huge step....it was much easier though when I could write him off as a heartless, soul less sob
Now that I know he cares enough to try....it behooves me to dismantle all of the defenses I built to keep from being hurt or caring anymore.........it means that I have to let him back in.....sometimes it is easier to just stay mad ...lol
Oh well, like I said, at this point, I am cautiously optimistic.
I highly recomend the book.... it seems to be helping in many areas outside of marriage as well.
I understand. It's hard to accept that someone could change when you've spent a lot of years with them as they were. Maybe he had a wake-up call.
I really hope this will work out for you guys. The idea of spending your life with someone who you like and love is a huge comfort, especially after your kids grow up and move on.
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johniam
quote: John, you are not propounding a biblical or christian way that a marriage should be.
Yeah, well it sounds to me like mine's happier than yours.
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satori001
Priceless.
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johniam
quote:My wife's vows never included the words "I will give him sex", did yours?
As a matter of fact, yes. The minister said, "Will you f*** his eyes out NIGHTLY? Answer 'I will'. She said yes.
quote: .....rhythm. HAH!
Hey, did you hear the one about the couple who exclusively used the rhythm method? It WORKED! All 12 of their kids were musicians.
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dmiller
Well, I'll tell ya.
I reached 8,000 posts here, and swore to myself that I would do *other things*
(like re-discover fiddle) for a month or so,
but this thread absolutely begged for a response on my part.
Geo -- you know Mary, and you know me. She and I were splitting up about the time you met Suz. Like I've said before -- I was jealous of you for finding love, when mine was being dashed like so many waves of Lake Superior on the rocks that line the shoreline up here.
She and I ended up divorced, but the difference between you and I is that I saw it coming, from a mile away. We were together for 10 years -- turbulent at times, but good ones none-the-less. She *dropped* all the hints that women do, and when I (in my ignorance) didn't pick up on them, she bluntly said "we need to go to a counsellor".
So -- I agreed, but guess what? The ONE night *available* to her for counseling was Wednesday nights.
Remember Sir Ben's?? And the bluegrass jams held there every Wednesday night? That was the ONE night of the week that I was *busy*, yet that was the ONE night that she had free from her weaving, spinning, yada, yada groups that she was involved with.
Somehow I got castigated as the bad guy for not wanting to go on my night out, while she felt perfectly comfortable hanging on to her *commitments*, and expecting me to dump mine.
Short of the long of it is -- I gave up my Wednesday night jam sessions to go to those sessions, and they produced no fruit. Matter of fact --- the bozo running the session suggested a *trial separation* so we could each live apart from each other, and contemplate.
Well -- when I heard that, and her acceptance of it, I knew it was the *kiss of death*.
I think you know the rest.... I ended up in that way home with Chr*s Granl*ch, and he made no bones about tellng me how fugged up I was, for not taking control
Fast forward 21 years ---- She and I still speak to each other. She is re-married, and I am not. We still update each other on our respective families, because we each know the other is truely interested.
Like someone else here said -- it does get better. It hurts at first, and it is the first few months/years that are the worst. Some find others in the mix, and some do not.
Life goes on.
David
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satori001
I don't buy it, the deal where the lunk-headed guy just doesn't see it coming.
I've been that guy (I know girls, hard to believe), the one that said, "But, but, I thought I had a few more straws left to go." I thought I could always make it up to her, maybe with flowers, or discount jewelry (guaranteed to appraise for more than the selling price!).
That was a long time ago. But it hasn't taken me all this time to figure out what happened. All I really had to do was get past wanting to kill the b#tch (or myself) and then I could think clearly again. That took a month or two. Or three.
What sucks about understanding, and the reason we don't put that much effort into it, is that you don't feel any better once you do. You may even feel worse.
And it's not because you see how grotesquely unequal to life a spiteful (though non-existent) God has made you, that you feel worse. If only it were. There's nothing like a powerful dose of self-loathing to make us feel better about our real selves! "I wish I were the man I know to be!" - Adolf H. Wierwille
The really sucky thing is when we understand just how equal we were to winning, continually winning, her love. We realize it didn't have to happen, but now it's too late. "Something inside has died, and I can't hide, and I just can't fake it." - Carole King
A lot of guys treat women like a juke box. When the music stops, we stick in another coin, which is to say, whatever we can get away with - whatever it takes to get the music to play again.
We delude ourselves into thinking that pleasing her from time to time is what keeps her happy, and that makes her want to keep us happy, which is all we really care about, George. But she wants to be happy too. And she's not a jukebox. She could make the music play long after we've run out of coins, if she's happy. We delude ourselves, but we know better. It's often called "denial." We do know better.
It's not what we do, which might momentarily please her, but who we are that makes her happy. Or not so happy. She once loved a guy who was just so. What was that? Funny, confident, tender, "cute," strong, reliable, fun, intimate, and a hundred other things that made us special to them.
Yes George, we're flawed. (I'm sure his wife can find a few holes in "socks," too, but that's what yarn is for, darn it, and he's got plenty, ain't he?)
Uh, where was I? We're flawed. Always were, always will be. But it's not the flaws that make her unhappy. It's a shift in the balance of our qualities and flaws, perfections and imperfections... toward the flaws, the imperfections. Maybe it's one BIG one, or maybe it's all of them, but the imperfections take over.
If we coudn't help it, she'd forgive us. We know how maternal they are sometimes. But we CAN help it, and we don't, and that says "I DON'T LOVE YOU," loud and clear. Whether or not it's true, by the way. Often it's not true, or we don't think so. Sometimes, it is true, and we just haven't figured it out yet.
Okay, we're tired. It isn't easy being at our best. We have big shoes to fill. (Ours.)
So we gradually loosen the belt, and the priorities, and we forget that she's tired too, and rather than helping her, we're asking her to carry more and more of the relationship while giving her less and less of a reason to do it.
I've tried to take this lesson to heart. It cost plenty to learn. No lie. The lesson is still fresh, more than twenty years later. And yet I constantly remind myself.
Then again, maybe she's the problem.
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rascal
Thanks George, you do help, I would gladly take your suggestion, however spouse will not consider it.....
It isn`t that I haven`t tried repeatedly........ He has been reading some interesting books on marriage and communication lately... and though there are a whole host of underlying problems that need to be addressed....the books seem to be helping him....it helps to know that at least he is beginning to try....
Sometimes it is too little too late. I certainly would not divorce him to try again with someone else....that would be silly.
I personally do not understand marrying someone that you are not willing to love..... not only do you deny that person the love that is so necessary ...but in marrying them, you effectively cut your mate off from ever recieving it any where else.
It seems very sad to be condemned to live a lifetime with no love simply because you made a commitment and a vow....and are afraid that God will be mad if you break it.
Like I said, I admire the people who recognise a bad fit early enough to correct it. I know a lot of people who are blissfully happy in their second marriage...... How sd to stay in a miserable marriage thinking that is what God requires of us.
John just as long as you personally are happy, I suppose that is the only thing that will ever matter
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George Aar
Satori,
Re:"I don't buy it, the deal where the lunk-headed guy just doesn't see it coming."
I guess that's what I'm selling, and you certainly have no obligation to purchase, but it's how it happened, regardless. Should I have seen it coming? No question. But I didn't...
And Rascal,
My only concern would be that hubby is fully aware of just how seriously you view the problems. But, obviously you'd know that better than I...
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Littlehawk
I probably got no bussiness saying anything here, but I did'nt want ya'll to think I was being unattentive. I once heard this said about marriage,,,,its not so much finding the right person as it is being the right person. Socks , I think described that appropo! Jar..thanks fer yer story,,a whole lot of heart there,,,made me think about somehting...back when I tried window cleaning,,,ya clean windows to see in and out! There's always someone else in the world besides yourself. And after two marriages I have come to realize not all good wives have good husbands! I still believe life is ten percent what you make it and ninety percent how you take it, so perhaps there's hope fer me. Thank you's fer sharing ya hearts on this thead.
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marypoppins
HAPe4me
Reading your life blessed me so much, What a wonderful life, it mirrored my own marriage
in many ways, although its only 18 years for me. But when our last child went to school i started training
to be a nurse, like your wife i didnt need to work, and stayed home taking care of the family. But now
they are teenagers, i have a fullfilling job as a nurse, caring for people. Like you, me and my husband
have always done everything together. It was important to us both to be together, taking kids on
holidays abroad, running them to classes, (football, netball, swimming, boxing, ect. )
Now the time has come and soon the nest will be less full.... But we will still have each other, and
talk about all the things we will do.
We Love each others company, and while our mates would go out, we would stay in and play board
games LOL..... But out of all our friends we are the only ones still together,,, When told we needed to go
out by twi.. We would stay in. Always doing things as a family. Always there for the kids.
I want to believe that we have really given our children a foundation to build upon, set examples on
marriage, raising children, faithfullness, communication, and commitment, , It takes hard work and
When you live together there are no secrets, The kids see and hear everything.
Yes this is both our second marriages, and being we both had bad experiences it was so much easier
to make this one work, You tend not to make the same mistakes twice, (if the first time you put your
hand in boiling water it hurt,,,,,,, YOU wouldnt do it again). So there was great learning.
Yes like all things in life, if you have a passion for something you will invest in it, you nourish it, water it, spread some sunshine on it.
Then watch it grow and reap the REWARDS.
We never take each other for granted, Life is to short, here today gone tomorrow, no-one knows what the
future holds, but for me Love came when i wasn't looking for it.
My heart truly goes out to all those that have not found true happiness, and have bad experiences in
relationships, i know it hurts, but it does get better, like getting over twi, It gets better, When you
stay positive and move on, You learn not to make the same mistakes twice.
But imho, dont put up barriers, not all men/women are bad, some-one out there is just like you,
just wanting to be loved. With a genuine love..
Also God, is God, not a ministry, He is there for us all. Put him first and see things happen.
Ask and you shall recieve.
marypoppins
I
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Abigail
I have refrained from posting on this thread for a myriad of reasons, but my self-restraint has broken.
For anyone to comment on what went wrong with George's marriage, who knew what, who did what, is just the height of arrogancy. No one knows what went wrong and most likely it was many things.
Many of us share personal/intimate details from our lives here because we feel we are among friends. Unfortunately, at times that opens the door for comments we don't want to hear or that are just plain out of line.
George is mourning a tremendous loss and the last thing a grieving person needs to hear is that they are responsible for the loss (whether or not it may be true). Those kind of comments are better saved for after the mourning is over. For a time when someone is ready for an introspective look, and even then they should be held in check unless asked for. Most people who are grieving simply need an ear to listen and a shoulder to cry on.
((((George)))) I am terribly sorry for your loss and the pain you are suffering because of it.
As for the topic of the thread itself. NO ONE goes into a marriage hoping it will end in divorce. Anyone who has gone through a divorce understands that it is a death. A loss not only of love per se (which many not even be lost at all) but a loss of a friendship, dreams, hope, your present life as you know it, the future life you had planned. NO ONE should judge and accuse someone for a marriage that didn't work out, because they weren't there and they don't know what happened. Rather, we should comfort them for their loss as we would comfort one if a loved one died - because that is exactly what it feels like.
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wingnut
Having once been blind-sided by a divorce I should have seen coming and only able to speak concerning that and "that" woman, I am reminded of the words of wisdom my dear Mother spoke afterwards. " You didn't see it coming because she kept so many things hidden from you". I was then shocked even more to think even my own Mother knew about "her" boyfriends while I was so in the dark. The woman I "thought" I was married to was a fantasy while the woman I was married to was worthy of numerous descriptive words that would get this post edited by lurking moderators.
It was an extremely abusive relationship in the end, even then I cried out to work out this relationship. You see that its always the man's fault for the failure of the relationship. See had you paid more attention, see had you been more thoughtful, see had you stayed awake 25 hours a day to take care of the money and the bride. It always gets pointed to the man and we like fools swallow the whole bit, we buy into it that surely its because had we been better we would still be married.
So the failed relationship falls squarely on the man's shoulders while in reality it is the real lack of quality in the woman we married. But as in any abusive relationship it is always the victims fault. Like the battered women always feel its their fault he beat her, the man always is convinced by the woman its all his fault she left him.
Eventually the facade wears away and the X takes the rightful place they have earned, that distant person once married to that reaches out for donations from time to time. Then things like "her" leaving boyfriend that became husband number two to marry one of the many new boyfriends to make him husband number 3.
Yes it was all my fault!
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satori001
Hey Abigail, shut up and get back in the kitchen.
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shazdancer
Aw, satori, cut it out. Abigail is not in the kitchen -- she and Sushi are on their honeymoon, they call for take-out!
:D
Shaz
...and I second Abi's motion, but I'm up for talking if you ever feel like it, Geo.
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marypoppins
I Third abi's motion to, What a heart,
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Nottawayfer
It's obvious that there are communication gaps between men and women. That's nothing new. I think picking a mate who compliments your personality and vice versa allows for a successful relationship. I also think that knowing what makes that person feel loved continues the success.
My husband and I read a book called The Five Love Languages, and the ideas promoted in the book help us to remember what makes each other "feel the love". There are five basic things which can help a person to feel love:
1. Quality time
2. Words of Affirmation
3. Gifts
4. Acts of Service
5. Physical Touch
The book helps you to figure out what your own love language is. I can say this continues to help me and my husband to speak each other's love language. There are still times where life can get busy and one or the other can feel "jilted" in the love category. If I feel this way, I ask my husband "What's my love language?" Of course it takes two to keep it going, and it takes a sensitivity to understand why the other's love language is what it is.
It gives perfect examples of men who thought they were doing their duty by telling their wives they loved them each day. But the wife's love language was physical touch. Him touching her and all the good stuff that goes with it
showed love to her. For another woman, it could be him taking out the trash every day without reminder. For others, it could be her telling him what a great job he does maintaining the cars. It could be her going golfing with him because he loves golf and loves to do it with the woman he loves.
I would have never believed there were love languages. After reading this book, it has helped my new marriage to be sweet and loving. After my first marriage, this has been a dream come true. It has been for my husband too.
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marypoppins
OHHH BOY................Wayfer Not
What a sweet way of putting it, i wanted to quote you on all of it LOL
Quote: It gives perfect examples of men who thought they were doing their duty by telling their wives they loved them each day. But the wife's love language was physical touch. Him touching her and all the good stuff that goes with it showed love to her. For another woman, it could be him taking out the trash every day without reminder. For others, it could be her telling him what a great job he does maintaining the cars. It could be her going golfing with him because he loves golf and loves to do it with the woman he loves.
This is it in a nutshell, its all different for different people, that book sounds great, thanks for
letting us know about it..... even with 18 years of marriage, i am still prepared to change for the
better, i will look for that book, do you know the author?
The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate (Paperback)
by Gary Chapman
"At 30,000 feet, somewhere between Buffalo and Dallas, he put his magazine in his seat pocket, turned in my direction, and asked, "What kind of work do you do"?
OK i found it and i was able to read the first few pages, it looks great and only $6.95
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1881273156...441#reader-page
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socks
That sounds like a great book, Wayfer Not. I'm going to get it. Thanks. :)
George, you're getting lots of free advice and discussion, others too. I mean that in a good way, this discussion is wonderful.
I do believe, as ya might say, in the "power of love", and that giving, acting towards another in their best interests, is a good way t live. No rocket science there, don't even need a bible to come up with that, although I think Jesus's teachings on love pushed the envelope a little, offering another level of consideration that's both exhilerating and confounding at the same time. Or silly and even stupid, depending on your viewpoint I guess.
Between two people there's a huge capacity to love, like in a marriage. When that goes south, it seems that love is lost, maybe forever. Or maybe it was never there to begin with.
Love as a way of life, an attitude, a precept, is strong. And there a person can always commit their heart to love, can always dedicate themselves to it, with the hope that it will flourish and grow and return in it's own way and time. Will it, for everyone? I think it can, so that's my "IMO". But I can't predict how or when, and I don't think anyone can.
Disappointment will make me not want to do that. when there's been a loss, a failure. It seems to make "love" useless, but everything isn't going to succeed the way we want it all the time, we make mistakes, other people do. In a perfect world, everything would be, well, perfect. But this world is not. Again, not Nobel Prize stuff.
I understand that certain things make some people "do" better than others. I don't have looks to offer, nothing dramatic going on there. (although if a guy looks in a mirror and thinks he's good looking, does that make him gay?....I'm side barrig that one, sorry).....I have whatever I have, and that's that. I certainly am somewhere south of the ideal companion, for a large percentage of the population, both male and female. I have no magic bullets to offer, but hope this contributes something to the mix.
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rascal
Wafer not...I AGREE 100 percent....no 100, 000 percent....and I can say this havng never read the darned book.
How do I know? Well my spouse read this book in dec and promptly bought every copy he could find in multiple book stores...... to hand out for christmas gifts....lol
I have seen remarkable changes since he read it..... the kids are wondering what happened to their Dad....Me? I tend to be a little more cynical.....am waiting to see if he is able to address long term issues.
The biggest thing that I have noticed is he is hearing more of what I am saying instead of deciding ahead of time what I am meaning......thus the cautious optimism.
I am hoping that this is going to provide the missing ingedient....rather than merely another band aid slapped on top of a gaping wound.
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Nottawayfer
May Poppins,
Yes Gary Chapman is the author. It is not a long book, but it is packed with ideas and scenarios so you can see your own situations and know how to work them out.
*****************************************************
Rascal,
If your husband has read the book and you see change, then I highly suggest that you read it too. When a man takes a step to read a book on marriage, that is a HUGE step. Men usually aren't in to reading books like that. They just want to do, but some don't realize WHAT they need to do.
*******************************************************
I'm not saying men are clumbsy idiots. Some are just not wired to read people and emotions. It doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them clueless. However there are a lot of clueless women out there too. They don't ever do anything to let the man know what she needs, and then she lives ....ed off about it. I see my mom and dad live this way day by day. It's sad after 44 years together.
If the woman is a crock pot, she needs to figure out how to get microwave man to stew a little bit. Sometimes that means she would have to be more of the aggresor in the bedroom. Once he see what stewing gets him, he will learn to like "stew"....LOL! Don't we know good things are worth waiting for!
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George Aar
Socks,
yeah,
The advice (and the pity party) is wonderful, I guess.
Sorta like telling the rancher to be sure to keep the barn door closed after his cow has been smashed on the highway, though. I'm not sure how much all this good advice is going to do me. In six or seven years I'll be just fine and ready to try it all again, huh? Gosh, that IS encouraging.
But, on a more positive note, we'll all be dead before too much longer and it won't matter anyway.
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Nottawayfer
By the way, this guy writes books about love languages for your kids too. People are individuals. If we venture out to find out who we are and help our kids figure out who they are, there would probably be a lot less emotional issues in life and a lot less mismatching in relationships. Knowing who we are builds confidence in ourselves. It gives us a clear path as to what kind of people compliment us. Relationships are a large part of life on earth. It does only good to figure out how to have good ones.
If we build confidence in ourselves first, then we can move on to a relationship and add happiness to it. We won't expect the relationship to be our happiness.
***************************************************************
George,
I waited for my ex husband for two years AFTER I divorced him. I left him; I divorced him; I had no intentions of ever going back to him. But after the anger left me, I reconsidered since we had history together and a love at one time. Had he straightened up and come back to show me he was, I would have gladly had open arms for him. I only hoped that he would find happiness for himself so that he could bring happiness to the relationship.
If it doesn't work, then you don't lose because you learn to find happiness in yourself and your own life. That's attractive to people. Don't close the doors to life. You've got a lot more to experience. True happiness is precious with or without a mate.
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socks
Well George. It's 2006 and the year ain't over yet.
Customer: Hey, waiter, what's this maggot doing in my breakfast cereall??? :blink:
Waiter: Sorry bout that, I'll remove him. They complained about the soup being too hot. <_<
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rascal
Agreed Wafer....a huge step....it was much easier though when I could write him off as a heartless, soul less sob
Now that I know he cares enough to try....it behooves me to dismantle all of the defenses I built to keep from being hurt or caring anymore.........it means that I have to let him back in.....sometimes it is easier to just stay mad ...lol
Oh well, like I said, at this point, I am cautiously optimistic.
I highly recomend the book.... it seems to be helping in many areas outside of marriage as well.
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Nottawayfer
Rascal,
I understand. It's hard to accept that someone could change when you've spent a lot of years with them as they were. Maybe he had a wake-up call.
I really hope this will work out for you guys. The idea of spending your life with someone who you like and love is a huge comfort, especially after your kids grow up and move on.
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