I was persusing my journal this morning in light of remembering where I was when getting brave enough to really consider deeply TWI.(I know I a considering deeply when I get out of my head and onto paper.) I came upon the following entry. I realize I make myself vulnerable by posting this. Please remember the context in which it was written...an innie whose life had been TWI for over 2 decades, an innie who had (for the most part) "good" leadership, an innie who wanted TWI to change, and innie who (with spouse) wanted the kids to have the Word. Some may wonder why it took so long to express this stuff in my journaling; but that is a long story. I post this to help DJS think, if DJS is still lurking. DJS I left TWI just within the past few months. BTW, journaling hs changed my life on many levels...
Side note: This entry was written before ever even going to the web and doing a search on TWI. I had heard some of JAL tapes way back in 1986(?) so knew some of the VPW accusations. This entry is May, 03. I did not view GSC until September, 03. I did not exit until October, 05. Also Dr. S is not a TWIer.
"5/09/03: ...I saw Dr. S today...It was good to see him. I discussed my contemplations regarding TWI. I had a hard time putting what I have been feeling into words. Somehow I got some of it out. He stated 2 truths: 1) When it is time for me to go another spiritual path...I will know and 2) My journey is between God and ME....no one else.
In talking with him I thought perhaps I can help myself by writing about what some of my thoughts are. But I am not sure where to even begin. I guess I will simply begin & see where I start and where I end up.
This exercise is not to come up with concise information or answers. Some of what I write does not mean I agree with what I write or that I believe or disbelieve what I write. These are simply just going to be thoughts.
How do I describe the feelings I have been going through? Some of my thoughts have been questions.
Is the ministry becoming self serving? There is so much push for outreach now. Why not just teach principles for deliverance instead of standards to meet? The Way Disciples have to witness to so many people to get a few people thru the class. Why not open up the doors to the vast amount of knowledge we have available? Why not sell our books in places like Borders? Why not sell our materials via the internet? Why not openly confront the accusations agaist Dr. W and the Ministry? Why not issue a formal apology for some of the immoral activities? Why not lift the mortgage issue allowing people without condemnation to pursue their goals and dreams? Not just mortgage but small business loans and car loans as well, as well as some student loans? Does God really require the tithe or to let each person determine the amount they want to give? Why make classes and functions so much work? Why not keep the work simple? Why questions people's motives or integrity or sincerity? Has prejudice replaced wisdom? In other words when a person makes judgements they believe "spiritually wise" is that really the case or is it because of prejudice? When people (believers) claim that God tells them something is that the case or is it simply intuition and common sense?
My hunch is that unless the Way Internationl opens wide its door, it is going to disintegrate. It needs to change to allow growth from within without compulsion. I sense that it is pushing to grow. I sense that it is stifling growth by overmanagement, micromangement, and by not being in tune to the needs of society.
I could be all wrong..time will tell, probably within 15 years. In the meantime I'll continue to hang around. I will continue my self help studies and I will continue to read the Word. I'll continue to get to know my heart again and have it become my best friend." End of entry.
There have been lots of journal entries since then...and I didn't wait 15 years to see what would happen. Funny, I remember I was almost afraid to write out these thoughts...in my own personal jounal!!!! In shorhand!!! My, the influence TWI has had over people's personal lives.... :unsure:
I think that those could have been the entries in many of our journals, had we been couragious enough to articulate our thoughts on paper.
I think that it sounds like the spirit of God was working in you....what blows my mind in hindsight was how I was trained to shut that voice out....
I learned to identify that as the voice of satan trying to trick me away from the word.....I learned to believe that the still small voice was to be silenced by running retemories through my mind non stop so that I couldn`t be tempted to question the mog......
If I was uneasy about a teaching or a requirement ..... it was because I had allowed darkness in....I must not think evil...I must not think outside of the box....I must not THINK period....just run scriptures non stop through my consciousness so as to not allow my mind to be contaminated.....shiver.
Thanks Rascal for articulating why you pushed those thoughts out. I haven't been able to put it down like you did...must be part of the reason it took me so long to get my contemplation out on paper. Fear that the adversary would get in my head. ...that's hard to admit....hard to admit the dishonesty with myself and with folks I love. Ouch :(
Thanks for bringing that stuff to mind and helping me continue to sort through some healing.
BTW: I had been in cognitive/talk therapy for about 2 years before that entry. Took awhile to get deep enough, to get some layers off, before I could handle it. Never wanted the ministry to be blamed...figured I was the problem.
I Love Bagpipes, Great post :) I had a lot of those thoughts too. Sheese I bet it was not easy writting all of that down. I would have been so afraid someone finding that when I was in.
how I was trained to shut that voice out....
I learned to identify that as the voice of satan trying to trick me away from the word.....I learned to believe that the still small voice was to be silenced by running retemories through my mind non stop so that I couldn`t be tempted to question the mog......
If I was uneasy about a teaching or a requirement ..... it was because I had allowed darkness in....I must not think evil...I must not think outside of the box....I must not THINK period....just run scriptures non stop through my consciousness so as to not allow my mind to be contaminated.....shiver.
During the period of time that I was in the process of leaving, my Waybrain and my own mind were at war.
A thought would come to me, and then a Waybrain thought would contradict it, often as a memory of some leader yelling something.
I actually started writing it down, with a line drawn down the middle of the paper, with my thoughts on one side and Waybrain responses on the other, back and forth, my thoughts, my Waybrain, my thoughts......
It was all part of the process of waking up, of my real self coming out of the stupor I had been in.
I realized that we have a brain for a reason. We are supposed to think our own thoughts and use our reasoning abilities.
Bagpipes, those thoughts you wrote down had some great insights into what was wrong with TWI.
Unfortunately, we were all suppressing our real thoughts and feelings in order to conform to what we were told was "spiritual" and an acceptable way to be.
It's so much better to be able to be human and free to come to conclusions about things, and have opinions and even disagree with people. And you could be right and you could even be wrong, but that's ok. Being wrong is not a sin.
I came up with an exercise I called "thought records" to help me to see/think objectively. I devised it from different books I read. You figured it out without a book!!! I had to read 4 books and pay someone before I could figure it out! :blink: But at least I finally figured it out....
I was just thinking yesterday, "I'm starting to love the taste of freedom...freedom from guilt!! It feels so good!!"
Bagpipes -- I have that Beruit book...my Dad gave it to me years ago...Maybe I take it off the shelf and read it now.
my major TWI problem is still
SILENCE IS CONSENT
I can't see it any other way. When I try to get a Buddha - like , I try to live and let live withthem...but I cant shake the evil that they really are. Don't get me wrong--Im a Buddist/Christian in a Libertarian body....But I still maintain that to perpetuate abuse: Silence is fundamental.
It's so much better to be able to be human and free to come to conclusions about things, and have opinions and even disagree with people. And you could be right and you could even be wrong, but that's ok. Being wrong is not a sin.
I thought it a good read Houndog. Didn't expect it to confront me regarding TWI though. I'm not politically savvy but wanted to understand the Middle East a little better. Saw someone reading it and inquired about it. Then read it. Some of it reads like (how I think) a Tom Clancey novel might be. Friedman lived through the stuff. Makes one appreciate freedom again.
WW..quite a signature. I still grapple with the silence stuff. It still pierces me...because I did it. And I'm still battling it. I'm working through stuff. I know it will take time. I'm working through learning to NOT be silent, to regain/maintain my integrity...to trust myself, my heart, my intuition, my gut, God working in me, all that stuff. Someone told me that my action of leaving is breaking the silence....that that action speaks louder than I may realize...
I keep posting here...I guess because I left so recently. Sometimes I get confused, thinking about the good folks in TWI, thinking maybe I've been too harsh in my mind sometimes. And sometimes I have. And other times I remember the good stuff. Anyway, I was reminded last night...that I TWI II is still stuck in its legalism and elitism. Here' the story:
S = Spouse
M= Me
(Spouse still attends TWI fellowships, but is on the outskirts now, really evaluating. Spouse is a good person, so please don't be harsh toward spouse for hanging with TWI. (God knows I have been in my head...but have to remember it took me a long time to see the light.) )
M: Who taught tonight?
S: ____ and ____ (with a small groan in spouse's voice)
M: What'd they teach on?
S: ABS (anoher small groan)
(M rolls eyes as to communicate, a disheartened "oh")
S: ______ taught that in order do operate impartation manies and to really reach spiritual heights one need to be ABS. (painstaking groan..indicating it was hard to sit through)
(My old Windows 95 ran out of room to keep posting...I'll continue):
S: They are so stuck....
M: Reminds of a 1 or so years ago when _____ told me he went to that new lady's house to share with her that if she wants healing she need to tithe.
M: I hated myself for not speaking up. At least I talked to the HFC to see if she knew about it.
(BTW: She said she did know about it and that _____ was wrong to tell me about it. I asked about the lady because I hadn't seen her around...that's when ____ told me. I was shell shocked when he told me that he and another person had done that. But I didn't say anything to him.....grrrr...still kick myself for that...)
That was the end of the conversation with spouse about the teaching. So.....TWI II has changed in that it doesn't hollar anymore....but the same legalistic doctrines are being propounded. Clarity for me and good reminder of one reason I left..
I know this happens in other organizations as well...legalism.
Just thought ya'll might want an update..on some of the current TWI III weekly teaching topics and has
TWI II really changed.....
(Daggum this old computer!!!)
Next post will be about my exit conversation with leadership...just 3 months ago.
What a racket....*IF* you want healing you must tithe????? .... that sounds like friggin extortion to me.
I never EVER recall Jesus asking someone to *tithe* before he healed them....I never EVER read once in the scriptures where tithing was a requirement of God for healing.....either before OR after...damn them.
They are shaking vulnerable people down for cash ....dangeling to offer of restored health like some sort of damned carrot in front of them....
I think since you are still trying to get everything straight in your own mind it is so so normal to be confused. It will come to you in your own time.
About the good people you know or knew in twi. There are good people!! There are also good people that believe every word that comes out of leaderships mouth. I don't know about now since I left in 86 but even then there were very good people in higher up positions (they are for the most part gone),only one left that I know of.
Then there are people we just don't get along with for what ever reasons. That's just life.
Then there are the people that tow the company line of twi(Pawns). They don't care about how you see things it is all black and white to them. They have different motivations I guess. Maybe the power makes them feel almighty, maybe to kiss arse or to move up in the rank and file. These are the people that serve the generals and help the generals get everything handed to them on a platter. The generals (just my opinion) are up there working to make sure they have the life of luxury and that is it.
Thanks pipes....
What a racket....*IF* you want healing you must tithe????? .... that sounds like friggin extortion to me.
I never EVER recall Jesus asking someone to *tithe* before he healed them....I never EVER read once in the scriptures where tithing was a requirement of God for healing.....either before OR after...damn them.
They are shaking vulnerable people down for cash ....dangeling to offer of restored health like some sort of damned carrot in front of them....
Pipes, I know that there are really good people in twi.... the problem IS.....that twi teaches otherwise very good people to do really bad things....ie pressuring sick folks for cash in order to recieve healing from GOD <_<
I consider myself a fairly *good* person...earnest and genuine in my desire to help folks......yet I know that I did some terrible things because I was told that God required it of me in twi :(
I'm looking forward to hearing about your exit conversation with your leader.
As for the ABS thing - "By his stripes we are healed." Telling people to give money for healing is saying Christ didn't do enough by suffering and dying for us.
Great Posts! Alot of heart! I hope we haven't lost DJ? She is at a great crossroad in her life and DJ, just to let you know that God is always there, no strings attached.
Gillian, I do hope also that DJS is still hanging around.
It's a lot to take in at one time. Sometimes it can sound like folks are not moving on after being hurt by TWI. That just shows how deep the hurt has been. DJ, someone may have mentioned this already...at some point you may want to look at the book "Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". It is NOT a book about being a victim, but a book about the subtleties of legalism and abuse and the damage it wreaks in peoples' lives, a book about breaking the silence so healing can happen, a book about grace, a book about one's own relationship with God.
I stated in my last post that I would post my exit conversation with leadership. I've pondered whether or not to do that. I question myself as to why I want to post it. :unsure: Am I posting it to vent? Am I just trying to spread some sort of evil thinking? Am I posting it to help anyone? Would it help anyone? What would the profit be in posting it? Is it edifying commuication? Am I being nit picky? Am I just being bitter,vindictive, or gossipy? Am I trying to prove something? (Perhaps all this questioning of my motives is part of the instilling from TWI? Breaking the cover mode of operation is a hard thing to do. :( )
I don't know the answers to all these questions I posed to myself. :blink: However, in light of the topic, "Has TWI II Really Changed", the post might be helpful. Perhaps a good thread would be about exit strategies....but there may already be a thread like that in the archives...or somewhere.
Suffice it to say, I put much thought and prayer and journaling and some planning into my "notice" to the leadership. I thought of every possible response from leadership, and every single response was posed. (My conversation was with a region leader.) A few hurtful things were said to me..but not in an accusing tone, most of it was in a heartfelt, caring tone. I almost second guessed myself. However, two things said in the course of the conversation were signals loud & clear that I had made the right choice. Even these two statements were stated in that heartfelt, caring tone. Sometime I might post more of the conversation. (Of course I journaled it after the talk.)
The two loud & clear statements to me from leadership (close to verbatim):
1. "......But just so you know, most people who leave do not come back."
2. "It is not a prayerful decision. I believe if it was then your choice would have been to stay with us." (This was stated toward the end of the conversation. I had stated at the beginning of the discourse that I had put lots of thought & prayer into this decision.)
With statement #1 above, leadership hung themselves. Statement #2 made it loud and clear that the thinking is still that outside of TWI God's blessings are limited, if not all together unavailable.
Other inferences made to me: >Perhaps I wasn't giving enough. >By leaving I would disrupt the unity in my family. >I (not the ministry) am responsible for my spiritual nourishment. >If I have felt pressure that is not the heart of the leadership or the ministry. >That I lied when stating that I had put much thought & prayer into this decision.
Other statements were that s/he respected my decision & choice, that I was welcome at fellowship anytime, and that they love me. I stated that I love them too. (Perhaps that is why I struggle whether to post this or not, because I do love these folks...don't I?)
So it was a conversation laced with sincerity (which I believe was real) and "accusations" (which I do not believe were intended to be accusations, but were intended as confrontations). There was genuine care and concern.
Yet, it is obvious IMHO that elitist thinking still prevails and that TWI (in its thinking) owes no apologies.
Bliss, she probably believes "A" god told you to leave.
Bagpipes, it's all in how they treat you once you left that shows you how much they really love you. ;) It's also good news that you've started recognizing the subtly abusive and loaded language that they use. I honestly think that the long-timers, like most RC's, have become so adept at manipulation that way that they don't even realize they are doing it anymore.
Both Moneyhands are really good at it. Bobby Boy did apologize for hurting anyone IF he actually hurt anyone when he and Dootie were "discussing" my covert GSpot activity once. The sarcasm was so thick you couldn't miss it. Sincerely sorry for destroying lives? Notachance!!
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I Love Bagpipes
I was persusing my journal this morning in light of remembering where I was when getting brave enough to really consider deeply TWI.(I know I a considering deeply when I get out of my head and onto paper.) I came upon the following entry. I realize I make myself vulnerable by posting this. Please remember the context in which it was written...an innie whose life had been TWI for over 2 decades, an innie who had (for the most part) "good" leadership, an innie who wanted TWI to change, and innie who (with spouse) wanted the kids to have the Word. Some may wonder why it took so long to express this stuff in my journaling; but that is a long story. I post this to help DJS think, if DJS is still lurking. DJS I left TWI just within the past few months. BTW, journaling hs changed my life on many levels...
Side note: This entry was written before ever even going to the web and doing a search on TWI. I had heard some of JAL tapes way back in 1986(?) so knew some of the VPW accusations. This entry is May, 03. I did not view GSC until September, 03. I did not exit until October, 05. Also Dr. S is not a TWIer.
"5/09/03: ...I saw Dr. S today...It was good to see him. I discussed my contemplations regarding TWI. I had a hard time putting what I have been feeling into words. Somehow I got some of it out. He stated 2 truths: 1) When it is time for me to go another spiritual path...I will know and 2) My journey is between God and ME....no one else.
In talking with him I thought perhaps I can help myself by writing about what some of my thoughts are. But I am not sure where to even begin. I guess I will simply begin & see where I start and where I end up.
This exercise is not to come up with concise information or answers. Some of what I write does not mean I agree with what I write or that I believe or disbelieve what I write. These are simply just going to be thoughts.
How do I describe the feelings I have been going through? Some of my thoughts have been questions.
Is the ministry becoming self serving? There is so much push for outreach now. Why not just teach principles for deliverance instead of standards to meet? The Way Disciples have to witness to so many people to get a few people thru the class. Why not open up the doors to the vast amount of knowledge we have available? Why not sell our books in places like Borders? Why not sell our materials via the internet? Why not openly confront the accusations agaist Dr. W and the Ministry? Why not issue a formal apology for some of the immoral activities? Why not lift the mortgage issue allowing people without condemnation to pursue their goals and dreams? Not just mortgage but small business loans and car loans as well, as well as some student loans? Does God really require the tithe or to let each person determine the amount they want to give? Why make classes and functions so much work? Why not keep the work simple? Why questions people's motives or integrity or sincerity? Has prejudice replaced wisdom? In other words when a person makes judgements they believe "spiritually wise" is that really the case or is it because of prejudice? When people (believers) claim that God tells them something is that the case or is it simply intuition and common sense?
My hunch is that unless the Way Internationl opens wide its door, it is going to disintegrate. It needs to change to allow growth from within without compulsion. I sense that it is pushing to grow. I sense that it is stifling growth by overmanagement, micromangement, and by not being in tune to the needs of society.
I could be all wrong..time will tell, probably within 15 years. In the meantime I'll continue to hang around. I will continue my self help studies and I will continue to read the Word. I'll continue to get to know my heart again and have it become my best friend." End of entry.
There have been lots of journal entries since then...and I didn't wait 15 years to see what would happen. Funny, I remember I was almost afraid to write out these thoughts...in my own personal jounal!!!! In shorhand!!! My, the influence TWI has had over people's personal lives.... :unsure:
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rascal
Wow bagpipes....
I think that those could have been the entries in many of our journals, had we been couragious enough to articulate our thoughts on paper.
I think that it sounds like the spirit of God was working in you....what blows my mind in hindsight was how I was trained to shut that voice out....
I learned to identify that as the voice of satan trying to trick me away from the word.....I learned to believe that the still small voice was to be silenced by running retemories through my mind non stop so that I couldn`t be tempted to question the mog......
If I was uneasy about a teaching or a requirement ..... it was because I had allowed darkness in....I must not think evil...I must not think outside of the box....I must not THINK period....just run scriptures non stop through my consciousness so as to not allow my mind to be contaminated.....shiver.
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks Rascal for articulating why you pushed those thoughts out. I haven't been able to put it down like you did...must be part of the reason it took me so long to get my contemplation out on paper. Fear that the adversary would get in my head. ...that's hard to admit....hard to admit the dishonesty with myself and with folks I love. Ouch :(
Thanks for bringing that stuff to mind and helping me continue to sort through some healing.
BTW: I had been in cognitive/talk therapy for about 2 years before that entry. Took awhile to get deep enough, to get some layers off, before I could handle it. Never wanted the ministry to be blamed...figured I was the problem.
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justloafing
I Love Bagpipes, Great post :) I had a lot of those thoughts too. Sheese I bet it was not easy writting all of that down. I would have been so afraid someone finding that when I was in.
Rascle, I believe they called that the "Old Man"
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outandabout
During the period of time that I was in the process of leaving, my Waybrain and my own mind were at war.
A thought would come to me, and then a Waybrain thought would contradict it, often as a memory of some leader yelling something.
I actually started writing it down, with a line drawn down the middle of the paper, with my thoughts on one side and Waybrain responses on the other, back and forth, my thoughts, my Waybrain, my thoughts......
It was all part of the process of waking up, of my real self coming out of the stupor I had been in.
I realized that we have a brain for a reason. We are supposed to think our own thoughts and use our reasoning abilities.
Bagpipes, those thoughts you wrote down had some great insights into what was wrong with TWI.
Unfortunately, we were all suppressing our real thoughts and feelings in order to conform to what we were told was "spiritual" and an acceptable way to be.
It's so much better to be able to be human and free to come to conclusions about things, and have opinions and even disagree with people. And you could be right and you could even be wrong, but that's ok. Being wrong is not a sin.
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I Love Bagpipes
I came up with an exercise I called "thought records" to help me to see/think objectively. I devised it from different books I read. You figured it out without a book!!! I had to read 4 books and pay someone before I could figure it out! :blink: But at least I finally figured it out....
I was just thinking yesterday, "I'm starting to love the taste of freedom...freedom from guilt!! It feels so good!!"
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justloafing
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DaddyHoundog
Bagpipes -- I have that Beruit book...my Dad gave it to me years ago...Maybe I take it off the shelf and read it now.
my major TWI problem is still
SILENCE IS CONSENT
I can't see it any other way. When I try to get a Buddha - like , I try to live and let live withthem...but I cant shake the evil that they really are. Don't get me wrong--Im a Buddist/Christian in a Libertarian body....But I still maintain that to perpetuate abuse: Silence is fundamental.
Washingtonweather - Dhdg's wife
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WordWolf
Some people would say that silence serves the perpetrator....
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Lifted Up
I wish my deprogrammers had realized that.
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I Love Bagpipes
I thought it a good read Houndog. Didn't expect it to confront me regarding TWI though. I'm not politically savvy but wanted to understand the Middle East a little better. Saw someone reading it and inquired about it. Then read it. Some of it reads like (how I think) a Tom Clancey novel might be. Friedman lived through the stuff. Makes one appreciate freedom again.
WW..quite a signature. I still grapple with the silence stuff. It still pierces me...because I did it.
And I'm still battling it. I'm working through stuff. I know it will take time. I'm working through learning to NOT be silent, to regain/maintain my integrity...to trust myself, my heart, my intuition, my gut, God working in me, all that stuff. Someone told me that my action of leaving is breaking the silence....that that action speaks louder than I may realize... 
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I Love Bagpipes
I keep posting here...I guess because I left so recently. Sometimes I get confused, thinking about the good folks in TWI, thinking maybe I've been too harsh in my mind sometimes. And sometimes I have. And other times I remember the good stuff. Anyway, I was reminded last night...that I TWI II is still stuck in its legalism and elitism. Here' the story:
S = Spouse
M= Me
(Spouse still attends TWI fellowships, but is on the outskirts now, really evaluating. Spouse is a good person, so please don't be harsh toward spouse for hanging with TWI. (God knows I have been in my head...but have to remember it took me a long time to see the light.) )
M: Who taught tonight?
S: ____ and ____ (with a small groan in spouse's voice)
M: What'd they teach on?
S: ABS (anoher small groan)
(M rolls eyes as to communicate, a disheartened "oh")
S: ______ taught that in order do operate impartation manies and to really reach spiritual heights one need to be ABS. (painstaking groan..indicating it was hard to sit through)
M: (growl)
S: They are so stuck....
M:
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I Love Bagpipes
(My old Windows 95 ran out of room to keep posting...I'll continue):
S: They are so stuck....
M: Reminds of a 1 or so years ago when _____ told me he went to that new lady's house to share with her that if she wants healing she need to tithe.
M: I hated myself for not speaking up. At least I talked to the HFC to see if she knew about it.
(BTW: She said she did know about it and that _____ was wrong to tell me about it. I asked about the lady because I hadn't seen her around...that's when ____ told me. I was shell shocked when he told me that he and another person had done that. But I didn't say anything to him.....grrrr...still kick myself for that...)
That was the end of the conversation with spouse about the teaching. So.....TWI II has changed in that it doesn't hollar anymore....but the same legalistic doctrines are being propounded. Clarity for me and good reminder of one reason I left..
I know this happens in other organizations as well...legalism.
Just thought ya'll might want an update..on some of the current TWI III weekly teaching topics and has
TWI II really changed.....
(Daggum this old computer!!!)
Next post will be about my exit conversation with leadership...just 3 months ago.
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rascal
Thanks pipes....
What a racket....*IF* you want healing you must tithe????? .... that sounds like friggin extortion to me.
I never EVER recall Jesus asking someone to *tithe* before he healed them....I never EVER read once in the scriptures where tithing was a requirement of God for healing.....either before OR after...damn them.
They are shaking vulnerable people down for cash ....dangeling to offer of restored health like some sort of damned carrot in front of them....
It really IS all about the money isn`t it?
This deeply disturbs me.
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justloafing
Can't wait to read the rest Baqpipes.
I think since you are still trying to get everything straight in your own mind it is so so normal to be confused. It will come to you in your own time.
About the good people you know or knew in twi. There are good people!! There are also good people that believe every word that comes out of leaderships mouth. I don't know about now since I left in 86 but even then there were very good people in higher up positions (they are for the most part gone),only one left that I know of.
Then there are people we just don't get along with for what ever reasons. That's just life.
Then there are the people that tow the company line of twi(Pawns). They don't care about how you see things it is all black and white to them. They have different motivations I guess. Maybe the power makes them feel almighty, maybe to kiss arse or to move up in the rank and file. These are the people that serve the generals and help the generals get everything handed to them on a platter. The generals (just my opinion) are up there working to make sure they have the life of luxury and that is it.
Sick as anything
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
pipes
i met many wonderful people in twi
but
i am sure there were good people in hitlers nazis too!
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rascal
Pipes, I know that there are really good people in twi.... the problem IS.....that twi teaches otherwise very good people to do really bad things....ie pressuring sick folks for cash in order to recieve healing from GOD <_<
I consider myself a fairly *good* person...earnest and genuine in my desire to help folks......yet I know that I did some terrible things because I was told that God required it of me in twi :(
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outandabout
Bagpipes,
I'm looking forward to hearing about your exit conversation with your leader.
As for the ABS thing - "By his stripes we are healed." Telling people to give money for healing is saying Christ didn't do enough by suffering and dying for us.
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Gillian Rules
Great Posts!
Alot of heart! 
I hope we haven't lost DJ? 
She is at a great crossroad in her life and DJ, just to let you know that God is always there, no strings attached.
We sure love you.
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I Love Bagpipes
Houndog, did you peruse "Beirut...." book yet?
Gillian, I do hope also that DJS is still hanging around.
It's a lot to take in at one time. Sometimes it can sound like folks are not moving on after being hurt by TWI. That just shows how deep the hurt has been. DJ, someone may have mentioned this already...at some point you may want to look at the book "Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". It is NOT a book about being a victim, but a book about the subtleties of legalism and abuse and the damage it wreaks in peoples' lives, a book about breaking the silence so healing can happen, a book about grace, a book about one's own relationship with God.
I stated in my last post that I would post my exit conversation with leadership. I've pondered whether or not to do that. I question myself as to why I want to post it. :unsure: Am I posting it to vent? Am I just trying to spread some sort of evil thinking? Am I posting it to help anyone? Would it help anyone? What would the profit be in posting it? Is it edifying commuication? Am I being nit picky? Am I just being bitter,vindictive, or gossipy? Am I trying to prove something? (Perhaps all this questioning of my motives is part of the instilling from TWI?
Breaking the cover mode of operation is a hard thing to do. :( )
I don't know the answers to all these questions I posed to myself. :blink: However, in light of the topic, "Has TWI II Really Changed", the post might be helpful. Perhaps a good thread would be about exit strategies....but there may already be a thread like that in the archives...or somewhere.
Suffice it to say, I put much thought and prayer and journaling and some planning into my "notice" to the leadership. I thought of every possible response from leadership, and every single response was posed. (My conversation was with a region leader.) A few hurtful things were said to me..but not in an accusing tone, most of it was in a heartfelt, caring tone. I almost second guessed myself. However, two things said in the course of the conversation were signals loud & clear that I had made the right choice. Even these two statements were stated in that heartfelt, caring tone. Sometime I might post more of the conversation. (Of course I journaled it after the talk.)
The two loud & clear statements to me from leadership (close to verbatim):
1. "......But just so you know, most people who leave do not come back."
2. "It is not a prayerful decision. I believe if it was then your choice would have been to stay with us." (This was stated toward the end of the conversation. I had stated at the beginning of the discourse that I had put lots of thought & prayer into this decision.)
With statement #1 above, leadership hung themselves. Statement #2 made it loud and clear that the thinking is still that outside of TWI God's blessings are limited, if not all together unavailable.
Other inferences made to me: >Perhaps I wasn't giving enough. >By leaving I would disrupt the unity in my family. >I (not the ministry) am responsible for my spiritual nourishment. >If I have felt pressure that is not the heart of the leadership or the ministry. >That I lied when stating that I had put much thought & prayer into this decision.
Other statements were that s/he respected my decision & choice, that I was welcome at fellowship anytime, and that they love me. I stated that I love them too. (Perhaps that is why I struggle whether to post this or not, because I do love these folks...don't I?)
So it was a conversation laced with sincerity (which I believe was real) and "accusations" (which I do not believe were intended to be accusations, but were intended as confrontations). There was genuine care and concern.
Yet, it is obvious IMHO that elitist thinking still prevails and that TWI (in its thinking) owes no apologies.
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frank123lol
Pipes,They(twi) are so subtle...They think and are.. so full of themselves... There is plenty of people
outside of twi who are godly and who have a big heart....But you cannot see it if you hang around twi all the time.
I respect your feelings,you will suceed as our God is a constant in our lives and is always willing to come to our aid.
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bliss
I told an "innie" relative that "God told us to leave."..........................
"oh really?" was the response.
Do you think she believed me? :unsure:
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Belle
Bliss, she probably believes "A" god told you to leave.
Bagpipes, it's all in how they treat you once you left that shows you how much they really love you. ;) It's also good news that you've started recognizing the subtly abusive and loaded language that they use. I honestly think that the long-timers, like most RC's, have become so adept at manipulation that way that they don't even realize they are doing it anymore.
Both Moneyhands are really good at it. Bobby Boy did apologize for hurting anyone IF he actually hurt anyone when he and Dootie were "discussing" my covert GSpot activity once.
The sarcasm was so thick you couldn't miss it. Sincerely sorry for destroying lives? Notachance!!
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Kevlar2000
Bliss, I've been disassociated from the Way religion for almost 20 years, but I would almost bet money their unspoken thought was,
"Which god?"
(And I didn't even need Word of Knowledge for that one.
Just chalk it up to genuine spiritual suspicion.)
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