The word "ever" (in the context of marriage/relationships) would mean that the person is in a permant box, people and circomstance will "never" change.
Since I have "change" over the years (job, where I live, hobbies, attitudes towards somethings). To say that I will not continue to change in a relationship would be at a minimum, would not be honest. To be fair, some changes in the girlfriend/spouse will be acceptable and thare may be some changes down the road that may occour that may might not be acceptable.
I believe that in a marriage, that divorce should not be a first choice (unless there is either physical, emotional or verbal abuse). And I believe that many problems that may happen in a relationship can be worked out, however there are something that can not be worked out.
I was divorced. I am married again. The two marriages are like night and day.
There is no one answer to every relationship. Each relationship, I believe, gives us learning. Sometimes we have to touch the hot stove many times before we realize it is hot. I was in a few crappy relationships with twi men before I met my hubby. TWI did nothing to promote a healthy relationship. My husband and I are partners. Nobody calls the shots. We take each other's thoughts and opinions in to consideration. We don't always agree. That's when I get out a piece of paper and write down pros and cons or timelines so hubby can see what I am talking about. He is a kind of "live for today" kind of guy, and I am more of a planner. I remind him that we can't wait until the moment comes to make a decision. We come to a happy medium because neither of us are in charge.
It's things like that that you have to learn at the beginning of a relationship before you make decisions. I had a whole list of questions for men that I was dating before I got married. If they were divorced, I wanted to know why. If they didn't know why, that was a red flag. I asked everything from "How much am radio do you listen to?" to "Have you ever had sex with a man?" If they weren't comfortable to answer those questions, then they weren't interested in honesty and a real relationship. Of course, I didn't ask this on the first date. I only brought out the questions when I knew something was starting.
I don't feel remorse anymore for my first divorce. It was a learning situation for me. I knew I made the right decision. Even though I went in to it with every intention of "forever", I went in with blindness and a cult mentality. That does not excuse me. But it is a reality in the world we live in. You can never say anything will last forever because you just don't know what the future holds. I feel that my current hubby and I will be married the rest of our lives. I trust his judgment. He trusts mine. It is not a perfect relationship, but it is ideal for us.
There are no guarantees for a "forever" relationship, but you can do your homework before you get in to a relationship. Both my husband and I have experienced divorce. We were both hurt. I think as time goes on after a divorce and you see things from a different perspective, you will get answers to things that bugged you for a long time.
Belle, in your situation, there was no remote possibility for a mentally healthy individual able to continue in a relationship with a complete cult-brained person. You went in to it with every right intention. I think God honors that. But I also know He knows the culture we live in and the influences we had (TWI). He knows our hearts when we seek Him. That's what you were doing. Seeking Him instead of some cult-ure.
Hardly anybody in TWI went in to a marriage thinking that they would divorce because the other person "copped out". I left my ex for that reason. But I REALLY left him because he was not mentally healthy. He did drugs. That wasn't a good enough reason for twi. When my ex left twi, then it was OK. Marriage is not forever in twi. There are strings attached. You just don't know it until you are already in the thick of it and realize that your beliefs are in question. We certainly didn't think that we would ever question our beliefs before going in to the marriage. We had everything we needed for a successful marriage....yeah right. God knew it from the start. Forever was doomed in that scenario.
Unalterable Commitment: that just isn't a reality in life. Especially the way it is held above your head to make you obey that commitment and then demand obedience like a nazi. I would run far and fast if someone did that to me.
Do you feel that marriage is an unalterable commitment no matter what? That people should not have the option of divorce EVER?
Tough question--Maybe it is the way that it is set up that is faulty--I think that the vows should be taken very very seriously but I dont think that marriage should be a jail or torture sentence either.
IMO too many take the vows way too lightly and change their minds the way they would change their fashions --which to me is just a mockery of the institution.
Others cling on who should never have married in the first place. Some work through hard times and make it work, others can't.
I don't know for everybody -I really don't--- These days it almost seems the practical thing in alot of circles would be to treat it like sports --take an X year contract with options to renew
ZShot, thanks! That's the way it should work, imo. We grow together and we allow each other to grow in individual ways. That's how it should be anyway. We all change over the years and doing that with someone you love has got to be the best!
You are so right-on, Shaz! Funny how things become important when it works in the other party's interest. Same with TWI.
WN!, I think that my ex didn't really marry ME, but someone he thought he could make into who HE wanted them to be. After spending a lot of time with my family over the past year, I've learned a lot more about the changes in my personality, self-esteem and behavior than I could have ever learned on my own or in therapy and, after hearing their stories, I'm SOOOOOOO glad that I did finally get free from that commitment. Another reason why I will live with someone before getting married again. My family means the world to me and whoever I marry has to be able to see how wonderful they are and be able to take it and dish it out when it comes to their humor.
MStar, I agree that every situation is unique. What works in one situation may not work in another. There *should* be a commitment and it should be made with the utmost of intentions of keeping their word. But when it's not right, the parties should be able to handle it according to what's best for them.
Thanks for the input, y'all! I really do appreciate it!
I feel guilty enough about my marriage not working
Aw, don't. Don't feel that way. You're on the sunny side now.
Do you feel that marriage is an unalterable commitment no matter what? That people should not have the option of divorce EVER?
I would compare "committment" to velcro. Both sides have to have the sticky, and the stick in the wick is to each other.
I think that's something a lot of people don't understand. Individuals have their own "committments", plans, desires, goals, stuff. Marriage is the "committment" to join those. What's mine's yours and bossa nova. It works both ways to work, or it doesn't.
Your marriage wasn't like that. You had your part to bring to it and it was refused, diminished, ignored. That's not a marriage "committment", there's no mutual sharing or respect. What are you, chipped beef? That's not right.
Getting married is, to me, like two people making a place to pour themselves into and sharing the result as "one".
Love is never wasted, I believe. It'll come back to you, in bushels. Believe it.
I guess it might be nice to have enough control over your spouse to say that you're gonna stay together come hell or high water.
Problem is, though it sure takes two to keep the commitment, it only takes one to break it.
I sure never anticipated going through a divorce, just never.
Sometimes things just don't go the way you've planned...
Socks,
Re:"Love is never wasted, I believe. It'll come back to you, in bushels. Believe it. "
I wish that were true. I really do.
But as somebody's sainted grandmother once said "Wish in one hand and spit in the other, and see which one dries up first." (I think I understand that)...
I sure never anticipated going through a divorce, just never.
Sometimes things just don't go the way you've planned...
Me neither. Even when things were worst in my (first) marriage, I still didn't consider divorce. Because I didn't consider it, I put up with all manner of abuse, even being thrown out of my own house.
It was only when I realized what salvaging my marriage meant that I filed for divorce.
I too believed in the *commitment*... never contemplated divorce.... sigh the problem with this is....that even though we DO work through the tough times because of having had this mind set........the reality is.... though we have remained married because of this ..... it seems like we have spent almost 20 years tolerating each other at best and driving each other nuts at worst......
In truth, I do not think that there is anything really drastically wrong with either one of us....but life would have been much more enjoyable had we been with people that enjoyed/valued/wanted to persue the same things in life.
I wonder what would have happened if divorce had been an allowable consideration before we were commtted to raising these kiddoes....
Maybe we both would have found someone that we truly enjoyed being with.
I am kind of envious of you guys who were able to recognise a bad fit and take action early, before there were children to consider.
As it is.... I know that there are 12 yrs 3 months....so many weeks.....lol untill the last child turns 18 and I gain the freedom to do as *I* please. <_<
(((RASCAL))) I completely understand. For what it's worth, you're an awesome Mommy and you have the world's greatest kids!
Oak, I also didn't contemplate divorce and it never even entered my mind till the last year, but you already knew that. ;) When I started fantasizing about very bad things happening to one of us and hit rock bottom emotionally and mentally, that's when I realized I *had* to do something. I started with visits to a psychiatrist and therapist to help fix the things that were obviously wrong with *me*. It was clear that divorce was the only option when that made things worse at home (I was sharing deep, dark secrets about our marriage and TWI and that's a horrible thing).
Even then, I wasn't the one who asked for the divorce, it was him. He said that I was an "unbeliever" and no longer "pleased to dwell" with him. Since I really was no longer "pleased to dwell" with him, we divorced and it was so amicable that people were shocked. However, that changed dramatically when he found out I was posting on GSpot.
Getting married is, to me, like two people making a place to pour themselves into and sharing the result as "one".
Love is never wasted, I believe. It'll come back to you, in bushels. Believe it.
Socks, that was a wonderful post. Thank you very much! I particularly like these two lines. Two people pouring themselves into something together brings a beautiful picture to my mind. Would that I was an artist and could paint what I see. :)
Shaz, when it's the right thing to do, it's like five thousand tons have been lifted off your shoulders, isn't it? I felt soooooo much better after he moved out that I felt guilty about it for a long time. Today I enjoy being single, but still hope to find Mr. Right out there someday.
George, I wish I had something to say that would make you feel better. I don't though. I know you feel betrayed and hurt and angry and I suspect that's much like my ex felt/feels. He thought I was cheating on him and I wasn't. I just didn't want to be at home with him and his negative, angry attitude and TWIt brain. It hurt to be around him, so I did everything I could to not be at home when he was. I hated to hurt him, but it couldn't be helped. My heart still aches for the pain I know he's in, but I can't make his life better - only he can. I'm so sorry that you've been hurt, too.
My situation isn't entirely analygous to yours, though. Especially, in that, no doubt the whole rest of the world knew our marriage was in trouble, I didn't. I was planning a 20 year anniversary celebration in Mykonos or Tahiti or someplace or other when I got my "Dear John" letter. So there were no lengthy sessions with the marriage counselor or long, heart-rending discussions. There was nothing. Just "I'm leaving and you're not talking me out of this!"
Maybe that's why I haven't entirely come to grips with it. It was ENTIRELY unexpected on my part.
Yeah, I was a dope for not seeing the obvious signs, but then, I've ALWAYS been a dope, so what else is new?
And Socks, I meant to add, though I'm sure your formula about all the love coming back to you and all, works in your life, I think there's a whole class of people out here who it doesn't work for. You're no doubt a good looking, talented popular guy, who's had a habit of winning in life. Maybe not in everything, but in the important stuff. There's a whole bunch of us out here who are none of those things.
We're not popular, not particularly talented, and we have a habit of losing rather regularly. We're the Quasimodos of the world. Ugly, clumsy, always gauche, and often repellant, we yearn for the beautiful Esmereldas but usually get the rejoinder "You're such a nice guy!" as we go home to spend the evening alone. And we can give out all the love we want, but that's going to be our lot in life.
And there's no shortage of us. Hell, there's a dozen or more of us that post regularly on this board alone.
I've got one for a neighbor and another two or three that I work with everyday. So we spend our time having coffee at Denny's and talking about all of our conquests in life, knowing all the while that it's all bull.....
But, like a duck having to swim or a bird having to fly, I think that's our job, whether we like it or not.
I truly do identify with your struggle and your "lot in life". Seems like everything I have or have tried to do I have had to fight for and I really don't have much. It has helped me to meet someone who has struggled as much as I have and understands some of the same hardships.
I think you are articulate and intelligent, which, for me, is very appealing. I know there are other women out there who feel the same. This is not the sunshine-up-your-skirt, mindless feel-good babble I'm throwing at you. I'm just saying I believe anybody can find love, companionship, friendship, whatever they're looking for. While I sense resignation in your posts, I think there's still a little glimmer of hope there too, warily hiding behind cynicism. Keep that little line open. You never know when you'll need it. I certainly didn't.
"Maybe that's why I haven't entirely come to grips with it. It was ENTIRELY unexpected on my part.
Yeah, I was a dope for not seeing the obvious signs, but then, I've ALWAYS been a dope, so what else is new?"
You admit to always being a dope. Most men are LOL! Women drop hints and say a lot of things. Whether men listen or not is kept track of. Yes, we log responses, nonresponses, and hurts. Right or wrong, it happens. Just like most men are always dopes, right or wrong. There comes a time that men have to stretch a little farther to "connect" and hear what she's saying.
My ex husband felt like I just decided overnight to divorce him. I told him one weekend that I was leaving on Monday and when he got home, I wouldn't be there. It was a surprise to him. He pleaded with me to not do it. I "had" it. We had been through several counseling sessions and he always said "It's all my fault." I didn't always believe that is was always his fault. If he always admitted to fault, why didn't he change?
Pure and simple: women want to feel like they are loved. If her husband has other things that appear more important, it hurts her. Hurt her long enough, and she'll most likely move on. If she feels like she is loved, the other things that grate on her will just be a hurdle she jumps over and will be forgotten afterward.
I'm sure there are things that men have perspective on. I just thought I would share one from a woman's perspective. I guess that's why we are from Venus.
Yes, we women do tend to "drop hints," when what we should be doing is making it plain as day what is on our minds. We say things like, "If you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not going to tell you -- you should know!" The poor schlubs aren't mind readers.
I think the guy -- and the relationship, if it is important (and isn't abusive) -- deserves at least one shot at counseling before calling it quits. If nothing else, at least the guy gets to find out why she is mad at him.
Re:"Yes, we women do tend to "drop hints," when what we should be doing is making it plain as day what is on our minds. We say things like, "If you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not going to tell you -- you should know!" The poor schlubs aren't mind readers."
Thank you for that. Indeed, I'm sure there are bunches of women who are quite convinced that they've been over every detail of what they perceive as problems in their marriages. Problem is, their husbands don't know any of it.
I guess women spend a lot of time pondering things like, "Why did she that?" "Why did he mean by THAT?"
"How come she wore THAT sweater?" and other excursions into the world of Freudian motivations and hidden meanings. Men do not. If we're hungry, we say so. Tired? ditto Horny? We make our desires known (generally in plain english). And we generally don't spend ANY time trying to decern the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) hint.
So if you're absolutely positive that he knows exactly how you feel, TELL HIM ANYWAY. GAWD, why do we have to play the farking game, geezus...
I was with my first husband for 16 years. we grew up together, he was my best friend and my brother (which is not a good quality for a husband). When I stood before G-d and Elvis (another story,another time) I was convinced I was going to stay married till the day I died, but as Meatloaf so wonderfully phrased it:
"I was praying for the end of time to hurry up and arrive cause if I had to spend another minute with him, I didn't think that I could really survive"
So all the little things that people who are in love do for each other, the things that make a marriage work we didn't do. That was no way to live not for me and not for my ex-husband, at that point I was a lousy wife, I didn't want to cook for him because then I would have to eat with him and I didn't want to spend that much time with him. I hated going out with him I just didn't want to be around him.
So I left. Would it have been better for my boys if I had stayed with their father? I don't think so, because being a lousy wife I also wasn't the best mother.
I have remarried and it is what marriage is supposed to be, not a "Harlequin Romance" novel, but 2 people who not only love each other but actually LIKE each other. Yes, Jeffrey and I fight, but the kids see two adults disagree and come to some type of resolution. instead of Mommy slamming doors and Dad cursing and leaving.
I do not regret my 1st marriage, I have 2 wonderful boys and I kept all of my in-laws, and David (1st husband) helped make me the person I am today. David agrees we are better parents and partners because of what we went through.
I do have to admit my divorce is uncommon, my ex-husband works with Jeffrey and me, and we spend a great deal of time together, (I often comment it's as if we never got divorced, I see David everyday, I still balance his check book, we still fight about his girlfriends and we still don't have sex).
When we split up, David and I (after the screaming was over) sat down and remembered that at one time we were friends and with some work maybe we could be that again. I am happy to say that David is once again someone who I am proud to say is my friend, someone I love like a brother.
I love being married now, I love being with my Jeffrey and I thank G-d everyday that I had the gumption to divorce David, and to allow myself the opportunity to be happy.
It seems to me that in any Christian marriage ceremony a scripture is read that says God actually joins the 2 together. To be honest, I don't know exactly what that means, but I believe it means SOMETHING.
I DON'T think it means that the couple no longer has to work at doing the 'little things' because "God'll fix everything now". I also DON'T think it means that a black cloud will follow us around for the rest of our lives if we divorce.
But I DO think it means that GOD is involved in our lives in a way He wasn't before, therefore, before any 3rd parties become involved in a dispute, God should be considered/consulted/prayed to etc. Who knows? It just might help the situation.
Nothing that people do is ever going to be fool proof. This applies to the other thread, too. IF God really does join the 2 together, then that would be preferred above shacking up, if the couple is really serious about the relationship. Otherwise, it's just another form of gambling.
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Zshot
The word "ever" (in the context of marriage/relationships) would mean that the person is in a permant box, people and circomstance will "never" change.
Since I have "change" over the years (job, where I live, hobbies, attitudes towards somethings). To say that I will not continue to change in a relationship would be at a minimum, would not be honest. To be fair, some changes in the girlfriend/spouse will be acceptable and thare may be some changes down the road that may occour that may might not be acceptable.
I believe that in a marriage, that divorce should not be a first choice (unless there is either physical, emotional or verbal abuse). And I believe that many problems that may happen in a relationship can be worked out, however there are something that can not be worked out.
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shazdancer
The spouse who wants to abuse you would be happy to have you commit to forever. And that spouse will continue to remind you of your commitment.
Sort of like TWI.
Regards,
Shaz
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Nottawayfer
I was divorced. I am married again. The two marriages are like night and day.
There is no one answer to every relationship. Each relationship, I believe, gives us learning. Sometimes we have to touch the hot stove many times before we realize it is hot. I was in a few crappy relationships with twi men before I met my hubby. TWI did nothing to promote a healthy relationship. My husband and I are partners. Nobody calls the shots. We take each other's thoughts and opinions in to consideration. We don't always agree. That's when I get out a piece of paper and write down pros and cons or timelines so hubby can see what I am talking about. He is a kind of "live for today" kind of guy, and I am more of a planner. I remind him that we can't wait until the moment comes to make a decision. We come to a happy medium because neither of us are in charge.
It's things like that that you have to learn at the beginning of a relationship before you make decisions. I had a whole list of questions for men that I was dating before I got married. If they were divorced, I wanted to know why. If they didn't know why, that was a red flag. I asked everything from "How much am radio do you listen to?" to "Have you ever had sex with a man?" If they weren't comfortable to answer those questions, then they weren't interested in honesty and a real relationship. Of course, I didn't ask this on the first date. I only brought out the questions when I knew something was starting.
I don't feel remorse anymore for my first divorce. It was a learning situation for me. I knew I made the right decision. Even though I went in to it with every intention of "forever", I went in with blindness and a cult mentality. That does not excuse me. But it is a reality in the world we live in. You can never say anything will last forever because you just don't know what the future holds. I feel that my current hubby and I will be married the rest of our lives. I trust his judgment. He trusts mine. It is not a perfect relationship, but it is ideal for us.
There are no guarantees for a "forever" relationship, but you can do your homework before you get in to a relationship. Both my husband and I have experienced divorce. We were both hurt. I think as time goes on after a divorce and you see things from a different perspective, you will get answers to things that bugged you for a long time.
Belle, in your situation, there was no remote possibility for a mentally healthy individual able to continue in a relationship with a complete cult-brained person. You went in to it with every right intention. I think God honors that. But I also know He knows the culture we live in and the influences we had (TWI). He knows our hearts when we seek Him. That's what you were doing. Seeking Him instead of some cult-ure.
Hardly anybody in TWI went in to a marriage thinking that they would divorce because the other person "copped out". I left my ex for that reason. But I REALLY left him because he was not mentally healthy. He did drugs. That wasn't a good enough reason for twi. When my ex left twi, then it was OK. Marriage is not forever in twi. There are strings attached. You just don't know it until you are already in the thick of it and realize that your beliefs are in question. We certainly didn't think that we would ever question our beliefs before going in to the marriage. We had everything we needed for a successful marriage....yeah right. God knew it from the start. Forever was doomed in that scenario.
Unalterable Commitment: that just isn't a reality in life. Especially the way it is held above your head to make you obey that commitment and then demand obedience like a nazi. I would run far and fast if someone did that to me.
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mstar1
Tough question--Maybe it is the way that it is set up that is faulty--I think that the vows should be taken very very seriously but I dont think that marriage should be a jail or torture sentence either.
IMO too many take the vows way too lightly and change their minds the way they would change their fashions --which to me is just a mockery of the institution.
Others cling on who should never have married in the first place. Some work through hard times and make it work, others can't.
I don't know for everybody -I really don't--- These days it almost seems the practical thing in alot of circles would be to treat it like sports --take an X year contract with options to renew
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Belle
ZShot, thanks! That's the way it should work, imo. We grow together and we allow each other to grow in individual ways. That's how it should be anyway. We all change over the years and doing that with someone you love has got to be the best!
You are so right-on, Shaz! Funny how things become important when it works in the other party's interest. Same with TWI.
WN!, I think that my ex didn't really marry ME, but someone he thought he could make into who HE wanted them to be. After spending a lot of time with my family over the past year, I've learned a lot more about the changes in my personality, self-esteem and behavior than I could have ever learned on my own or in therapy and, after hearing their stories, I'm SOOOOOOO glad that I did finally get free from that commitment. Another reason why I will live with someone before getting married again. My family means the world to me and whoever I marry has to be able to see how wonderful they are and be able to take it and dish it out when it comes to their humor.
MStar, I agree that every situation is unique. What works in one situation may not work in another. There *should* be a commitment and it should be made with the utmost of intentions of keeping their word. But when it's not right, the parties should be able to handle it according to what's best for them.
Thanks for the input, y'all! I really do appreciate it!
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socks
I would compare "committment" to velcro. Both sides have to have the sticky, and the stick in the wick is to each other.
I think that's something a lot of people don't understand. Individuals have their own "committments", plans, desires, goals, stuff. Marriage is the "committment" to join those. What's mine's yours and bossa nova. It works both ways to work, or it doesn't.
Your marriage wasn't like that. You had your part to bring to it and it was refused, diminished, ignored. That's not a marriage "committment", there's no mutual sharing or respect. What are you, chipped beef? That's not right.
Getting married is, to me, like two people making a place to pour themselves into and sharing the result as "one".
Love is never wasted, I believe. It'll come back to you, in bushels. Believe it.
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excathedra
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shazdancer
Socks, that's gotta be the most succinct statement about the marriage commitment I've ever heard.
Nice!
Heck, just when I was ready to slink off with Aar and swear off committing forever....
But ya know, it's nice to hear from those for whom it DOES work.
Regards,
Shaz
(single again, and enjoying it!)
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George Aar
I guess it might be nice to have enough control over your spouse to say that you're gonna stay together come hell or high water.
Problem is, though it sure takes two to keep the commitment, it only takes one to break it.
I sure never anticipated going through a divorce, just never.
Sometimes things just don't go the way you've planned...
Socks,
Re:"Love is never wasted, I believe. It'll come back to you, in bushels. Believe it. "
I wish that were true. I really do.
But as somebody's sainted grandmother once said "Wish in one hand and spit in the other, and see which one dries up first." (I think I understand that)...
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Oakspear
It was only when I realized what salvaging my marriage meant that I filed for divorce.
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rascal
I too believed in the *commitment*... never contemplated divorce.... sigh the problem with this is....that even though we DO work through the tough times because of having had this mind set........the reality is.... though we have remained married because of this ..... it seems like we have spent almost 20 years tolerating each other at best and driving each other nuts at worst......
In truth, I do not think that there is anything really drastically wrong with either one of us....but life would have been much more enjoyable had we been with people that enjoyed/valued/wanted to persue the same things in life.
I wonder what would have happened if divorce had been an allowable consideration before we were commtted to raising these kiddoes....
Maybe we both would have found someone that we truly enjoyed being with.
I am kind of envious of you guys who were able to recognise a bad fit and take action early, before there were children to consider.
As it is.... I know that there are 12 yrs 3 months....so many weeks.....lol untill the last child turns 18 and I gain the freedom to do as *I* please. <_<
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Belle
(((RASCAL))) I completely understand. For what it's worth, you're an awesome Mommy and you have the world's greatest kids!
Oak, I also didn't contemplate divorce and it never even entered my mind till the last year, but you already knew that. ;) When I started fantasizing about very bad things happening to one of us and hit rock bottom emotionally and mentally, that's when I realized I *had* to do something. I started with visits to a psychiatrist and therapist to help fix the things that were obviously wrong with *me*. It was clear that divorce was the only option when that made things worse at home (I was sharing deep, dark secrets about our marriage and TWI and that's a horrible thing).
Even then, I wasn't the one who asked for the divorce, it was him. He said that I was an "unbeliever" and no longer "pleased to dwell" with him. Since I really was no longer "pleased to dwell" with him, we divorced and it was so amicable that people were shocked. However, that changed dramatically when he found out I was posting on GSpot.
Socks, that was a wonderful post. Thank you very much! I particularly like these two lines. Two people pouring themselves into something together brings a beautiful picture to my mind. Would that I was an artist and could paint what I see. :)
Shaz, when it's the right thing to do, it's like five thousand tons have been lifted off your shoulders, isn't it? I felt soooooo much better after he moved out that I felt guilty about it for a long time. Today I enjoy being single, but still hope to find Mr. Right out there someday.
George, I wish I had something to say that would make you feel better.
I don't though. I know you feel betrayed and hurt and angry and I suspect that's much like my ex felt/feels. He thought I was cheating on him and I wasn't. I just didn't want to be at home with him and his negative, angry attitude and TWIt brain. It hurt to be around him, so I did everything I could to not be at home when he was. I hated to hurt him, but it couldn't be helped. My heart still aches for the pain I know he's in, but I can't make his life better - only he can. I'm so sorry that you've been hurt, too.
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George Aar
Belle,
I appreciate the sentiments.
My situation isn't entirely analygous to yours, though. Especially, in that, no doubt the whole rest of the world knew our marriage was in trouble, I didn't. I was planning a 20 year anniversary celebration in Mykonos or Tahiti or someplace or other when I got my "Dear John" letter. So there were no lengthy sessions with the marriage counselor or long, heart-rending discussions. There was nothing. Just "I'm leaving and you're not talking me out of this!"
Maybe that's why I haven't entirely come to grips with it. It was ENTIRELY unexpected on my part.
Yeah, I was a dope for not seeing the obvious signs, but then, I've ALWAYS been a dope, so what else is new?
And Socks, I meant to add, though I'm sure your formula about all the love coming back to you and all, works in your life, I think there's a whole class of people out here who it doesn't work for. You're no doubt a good looking, talented popular guy, who's had a habit of winning in life. Maybe not in everything, but in the important stuff. There's a whole bunch of us out here who are none of those things.
We're not popular, not particularly talented, and we have a habit of losing rather regularly. We're the Quasimodos of the world. Ugly, clumsy, always gauche, and often repellant, we yearn for the beautiful Esmereldas but usually get the rejoinder "You're such a nice guy!" as we go home to spend the evening alone. And we can give out all the love we want, but that's going to be our lot in life.
And there's no shortage of us. Hell, there's a dozen or more of us that post regularly on this board alone.
I've got one for a neighbor and another two or three that I work with everyday. So we spend our time having coffee at Denny's and talking about all of our conquests in life, knowing all the while that it's all bull.....
But, like a duck having to swim or a bird having to fly, I think that's our job, whether we like it or not.
Uh unh...
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Zshot
biting my tounge...
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wwjesuslaughat
George,
I truly do identify with your struggle and your "lot in life". Seems like everything I have or have tried to do I have had to fight for and I really don't have much. It has helped me to meet someone who has struggled as much as I have and understands some of the same hardships.
I think you are articulate and intelligent, which, for me, is very appealing. I know there are other women out there who feel the same. This is not the sunshine-up-your-skirt, mindless feel-good babble I'm throwing at you. I'm just saying I believe anybody can find love, companionship, friendship, whatever they're looking for. While I sense resignation in your posts, I think there's still a little glimmer of hope there too, warily hiding behind cynicism. Keep that little line open. You never know when you'll need it. I certainly didn't.
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dmiller
Good advice! :)
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Nottawayfer
Quote by George:
"Maybe that's why I haven't entirely come to grips with it. It was ENTIRELY unexpected on my part.
Yeah, I was a dope for not seeing the obvious signs, but then, I've ALWAYS been a dope, so what else is new?"
You admit to always being a dope. Most men are LOL! Women drop hints and say a lot of things. Whether men listen or not is kept track of. Yes, we log responses, nonresponses, and hurts. Right or wrong, it happens. Just like most men are always dopes, right or wrong. There comes a time that men have to stretch a little farther to "connect" and hear what she's saying.
*********************************************************
My ex husband felt like I just decided overnight to divorce him. I told him one weekend that I was leaving on Monday and when he got home, I wouldn't be there. It was a surprise to him. He pleaded with me to not do it. I "had" it. We had been through several counseling sessions and he always said "It's all my fault." I didn't always believe that is was always his fault. If he always admitted to fault, why didn't he change?
Pure and simple: women want to feel like they are loved. If her husband has other things that appear more important, it hurts her. Hurt her long enough, and she'll most likely move on. If she feels like she is loved, the other things that grate on her will just be a hurdle she jumps over and will be forgotten afterward.
I'm sure there are things that men have perspective on. I just thought I would share one from a woman's perspective. I guess that's why we are from Venus.
Any Martians care to contribute?
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dmiller
My comments would derail the thread.
Maybe later.
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shazdancer
Yes, we women do tend to "drop hints," when what we should be doing is making it plain as day what is on our minds. We say things like, "If you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not going to tell you -- you should know!" The poor schlubs aren't mind readers.
I think the guy -- and the relationship, if it is important (and isn't abusive) -- deserves at least one shot at counseling before calling it quits. If nothing else, at least the guy gets to find out why she is mad at him.
Regards,
Shaz
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Shellon
Women are crock pots
Men are microwaves
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johniam
quote: Love is never wasted, I believe. It'll come back to you, in bushels. Believe it.
But I want it to come back in 50 gallon drums!
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George Aar
Shaz,
Re:"Yes, we women do tend to "drop hints," when what we should be doing is making it plain as day what is on our minds. We say things like, "If you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not going to tell you -- you should know!" The poor schlubs aren't mind readers."
Thank you for that. Indeed, I'm sure there are bunches of women who are quite convinced that they've been over every detail of what they perceive as problems in their marriages. Problem is, their husbands don't know any of it.
I guess women spend a lot of time pondering things like, "Why did she that?" "Why did he mean by THAT?"
"How come she wore THAT sweater?" and other excursions into the world of Freudian motivations and hidden meanings. Men do not. If we're hungry, we say so. Tired? ditto Horny? We make our desires known (generally in plain english). And we generally don't spend ANY time trying to decern the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) hint.
So if you're absolutely positive that he knows exactly how you feel, TELL HIM ANYWAY. GAWD, why do we have to play the farking game, geezus...
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sharon
I was with my first husband for 16 years. we grew up together, he was my best friend and my brother (which is not a good quality for a husband). When I stood before G-d and Elvis (another story,another time) I was convinced I was going to stay married till the day I died, but as Meatloaf so wonderfully phrased it:
"I was praying for the end of time to hurry up and arrive cause if I had to spend another minute with him, I didn't think that I could really survive"
So all the little things that people who are in love do for each other, the things that make a marriage work we didn't do. That was no way to live not for me and not for my ex-husband, at that point I was a lousy wife, I didn't want to cook for him because then I would have to eat with him and I didn't want to spend that much time with him. I hated going out with him I just didn't want to be around him.
So I left. Would it have been better for my boys if I had stayed with their father? I don't think so, because being a lousy wife I also wasn't the best mother.
I have remarried and it is what marriage is supposed to be, not a "Harlequin Romance" novel, but 2 people who not only love each other but actually LIKE each other. Yes, Jeffrey and I fight, but the kids see two adults disagree and come to some type of resolution. instead of Mommy slamming doors and Dad cursing and leaving.
I do not regret my 1st marriage, I have 2 wonderful boys and I kept all of my in-laws, and David (1st husband) helped make me the person I am today. David agrees we are better parents and partners because of what we went through.
I do have to admit my divorce is uncommon, my ex-husband works with Jeffrey and me, and we spend a great deal of time together, (I often comment it's as if we never got divorced, I see David everyday, I still balance his check book, we still fight about his girlfriends and we still don't have sex).
When we split up, David and I (after the screaming was over) sat down and remembered that at one time we were friends and with some work maybe we could be that again. I am happy to say that David is once again someone who I am proud to say is my friend, someone I love like a brother.
I love being married now, I love being with my Jeffrey and I thank G-d everyday that I had the gumption to divorce David, and to allow myself the opportunity to be happy.
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johniam
It seems to me that in any Christian marriage ceremony a scripture is read that says God actually joins the 2 together. To be honest, I don't know exactly what that means, but I believe it means SOMETHING.
I DON'T think it means that the couple no longer has to work at doing the 'little things' because "God'll fix everything now". I also DON'T think it means that a black cloud will follow us around for the rest of our lives if we divorce.
But I DO think it means that GOD is involved in our lives in a way He wasn't before, therefore, before any 3rd parties become involved in a dispute, God should be considered/consulted/prayed to etc. Who knows? It just might help the situation.
Nothing that people do is ever going to be fool proof. This applies to the other thread, too. IF God really does join the 2 together, then that would be preferred above shacking up, if the couple is really serious about the relationship. Otherwise, it's just another form of gambling.
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