I finished reading this book during the Christmas break, it was emotional, but I gotta tell ya..... I only cried in one part. And I cry in commercials!
During the whole time I am reading this, I kept saying "how the hell does he remember all these details?"
I mean, I have enough problems remembering what I ate yesterday for dinner, and I have NEVER done drugs! Let alone, how "I" am feeling at every given moment, how someone is "looking" to me, what the sunshine is doing at the moment. I mean, it really read more like a novel than a memoir.
I kept waiting for the sentence" i am keeping a journal during this time" or something....
the only thing he says is that he has "a good memory".
well, I guess smoking dope and snorting EVERYTHING doesn't destroy brain cells. HMMMMNN???
I am pretty sure he "embellished" a lot of the story. How could he not? The details alone are more than anyone in his sick shape could remember.
I did enjoy the book, however, if you can call reading about vomit and bile and suicidal thoughts, "joyful".
But, it was intriging, and it did give me sort of "empathy" towards anyone with addictions. Only positive for me in the sense that in The Way I was so NONSYMPATHETIC towards anyone with these problems.
So for once, i saw the "other side" and how so many people have to deal with bad things that I never dealt with myself. (abuse, sexual, bad parents/etc..)
So I hope that Frey isn't "conning" everyone with this book. But, I will NEVER underestimate what bad things people are capable of doing anymore.
Well I'll be interested to see how this turns out. Its interesting that The Smoking Gun started looking more into this only after they were attempting to secure a mugshot of Mr. Frey (which they did) though couldn't reconcile Frey's stated details about his criminal record with those actuallly available to the public. As their website states, they can't come up with the details on record to support his claims associated with his controversial arrests. Interviews with a high school classmate don't at all support Frey's contention that he was some type of juvenille delinquent. Also interesting is that Frey attempted to publish an earlier version of his book as a work of fiction (!) and only later was it re-edited to give the "real" details.
Another interesting thing about this book is the fact that Oprah has given it her stamp of approval and has had this guy on her show which is usually a guarantee that he will make many more millions (he is already quite wealthy from books sales and has movie rights activity in progress. They might adopt a "who cares" approach and claim that it
"still makes an important point" but who knows. People write books all the time and many more do it for no other reason to make as much money as possible. I Frey comes out with his side of the story. Right now he had been calling it "bull&$*#"
Thanks so much, Diazbro! My mother was reading this at Christmas because her "book club" frequently reads Oprah-endorsed books. She was totally fascinated by the dude. I hate to be the one to burst her bubble, but I sent her the link.
How'd he even think for a minute that he would get away with so much fabrication? I suppose he was smarter than I am since he DID get away with it.
diazbro, I read the entire article with interest (and amusement). I haven't read the book, not being much of a fan of Oprah's book selections, but I've seen it on the bookstore shelves, and even read the dust jacket. Didn't interest me, but I would guess that Frey has more than a few defenders, since he seems to be writing in a genre called "creative non-fiction," (here's a definition for it) which has (almost) become mainstream. Creative non-fiction is now taught side-by-side with poetry and fiction (and even journalism) in most creative writing courses, although it's not yet been clearly defined. I did a quick google search, and I can see that even instructors are struggling with how to define it, even as they teach it. One site offers a definition for it, but when it gives the guidelines for how to write creative non-fiction, what it is describing is historical fiction, a different genre. No one really knows what it is, but many are writing in that genre. It used to be that you'd read a disclaimer ("based on a true story") if you read a book that hovered somewhere between fact and fiction, but not so much anymore.
I don't know if you know or remember or even followed the controversy over Reagan's biography, when his official biographer created a character who was woven throughout the book, even recounting word-for-word conversations that Reagan supposedly had with his phantom friend over a period of decades. Also, Frank McCourt was questioned about his autobiography after recounting in vivid (and moving) detail his life as a toddler, a time of life most of us can't remember, and it's dubious that he remembered it, but his memoir (novel?) earned him millions, and he's still pumping out sequels. The trend now is to move away from a factual recounting into a "truthful" one, meaning that if the protagonist is believable, and the events believable, it is close enough to true to pass as non-fiction. Since Frey's "memoir" was rejected 17 times as a novel, I would guess that he isn't as skilled as a fiction writer as he is as a journalist, but his life was too boring to garner much interest, so he embellished it. Anymore, it seems that as long as your writing is loosely based on fact, and captures some larger "truth," it's still considered non-fiction. That's the trend these days.
I hope you post updates on this story. I'm a little curious how it will turn out. My guess is that Oprah's guests will defend it as a legitimate literary form.
I'm curious, where do you draw the line between fact and fiction? When you think about it, it isn't so easy to define.
yeah - i got the book as a gift for christmas - i kind of lost interest (yawn) after about 30 pages. maybe i'll give it another go - as you've piqued my interest again with all this controversy.
Didn't interest me, but I would guess that Frey has more than a few defenders, since he seems to be writing in a genre called "creative non-fiction," (here's a definition for it) which has (almost) become mainstream. Creative non-fiction is now taught side-by-side with poetry and fiction (and even journalism) in most creative writing courses, although it's not yet been clearly defined.
One hopes that practitioners of "Creative non-fiction" would at least include a disclaimer that warned the reader that not everything is entirely true. I recall reading Jim Carrol's "Forced Entries" (his followup to the Basketball Diaries") wherein he does this very thing.
Essentially he warns the reader that not all characters are real nor is the sequence of events necessarily chronologically true but he felt he needed to do these things to make the book flow better and represent a coherent work. In any case he included the discliamer so people reading the book had the benefit of this information prior to reading it. Frey's book (at least as far as I can tell) has no such discliamer and one is supposed to have the impression that everything happened exactly as he recounted it.
I think that lots of people are eager to be famous and be recognized as some type of expert. Obviously the money that comes with it is nice too. One can see this in the various "blogs" out there where people are attempting to get known for writing on various topics in hopes that someone will "discover them". And since there is a lot of competition out there (Frey's book was rejected 17 times before publication) people will do whatever they have to to get the book out there even if it requires massive embellishment of the material.
In my view the best written books on addiction are of the journal variety where people log entries over time. This too can obviously be faked but its a more plausible scenario for someone who is trying to get clean. As has been mentioned, Frey's accounts (I read some excerpts over at Amazon) are amazingly detailed and so vivid that one would think he has some monster photographic memory - and all this while he was in the haze of alcoholism and drugs. That would be quite a feat for him to remember all those details.
Bliss said: So for once, i saw the "other side" and how so many people have to deal with bad things that I never dealt with myself. (abuse, sexual, bad parents/etc..)
Bliss I had to deal with ex member of my world who is abusive, an alcoholic and drug addict. Addicts are always liars ..... Like you, I also felt a certain amount of sympathy for this man after reading the book. This surprised me even. I never thought I would feel sympathy for anyone in that category, not because of TWI but because of the personal pain and suffering it caused me and those close to me.
Laleo ...... excellent putting up the defination of "creative non-fiction" He tried to publish it other ways and was unable thus had to change his story and the genre under which he published it.
I have read the book. It was part of my book reading club from a town library in which I belong to. Had it not been in the book club I never would have picked it on my own. I purchased the book and donated it back to the library.
I have read all 6 pages of information from the site also.
I still look at addicts as addicts and the one addiction he never claimed to be cured of was lying ....... he said he was cured of alcohol and drugs and no longer had to lie about that and it felt great that he did not have to cover for himself anymore ....... I am paraphrasing here. But he never did say he was cured of lying. Lying can be an addiction. But is it lying in his book? or is it just creative writing? he is probably covered under "creative non-fiction"
The only thing that I really thought great about this book personally was the fact that he believed that alcohol/drug addiction wasn't a disease but a weakness. The addicted person I once knew had admitted this to me after many AA, NA and inpatient facilities had told him he had a disease. He knew he made his choice time after time he knew it wasn't a disease. He knew the choice wrong but he liked the feel it gave him. He knew what it would do to him when he used and he didn't care, he was selfish.
Disease is something you can't do anything to prevent ... such as when I had cancer a few years ago. It was something I had no control over.
People do have control over what they put into themselves .......... alcohol ..... cocaine ...... heroin .... speed .... marijuana ......... all choices .......... it all started with a choice. Its something people like and continue on doing because they like it. It is something I feel one brings upon themselves, just my personal opinion.
Frey, well he made a ton of money ........... he got what he wanted ........ clean and sober .......... and it appears he lied in his story yet creative non-fiction allows a loop hole for just that. If his book helped someone out of their addiction then thats great.
I wish that none of this addiction stuff in life existed but that fact is it does.
Digi, I didn't know you had had cancer. I'm sorry to hear it. I remember that after you stopped posting, many were asking about you, but I don't recall anyone posting about your health. I hope things are going well for you now. I can't imagine what you've been through. I had to have a biopsy about a year ago (which turned out fine), but I kept postponing it (for months) until I felt I was ready to accept the results, whatever they were. It was a journey I didn't want to take. I'm glad you made it to the other side.
Yeah, I caught Frey's interview with Larry King tonight, and he said pretty much what I expected him to say -- that the theme of his book is what is true, and the "facts" are there to support the theme (this used to be called "fiction," although, in fairness, it's really only a matter of degree). Funny, but he compared himself to Faulkner and Hemingway and Kerouac, who all wrote memoirs with embellished facts. Except they all sold theirs as novels, and, even so, I doubt his is as brilliant. But I could be wrong. To listen to the testimonials, he's written a recovery bible for addicts, and many are finding their way through his story.
IMO, the only way this will turn into a debate that reverses the current literary trends is if the readers get angry enough to object loudly. I don't know that they will, if the story makes them feel good.
IMO, the only way this will turn into a debate that reverses the current literary trends is if the readers get angry enough to object loudly. I don't know that they will, if the story makes them feel good.
I agree, Laleo. It's wrong, but it's a wrong that most likely won't be corrected given the steep decline in morals this country, heck THE WORLD, has been experiencing.
I do have to give the dude props, though. I've talked to at least ten people personally who have been moved and motivated to make changes in their lifestyle because of having read the book. I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure what has compelled them to turn things around, but it was pretty powerful to them.
The larger appeal of his book appers to be among the general public who don't necessarily have a substance abuse problems.
They seemed to be drawn into the story which , as far as I can tell, reads like a train wreck at times. They just have to look !
Having looked into this a lot more since the news story, I've talked with many people with significant addiction history who have doubted the authenticity of Frey's story all along and not as a johnny-come-latelys to the scene. I've been able to read more excerpts of this book and it seems to me that this guy is attempting to represent himself as an addict of olympian proportions as if he was type of mega-flamboyant, in your face abuser who regularly challenged society and police in spectacular and dramatic fashion.
Of course The Smoking Gun's take on this is that they can't find anyone who will support Frey's more boisterous claims and the evidence they did find show his arrests were of a fairy routine nature. In one case he was quickly bailed out because he had a case of chicken pox and the police contacted his parents to expedite the process. Wow. What a total bada$$ this guy was ! Of course he doesn't magnify this aspect of his illustrious criminal career. Even more odd are Frey's allegations of no relapses and no reliance upon recovery and support mechanisms that are common to the rehab process. Especially for someone who was so deeply and heavily immeresed (or claimed to be) in the substance abuse lifestyle. I suppose that there are always exceptions and perhaps Frey is so much stronger than the rest of the population which suffers with addiction. He could walk away from it with sheer force of will and put together intensely detailed passages of events long past hat even those with unimpaired memories would find difficult to locate in their memories. But again ,maybe he wants us to believe that he is the statistical exception but... I doubt it.. I mean Frey is now using the "sure I did it but so have other famous authors" whereas just three days ago he vehemently denied any and all embellishemnt or fabrication of any type. So even within a matter of days he has already backtracked on his original denial.
I don't think this thing is over just yet. I think you will see a quiet disassociation between Oprah and this guy iniatiated primarily from her side. In any case I don't think that anyone likes a poser especially someone who claims to have "been there". Its an insult to people who have actually "been there" and know what its really like. Right now he doesn't want any of this to jeopardize his movie development deal
or his screenwriting work opportunitues so I'm sure he will say and do whatver his managers are telling him to do.
Laleo I remember when you came on the scene around these forums .... seems like ages ago. There was a thread in the original GSpot Cafe about my cancer and many here prayed for me. Templelady kept the thread of course she posted as Maure back in those days. I came back after my extended hospital stay but it was hard ....... and I just didn't have the energy to keep up with this place if you know what I mean. I went through bouts of depression on and off for awhile took a long time to heal. But am clean 5 years this past Dec. Thank God. I am glad you have turned out ok with your tests.
Frey does seem to glorify his work towards the non addicts ....... I never thought I would ever feel sorry for an addict but he made me feel that way in his writing. He will come out of this ok in my opinion .. we will watch and see.
Future hardcover and paperback editions of James Frey's disputed memoir of addiction, "A Million Little Pieces," will include a brief author's note that refers to the content of the book, his publisher said Thursday.
Doubleday spokeswoman Alison Rich declined to offer details about the note or to comment on why it was being added. She would not say if the note was an acknowledgment often found in memoirs — but not in "A Million Little Pieces" — that names and events had been altered.
Frey does seem to glorify his work towards the non addicts ....... I never thought I would ever feel sorry for an addict but he made me feel that way in his writing. He will come out of this ok in my opinion .. we will watch and see.
Digi
Well keep in mind that his book was calculated and embellished to get that sympathy. The reality was probably not even close to the highly sensationalized accounts he put forth in the book. He had attempted to publish an earlier version of the book as fiction and its not at all clear what the differences are between the fiction vs. non-fiction versions. My point is that because he had originally approached the book as being "creative" then its for sure he developed his role deliberately to provoke responses from the reader. And that was a higher priority than stating the truth which was probaby far less exciting than the fabricated stories placed in the book. So while the story might be entertaining and even exhilirating keep the above in mind. You are reading a calculated, manufactured story that is aimed at selling books as opposed to documenting the life of an addict in a truer , albeit more boring, form.
Believe me I have kept it in mind ...... like I said earlier it surprised me that I had any sympathy for him .... paraphrasing here. But, I should have said it was for the duration of the reading the book itself because after I gave the book to the library and our discussion was over ..... I never really thought about it again until this thread. When its all said and done he is just another addict who hurt those around him. Who lied and used people to get what he wanted.
He sold his books, he's clean ? maybe ........ truth? I doubt it ....... he is probably covered under creative fiction as long as he doesn't open his mouth, but then again he is a bit of a show off so we will see ...... maybe .... ...
When its all said and done he is just another addict who hurt those around him. Who lied and used people to get what he wanted.
Digi
Yea. I think you nailed it pretty well with your statement there.
I do in fact believe that the guy did have substance problems so I don't think he made up that aspect of it. He just wanted to gamlorize it too much and be some kind of outlaw, romantic figure. Anyway addicts cause so much pain to other people and a standard part of the rehabilitation process requires the addict to acknowledge that. Most do but some don't. And these types , even if they are "clean" from their drug of choice, still carry around an attitude that is massively self-serving. Perhaps Frey is one such example.
Digi, Did I post on that thread? I'm sure I would have if I had seen it. And, yes, I know what you mean about not always feeling up to jumping into the fray. Has it been five years? I had a friend who was diagnosed with cancer shortly before my sister was. They both withdrew, which made it hard on the rest of us. I was never sure what to say, or whether to say anything at all. With my friend, I kept thinking that she would get in touch with me when she was ready, but she died before that happened. With my sister, once she recovered, she was back to being open and communicative. I can completely relate, in that I tend to turn inward when I'm under pressure, too -- it's how I process things. But, even so, it's not easy to watch someone close to you go through a major illness, especially when you're at a loss as far as what to do or say. Anyway, like I said, I'm glad you're well and back with us.
diazbro, from what I'm hearing and reading about this, I'm inclined to agree with you. Frey wrote a novel, and it should be marketed as such. I mean, this is beyond embellishment. It's complete fabrication. Spending three hours uneventful hours at the police station while waiting for a friend to pick him up is a far cry from being behind bars shackled to Porkchop for three months while reading him Chaucer.
I heard a re-run of a radio interview today with the producer of a documentary about Grizzly bears, called Grizzly Man. Have you seen it? I haven't. Sounded interesting, though. Evidently it got great reviews, and it's about a couple who were killed by grizzlies after spending over a decade with them in the Alaska wilderness, and devoting themselves to their preservation. Anyway, the producer himself said that he fabricated much of it. He used authentic video footage that the couple had shot before their deaths, but, from what he said, he took great liberties with the information. He said his goal was to tell the "ecstatic truth" of the story, rather than the factual one, so he disregarded fact in pursuit of this "truth." I wonder what makes it a documentary then.
Anyway, in Frey's case, if the "essential" or "ecstatic" or whatever kind of truth he is illustrating is that an addict can be lifted out of his addiction and his criminality through rehab, but the author himself hasn't taken that journey, or at least not in the way he has depicted it, then, yes, I think there is some misrepresentation going on. On the other hand, I can relate to the appeal of "creative non-fiction" -- using elements of fiction to illustrate a point. In that way, a writer can use the weather, the plot, the scenery, the sequence of events to make his point with a lot more style than just a factual recounting. Unfortunately, if you're writing non-fiction, sometimes the weather, the plot, the scenery, and the events don't cooperate with the theme of your story, so I can fully understand altering a few things to make for a more riveting read.
I agree, Laleo. It's wrong, but it's a wrong that most likely won't be corrected given the steep decline in morals this country, heck THE WORLD, has been experiencing.
I do have to give the dude props, though. I've talked to at least ten people personally who have been moved and motivated to make changes in their lifestyle because of having read the book. I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure what has compelled them to turn things around, but it was pretty powerful to them.
Belle, I'm not sure if it's a "steep decline in morals" (though maybe it is) or just a more competitive literary environment. For a book to get attention, it has to stand out somehow. Listening to yet another interview (I'm surprised this story is so big), his publisher was saying that fiction is more difficult to sell. The market right now is evidently more toward memoir, and she felt it had enough of the elements of a memoir to be sold as one. I don't know. Is it a question of morals? Maybe with this guy (Frey) it is because it sounds like he's a bit of a opportunist, and a lying one at that, yet there was no way he could have foreseen the amount of interest his book would garner, especially since it was his first one published. I don't know if it's more the responsibility of the writer or the publisher to categorize the work into one genre or another. After listening to the interview, I had the impression that it was the publisher who thought there would be a better market for the book if it was sold as non-fiction.
Do those ten people you spoke with now feel betrayed? Or is there a message in the book that transcends the facts of his life?
Laleo ...... Maure would call the hospital or my hubby would print out the thread from GScafe back in those days and it blessed me much. We have a hard copy in storage of it .. Of course much of my life is in storages seeing as we are building these days. Yes it has been 5 years since that particular event amazing, but it took a good 2-3 years to heal from it.
Regarding the coupe in Alaska and that documentary I find it far more interesting than Frey. Seeing as I am an Alaskan and that was no oridinary couple who were out for a picnic. They were well established in the ways of the wilderness here and they didn't even get the opportunity to reach for there gun. That particular couple had dinner on the side of the river cleaned up everything .... got back in there Kayak and went on down river a couple of miles to make camp. Did not even sleep where the ate. Very sad story.
Frey on the other hand is getting far more attention than I see necessary ........ take it for what it is or isn't and let it go. How it affects ones life individually is really up to the indivdual. I dont see where all this attention is even going or why it is going in reference to Frey.
Digi: As far as the attention on Frey, I think what it might accomplish is to open up a debate about what is "truth," or, maybe less ambitious, what are the boundaries for "truth" in the literary realm? When fact conflicts with theme, and you're writing non-fiction, where do you draw the line, and what do you owe your readers? It may or may not have implications outside of the book-publishing world, depending on how we've collectively defined honesty, and how much we value it.
On one of those news blurbs, it was reported that Oprah's next book selection is Elie Wiesel's narrative Night. If you haven't read it, I think you'll really enjoy this one. As far as the novel versus memoir debate goes, I don't know that it will add to that, except that it's another book which used to be a novel but is now a memoir. After reading it years ago, I went to hear him speak. About all I remember of it is that he is very, very soft-spoken, and has enough of an accent to make him difficult to understand. I can't fault him for his goals, though. Lofty, for sure, but who can fault someone whose purpose for living is to eradicate violence and hatred in all of its many forms?
At any rate, this might be a book club selection worth reading, if you haven't read it already.
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bliss
I finished reading this book during the Christmas break, it was emotional, but I gotta tell ya..... I only cried in one part. And I cry in commercials!
During the whole time I am reading this, I kept saying "how the hell does he remember all these details?"
I mean, I have enough problems remembering what I ate yesterday for dinner, and I have NEVER done drugs! Let alone, how "I" am feeling at every given moment, how someone is "looking" to me, what the sunshine is doing at the moment. I mean, it really read more like a novel than a memoir.
I kept waiting for the sentence" i am keeping a journal during this time" or something....
the only thing he says is that he has "a good memory".
well, I guess smoking dope and snorting EVERYTHING doesn't destroy brain cells. HMMMMNN???
I am pretty sure he "embellished" a lot of the story. How could he not? The details alone are more than anyone in his sick shape could remember.
I did enjoy the book, however, if you can call reading about vomit and bile and suicidal thoughts, "joyful".
But, it was intriging, and it did give me sort of "empathy" towards anyone with addictions. Only positive for me in the sense that in The Way I was so NONSYMPATHETIC towards anyone with these problems.
So for once, i saw the "other side" and how so many people have to deal with bad things that I never dealt with myself. (abuse, sexual, bad parents/etc..)
So I hope that Frey isn't "conning" everyone with this book. But, I will NEVER underestimate what bad things people are capable of doing anymore.
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dmiller
Wow -- there was six pages there about the guy.
I read the first one.
According to some of what he said (page one), he's another *grifter*.
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diazbro
Well I'll be interested to see how this turns out. Its interesting that The Smoking Gun started looking more into this only after they were attempting to secure a mugshot of Mr. Frey (which they did) though couldn't reconcile Frey's stated details about his criminal record with those actuallly available to the public. As their website states, they can't come up with the details on record to support his claims associated with his controversial arrests. Interviews with a high school classmate don't at all support Frey's contention that he was some type of juvenille delinquent. Also interesting is that Frey attempted to publish an earlier version of his book as a work of fiction (!) and only later was it re-edited to give the "real" details.
Another interesting thing about this book is the fact that Oprah has given it her stamp of approval and has had this guy on her show which is usually a guarantee that he will make many more millions (he is already quite wealthy from books sales and has movie rights activity in progress. They might adopt a "who cares" approach and claim that it
"still makes an important point" but who knows. People write books all the time and many more do it for no other reason to make as much money as possible. I Frey comes out with his side of the story. Right now he had been calling it "bull&$*#"
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Belle
Thanks so much, Diazbro! My mother was reading this at Christmas because her "book club" frequently reads Oprah-endorsed books. She was totally fascinated by the dude. I hate to be the one to burst her bubble, but I sent her the link.
How'd he even think for a minute that he would get away with so much fabrication? I suppose he was smarter than I am since he DID get away with it.
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laleo
diazbro, I read the entire article with interest (and amusement). I haven't read the book, not being much of a fan of Oprah's book selections, but I've seen it on the bookstore shelves, and even read the dust jacket. Didn't interest me, but I would guess that Frey has more than a few defenders, since he seems to be writing in a genre called "creative non-fiction," (here's a definition for it) which has (almost) become mainstream. Creative non-fiction is now taught side-by-side with poetry and fiction (and even journalism) in most creative writing courses, although it's not yet been clearly defined. I did a quick google search, and I can see that even instructors are struggling with how to define it, even as they teach it. One site offers a definition for it, but when it gives the guidelines for how to write creative non-fiction, what it is describing is historical fiction, a different genre. No one really knows what it is, but many are writing in that genre. It used to be that you'd read a disclaimer ("based on a true story") if you read a book that hovered somewhere between fact and fiction, but not so much anymore.
I don't know if you know or remember or even followed the controversy over Reagan's biography, when his official biographer created a character who was woven throughout the book, even recounting word-for-word conversations that Reagan supposedly had with his phantom friend over a period of decades. Also, Frank McCourt was questioned about his autobiography after recounting in vivid (and moving) detail his life as a toddler, a time of life most of us can't remember, and it's dubious that he remembered it, but his memoir (novel?) earned him millions, and he's still pumping out sequels. The trend now is to move away from a factual recounting into a "truthful" one, meaning that if the protagonist is believable, and the events believable, it is close enough to true to pass as non-fiction. Since Frey's "memoir" was rejected 17 times as a novel, I would guess that he isn't as skilled as a fiction writer as he is as a journalist, but his life was too boring to garner much interest, so he embellished it. Anymore, it seems that as long as your writing is loosely based on fact, and captures some larger "truth," it's still considered non-fiction. That's the trend these days.
I hope you post updates on this story. I'm a little curious how it will turn out. My guess is that Oprah's guests will defend it as a legitimate literary form.
I'm curious, where do you draw the line between fact and fiction? When you think about it, it isn't so easy to define.
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nellie
yeah - i got the book as a gift for christmas - i kind of lost interest (yawn) after about 30 pages. maybe i'll give it another go - as you've piqued my interest again with all this controversy.
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diazbro
One hopes that practitioners of "Creative non-fiction" would at least include a disclaimer that warned the reader that not everything is entirely true. I recall reading Jim Carrol's "Forced Entries" (his followup to the Basketball Diaries") wherein he does this very thing.
Essentially he warns the reader that not all characters are real nor is the sequence of events necessarily chronologically true but he felt he needed to do these things to make the book flow better and represent a coherent work. In any case he included the discliamer so people reading the book had the benefit of this information prior to reading it. Frey's book (at least as far as I can tell) has no such discliamer and one is supposed to have the impression that everything happened exactly as he recounted it.
I think that lots of people are eager to be famous and be recognized as some type of expert. Obviously the money that comes with it is nice too. One can see this in the various "blogs" out there where people are attempting to get known for writing on various topics in hopes that someone will "discover them". And since there is a lot of competition out there (Frey's book was rejected 17 times before publication) people will do whatever they have to to get the book out there even if it requires massive embellishment of the material.
In my view the best written books on addiction are of the journal variety where people log entries over time. This too can obviously be faked but its a more plausible scenario for someone who is trying to get clean. As has been mentioned, Frey's accounts (I read some excerpts over at Amazon) are amazingly detailed and so vivid that one would think he has some monster photographic memory - and all this while he was in the haze of alcoholism and drugs. That would be quite a feat for him to remember all those details.
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moony3424
The story was on the NBC news tonight. Oprah has no comment and he says everything he wrote about is true.
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Digitalis
Bliss said: So for once, i saw the "other side" and how so many people have to deal with bad things that I never dealt with myself. (abuse, sexual, bad parents/etc..)
Bliss I had to deal with ex member of my world who is abusive, an alcoholic and drug addict. Addicts are always liars ..... Like you, I also felt a certain amount of sympathy for this man after reading the book. This surprised me even. I never thought I would feel sympathy for anyone in that category, not because of TWI but because of the personal pain and suffering it caused me and those close to me.
Laleo ...... excellent putting up the defination of "creative non-fiction" He tried to publish it other ways and was unable thus had to change his story and the genre under which he published it.
I have read the book. It was part of my book reading club from a town library in which I belong to. Had it not been in the book club I never would have picked it on my own. I purchased the book and donated it back to the library.
I have read all 6 pages of information from the site also.
I still look at addicts as addicts and the one addiction he never claimed to be cured of was lying ....... he said he was cured of alcohol and drugs and no longer had to lie about that and it felt great that he did not have to cover for himself anymore ....... I am paraphrasing here. But he never did say he was cured of lying. Lying can be an addiction. But is it lying in his book? or is it just creative writing? he is probably covered under "creative non-fiction"
The only thing that I really thought great about this book personally was the fact that he believed that alcohol/drug addiction wasn't a disease but a weakness. The addicted person I once knew had admitted this to me after many AA, NA and inpatient facilities had told him he had a disease. He knew he made his choice time after time he knew it wasn't a disease. He knew the choice wrong but he liked the feel it gave him. He knew what it would do to him when he used and he didn't care, he was selfish.
Disease is something you can't do anything to prevent ... such as when I had cancer a few years ago. It was something I had no control over.
People do have control over what they put into themselves .......... alcohol ..... cocaine ...... heroin .... speed .... marijuana ......... all choices .......... it all started with a choice. Its something people like and continue on doing because they like it. It is something I feel one brings upon themselves, just my personal opinion.
Frey, well he made a ton of money ........... he got what he wanted ........ clean and sober .......... and it appears he lied in his story yet creative non-fiction allows a loop hole for just that. If his book helped someone out of their addiction then thats great.
I wish that none of this addiction stuff in life existed but that fact is it does.
Digi
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laleo
Digi, I didn't know you had had cancer. I'm sorry to hear it. I remember that after you stopped posting, many were asking about you, but I don't recall anyone posting about your health. I hope things are going well for you now. I can't imagine what you've been through. I had to have a biopsy about a year ago (which turned out fine), but I kept postponing it (for months) until I felt I was ready to accept the results, whatever they were. It was a journey I didn't want to take. I'm glad you made it to the other side.
Yeah, I caught Frey's interview with Larry King tonight, and he said pretty much what I expected him to say -- that the theme of his book is what is true, and the "facts" are there to support the theme (this used to be called "fiction," although, in fairness, it's really only a matter of degree). Funny, but he compared himself to Faulkner and Hemingway and Kerouac, who all wrote memoirs with embellished facts. Except they all sold theirs as novels, and, even so, I doubt his is as brilliant. But I could be wrong. To listen to the testimonials, he's written a recovery bible for addicts, and many are finding their way through his story.
IMO, the only way this will turn into a debate that reverses the current literary trends is if the readers get angry enough to object loudly. I don't know that they will, if the story makes them feel good.
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Belle
I agree, Laleo. It's wrong, but it's a wrong that most likely won't be corrected given the steep decline in morals this country, heck THE WORLD, has been experiencing.
I do have to give the dude props, though. I've talked to at least ten people personally who have been moved and motivated to make changes in their lifestyle because of having read the book. I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure what has compelled them to turn things around, but it was pretty powerful to them.
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diazbro
The larger appeal of his book appers to be among the general public who don't necessarily have a substance abuse problems.
They seemed to be drawn into the story which , as far as I can tell, reads like a train wreck at times. They just have to look !
Having looked into this a lot more since the news story, I've talked with many people with significant addiction history who have doubted the authenticity of Frey's story all along and not as a johnny-come-latelys to the scene. I've been able to read more excerpts of this book and it seems to me that this guy is attempting to represent himself as an addict of olympian proportions as if he was type of mega-flamboyant, in your face abuser who regularly challenged society and police in spectacular and dramatic fashion.
Of course The Smoking Gun's take on this is that they can't find anyone who will support Frey's more boisterous claims and the evidence they did find show his arrests were of a fairy routine nature. In one case he was quickly bailed out because he had a case of chicken pox and the police contacted his parents to expedite the process. Wow. What a total bada$$ this guy was ! Of course he doesn't magnify this aspect of his illustrious criminal career. Even more odd are Frey's allegations of no relapses and no reliance upon recovery and support mechanisms that are common to the rehab process. Especially for someone who was so deeply and heavily immeresed (or claimed to be) in the substance abuse lifestyle. I suppose that there are always exceptions and perhaps Frey is so much stronger than the rest of the population which suffers with addiction. He could walk away from it with sheer force of will and put together intensely detailed passages of events long past hat even those with unimpaired memories would find difficult to locate in their memories. But again ,maybe he wants us to believe that he is the statistical exception but... I doubt it.. I mean Frey is now using the "sure I did it but so have other famous authors" whereas just three days ago he vehemently denied any and all embellishemnt or fabrication of any type. So even within a matter of days he has already backtracked on his original denial.
I don't think this thing is over just yet. I think you will see a quiet disassociation between Oprah and this guy iniatiated primarily from her side. In any case I don't think that anyone likes a poser especially someone who claims to have "been there". Its an insult to people who have actually "been there" and know what its really like. Right now he doesn't want any of this to jeopardize his movie development deal
or his screenwriting work opportunitues so I'm sure he will say and do whatver his managers are telling him to do.
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Digitalis
Laleo I remember when you came on the scene around these forums .... seems like ages ago. There was a thread in the original GSpot Cafe about my cancer and many here prayed for me. Templelady kept the thread of course she posted as Maure back in those days. I came back after my extended hospital stay but it was hard ....... and I just didn't have the energy to keep up with this place if you know what I mean. I went through bouts of depression on and off for awhile took a long time to heal. But am clean 5 years this past Dec. Thank God. I am glad you have turned out ok with your tests.
Frey does seem to glorify his work towards the non addicts ....... I never thought I would ever feel sorry for an addict but he made me feel that way in his writing. He will come out of this ok in my opinion .. we will watch and see.
Digi
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moony3424
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diazbro
Well keep in mind that his book was calculated and embellished to get that sympathy. The reality was probably not even close to the highly sensationalized accounts he put forth in the book. He had attempted to publish an earlier version of the book as fiction and its not at all clear what the differences are between the fiction vs. non-fiction versions. My point is that because he had originally approached the book as being "creative" then its for sure he developed his role deliberately to provoke responses from the reader. And that was a higher priority than stating the truth which was probaby far less exciting than the fabricated stories placed in the book. So while the story might be entertaining and even exhilirating keep the above in mind. You are reading a calculated, manufactured story that is aimed at selling books as opposed to documenting the life of an addict in a truer , albeit more boring, form.
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Digitalis
Diazbro ..........
Believe me I have kept it in mind ...... like I said earlier it surprised me that I had any sympathy for him .... paraphrasing here. But, I should have said it was for the duration of the reading the book itself because after I gave the book to the library and our discussion was over ..... I never really thought about it again until this thread. When its all said and done he is just another addict who hurt those around him. Who lied and used people to get what he wanted.
He sold his books, he's clean ? maybe ........ truth? I doubt it ....... he is probably covered under creative fiction as long as he doesn't open his mouth, but then again he is a bit of a show off so we will see ...... maybe .... ...
Digi
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diazbro
Yea. I think you nailed it pretty well with your statement there.
I do in fact believe that the guy did have substance problems so I don't think he made up that aspect of it. He just wanted to gamlorize it too much and be some kind of outlaw, romantic figure. Anyway addicts cause so much pain to other people and a standard part of the rehabilitation process requires the addict to acknowledge that. Most do but some don't. And these types , even if they are "clean" from their drug of choice, still carry around an attitude that is massively self-serving. Perhaps Frey is one such example.
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laleo
Digi, Did I post on that thread? I'm sure I would have if I had seen it. And, yes, I know what you mean about not always feeling up to jumping into the fray. Has it been five years? I had a friend who was diagnosed with cancer shortly before my sister was. They both withdrew, which made it hard on the rest of us. I was never sure what to say, or whether to say anything at all. With my friend, I kept thinking that she would get in touch with me when she was ready, but she died before that happened. With my sister, once she recovered, she was back to being open and communicative. I can completely relate, in that I tend to turn inward when I'm under pressure, too -- it's how I process things. But, even so, it's not easy to watch someone close to you go through a major illness, especially when you're at a loss as far as what to do or say. Anyway, like I said, I'm glad you're well and back with us.
diazbro, from what I'm hearing and reading about this, I'm inclined to agree with you. Frey wrote a novel, and it should be marketed as such. I mean, this is beyond embellishment. It's complete fabrication. Spending three hours uneventful hours at the police station while waiting for a friend to pick him up is a far cry from being behind bars shackled to Porkchop for three months while reading him Chaucer.
I heard a re-run of a radio interview today with the producer of a documentary about Grizzly bears, called Grizzly Man. Have you seen it? I haven't. Sounded interesting, though. Evidently it got great reviews, and it's about a couple who were killed by grizzlies after spending over a decade with them in the Alaska wilderness, and devoting themselves to their preservation. Anyway, the producer himself said that he fabricated much of it. He used authentic video footage that the couple had shot before their deaths, but, from what he said, he took great liberties with the information. He said his goal was to tell the "ecstatic truth" of the story, rather than the factual one, so he disregarded fact in pursuit of this "truth." I wonder what makes it a documentary then.
Anyway, in Frey's case, if the "essential" or "ecstatic" or whatever kind of truth he is illustrating is that an addict can be lifted out of his addiction and his criminality through rehab, but the author himself hasn't taken that journey, or at least not in the way he has depicted it, then, yes, I think there is some misrepresentation going on. On the other hand, I can relate to the appeal of "creative non-fiction" -- using elements of fiction to illustrate a point. In that way, a writer can use the weather, the plot, the scenery, the sequence of events to make his point with a lot more style than just a factual recounting. Unfortunately, if you're writing non-fiction, sometimes the weather, the plot, the scenery, and the events don't cooperate with the theme of your story, so I can fully understand altering a few things to make for a more riveting read.
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laleo
Belle, I'm not sure if it's a "steep decline in morals" (though maybe it is) or just a more competitive literary environment. For a book to get attention, it has to stand out somehow. Listening to yet another interview (I'm surprised this story is so big), his publisher was saying that fiction is more difficult to sell. The market right now is evidently more toward memoir, and she felt it had enough of the elements of a memoir to be sold as one. I don't know. Is it a question of morals? Maybe with this guy (Frey) it is because it sounds like he's a bit of a opportunist, and a lying one at that, yet there was no way he could have foreseen the amount of interest his book would garner, especially since it was his first one published. I don't know if it's more the responsibility of the writer or the publisher to categorize the work into one genre or another. After listening to the interview, I had the impression that it was the publisher who thought there would be a better market for the book if it was sold as non-fiction.
Do those ten people you spoke with now feel betrayed? Or is there a message in the book that transcends the facts of his life?
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Digitalis
Laleo ...... Maure would call the hospital or my hubby would print out the thread from GScafe back in those days and it blessed me much. We have a hard copy in storage of it .. Of course much of my life is in storages seeing as we are building these days. Yes it has been 5 years since that particular event amazing, but it took a good 2-3 years to heal from it.
Regarding the coupe in Alaska and that documentary I find it far more interesting than Frey. Seeing as I am an Alaskan and that was no oridinary couple who were out for a picnic. They were well established in the ways of the wilderness here and they didn't even get the opportunity to reach for there gun. That particular couple had dinner on the side of the river cleaned up everything .... got back in there Kayak and went on down river a couple of miles to make camp. Did not even sleep where the ate. Very sad story.
Frey on the other hand is getting far more attention than I see necessary ........ take it for what it is or isn't and let it go. How it affects ones life individually is really up to the indivdual. I dont see where all this attention is even going or why it is going in reference to Frey.
Digi
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laleo
Digi: As far as the attention on Frey, I think what it might accomplish is to open up a debate about what is "truth," or, maybe less ambitious, what are the boundaries for "truth" in the literary realm? When fact conflicts with theme, and you're writing non-fiction, where do you draw the line, and what do you owe your readers? It may or may not have implications outside of the book-publishing world, depending on how we've collectively defined honesty, and how much we value it.
On one of those news blurbs, it was reported that Oprah's next book selection is Elie Wiesel's narrative Night. If you haven't read it, I think you'll really enjoy this one. As far as the novel versus memoir debate goes, I don't know that it will add to that, except that it's another book which used to be a novel but is now a memoir. After reading it years ago, I went to hear him speak. About all I remember of it is that he is very, very soft-spoken, and has enough of an accent to make him difficult to understand. I can't fault him for his goals, though. Lofty, for sure, but who can fault someone whose purpose for living is to eradicate violence and hatred in all of its many forms?
At any rate, this might be a book club selection worth reading, if you haven't read it already.
I'll look for that documentary.
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diazbro
Oprah now distances herself from the book she once agressively promoted and helped make into a bestseller. (its about time)
See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11030647/
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DaddyHoundog
He is supposed to be on her show TODAY...to splain hisself.................well see
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bliss
WOW~ Frey admits lying and embellishing details.
He is sorry. (cuz he got caught, and caused lots of embarrassment..................)
The parallells are uncanny...............................maybe we should put TWI on OPRAH?
The truth DOES matter!
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