This applies to the other thread, too. IF God really does join the 2 together, then that would be preferred above shacking up, if the couple is really serious about the relationship. Otherwise, it's just another form of gambling.
IMHO in short................Bull Shirt!!!! This country and it's laws screwed all that up.
Well, all I can say is that we are *committed* .....so what? BFD..... doesn`t necessarily make it a happy thing.
But hey.... We are doing our duty....We are honoring our commitment ....We are completely disgusted with one another much of the time...irritated beyond measure by one another..... but that doesn`t REALLY matter because by golly we have kept our vows <_<
God no doubt is ecstatic with our level of commitment in the face of our obvious misery <_< ...bet he even has special little jewels for the crowns of boys and girls who have been so good <_<
All of the prayer and all of the placating ...all of the catering you can bring to bear will not change someone against their will. Sometimes it is just a bad fit and I think that it would be much better to recognise this and change things as early as possible (before children) ...rather than spending a life time honoring a promise made, but miserable.
George - I promise you it's not a game. This is actually the way women think.
I do think that it often is a game for ladies.
... We can say things like "I'm hungry" and "I'm tired" but we prefer not using the "horny" term because we think of it as making love and horny doesn't convey that part of it.
Do they don't say: "Horny" because they simply don't feel 'that' way.
And would rather say: "Oh gawd no! Not that again. Didn't we just do that last year?"
... It's really true that men and woman think differently, it's not a myth ... It's not something women will say to get out of a conversation or to confuse you guys. There are real structural differences between male and female brains and these differences occur in structures which communicate between the left (analytical) and right (creative) halves of the brains. And, of course, we woman are sometimes held captive by hormones which we cannot control. You may have heard this before and thought they were excuses. They're not excuses, they are reasons - - and there's a world of difference between the two.
I agree that men are from one place and women are from an entirely different place.
I am not nearly so jaded as my prior post would indicate....(wish I could edit it to tone it down a bit lol) I do believe in staying married.....I just think that it would be better if folks stayed together because they wanted to be together rather than forced because of having made a commitment....lol...
When posting I was actually thinking more about a Christian neighbor I had a neighbor who was married to a jerk.... absolutely miserable believing that God required her to stay with some one who was unbelievably irritating.....she had been married over 20 years.......maybe this is all reminding me of being perpetually trapped in a bad wow year.....stuck with a family member who`s presence is like fingernails on a chalk board...lol ....you know you remember....toughin it out till aug because you made a committment to God......only THIS time august isn`t ever coming?
It is pretty funny actually, I spoke to spouse tonight about what I had written....(his comments reminded me a little of you George) and he feels entirely different than I do ...(big suprise lol) firmly believing in staying together for the commitments sake...divorce not being an option in his mind.....thinks that things are just fine.....etc
Seeing things from your pov George, I realised that I don`t want my spouse suprised and angry when the last child is grown ...and that I might want out... up untill now, he thought I had been kidding about the countdown.....I see now that I am going to make a genuine effort to be absolutely chrystal clear.....though in my mind I thought I HAD been all of this time....Thankyou George.
I suppose when you are stuck with one another....divorce not being an option....you work harder at it.....you make an effort to change the things that drive one another the nuttiest.
All I know is that somehow nearly 20 years have slipped by while we have tried to get it all figured out
Maybe we are just a little slow or something ya think?.... I certainly don`t dismiss the possibility that we might eventually figure it all out.
I like sock`s annalogy best of all about the velcro.... I like Shellon`s observation about being a crock pot as well ...lol
Seeing things from your pov George, I realised that I don`t want my spouse suprised and angry when the last child is grown ...and that I might want out... Thankyou George.
I suppose when you are stuck with one another....divorce not being an option....you work harder at it.....you make an effort to change the things that drive one another the nuttiest.
I got married at 20 i loved him very much, we had a son. God was not in the picture in our marriage.
My son is 6 weeks old and hubby was not getting enough sleep, so i went to stay at my parents for a
few nights, Saturday morning came and i took myself and son back to the marital home, when i walked
in the bedroom he was in Bed with my best friend. Well thats a whole nother story...
But 16 months later i met powerfilled, he loved GOD with all his heart, i thought he was a crack pot.
I believed there was a GOD but didnt think i needed him in my life, We would talk for hours, share secrets
it was a friendship that was building, He had also caught his wife cheating, we use to talk about how
hurt we were. Not realising that this was becoming more than a friendship.
I Tried so hard to not get attached, No-way was i going through all that hurt again. But i was falling in
LOVE, he was different, Caring, Understanding, Positive, Funny, He loved God, Loved everyone,
never looked on the bad in people, had a Great sense of humour. Made me laugh, 18 Months later
we were married. We both were totally committed to what our vows meant divorce was not a option
for either of us. Commitment and communication was most important to me. I wanted to know how he was feeling, or if i did things that upset him, or visa versa, i didnt want us to take each other for granted,
and he always told me that nothing was impossible for GOD, that any situation could be sorted,
So here we are 18 years later with 3 wonderful Kids (teenagers) and he is still the same person
i befriended 18 years ago, I love him unconditionally, hes my lover, my best friend, my soul mate,
my protector, Familys provider, and a really special MAN.....
Life has far been from easy, what with twi, me having cancer, spinal surgery, house caught fire (due to faulty boiler) and much more that i dont want to bore anyone with,
but never has a day gone by that we dont tell each other how much we love each other.
We have our arguments like all couples, but when you LOVE someone its worth communicating,
and never let the sun go down upon your wrath. The quicker you sort it out the better,
Yes i know it has to be a two way flow, but everyone deserves a taste of happiness, except some dont
realise that they had happiness and let it go. They dont realise how much they took advantage until that person is gone. They say u never realise what you had until its gone.
HOW VERY TRUE....... I thought that no-one would want me at twenty with a 16 month old son, but someone
did, and now i am Thankful to God, for giving me a MAN that i can love and cherish for all the days of my
life. Through the good times and the bad, in sickness and in health.
Selfishness does not live in a marriage. My first marriage proved that.
That was absolutely beautiful. When I read your life with your marriage it reminded me of my own. So many similarities.
Marriage can be beautiful ...... I thank God daily that I am blessed with a tremendously wonderful caring husband who has as well stuck by my side through sickness and in health. Slept in a recliner chair, in a hospital for a month next to my bed without complaint and took care of me when we got home.
Love is out there and marriage can be fantastic. I as well had one bad marriage but I was not willing to throw all of Gods beautiful men away because of one bad apple. I thank God for the beautiful man he sent me way.
God has less power than this country and its laws? Hmm.
Never said that. What I am saying is many people stay together because of what a pain in the butt it is to be divorsed in this country.
As I have read in the two posts above MaryPoppins and Digitalis'. Yes I see it as a commitment before God. I believe in the vows. As you can read in the two posts, there were spouses that did not take their vows serious. If that happens and you stay with the person that does not take vows serious. I see a set up for misery and possible abuse. Does God want that? Eff no He does not. God would want you out of that situation ASAP. Commitment takes two people in a relationship. IMHO two people can be just as commited towards each other never being married. I don't think God minds that one bit.
Bottom line to get a divorse takes some nads because of all the hoops you have to go through to get out of a bad situation.
Ie. I had a couple that lived above me when I was 19. He beat the effn crap out of her time and time again. You would here her say "NO CARL" then a huge thud. The thud was her hitting the ground. A couple of years later I saw her around town. I had moved. She had a bandage covering half of her face. I asked her if Carl had done that. She said yes but he did not mean to hurt her. I know why she was still with him deserves another thread but my point. Did God want that for her? How far should people take a commitment johniam? There are times when it is over and nothing should stop it.
quote: Do they don't say: "Horny" because they simply don't feel 'that' way.
And would rather say: "Oh gawd no! Not that again. Didn't we just do that last year?"
That's funny. Yeah. Any woman who chronically refuses to have sex with her husband has already broken the marriage vow herself; why be shocked if the man responds in kind by looking elsewhere.
quote: Do they don't say: "Horny" because they simply don't feel 'that' way.
And would rather say: "Oh gawd no! Not that again. Didn't we just do that last year?"
That's funny. Yeah. Any woman who chronically refuses to have sex with her husband has already broken the marriage vow herself; why be shocked if the man responds in kind by looking elsewhere.
So that means the man should break his commitment? So two wrongs do make a right? Wow that is commitment. :blink:
No, 2 wrongs don't make a right; they make a human, just like 1 wrong. Same old same old double standard. Women can blame everything on their hormones and not take responsibility, but men are all GUILTY!!!!!
No, 2 wrongs don't make a right; they make a human, just like 1 wrong. Same old same old double standard. Women can blame everything on their hormones and not take responsibility, but men are all GUILTY!!!!!
Yeah that was the same way wierwille justified adultery. The woman DARNED well better keep herself alluring and cater to the hubby`s every apetite and be an angel but a devil in the bedroom....blah de blah...all about pleasing the guy....blah de blah.....
The poor guys just cannot help themselves......they are horney...... the poor guys cannot help being angry enough to clock the annoying women.....
According to Johns/wierwilles pov..It sounds to me like the poor guys are just plain WEAK and looking for a scape goat <_<
Consider the source of where you come by these ideas ......
There guys bear no responsibility ......
I knew darned well in twi as a corpes wife I`d darned well BETTER not get fat..... and I`d darned well BETTER not make my spouse mad enough to hit me....if I did it would have been MY fault for being so abysmally foolish to irritate him to that point.........and I darned well BETTER be ready day or night when and where whether I wanted to not to engage in sex.....
This wasn`t even what my spouse demanded....just what we had both been taught was my responsibility as a virtuous woman.
It was a mighty sick system........one that didn`t equip us as a couple and has taken many years to sort through and undue the damage inflicted.
The funny part is ...though it seemed grossly unfair at the time.... it never occured to me to call any of this into question......I accepted this as the *Godly* way to do things.
John, you are not propounding a biblical or christian way that a marriage should be.
That's funny. Yeah. Any woman who chronically refuses to have sex with her husband has already broken the marriage vow herself; why be shocked if the man responds in kind by looking elsewhere.
My wife's vows never included the words "I will give him sex", did yours? If a wife chronically refuses sex, there might be a failure by the man to do anything which might inspire her to consider it something meaningful. It might also mean she has a physical reason, or quite often, a concern about an unwanted pregnancy and her husband refuses to take reasonable precautions against it, or to discuss some alternatives, such as vasectomy. Why is it that in our culture so often responsibility for such things is shoved onto the wife to take drugs for thirty years to prevent pregnancy? you will probably now say something about rhythm. HAH!
Some men (and women too) also often do not realize that some women are not as regular as clockword in theri ovulation. This is especially true as we advance in years. This can cause deep concerns about unwanted prenancies, which then cause deep concerns as to what to do about them afterward. In short, things are not as simple as bible thumping tyrants might make them sound.
Johniam, you seem to think that having sex is an obligation to be provided on demand by the wife. I think it should be more a reaction by both husband and wife to romance, communication, love, friendship, attachment, comfort and joy, all wrapped up in an emotional package. It is revolting, IMHO, to think of sex as nothing more than jacking off in a woman's body. What a bore that would be.
Maybe so for Jane Q. Public, but not any godly woman I know...unless it is obvious flirtation.
Do they don't say: "Horny" because they simply don't feel 'that' way.
And would rather say: "Oh gawd no! Not that again. Didn't we just do that last year?"
No we get the same feelings, I assure you although I can't say if they are identical. We feel horny...we just express it in other ways...this is one of the few times, we're not so verbal!
I can only speak for myself on your other comment, but my husband would never initiate anything if he knew I was sick. We'd spoon sometimes if I was sick, or he was, but there were occasions where I asked for a rain check...sometimes he'd press a little and I changed my mind...sometimes I wouldn't. We honored each other that way...but again, I can't speak for Jane Q.
I agree that men are from one place and women are from an entirely different place.
Yes we are, but it's not just mentally so - - there are real differences that are built in.
As for hormones: I did have month to month aggravations, but I was never pregnant as we adopted our children. I can speak about menopause and that was (for me) a nightmare and a half. By the time I got to that stage in my life I had learned to control my outward self enough but that made it even worse. Daytimes were sometimes tough, but night sweats were so bad that when they woke me up I felt scuzzy enough to need a shower at 3 am. When I was done, often I'd try to go back to bed, but the sheets were still damp so I'd lay on the sofa in my robe. Lack of sleep together with hormonal surges during the day make for one cranky lady. Trust me.
This feels like it will be a long post, but I hope it helps someone to face today and tomorrow.
I have been married for 30 years to my wife. We met as WOW's 31 years ago, which seems like eons. We have been through a cult, business failures, business successes, changing goals, raising children, EMPTY NESTERS, menopause, deaths of loved ones, car wrecks, car purchases, houses, investments, schools, pets.... all those things that create places where some people jump ship. We still love each other, care for each other, dream together, plan together, sleep together.........all those things which we saw ahead for us together on our wedding day. We have hope.....(I like using that word in other than a Return of Christ meaning). It is good.
Some might say I/we are the lucky ones. To some degree that may be true, but far and away, I see it more as one of our more profitable investments of time, money, energy and emotions. I truly feel for those of you who have not found the sort of happiness and comfort level my wife and I have shared for all these years. I cannot imagine what hurt I would have if things were different for me than they are in my marriage. I wish I had answers for those of you who have not had a reality that is so well. About all I can say is I hope you keep a glimmer of hope. It could still be there for you.
I want to give mention more to the issue of empty nesters. So much of our first 27 years was invested in raising children together. There were schools, PTA, kid sports, vacations to show the kids something outside of Colorado......It seems that doing things with/for the kids occupied most of our waking hours. It was good.
I supposed that facing being empty nesters might be the biggest obstacle to our future life together. While we had kids, some leadership told us "you need to make time for yourselves"- we ignored them. "Date nights" were popular for married couples when we were in TWI- we never did them. We CHOSE always to go to dinner with the boys, we CHOSE always to stay at home with them. We CHOSE always to take them to movies or to sport events. We CHOSE always to vacation with them. Our children were the focus of everything that was our lives, but we CHOSE IT TOGETHER, and it was good.
Off to college the boys went. For a fleeting moment we wondered what was ahead for us in a life that heretofore had been so prevailed upon by raising kids. We needn't have worried. We had chosen that life together, and we would face the future the same way... together. My mother told us that now we would need to "kinda-sorta fall in love again" (those were her exact words.)
You have to find new direction, new goals, new bliss. My wife has a paying job now, which we were able to avoid while the kids were home. We experiment more with different things to do. Cultural events, dining places, friends, decorating, antiquing.....the list is endless. But we will do it together, just as we have for 30 years. It is different now, but it is the same. You need to fall in love all over again, never kinda-sorta having fallen out of love. You invest in it, you nourish it, water it, spread some sunshine on it. It is good.... just like we have done for 31 years (counting the WOW year), the same, only different.
It is pretty funny actually, I spoke to spouse tonight about what I had written....(his comments reminded me a little of you George) and he feels entirely different than I do ...(big suprise lol) firmly believing in staying together for the commitments sake...divorce not being an option in his mind.....thinks that things are just fine.....etc
Seeing things from your pov George, I realised that I don`t want my spouse suprised and angry when the last child is grown ...and that I might want out... up untill now, he thought I had been kidding about the countdown.....I see now that I am going to make a genuine effort to be absolutely chrystal clear.....though in my mind I thought I HAD been all of this time....Thankyou George.
Rascal,
Geeze, I'm glad I was able to give a little insight. I really am. Nice to know that all the heartache and introspection of the last 6 or 8 months wasn't entirely in vain.
Could I suggest maybe finding a GOOD counselor for a bit? I really have no experience with them (well, the marital kind, anyway), but, if what I'm experiencing is the norm, you don't wanna try the alternative. It's just too goddam hard. It really is. The regret, the hopelessness, the guilt, the tainted memories of your whole life, the things that you used to love to remember now only make you cry. The overall dispair. There's just nothing good about it. Not a goddam thing.
Far better, I would think, would be working out what makes you unhappy in your current relationship. Unless you decide to live alone, you'll just end up with another boneheaded, jerkoff man again anyway. Wouldn't be easier to work with the one you've got already?
When I met with my lawyer (an old friend I've gone to school with since the third grade), he told me "Sorry to say it George, but you fit the profile". That is, divorces tend to happen the most at two times during the marriage. Once at about 7 years (the infamous "7-year-itch") - where it's usually the husband leaving the wife for a girl with a tighter butt and perkier breasts. And then again at around 20 years, where it's usually the wife leaving the husband because she's disappointed with where her life went and blames it all (rightly or wrongly) on her choice of husbands.
Maybe knowing the natural tendancies towards divorce can help us aleviate the problems before they're insurmountable? I dunno...
dang it, I wish things were different for you. I mean it. In spite of you having said, somewhere, you have no talent and are a curmudgeon, I think you are very talented, with a great appreciation for the Japanese, and curmudgeons are not nearly as sensitive to others as you regularly demonstrate.
Well, I didn't think I was going to jump in here, but George's hurt, despair, sadness, etc. got to me so I've got a little to ramble on about. I've not shared this with too many people, so bare with me as I try to get it out.
I was married for 23 years. We met my first year in college, dated a bit, I got in twi that year, went WOW the next - - he got in that year I was gone. I came back to school, he wanted to get married, I did not, we tried it as friends. We were sexually active during this time - - I was on the pill (irregular cycles that others shared about above - - yada, yada, yada) - - I got pregnant - - I didn't want to be pregnant or with him the rest of my life, but there it was. Well, after a lot of pressure from his parents and my sister, and WayBrain thoughts of "any two believers can make it work" , we got married, had our wonderful son who is now 29 and made a go of it.
Sooooo, for the next 23 years, I worked, he went to school - - on and off for 18 years. Start. Stop. Start. Drop out. Start. Fail. Worked window cleaning :blink: :( and made no money - - so my salary over the years supported us. However, looking back, it is clear our marriage and child derailed his life and although we were loving with each other (including a great sex life) and didn't often fight, I don't think our lives were anything that either of us really wanted them to be and over the years the lack of financial support from him of our family weared on me. And yeah, we were twig coordinators all that time, did the Family Corps at some point, but were not twi freaks or nazis.
So long story short, he's one of those people who should NEVER be self employed - - kept &$*#ty records, unorganized, didn't pay taxes, was in the red. Over the years, the debt of unpaid taxes, etc. , school debt, not enough in my salary to support us and our children's need (we had another one eventually, 14 years later), the debt increased and my salary - - though I started eventually to make decent money in my marketing career, wasn't enough to keep up.
I begged him to get a job. Our high school son one summer worked at Taco Bell for 2 mos and made more money than hubby for the year. What's wrong with that picture, honey? How about getting a real job with a paycheck? Wouldn't do it. This went on year after year. We didn't fight about money, but every first quarter when it was time to pay taxes, he was more in debt and "we" became more in debt. I begged him to talk to the other successful window cleaning twi guys near us (who he knew and was close friends with). No deal. I asked him to go to counseling. No deal. Every April, I felt like I could just hit "play" on the tape recorder and the very same conversation and words would come out. Sigh.
Once I turned 40 I started to think that this was not how I wanted the rest of my life to look. No other man. No career ladder to climb, but the simple needs (dentist, doctor, an occasional vacation) of our family continued to go unmet, until I finally had to make a decision to take care of my family or eventually get into a situation where I was forced into bankruptcy.
Over the years, particularly the last 10, I brought this topic up a few times a year. Then, I would say the last 5, the dishonesty of how he was conducting his business and the burden it put on me really took its toll in our intimacy. It wasn't that I wasn't horny (yes, I use that term) (and yes I frequently am), it was just that the intimacy erroded with our marriage impasse, until I finally drew the line in the sand and said, either you attend this counseling session with me, it's over. He didn't attend. I filed. I left with our youngest son and $22,000 of his (our) debt.
Now, why did I share all of that? Because he honestly was shocked that there was a problem. He was shocked I wanted a divorce. But even after we talked when I said I was going to file and would have loved to see us work it out, he still would not go to counseling to work it out. I gave it one more year. And you know what he did? Not go out and get a job, but went back to school.
His family thinks to this day that I just was aggressively "career minded" (Sure! in a middle management job) or that there was another man - - it couldn't have possibly been him! I didn't move up the career ladder until after our divorce, btw - - and 7 years later, I'm still single (and horny; lol)
So George, you know what I really would have loved to have happened? I would have loved for him to rise up in character and fight for his family, at the very minimum. We had a college aged son at home and an 8 year old. The real dream would have been to see him, in his professed love for me, fight for the love he said he had. Didn't happen. No "please don't go". No "I'm sorry." No "let's try counseling." Not even a "let's try to stay together for the kids." But it takes two to try to fight for it - - and one to at least try to pursue the other - - which I believe I tried to do in earnest for the last 10 years of our marriage.
So, I feel your pain. I feel your overwhelming sadness. I feel your lost dreams. I feel your weeping at night when no one else can see and you fall asleep on a wet pillow. I felt bitter at times, too. I was angry to the point of being a little "down on men" for a while. Divorce is awful. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But how you feel now will change in a year or two. You'll get through it, as many of us who post here and have been divorced, have. You'll heal. You'll enjoy things again. You'll find yourself as an individual again, not part of a married couple. You'll smile. You'll have fun. And, you'll maybe even venture out to meet new people - - maybe even of the opposite sex! You might even date again (shudder! but that's another thread for sure!) - - AND have sex - - and get a little bumped and bruised in the process of all that - - and live through it. There really IS light and life at the end of the tunnel.
Please hang in there. It really is a grieving process and it really, really, really does get better. 7 years later, I think I might even consider a serious relationship and/or marriage again. I sure didn't think that the first or second year.
I didn't mean to be so depressing. There really IS an upside to the story (which I was going to come back and write after a break). Although divorce is hard, I think it's a lot harder to be in the wrong marriage/relationship. A part of me was slowly dying. Now that I'm on with my life, I'm finally back to that full of life, vivacious woman I once felt like I was. So that's not a bad thing, IMHO.
He finally did take school seriously after the divorce and actually graduated, got his teaching credential and is actually receiving a paycheck now as a middle school teacher - - so people CAN get their lives back on track in their 50s. sigh
We now have a very loving, supportive relationship (3000 miles away) and jointly support and love and nurture our sons (though I have custody of the younger one still at home). We talk regularly and even swap dating and relationship stories. He was there for me when my sister died and was a huge support. I've been supportive to him in his endeavors. We are both very happy in our lives and do not regret our time together - - just that it took so long to get to this point.
Our sons have adjusted well and I'm nearly sane (little joke there). And, although I don't really want to be single the rest of my life, I'm quite content in my little home, in my little world, with my son and dog :)
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justloafing
IMHO in short................Bull Shirt!!!! This country and it's laws screwed all that up.
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johniam
God has less power than this country and its laws? Hmm.
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rascal
Well, all I can say is that we are *committed* .....so what? BFD..... doesn`t necessarily make it a happy thing.
But hey.... We are doing our duty....We are honoring our commitment ....We are completely disgusted with one another much of the time...irritated beyond measure by one another..... but that doesn`t REALLY matter because by golly we have kept our vows <_<
God no doubt is ecstatic with our level of commitment in the face of our obvious misery <_< ...bet he even has special little jewels for the crowns of boys and girls who have been so good <_<
All of the prayer and all of the placating ...all of the catering you can bring to bear will not change someone against their will. Sometimes it is just a bad fit and I think that it would be much better to recognise this and change things as early as possible (before children) ...rather than spending a life time honoring a promise made, but miserable.
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Galen
I do think that it often is a game for ladies.
Do they don't say: "Horny" because they simply don't feel 'that' way.And would rather say: "Oh gawd no! Not that again. Didn't we just do that last year?"
I agree that men are from one place and women are from an entirely different place.
:)
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rascal
I am not nearly so jaded as my prior post would indicate....(wish I could edit it to tone it down a bit lol) I do believe in staying married.....I just think that it would be better if folks stayed together because they wanted to be together rather than forced because of having made a commitment....lol...
When posting I was actually thinking more about a Christian neighbor I had a neighbor who was married to a jerk.... absolutely miserable believing that God required her to stay with some one who was unbelievably irritating.....she had been married over 20 years.......maybe this is all reminding me of being perpetually trapped in a bad wow year.....stuck with a family member who`s presence is like fingernails on a chalk board...lol ....you know you remember....toughin it out till aug because you made a committment to God......only THIS time august isn`t ever coming?
It is pretty funny actually, I spoke to spouse tonight about what I had written....(his comments reminded me a little of you George) and he feels entirely different than I do ...(big suprise lol) firmly believing in staying together for the commitments sake...divorce not being an option in his mind.....thinks that things are just fine.....etc
Seeing things from your pov George, I realised that I don`t want my spouse suprised and angry when the last child is grown ...and that I might want out... up untill now, he thought I had been kidding about the countdown.....I see now that I am going to make a genuine effort to be absolutely chrystal clear.....though in my mind I thought I HAD been all of this time....Thankyou George.
I suppose when you are stuck with one another....divorce not being an option....you work harder at it.....you make an effort to change the things that drive one another the nuttiest.
All I know is that somehow nearly 20 years have slipped by while we have tried to get it all figured out
Maybe we are just a little slow or something ya think?.... I certainly don`t dismiss the possibility that we might eventually figure it all out.
I like sock`s annalogy best of all about the velcro.... I like Shellon`s observation about being a crock pot as well ...lol
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marypoppins
I got married at 20 i loved him very much, we had a son. God was not in the picture in our marriage.
My son is 6 weeks old and hubby was not getting enough sleep, so i went to stay at my parents for a
few nights, Saturday morning came and i took myself and son back to the marital home, when i walked
in the bedroom he was in Bed with my best friend. Well thats a whole nother story...
But 16 months later i met powerfilled, he loved GOD with all his heart, i thought he was a crack pot.
I believed there was a GOD but didnt think i needed him in my life, We would talk for hours, share secrets
it was a friendship that was building, He had also caught his wife cheating, we use to talk about how
hurt we were. Not realising that this was becoming more than a friendship.
I Tried so hard to not get attached, No-way was i going through all that hurt again. But i was falling in
LOVE, he was different, Caring, Understanding, Positive, Funny, He loved God, Loved everyone,
never looked on the bad in people, had a Great sense of humour. Made me laugh, 18 Months later
we were married. We both were totally committed to what our vows meant divorce was not a option
for either of us. Commitment and communication was most important to me. I wanted to know how he was feeling, or if i did things that upset him, or visa versa, i didnt want us to take each other for granted,
and he always told me that nothing was impossible for GOD, that any situation could be sorted,
So here we are 18 years later with 3 wonderful Kids (teenagers) and he is still the same person
i befriended 18 years ago, I love him unconditionally, hes my lover, my best friend, my soul mate,
my protector, Familys provider, and a really special MAN.....
Life has far been from easy, what with twi, me having cancer, spinal surgery, house caught fire (due to faulty boiler) and much more that i dont want to bore anyone with,
but never has a day gone by that we dont tell each other how much we love each other.
We have our arguments like all couples, but when you LOVE someone its worth communicating,
and never let the sun go down upon your wrath. The quicker you sort it out the better,
Yes i know it has to be a two way flow, but everyone deserves a taste of happiness, except some dont
realise that they had happiness and let it go. They dont realise how much they took advantage until that person is gone. They say u never realise what you had until its gone.
HOW VERY TRUE....... I thought that no-one would want me at twenty with a 16 month old son, but someone
did, and now i am Thankful to God, for giving me a MAN that i can love and cherish for all the days of my
life. Through the good times and the bad, in sickness and in health.
Selfishness does not live in a marriage. My first marriage proved that.
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Digitalis
MaryPoppins,
That was absolutely beautiful. When I read your life with your marriage it reminded me of my own. So many similarities.
Marriage can be beautiful ...... I thank God daily that I am blessed with a tremendously wonderful caring husband who has as well stuck by my side through sickness and in health. Slept in a recliner chair, in a hospital for a month next to my bed without complaint and took care of me when we got home.
Love is out there and marriage can be fantastic. I as well had one bad marriage but I was not willing to throw all of Gods beautiful men away because of one bad apple. I thank God for the beautiful man he sent me way.
Digi
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justloafing
Never said that. What I am saying is many people stay together because of what a pain in the butt it is to be divorsed in this country.
As I have read in the two posts above MaryPoppins and Digitalis'. Yes I see it as a commitment before God. I believe in the vows. As you can read in the two posts, there were spouses that did not take their vows serious. If that happens and you stay with the person that does not take vows serious. I see a set up for misery and possible abuse. Does God want that? Eff no He does not. God would want you out of that situation ASAP. Commitment takes two people in a relationship. IMHO two people can be just as commited towards each other never being married. I don't think God minds that one bit.
Bottom line to get a divorse takes some nads because of all the hoops you have to go through to get out of a bad situation.
Ie. I had a couple that lived above me when I was 19. He beat the effn crap out of her time and time again. You would here her say "NO CARL" then a huge thud. The thud was her hitting the ground. A couple of years later I saw her around town. I had moved. She had a bandage covering half of her face. I asked her if Carl had done that. She said yes but he did not mean to hurt her. I know why she was still with him deserves another thread but my point. Did God want that for her? How far should people take a commitment johniam? There are times when it is over and nothing should stop it.
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johniam
quote: Do they don't say: "Horny" because they simply don't feel 'that' way.
And would rather say: "Oh gawd no! Not that again. Didn't we just do that last year?"
That's funny. Yeah. Any woman who chronically refuses to have sex with her husband has already broken the marriage vow herself; why be shocked if the man responds in kind by looking elsewhere.
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justloafing
So that means the man should break his commitment? So two wrongs do make a right? Wow that is commitment. :blink:
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johniam
No, 2 wrongs don't make a right; they make a human, just like 1 wrong. Same old same old double standard. Women can blame everything on their hormones and not take responsibility, but men are all GUILTY!!!!!
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justloafing
:huh: :huh: :huh: wtf is that all about?
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rascal
Yeah that was the same way wierwille justified adultery. The woman DARNED well better keep herself alluring and cater to the hubby`s every apetite and be an angel but a devil in the bedroom....blah de blah...all about pleasing the guy....blah de blah.....
The poor guys just cannot help themselves......they are horney...... the poor guys cannot help being angry enough to clock the annoying women.....
According to Johns/wierwilles pov..It sounds to me like the poor guys are just plain WEAK and looking for a scape goat <_<
Consider the source of where you come by these ideas ......
There guys bear no responsibility ......
I knew darned well in twi as a corpes wife I`d darned well BETTER not get fat..... and I`d darned well BETTER not make my spouse mad enough to hit me....if I did it would have been MY fault for being so abysmally foolish to irritate him to that point.........and I darned well BETTER be ready day or night when and where whether I wanted to not to engage in sex.....
This wasn`t even what my spouse demanded....just what we had both been taught was my responsibility as a virtuous woman.
It was a mighty sick system........one that didn`t equip us as a couple and has taken many years to sort through and undue the damage inflicted.
The funny part is ...though it seemed grossly unfair at the time.... it never occured to me to call any of this into question......I accepted this as the *Godly* way to do things.
John, you are not propounding a biblical or christian way that a marriage should be.
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HAPe4me
My wife's vows never included the words "I will give him sex", did yours? If a wife chronically refuses sex, there might be a failure by the man to do anything which might inspire her to consider it something meaningful. It might also mean she has a physical reason, or quite often, a concern about an unwanted pregnancy and her husband refuses to take reasonable precautions against it, or to discuss some alternatives, such as vasectomy. Why is it that in our culture so often responsibility for such things is shoved onto the wife to take drugs for thirty years to prevent pregnancy? you will probably now say something about rhythm. HAH!
Some men (and women too) also often do not realize that some women are not as regular as clockword in theri ovulation. This is especially true as we advance in years. This can cause deep concerns about unwanted prenancies, which then cause deep concerns as to what to do about them afterward. In short, things are not as simple as bible thumping tyrants might make them sound.
Johniam, you seem to think that having sex is an obligation to be provided on demand by the wife. I think it should be more a reaction by both husband and wife to romance, communication, love, friendship, attachment, comfort and joy, all wrapped up in an emotional package. It is revolting, IMHO, to think of sex as nothing more than jacking off in a woman's body. What a bore that would be.
~HAP
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krys
No we get the same feelings, I assure you although I can't say if they are identical. We feel horny...we just express it in other ways...this is one of the few times, we're not so verbal!
I can only speak for myself on your other comment, but my husband would never initiate anything if he knew I was sick. We'd spoon sometimes if I was sick, or he was, but there were occasions where I asked for a rain check...sometimes he'd press a little and I changed my mind...sometimes I wouldn't. We honored each other that way...but again, I can't speak for Jane Q.
Yes we are, but it's not just mentally so - - there are real differences that are built in.
======================================================================
As for hormones: I did have month to month aggravations, but I was never pregnant as we adopted our children. I can speak about menopause and that was (for me) a nightmare and a half. By the time I got to that stage in my life I had learned to control my outward self enough but that made it even worse. Daytimes were sometimes tough, but night sweats were so bad that when they woke me up I felt scuzzy enough to need a shower at 3 am. When I was done, often I'd try to go back to bed, but the sheets were still damp so I'd lay on the sofa in my robe. Lack of sleep together with hormonal surges during the day make for one cranky lady. Trust me.
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HAPe4me
This feels like it will be a long post, but I hope it helps someone to face today and tomorrow.
I have been married for 30 years to my wife. We met as WOW's 31 years ago, which seems like eons. We have been through a cult, business failures, business successes, changing goals, raising children, EMPTY NESTERS, menopause, deaths of loved ones, car wrecks, car purchases, houses, investments, schools, pets.... all those things that create places where some people jump ship. We still love each other, care for each other, dream together, plan together, sleep together.........all those things which we saw ahead for us together on our wedding day. We have hope.....(I like using that word in other than a Return of Christ meaning). It is good.
Some might say I/we are the lucky ones. To some degree that may be true, but far and away, I see it more as one of our more profitable investments of time, money, energy and emotions. I truly feel for those of you who have not found the sort of happiness and comfort level my wife and I have shared for all these years. I cannot imagine what hurt I would have if things were different for me than they are in my marriage. I wish I had answers for those of you who have not had a reality that is so well. About all I can say is I hope you keep a glimmer of hope. It could still be there for you.
I want to give mention more to the issue of empty nesters. So much of our first 27 years was invested in raising children together. There were schools, PTA, kid sports, vacations to show the kids something outside of Colorado......It seems that doing things with/for the kids occupied most of our waking hours. It was good.
I supposed that facing being empty nesters might be the biggest obstacle to our future life together. While we had kids, some leadership told us "you need to make time for yourselves"- we ignored them. "Date nights" were popular for married couples when we were in TWI- we never did them. We CHOSE always to go to dinner with the boys, we CHOSE always to stay at home with them. We CHOSE always to take them to movies or to sport events. We CHOSE always to vacation with them. Our children were the focus of everything that was our lives, but we CHOSE IT TOGETHER, and it was good.
Off to college the boys went. For a fleeting moment we wondered what was ahead for us in a life that heretofore had been so prevailed upon by raising kids. We needn't have worried. We had chosen that life together, and we would face the future the same way... together. My mother told us that now we would need to "kinda-sorta fall in love again" (those were her exact words.)
You have to find new direction, new goals, new bliss. My wife has a paying job now, which we were able to avoid while the kids were home. We experiment more with different things to do. Cultural events, dining places, friends, decorating, antiquing.....the list is endless. But we will do it together, just as we have for 30 years. It is different now, but it is the same. You need to fall in love all over again, never kinda-sorta having fallen out of love. You invest in it, you nourish it, water it, spread some sunshine on it. It is good.... just like we have done for 31 years (counting the WOW year), the same, only different.
I am really, ~HAPe4me
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HAPe4me
gawd, now I AM horny LOL
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George Aar
Rascal,
Geeze, I'm glad I was able to give a little insight. I really am. Nice to know that all the heartache and introspection of the last 6 or 8 months wasn't entirely in vain.
Could I suggest maybe finding a GOOD counselor for a bit? I really have no experience with them (well, the marital kind, anyway), but, if what I'm experiencing is the norm, you don't wanna try the alternative. It's just too goddam hard. It really is. The regret, the hopelessness, the guilt, the tainted memories of your whole life, the things that you used to love to remember now only make you cry. The overall dispair. There's just nothing good about it. Not a goddam thing.
Far better, I would think, would be working out what makes you unhappy in your current relationship. Unless you decide to live alone, you'll just end up with another boneheaded, jerkoff man again anyway. Wouldn't be easier to work with the one you've got already?
When I met with my lawyer (an old friend I've gone to school with since the third grade), he told me "Sorry to say it George, but you fit the profile". That is, divorces tend to happen the most at two times during the marriage. Once at about 7 years (the infamous "7-year-itch") - where it's usually the husband leaving the wife for a girl with a tighter butt and perkier breasts. And then again at around 20 years, where it's usually the wife leaving the husband because she's disappointed with where her life went and blames it all (rightly or wrongly) on her choice of husbands.
Maybe knowing the natural tendancies towards divorce can help us aleviate the problems before they're insurmountable? I dunno...
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HAPe4me
Well said George, and very appropriate.
dang it, I wish things were different for you. I mean it. In spite of you having said, somewhere, you have no talent and are a curmudgeon, I think you are very talented, with a great appreciation for the Japanese, and curmudgeons are not nearly as sensitive to others as you regularly demonstrate.
~HAP
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jardinero
Well, I didn't think I was going to jump in here, but George's hurt, despair, sadness, etc. got to me so I've got a little to ramble on about. I've not shared this with too many people, so bare with me as I try to get it out.
I was married for 23 years. We met my first year in college, dated a bit, I got in twi that year, went WOW the next - - he got in that year I was gone. I came back to school, he wanted to get married, I did not, we tried it as friends. We were sexually active during this time - - I was on the pill (irregular cycles that others shared about above - - yada, yada, yada) - - I got pregnant - - I didn't want to be pregnant or with him the rest of my life, but there it was. Well, after a lot of pressure from his parents and my sister, and WayBrain thoughts of "any two believers can make it work"
, we got married, had our wonderful son who is now 29 and made a go of it.
Sooooo, for the next 23 years, I worked, he went to school - - on and off for 18 years. Start. Stop. Start. Drop out. Start. Fail. Worked window cleaning
:blink: :( and made no money - - so my salary over the years supported us. However, looking back, it is clear our marriage and child derailed his life and although we were loving with each other (including a great sex life) and didn't often fight, I don't think our lives were anything that either of us really wanted them to be and over the years the lack of financial support from him of our family weared on me. And yeah, we were twig coordinators all that time, did the Family Corps at some point, but were not twi freaks or nazis.
So long story short, he's one of those people who should NEVER be self employed - - kept &$*#ty records, unorganized, didn't pay taxes, was in the red. Over the years, the debt of unpaid taxes, etc. , school debt, not enough in my salary to support us and our children's need (we had another one eventually, 14 years later), the debt increased and my salary - - though I started eventually to make decent money in my marketing career, wasn't enough to keep up.
I begged him to get a job. Our high school son one summer worked at Taco Bell for 2 mos and made more money than hubby for the year. What's wrong with that picture, honey? How about getting a real job with a paycheck? Wouldn't do it. This went on year after year. We didn't fight about money, but every first quarter when it was time to pay taxes, he was more in debt and "we" became more in debt. I begged him to talk to the other successful window cleaning twi guys near us (who he knew and was close friends with). No deal. I asked him to go to counseling. No deal. Every April, I felt like I could just hit "play" on the tape recorder and the very same conversation and words would come out. Sigh.
Once I turned 40 I started to think that this was not how I wanted the rest of my life to look. No other man. No career ladder to climb, but the simple needs (dentist, doctor, an occasional vacation) of our family continued to go unmet, until I finally had to make a decision to take care of my family or eventually get into a situation where I was forced into bankruptcy.
Over the years, particularly the last 10, I brought this topic up a few times a year. Then, I would say the last 5, the dishonesty of how he was conducting his business and the burden it put on me really took its toll in our intimacy. It wasn't that I wasn't horny (yes, I use that term) (and yes I frequently am), it was just that the intimacy erroded with our marriage impasse, until I finally drew the line in the sand and said, either you attend this counseling session with me, it's over. He didn't attend. I filed. I left with our youngest son and $22,000 of his (our) debt.
Now, why did I share all of that? Because he honestly was shocked that there was a problem. He was shocked I wanted a divorce. But even after we talked when I said I was going to file and would have loved to see us work it out, he still would not go to counseling to work it out. I gave it one more year. And you know what he did? Not go out and get a job, but went back to school.
His family thinks to this day that I just was aggressively "career minded" (Sure! in a middle management job) or that there was another man - - it couldn't have possibly been him! I didn't move up the career ladder until after our divorce, btw - - and 7 years later, I'm still single (and horny; lol)
So George, you know what I really would have loved to have happened? I would have loved for him to rise up in character and fight for his family, at the very minimum. We had a college aged son at home and an 8 year old. The real dream would have been to see him, in his professed love for me, fight for the love he said he had. Didn't happen. No "please don't go". No "I'm sorry." No "let's try counseling." Not even a "let's try to stay together for the kids." But it takes two to try to fight for it - - and one to at least try to pursue the other - - which I believe I tried to do in earnest for the last 10 years of our marriage.
So, I feel your pain. I feel your overwhelming sadness. I feel your lost dreams. I feel your weeping at night when no one else can see and you fall asleep on a wet pillow. I felt bitter at times, too. I was angry to the point of being a little "down on men" for a while. Divorce is awful. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But how you feel now will change in a year or two. You'll get through it, as many of us who post here and have been divorced, have. You'll heal. You'll enjoy things again. You'll find yourself as an individual again, not part of a married couple. You'll smile. You'll have fun. And, you'll maybe even venture out to meet new people - - maybe even of the opposite sex! You might even date again (shudder! but that's another thread for sure!) - - AND have sex - - and get a little bumped and bruised in the process of all that - - and live through it. There really IS light and life at the end of the tunnel.
Please hang in there. It really is a grieving process and it really, really, really does get better. 7 years later, I think I might even consider a serious relationship and/or marriage again. I sure didn't think that the first or second year.
Fondly,
J.
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WhiteDove
:( Well this has been a depressing read. Guess I'll take a walk along the trail, probably not a good day to attend the gun show....... :blink:
There are those who worship loneliness, I'm not one of them,
In this age of fiberglass I'm searching for a gem.
The crystal ball up on the wall hasn't shown me nothing yet,
I've paid the price of solitude, but at last I'm out of debt. - Dylan
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jardinero
Well, Doveman ~
LOL on your gun comment
I didn't mean to be so depressing. There really IS an upside to the story (which I was going to come back and write after a break). Although divorce is hard, I think it's a lot harder to be in the wrong marriage/relationship. A part of me was slowly dying. Now that I'm on with my life, I'm finally back to that full of life, vivacious woman I once felt like I was. So that's not a bad thing, IMHO.
He finally did take school seriously after the divorce and actually graduated, got his teaching credential and is actually receiving a paycheck now as a middle school teacher - - so people CAN get their lives back on track in their 50s. sigh
We now have a very loving, supportive relationship (3000 miles away) and jointly support and love and nurture our sons (though I have custody of the younger one still at home). We talk regularly and even swap dating and relationship stories. He was there for me when my sister died and was a huge support. I've been supportive to him in his endeavors. We are both very happy in our lives and do not regret our time together - - just that it took so long to get to this point.
Our sons have adjusted well and I'm nearly sane (little joke there). And, although I don't really want to be single the rest of my life, I'm quite content in my little home, in my little world, with my son and dog :)
J.
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excathedra
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WhiteDove
Exie -
Doveinero - Glad there was a happy ending, but it was not your post just the whole thread in general or maybe it's me...... :)
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