Definitely facinating. And more than a few parallels with TWI in my opinion.
A few years ago Stanford had a different website for the experiment. It wasn't so slick, but I thought it was a much better description. I googled around but couldn't find it.
The other favorite of mine is the Milgram Experiment and the book by Stanley Milgram titled "Obedience to Authority".
i just read the whole thing (didn't watch the video clips though), and it's chilling. my immediate thoughts:
1) i think the researchers need a psychological study made of THEIR intentions. what was the hypothesis? it wasn't stated at the beginning of the slide show. (i think they might've just been sickos in white coats with clipboards!)
2) $15 per day per volunteer?
3) there were not enough controls over the study. would it be sanctioned today?
4) why am i not that surprised at the results?
5) there was not enough data revealed in the slide show to make a valid analysis of the study, and it was a very small sample to be sure.
on a personal note - Freedom is NOT overrated, but largely taken for granted.
Does anyone remember in the early days of the Corps a group of Corps were at LEAD (or whatever it was called then) and VPW had another group of Corps crash the program, rounded all the people up and held them captive and grilled them, didn't let them sleep etc.
At one of the meals VPW said he wanted to see how the leaders would handle it - fight it and try to escape or get quiet, go to God and find out what was really going on.
I though it was just plain weird. I don't know how many lunches and dinners we had to sit around and listen to LCM talk about that! Sheesh!
Shellon, I remember first reading about that on WayDale, I think it was. Shocking!! I suppose that study was more informative and valuable in so many more ways than people ever expected, namely how NOT to do an experiment. Gives pause to the nature vs. nurture argument, too.
I loved my Sociology classes but obviously didn't recognize a lot of the conformity and actions in my own life even after all those classes. I agree with Jim, too, on the TWI parallels. Seems like those who were in power became more demanding and more powerful in their own eyes and exploited that power while we just cowered and took it (well, I did, anyway). :blink:
Edi, I remember reading about that. Didn't they make some people climb into boxes or something like that?
My first year in Ohio Fellow Laborers we had a Saturday class, and some guy from Columbus who was some kind of a salesperson did something very similar to some of the 3rd year fellow laborers. I was so totally traumatized I really can't remember any details, except that after the break the Coordinator, R.A., had to talk to me for quite a while to make me go back in. My wonderful husband was one of the victims, and he has absolutely no memory of it at all, which makes me think he has it blocked from his memory, too.
I remember just crying and crying, in utter terror. And I wasn't even picked to be a victim. I don't think we were ever told why this was happening to some of us. I remember it was very threatening and vile and abusive and that's about all. This would have been in 1975. I remember little flashbacks, like I was wearing white slacks and a light blue shirt. I remember where my husband-to-be was standing in relation to where I was sitting. I just remember being terribly shocked and horrified and wondering what on earth these maniacs were thinking. I nearly left the program, but thank God I didn't, because we ended up getting married.
Is there anyone else "out there" from Ohio Fellow Laborers, 3rd or 4th year, who remembers this? It was a freaking nightmare and was held at a seminar at a hotel or something. We hadn't been there very long (4th year that is).
I can't read the links or anything. It's too awful. But I remember right before this they were talking about the incident with LEAD, and how the only one who boldly and fearlessly withstood and performed the very best was our own dear LCM. I think that was the inspiration for the Fellow Laborers thing.
I read every bit of it. Who did this remind me most of at twi? I have heard what a great person this was when he ran a branch or an area and how most people loved him. Strange what this person must live with today. JAL and M!achel F*rt were the corps cordinators. M!chael F*rt IMHO was the biggest prick. How many tantrums did I see him throw? I can't remember. I do know that when he would be running any kind of meeting you knew there was going to be an awful lot of screaming and belittling of a person or a group. Funny thing I am sure there were times he was nice to us but I can't remember a one.
I have read where he really was a nice person but never to any of us who were under his direction in the corps unless you knew him personally. I guess M!achel F*ort has to lay in the bed he made for himself. I will always consider him trash.
To set the record straight. He never did anything personal to me. Just the way I saw it.
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Jim
Definitely facinating. And more than a few parallels with TWI in my opinion.
A few years ago Stanford had a different website for the experiment. It wasn't so slick, but I thought it was a much better description. I googled around but couldn't find it.
The other favorite of mine is the Milgram Experiment and the book by Stanley Milgram titled "Obedience to Authority".
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Shellon
Oh yeah! The Milgram Experiment; we've discussed that one in psych classes too. Also fascinating.
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nellie
wow shellon,
i just read the whole thing (didn't watch the video clips though), and it's chilling. my immediate thoughts:
1) i think the researchers need a psychological study made of THEIR intentions. what was the hypothesis? it wasn't stated at the beginning of the slide show. (i think they might've just been sickos in white coats with clipboards!)
2) $15 per day per volunteer?
3) there were not enough controls over the study. would it be sanctioned today?
4) why am i not that surprised at the results?
5) there was not enough data revealed in the slide show to make a valid analysis of the study, and it was a very small sample to be sure.
on a personal note - Freedom is NOT overrated, but largely taken for granted.
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Shellon
This experiments is perfect example of why control is needed in the environment and ethics boards involved, etc.
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nellie
oh...
i guess i'm stating the obvious like it's some kind of huge revelation...
well, i agree
tee hee
:blink:
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Shellon
No, what you did was exactly what we hope for in our classes. You read it, thought about it and commented, suggesting further conversation. Dig that!
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Edi
At one of the meals VPW said he wanted to see how the leaders would handle it - fight it and try to escape or get quiet, go to God and find out what was really going on.
I though it was just plain weird. I don't know how many lunches and dinners we had to sit around and listen to LCM talk about that!
Sheesh!
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Belle
Shellon, I remember first reading about that on WayDale, I think it was. Shocking!! I suppose that study was more informative and valuable in so many more ways than people ever expected, namely how NOT to do an experiment. Gives pause to the nature vs. nurture argument, too.
I loved my Sociology classes but obviously didn't recognize a lot of the conformity and actions in my own life even after all those classes. I agree with Jim, too, on the TWI parallels. Seems like those who were in power became more demanding and more powerful in their own eyes and exploited that power while we just cowered and took it (well, I did, anyway). :blink:
Edi, I remember reading about that. Didn't they make some people climb into boxes or something like that?
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Watered Garden
My first year in Ohio Fellow Laborers we had a Saturday class, and some guy from Columbus who was some kind of a salesperson did something very similar to some of the 3rd year fellow laborers. I was so totally traumatized I really can't remember any details, except that after the break the Coordinator, R.A., had to talk to me for quite a while to make me go back in. My wonderful husband was one of the victims, and he has absolutely no memory of it at all, which makes me think he has it blocked from his memory, too.
I remember just crying and crying, in utter terror. And I wasn't even picked to be a victim. I don't think we were ever told why this was happening to some of us. I remember it was very threatening and vile and abusive and that's about all. This would have been in 1975. I remember little flashbacks, like I was wearing white slacks and a light blue shirt. I remember where my husband-to-be was standing in relation to where I was sitting. I just remember being terribly shocked and horrified and wondering what on earth these maniacs were thinking. I nearly left the program, but thank God I didn't, because we ended up getting married.
Is there anyone else "out there" from Ohio Fellow Laborers, 3rd or 4th year, who remembers this? It was a freaking nightmare and was held at a seminar at a hotel or something. We hadn't been there very long (4th year that is).
I can't read the links or anything. It's too awful. But I remember right before this they were talking about the incident with LEAD, and how the only one who boldly and fearlessly withstood and performed the very best was our own dear LCM. I think that was the inspiration for the Fellow Laborers thing.
WG
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justloafing
I read every bit of it. Who did this remind me most of at twi? I have heard what a great person this was when he ran a branch or an area and how most people loved him. Strange what this person must live with today. JAL and M!achel F*rt were the corps cordinators. M!chael F*rt IMHO was the biggest prick. How many tantrums did I see him throw? I can't remember. I do know that when he would be running any kind of meeting you knew there was going to be an awful lot of screaming and belittling of a person or a group. Funny thing I am sure there were times he was nice to us but I can't remember a one.
I have read where he really was a nice person but never to any of us who were under his direction in the corps unless you knew him personally. I guess M!achel F*ort has to lay in the bed he made for himself. I will always consider him trash.
To set the record straight. He never did anything personal to me. Just the way I saw it.
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