I went to the grocery store sunday with my daughter,we ran into a greasespotter,so I began talking to him of course(I have only known him for almost 30 years)and along came a innies daughter,she is in college
So she talked to my daughter who is also in college.Me,all I got was the "stare".
So nope nothing has changed in cultland.BIG Rasberry PHHTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! see the spittle fly on that one!
Kinder gentler ? To whom? To what? I knoww the dollars that are in my pocket they wantem in thiers!!
Cause they do not care diddly about me.
I was told if I left twi I would be isolated,left to the deevill to do as he would with me,and the kicker I would
be waving my pee pee in Gods face,Kinder gentler,I do not think soo...
First of all we are glad you came here. The truth is the healing balm. As much as you have had to deal with, consider those that were thrown out on their A$$, slandered, accused of atrocities such as being a homos (when they were not), devil possessed etc., destroying good family relationships; now that is really hard to deal with, especially before Waydale & GS. There was no way to find out if others went thru the same thing and even if you were really sane. Some committed suidide? So TWI II is responsible for some of the believer's deaths because they denied them "good counsel" in "the multitude of counsellors where there is safety". Instead they trashed their families, their lives, took their homes and alot of other evils. So although it hurt your heart to have to go thru what you did by staying in, it can't compare to what many here have had to go thru. Your leadership is still corrupt even though they may not always show their true colors.
I have to agree with Allen when he said they know the leadership and can't buy it. There will always be very sweet loving people in TWI II, however the Word says you know them by their fruit. If the fruit is putrid (at the root and it still is) then the tree will be contaminated and die.
I still have personal contact with some people in and I can tell you that the they as leaders & those in the upper echelon are not in agreement with your observation that things are better. It's only a matter of time before their barbs come out and their doctrine is still way off. God can work in your fellowships, you can teach the Word, you don't need TWI. You see it's The Body of Christ to which you and I belong, not the Body of TWI II. God had to move on and I cannot tell you the healing that has taken place in peoples lives after they got out from under "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth". When grace is gone, the love is gone & you have legalism and God is not there no matter how many nice people there are in your fellowships. You are still supporting a devilish "root".
Why do you not trust your own judgement and give God the opportunity of showing you as he has most of us here. You probably know more Word in your heart than those that have taken the positions to be "over" you.
So I still see major FEAR in the heart of the letter I was sent. I spent many, many, many years undershepherding this person to GET RID OF FEAR. (sorry not yelling, just making a point). I am pi$$ed that all my work to make her life more peaceful and blessed has gone down the Sthiter. (mispelled on purpose). Those that are responsible are still in charge.
Why not support a fellowship that is on the Word and does have the blessings of God upon it. I'm not suggesting any one group because YOU and your fellowship are a Group of believers fully functional under the leadership of Jesus Christ and he is the one we ultimately want to work for, glorify and bless.
So sorry I have a problem with the people I know that are still in taking any "nice pills". (Again I am not talking about the "leaves" on the tree) If you were to start fellowshipping with believers who left, do you really think for one minute, they would not come down on you. Try it.
And who are they to judge you or anyone else with all their wrong devilish doctrine which led up to error that caused so much heartache. They are still pulling the wool over people's eyes. I spoke to one recently who still thinks they are "God on a stick". Made me want to puke and on top of that they themselves are so FEARFUL by their "controlling" nature that it's detestable to God. They still have to live in a sterile environment & call the shots. That whole group at TWI II in New Knoxville, should leave and go work real jobs and see what life is really about. They think they are still doing God a big service by the junk they do there. They are clueless and living in a time warp no matter how gooey or gushey they get. Ha, they even through Mrs. Wierwille out when it was going to hit their pocketbooks.
I am glad you are here and I wish you the very best that God has to offer. You will find many counsellors here that can help you through absorbing all of this, I know it's alot at first, I just went thru coming here myself but I've been out for a while
I know this is a lot to take in at once, so please don't be overwhelmed.
There's a lot you don't know yet about the other side of the story. Please take the time to do a lot of reading on this forum and on others, and begin to piece together the entire picture. Allowing yourself only to consider TWI's side has skewed your perspective to see only what they want you to see.
Something else to consider DJS, why have they not at least asked the innies to reach out to those that have left if they are no longe M & A. Apologize for them (under their instruction), not because you want to but because they want to correct a wrong that was done.
It might not fly but why haven't they not even dealt with this.
Another thing, when the gentleman who has a child buried at the cemetary in the Way Woods came to visit the gravesite, why didn't they greet him with open arms, help him deal with his loss. That would have made a great statement to those that are out and M & A. It could have opened a door of utterance.
No they took him to court? Nice, changed, I think not. They are lying to their own people and that stinks.
I don't have a lot time right now, I'll have a lot more to say later. I have many deadlines to meet this week. I just wanted to address a few points. I haven't figured out how to do the quote thing yet.
Most of my comments are to Belle but not all.
In reference to "legal stuff" I was referring to LEGALISM. I'm sorry if I missed communicated. No they don't say anything about the law suits. I find my info. out on sites like this and a network of innes who do the same.
Frankly, I don't know many businesses who publize any legal problems willingly. I'm not saying that in total defence of twi but just take look around at the companies you know have lawsuits. Usually, the only reason you know about them is that fact that the press got wind. Even Oprah's legal matters have been made confidential. In all honesty, I would like to find out about lawsuits from them, but from a business stand point after working in major corporations in finance, I understand why they don't. I'm not saying that is their reasoning - I don't know.
In my first letter I don't recall saying that everything was perfect. Let me ask you a question - How have you changed in the last 20 yrs - 10 yrs - 5yrs. You've changed, everyone of us on this site has changed, can no one involved in twi change for the good ????? It takes time we are all doing major healing right now. I know people's lives were ruined I watched it first hand. I've heard of the rapes and pimp daddies - it's now common knowledge for the innes. Why didn't people do something before - it's about timing and knowing when to do something. You can learn this lesson from David. He knew when to hide and when to take it on. Why, because he listened to his heavenly father. It's about timing, wisdom, and common sense. Have you ever wondered what would more could have happened if things went differently. We don't know - it could have been much, much worse.
We all want an apology too. Like most of you I'm not holding my breath either. As far as top leasdership I have seen major changes in the way things have been handled. It has been with love and great respect towards people. I think the reason there are no apologies coming forth is fear of lawsuits. (my opinion) I haven't seen the great domineering attitude of control. I haven't been asked in years if I'm in debt, to see my budget, schedule, or any personal business. We went to adv. sp. we were not asked if we had debt. (It is unclear right now if that is a guideline) I know it is for fel. co-or, wd and wc.
I got in twi in the midwest and really didn't know top leadership. Then I moved into the 250 miles area. ( no, it is not mandatory to make a once a month visit anymore) Only in the last few years have I seen a big difference going there. The teaching are boring but it is very sweet and welcoming there. I have not always felt that way. We used to get the "stare right through you look" - like you weren't there. By staying long weekends there I have gotten to know some of the top leadership and others ( a little) it's a very different tune. They go out of their way to make people feel welcomed. Of course, if you go there to stir up Sxxt you will have security called - any company would protect themselves. I haven't seen the" really tight" security in a long time. But there has been local teenage vandilism as of late. There still needs to be a lot of change but as the saying goes "Rome was not built in a day". I may not stick around, but for now I see positve change - that gives me hope. Also, I'm not stupid I'll know when it's time to leave.
At times, I have not went to fellowships for months because it sucked or gave ABS. For a while we didn't get the tapes or mag because for a long time they sucked. I just threw my money away. I can say they are both getting better not in huge amounts but getting better. (By the way, I never once was confronted about any of it. Nothing was said - like back a few years ago) I just came and went as I pleased. We still have people come and go as they please - it is not demanded to be a faithful, every fellowship believer, or don't come anymore.
We have not been told to contact people. I think most of us are doing it on our own. We know the part we played in all the wrong that was done and seek forgiveness in many cases. Yes, a lot of us still have contact with people who have left. We don't keep it a secret, it's not a big issue anymore, atleast in my experience.
In my personal area only, we have been encouraged, if we can to talk to friends of ours who have left and find out why. The point in doing that is to present it to HQ. Not to bring them back, although we are having a quite a few come back ( even M&A falsely accused of being homo). My fellowship is growing so fast and need to split soon. In other areas, they don't grow at all. You can see a marked difference in leadership, my observance is that these areas still have some legalism somewhere. The seeds you sow will bear fruit - it will be good or bad. Right. After talking to friends in these areas - things are starting to change, slowly but they are. The leadership is losing up. There are areas that are growing so fast they can't keep with it all.
As far as the numbers go, wc wd etc. They have been really low for a while. They are slowly building positive things back in place and the bad name that these programs got are being replaced with good.
By the way, My display name is my name. DJ then S for my last name - I did this so that it would be easy to remember.
We say Christmas, Val Day etc. That was a stupid thing that got started. I even say create - look it up in the dictionary it has many different uses than "God Created"
Do you want to know if the M&A are welcomed and the status removed - Let me ask this ....... What would be the point of you wanting to come back??????? Is it to cause trouble and be antagonistic?????? Then the answer will prob. be a resounding no. If you genuinely want to see what's going on and have a curious but cautioned attitude - I think I can honestly say "YES" you will be welcomed.
How can I dare say that???? I've seen it happen. Some of you will scuff at this - but the one thing you can't dispute are my experiences.
Much love to all - DJS
ps I'd like to know exactly all the polices that lcm put in place that are still today, in cement. Thanks for the Valentine Cookies they look really pretty.
djs, I would never call you a liar and I am sure things seem a lot better. They probably are from your perspective. Now lets flash back 26 years when I was involved. A pfal grad.
Our home fellowships were fun. We did the word as best we could and brought new people to twig. Mean while ole vp and lcm were at hq raping our sisters in Christ. Suicide was going on because of our leaders but I thought everything was so Godly from top to bottom. I left in 86 only to find out in 99 what really was going on at twi. I never knew any of it even being in the corps. I had heard rumors of abuse.
Now vp is dead and lcm is gone for ever (IMHO). One thing that still bothers me is the leadership that still is there. It is the same leadership that knew all about the abuses and also helped in those abuses.
I guess my point is.............They can change their tune and try and make it like twi in the olden days but just remember how corrupt it was then.
I do understand what you are saying and it may seem like things are changing but the top leadership are still the rotten apples that made people die and ripped lives apart all in the name of God.
I do like to hear how you now perceive twi now. I believe it to be truthfull and honest. Thank you for comming here and being honest with us.
DJS...some good points you made...however..TWI is NOT a business, it is meant to be a CHURCH !
A church that should be promoting things like honesty, integrity, openess, love, etc.. and then leading by example.
The leaderships mentality will not change because they are in a mental fishbowl, out of touch with the real struggle in life.
LCM may have learnt about some of the real world whilst going through his recent predicament, however he still more than likely is carrying his (sexual) baggage around with him.
And as I have repeatedly said before, the 'new' leadership positions at h.q. level speak volumes to me.
"Steady as she goes, full steam ahead" (as the unseen iceberg gets closer)
Actually, when I think about it, TWI has already hit the iceberg and is stern down in the water.
Thank you for taking the time to compose a response.
However, all you are saying about how things have changed, are the very same ways TWI changed after the Geer splitoff.
Before then, I could go to HQ and get the "stare right through you look." As a matter of fact, At the opening of the WOW Auditorium, Don Wierwille gave me that exact stare through-- like I was a piece of scum on his newly opened building and what the hell was I doing there. You see, after spending a year on staff in 1982-1983, I saw some pretty intense corruption, called a confrontation meeting with two trustee level people and another person and read them the riot act. This was not well received, and I left of my own accord, and prayed for a change.
When the Geer splitoff happened, there was indeed a change. The same, very same changes you speak of. I too spent some time with "top leadership" afterward-- trustee level-- and was assured changes would be made. They fell all over themselves to try to make us feel welcomed and comfortable. Even got a handwritten apology from Don. Craig gushed at the possiblity that my husband would help. Everything seemed hunky dory. My husband and I stayed and helped try to rebuild the ministry, trusting changes would occur.
Yeah, right.
After several years of "sweetness and light," darkness again fell on The Way International.
You are singing the same song I and many others have sung before. And the same old thing always happens. It's a repeating cycle of legalism and license, of squeeze and a slight release, right before the viper clamps down once more, squeezing the life out of its prey.
Why?
It's evil from the root.
You still have the very person the judge felt was knowledgable of and participated in setting Fern Allen up for (ok oldies, edited for you:) "allegdly" getting raped, heading up your organization. Yes, Rosalie Rivenbark. And you have people like Mxrk and Josephine Wxllxce as region coordinators: Mxrk, who threatened death to me, to my family, and to others in my fellowship. That's just a ferinstance.
The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil. Rivenbark is not only one who hearkened to lies, but also originates them. The organization needs to be scrapped from the top down and the bottom up.
You have an organization that you even feel is holding back on admitting its wrongs for fear of legal action.
So they're afraid of..........
JUSTICE?
God requires his men and women to dojustice and judgment.
And that poisoned organization quivers in fear at the very thought of having to render true justice to those they have harmed, because it would bankrupt them.
I say let justice and judgment roll down upon The Way International.
Hey, you know the old saying... No justice, no peace. Biblical, too.
You say you are smart enough to know when to leave?
Yeah, so was I, but I still left decades too late, trying to save an organization that simply is not salvageable.
Don't make the same mistake. The only thing worse than spending 20 years in a bad organization is spending 20 years and one more second.
You still have the very person the judge felt was knowledgable of and participated in setting Fern Allen up for getting raped, heading up your organization.
Rape was one of the allegations that was never proven in court.
That's kinda what is nice about an actual trial ... the prosecution has a chance to prove an allegation, beyond a reasonable doubt.
Until then, the defense is considered innocent, until proven guilty.
"After reviewing the evidence, Judge John D. Schmitt rendered the "Decision and Order Entry Granting Partial Summary Judgement" on Oct. 30, 2000. He states:
"There is evidence that Rosalie Rivenbark knew about Craig Martindale's extra marital sexual relationships, as early as 1995. Deposition of L. Craig Martindale, page 123.... There is evidence to indicate that both Rosalie Rivenbark and Ramona Biden played a role in the events leading up to the sexual encounter between Craig Martindale and (Mrs.) Allen. A jury must decide whether the encounter was consensual, or if an assault occurred. If the jury finds that an assault occurred, the same jury might reasonably conclude that defendants engaged in a pattern of corrupt activity, which led to the assault."
Yes, we know the case was settled.
If the defense had thought they had a snowball's chance in hell to disprove these charges, they WOULD NEVER HAVE MADE AN OFFER TO SETTLE.
But it doesn't change what happened Oldies.
And it doesn't change Rosie Lie's involvement or culpability.
And this woman, who "allegedly" participated in not only in helping line up Fillies for der Fuhrer, but also in covering their tracks,
I am sincerely glad to hear your news about the changes you've observed. As you can tell from the caption under my avatar, I personally am just not interested in that any more. I am, in fact, sort of leaning to the side of the argument advanced by a number of other ex-TWI people, such as Catcup, Rascal, et al.
You want to see if there have been the fundamental changes that you are bragging have happened? Try a little experiment. Go over to the "doctrinal" forum. Starting with the second half of page 3 of a thread called "misquoting jesus," a discussion develops in regard to the 4 crucified with Christ teaching advanced by TWI. The bulk of the remaining posts on that thread are dealing with that subject. Print it out, take it to your twig coordinator (they call them HFC's now, right?), and ask for some assistance in refuting the arguments made in that thread against the four crucified with Christ teaching.
Look at his/her reaction carefully.
If he/she actually sits down with you, goes through the Bible, gets out the interlinear, the lexicons, the concordances, and actually starts to 'work the word' with you, you may be onto something.
If you are sharply reproved...then I'd think about it.
If you so-called 'work the word' by pulling out collateral materials and don't actually go back to the Bible...then I'd think about it.
But if you'd really like to see if there is a legitimate change from the root, that would be a fairly low-risk way to do so.
Of course, if you're not willing to do so, then that, in of itself, is something to examine, as well.
Long ago I said, and would still, it's a free country. If you're happy, be happy. As long as people don't break the law and don't hurt each other, have at it.
-You're right, a lot of companies probably don't adertise their lawsuits, problems, fixes, what went wrong and what's going right to fix the wrong. That doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it "best" . Just because organizations of all types hide stuff and gloss over things doesn't make it right. So if that's the standard the Way's keeping to, it's not a very high one.
Like my example with the car busting down before it's time - this isn't rocket science here, or "Advanced Class" principles, y'know? It's common sense, decency. You'd think that wouldn't be that hard.
I guess I get the idea that if the Way's taking so long to rebuild to basic standards of courtesy, honor and dignity and it's a big accomplishment to treat people decently in some locations, it may be worse off than it appear.
I'm glad you're happy. Knowing nothing about you, what you want out of life or expect, I'd be hard pressed to deny your personal experiences and opinions. They're yours and if you've come by them honestly, more power to you. You certainly don't owe me an explanation but making the comments you have is appreciated.
My feeling is, I'm much happier with the way my life's developed on this route I'm on and if any "innie" didn't like it, I've got a short pier they can hop off of anytime. I guess the same works in reverse. It's nice to see a level of communication that isn't forced on your part (I assume) but is freely given.
I left TWI within the last few months; I had been involved for decades. IMO, there is a definite TWI I, TWI II, TWI III. Though I was WOW, in the Corps (though I dropped), and on staff (though I left), I was never "personally" abused,. During all this time I still maintained an ability to think for myself and pour my soul out to God. About six years ago I began journaling, and my life began to change. In the course of journaling stuff came up....suppressed emotions. I began to read LOTS to gain insight and answers. (This is going somewhere.)
During TWI II, the confrontation days. (YUK!), it was hard to read my Bible without feeling like I wasn't good enough. ...so I read other stuff and kept Jer. 29:29 in my thoughts. ("Know the thoughts I think of you, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end.") I went to a believer psychologist about 10 times and the person did help me, even recommended some books. I wanted healing.
Then TWI III....the silence dropped....and it still continues. For the last 3(?), 4(?), 5(?) years there has been little passion. Real life issues are not discussed, but are covered over with scripture and a pretend peace. People are not truly free to express their opinions without fear of being looked upon as not having it together. There is still an "us" and "them" attitude. There is still the attitude of being the true household of God, and those who have left are deceived and outside fellowship with the Father. And in leadership meetings talk still goes on: "How is so-and-so doing?" "Well, they are not ABSing. They don't call me for help so something must be up."
One of the major problems I had was this silence. TWI went from verbal abuse to neglect. All of sudden people are just supposed to move on with their lives like nothing ever happened. There has been no closure. It is like the past never existed, never even acknowledged. From what I observed the pretend peace, the silence, is NOT confined to local leadership. The legalism is confined to the local leadership; some fellowships are open and loving and some are still beating folks to live up to unrelenting standards. People's personal lives are not managed, but the talk (among leadership) and judgemental attitudes still continue.
Here is a quote from a book I read a few years ago by Thomas Friedman entitled "From Beirut to Jerusalem". The context is in light of how modern day Israel dealt with the Holocaust until the Holocaust was resurrected in 1961 at the trial of the Nazi war criminal Adolf Otto Eichmann.
"..In those day we barely learned about the Holocaust in school. The feeling, the whole atmosphere, was that the future must triumph over the past. All of us, parents & kids, tried to cover up what had happened."
Those lines pricked my soul when I read them; I was one of those parents (in light of TWI). Who was it that said something like if the past is not remembered it will be repeated?
Another quote from the same book: "And so...the play went on...Israeli's talking to the world about their 'enlightened' occupation, and then doing anything they had to do, behind closed doors, to keep the Palestinians quiet."
I left because my joy was gone and it was effecting my family. I write now with tears rolling down my cheeks because my joy is back. I have found again my first love. I'm still struggling, but I awake each morning without the hole in my soul.
(PS: I have continued to journal now for 6 years and have seen a psychologist (not a Way believer) for 5 years and I still read a lot. All of that has helped me to come to the place I am now. I don't need the psychologist now. I saw her for my final visit recently.)
All this to say... for some of us, TWI has waited too long to change. I am not convinced there has been real change, heart change. There have been behavioral changes, but have these been made for survival purposes...to keep the system going? Has the system become self serving? Is the system really interested in helping others, in helping people heal emotionally, physically, mentally? If so, the system needs to open its doors wide...but then it might fall apart because of legal issues.
One of the major problems I had was this silence. TWI went from verbal abuse to neglect. All of sudden people are just supposed to move on with their lives like nothing ever happened. There has been no closure. It is like the past never existed, never even acknowledged.
All this to say... for some of us, TWI has waited too long to change. I am not convinced there has been real change, heart change. There have been behavioral changes, but have these been made for survival purposes...
I'm so glad you have your joy back and I know how good that feels. I have tears of joy for you running down my cheeks.
It was so scary to even consider leaving and others said over and over how much better their lives were after they left, but it seemed impossible for that to happen to me. I can honestly say my life is 10 kajillion times better than it was when I was involved with TWI.
TWI has perfected the "If we don't talk about it, it never happened" mentality. They sugar coat issues with irrelevant Bible verses and tell people to just "trust God". There's no heart, no joy, no caring, no genuine love left in the heart of TWI. There are a few supporters who are good people, but they are so beaten down and taken advantage of that they can't see the forrest for the trees. It's sad, really.
1. Do you have a financial statement that shows where all the money goes to? (they should not hesitate to give you a detailed one)
2. Do you feel you are the one true church? (if they say "yes," they are an exclusive group and may teach a false gospel)
3. How much am I expected to give monetarily? (if they say you must tithe or give generous donations regularly, you may end up being exploited financially and made to feel guilty)
4. Can I disagree with the pastor or minister? What happens if I do? (if they say "no," you are being asked to have unquestioned obedience to the authority.)
5. Am I expected to show up for services every week, the Bible studies, and be actively involved in your church programs? (if they say "yes," they may be a high demand group)
6. Do you observe certain Sabbaths, holy days or similar meetings during the year that members are commanded to attend? (if they say "yes," they may be placing members under Old Testament laws which were fulfilled in Christ)
7. Do you have a headquarters with a general pastor that sets the pace for the belief system, distributing material and information to all congregations? (if they say "yes," they are probably authoritarian)
8. Is this leader accountable to anyone over him? (if they say no, there is potential for abuse)
9. Can I find salvation outside your church? (if they say "no," they are exclusive and cultic)
10. Can I ask questions concerning the past sins of the founder of the group, or any past corruption or immorality? (if they say "no," or that the past "should be forgotten," they are probably involved in cover-up and revision of their history)
11. Can I ask questions about Scriptures that disagree with your doctrines? (if they say "no," they are controlling and cultic)
Rape was one of the allegations that was never proven in court.
That's kinda what is nice about an actual trial ... the prosecution has a chance to prove an allegation, beyond a reasonable doubt.
Until then, the defense is considered innocent, until proven guilty.
Oldiesman:
The sex issue was consider by lCM a VPW a doctrine for the "spiritually mature enough":
"Later in the year, after Martindale himself had come to (Mrs.Allen) in an effort to cause her to capitulate and have sex with him, (Mrs.Allen) went to Ramona for her Christian advice and perspective on the issue as she herself was dreadfully confused and alarmed. Unbeknownst to (Mrs.Allen), Ramona was at this time part of the plan to sexually victimize (Mrs.Allen). When asked by (Mrs.Allen) "how can this be right with God?", Ramona told (Mrs.Allen) that it was right with God. She told her that V.P. Wierwille had told Martindale that his behavior was acceptable and that as the "man of God," Martindale carried enormous stress in running the ministry and that she ((Mrs.)) could help alleviate this stress by allowing Martindale to have sex with her. Having sex with Martindale, Ramona reasoned, was in effect helping God. If Martindale were less stressed, then he could in turn, carry out his God-given duties more effectively. Ramona recounted that Martindale had said that Wierwille had taught him to consider all the women in the kingdom to be his- he was the king".
"Ramona brought (Mrs. Allen) for her first sexual, violation by Martindale which took place in the Way Woods late on the evening of August 6, 1996. This sexual episode is what is commonly referred to as a "threesome." Ramona was present to assure that (Mrs. Allen) could not refuse Martindale and she knew or should have known that (Mrs.Allen) was succumbing to coercion. Ramona had been a part of planning and orchestrating this event for several months".
Yes, it is incredible. But they are no changing this doctrine because it is for the "spiritually mature enough" and to move best the Word.
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I went to the grocery store sunday with my daughter,we ran into a greasespotter,so I began talking to him of course(I have only known him for almost 30 years)and along came a innies daughter,she is in college
So she talked to my daughter who is also in college.Me,all I got was the "stare".
So nope nothing has changed in cultland.BIG Rasberry PHHTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! see the spittle fly on that one!
Kinder gentler ? To whom? To what? I knoww the dollars that are in my pocket they wantem in thiers!!
Cause they do not care diddly about me.
I was told if I left twi I would be isolated,left to the deevill to do as he would with me,and the kicker I would
be waving my pee pee in Gods face,Kinder gentler,I do not think soo...
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Gillian Rules
Hi DJS,
First of all we are glad you came here. The truth is the healing balm. As much as you have had to deal with, consider those that were thrown out on their A$$, slandered, accused of atrocities such as being a homos (when they were not), devil possessed etc., destroying good family relationships; now that is really hard to deal with, especially before Waydale & GS. There was no way to find out if others went thru the same thing and even if you were really sane. Some committed suidide? So TWI II is responsible for some of the believer's deaths because they denied them "good counsel" in "the multitude of counsellors where there is safety". Instead they trashed their families, their lives, took their homes and alot of other evils. So although it hurt your heart to have to go thru what you did by staying in, it can't compare to what many here have had to go thru. Your leadership is still corrupt even though they may not always show their true colors.
I have to agree with Allen when he said they know the leadership and can't buy it. There will always be very sweet loving people in TWI II, however the Word says you know them by their fruit. If the fruit is putrid (at the root and it still is) then the tree will be contaminated and die.
I still have personal contact with some people in and I can tell you that the they as leaders & those in the upper echelon are not in agreement with your observation that things are better. It's only a matter of time before their barbs come out and their doctrine is still way off. God can work in your fellowships, you can teach the Word, you don't need TWI. You see it's The Body of Christ to which you and I belong, not the Body of TWI II. God had to move on and I cannot tell you the healing that has taken place in peoples lives after they got out from under "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth". When grace is gone, the love is gone & you have legalism and God is not there no matter how many nice people there are in your fellowships. You are still supporting a devilish "root".
Why do you not trust your own judgement and give God the opportunity of showing you as he has most of us here. You probably know more Word in your heart than those that have taken the positions to be "over" you.
So I still see major FEAR in the heart of the letter I was sent. I spent many, many, many years undershepherding this person to GET RID OF FEAR. (sorry not yelling, just making a point). I am pi$$ed that all my work to make her life more peaceful and blessed has gone down the Sthiter. (mispelled on purpose). Those that are responsible are still in charge.
Why not support a fellowship that is on the Word and does have the blessings of God upon it. I'm not suggesting any one group because YOU and your fellowship are a Group of believers fully functional under the leadership of Jesus Christ and he is the one we ultimately want to work for, glorify and bless.
So sorry I have a problem with the people I know that are still in taking any "nice pills". (Again I am not talking about the "leaves" on the tree) If you were to start fellowshipping with believers who left, do you really think for one minute, they would not come down on you. Try it.
And who are they to judge you or anyone else with all their wrong devilish doctrine which led up to error that caused so much heartache. They are still pulling the wool over people's eyes. I spoke to one recently who still thinks they are "God on a stick". Made me want to puke and on top of that they themselves are so FEARFUL by their "controlling" nature that it's detestable to God. They still have to live in a sterile environment & call the shots. That whole group at TWI II in New Knoxville, should leave and go work real jobs and see what life is really about. They think they are still doing God a big service by the junk they do there. They are clueless and living in a time warp no matter how gooey or gushey they get. Ha, they even through Mrs. Wierwille out when it was going to hit their pocketbooks.
I am glad you are here and I wish you the very best that God has to offer. You will find many counsellors here that can help you through absorbing all of this, I know it's alot at first, I just went thru coming here myself but I've been out for a while
love Gillian hugs and xoxoxoxoxo
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dmiller
Excellent post Gillian!
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Catcup
DJS
I know this is a lot to take in at once, so please don't be overwhelmed.
There's a lot you don't know yet about the other side of the story. Please take the time to do a lot of reading on this forum and on others, and begin to piece together the entire picture. Allowing yourself only to consider TWI's side has skewed your perspective to see only what they want you to see.
Happy Reading.
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Gillian Rules
Something else to consider DJS, why have they not at least asked the innies to reach out to those that have left if they are no longe M & A. Apologize for them (under their instruction), not because you want to but because they want to correct a wrong that was done.
It might not fly but why haven't they not even dealt with this.
Another thing, when the gentleman who has a child buried at the cemetary in the Way Woods came to visit the gravesite, why didn't they greet him with open arms, help him deal with his loss. That would have made a great statement to those that are out and M & A. It could have opened a door of utterance.
No they took him to court? Nice, changed, I think not. They are lying to their own people and that stinks.
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bliss
Hey DJS -~ glad you're here.
I am a recent "outie".
I loved and still do love the fellowship I just left 8 months ago.
It is NOT ABOUT THEM.
They are great folks. I even liked my leadership.
ITS ABOUT DOING WHAT IS RIGHT.
I cannot SUPPORT an organization that has caused so much harm.
Remember, even Craig said "all practical error leads to doctrinal error" . Even if you word it the other way,
it still shouts "the doctrine is WRONG!"
So, unless, they have a new "research depatment", (which they don't)
and they review and change doctrine, then what is the point of being with "nice people"?
It's all cloak and dagger to me.
I want to go where GOD is worshipped, not man or even the bible.
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djs
I don't have a lot time right now, I'll have a lot more to say later. I have many deadlines to meet this week. I just wanted to address a few points. I haven't figured out how to do the quote thing yet.
Most of my comments are to Belle but not all.
In reference to "legal stuff" I was referring to LEGALISM. I'm sorry if I missed communicated. No they don't say anything about the law suits. I find my info. out on sites like this and a network of innes who do the same.
Frankly, I don't know many businesses who publize any legal problems willingly. I'm not saying that in total defence of twi but just take look around at the companies you know have lawsuits. Usually, the only reason you know about them is that fact that the press got wind. Even Oprah's legal matters have been made confidential. In all honesty, I would like to find out about lawsuits from them, but from a business stand point after working in major corporations in finance, I understand why they don't. I'm not saying that is their reasoning - I don't know.
In my first letter I don't recall saying that everything was perfect. Let me ask you a question - How have you changed in the last 20 yrs - 10 yrs - 5yrs. You've changed, everyone of us on this site has changed, can no one involved in twi change for the good ????? It takes time we are all doing major healing right now. I know people's lives were ruined I watched it first hand. I've heard of the rapes and pimp daddies - it's now common knowledge for the innes. Why didn't people do something before - it's about timing and knowing when to do something. You can learn this lesson from David. He knew when to hide and when to take it on. Why, because he listened to his heavenly father. It's about timing, wisdom, and common sense. Have you ever wondered what would more could have happened if things went differently. We don't know - it could have been much, much worse.
We all want an apology too. Like most of you I'm not holding my breath either. As far as top leasdership I have seen major changes in the way things have been handled. It has been with love and great respect towards people. I think the reason there are no apologies coming forth is fear of lawsuits. (my opinion) I haven't seen the great domineering attitude of control. I haven't been asked in years if I'm in debt, to see my budget, schedule, or any personal business. We went to adv. sp. we were not asked if we had debt. (It is unclear right now if that is a guideline) I know it is for fel. co-or, wd and wc.
I got in twi in the midwest and really didn't know top leadership. Then I moved into the 250 miles area. ( no, it is not mandatory to make a once a month visit anymore) Only in the last few years have I seen a big difference going there. The teaching are boring but it is very sweet and welcoming there. I have not always felt that way. We used to get the "stare right through you look" - like you weren't there. By staying long weekends there I have gotten to know some of the top leadership and others ( a little) it's a very different tune. They go out of their way to make people feel welcomed. Of course, if you go there to stir up Sxxt you will have security called - any company would protect themselves. I haven't seen the" really tight" security in a long time. But there has been local teenage vandilism as of late. There still needs to be a lot of change but as the saying goes "Rome was not built in a day". I may not stick around, but for now I see positve change - that gives me hope. Also, I'm not stupid I'll know when it's time to leave.
At times, I have not went to fellowships for months because it sucked or gave ABS. For a while we didn't get the tapes or mag because for a long time they sucked. I just threw my money away. I can say they are both getting better not in huge amounts but getting better. (By the way, I never once was confronted about any of it. Nothing was said - like back a few years ago) I just came and went as I pleased. We still have people come and go as they please - it is not demanded to be a faithful, every fellowship believer, or don't come anymore.
We have not been told to contact people. I think most of us are doing it on our own. We know the part we played in all the wrong that was done and seek forgiveness in many cases. Yes, a lot of us still have contact with people who have left. We don't keep it a secret, it's not a big issue anymore, atleast in my experience.
In my personal area only, we have been encouraged, if we can to talk to friends of ours who have left and find out why. The point in doing that is to present it to HQ. Not to bring them back, although we are having a quite a few come back ( even M&A falsely accused of being homo). My fellowship is growing so fast and need to split soon. In other areas, they don't grow at all. You can see a marked difference in leadership, my observance is that these areas still have some legalism somewhere. The seeds you sow will bear fruit - it will be good or bad. Right. After talking to friends in these areas - things are starting to change, slowly but they are. The leadership is losing up. There are areas that are growing so fast they can't keep with it all.
As far as the numbers go, wc wd etc. They have been really low for a while. They are slowly building positive things back in place and the bad name that these programs got are being replaced with good.
By the way, My display name is my name. DJ then S for my last name - I did this so that it would be easy to remember.
We say Christmas, Val Day etc. That was a stupid thing that got started. I even say create - look it up in the dictionary it has many different uses than "God Created"
Do you want to know if the M&A are welcomed and the status removed - Let me ask this ....... What would be the point of you wanting to come back??????? Is it to cause trouble and be antagonistic?????? Then the answer will prob. be a resounding no. If you genuinely want to see what's going on and have a curious but cautioned attitude - I think I can honestly say "YES" you will be welcomed.
How can I dare say that???? I've seen it happen. Some of you will scuff at this - but the one thing you can't dispute are my experiences.
Much love to all - DJS
ps I'd like to know exactly all the polices that lcm put in place that are still today, in cement. Thanks for the Valentine Cookies they look really pretty.
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Raf
Thanks DJS.
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justloafing
djs, I would never call you a liar and I am sure things seem a lot better. They probably are from your perspective. Now lets flash back 26 years when I was involved. A pfal grad.
Our home fellowships were fun. We did the word as best we could and brought new people to twig. Mean while ole vp and lcm were at hq raping our sisters in Christ. Suicide was going on because of our leaders but I thought everything was so Godly from top to bottom. I left in 86 only to find out in 99 what really was going on at twi. I never knew any of it even being in the corps. I had heard rumors of abuse.
Now vp is dead and lcm is gone for ever (IMHO). One thing that still bothers me is the leadership that still is there. It is the same leadership that knew all about the abuses and also helped in those abuses.
I guess my point is.............They can change their tune and try and make it like twi in the olden days but just remember how corrupt it was then.
I do understand what you are saying and it may seem like things are changing but the top leadership are still the rotten apples that made people die and ripped lives apart all in the name of God.
I do like to hear how you now perceive twi now. I believe it to be truthfull and honest. Thank you for comming here and being honest with us.
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Allan
DJS...some good points you made...however..TWI is NOT a business, it is meant to be a CHURCH !
A church that should be promoting things like honesty, integrity, openess, love, etc.. and then leading by example.
The leaderships mentality will not change because they are in a mental fishbowl, out of touch with the real struggle in life.
LCM may have learnt about some of the real world whilst going through his recent predicament, however he still more than likely is carrying his (sexual) baggage around with him.
And as I have repeatedly said before, the 'new' leadership positions at h.q. level speak volumes to me.
"Steady as she goes, full steam ahead" (as the unseen iceberg gets closer)
Actually, when I think about it, TWI has already hit the iceberg and is stern down in the water.
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Catcup
DJS
Thank you for taking the time to compose a response.
However, all you are saying about how things have changed, are the very same ways TWI changed after the Geer splitoff.
Before then, I could go to HQ and get the "stare right through you look." As a matter of fact, At the opening of the WOW Auditorium, Don Wierwille gave me that exact stare through-- like I was a piece of scum on his newly opened building and what the hell was I doing there. You see, after spending a year on staff in 1982-1983, I saw some pretty intense corruption, called a confrontation meeting with two trustee level people and another person and read them the riot act. This was not well received, and I left of my own accord, and prayed for a change.
When the Geer splitoff happened, there was indeed a change. The same, very same changes you speak of. I too spent some time with "top leadership" afterward-- trustee level-- and was assured changes would be made. They fell all over themselves to try to make us feel welcomed and comfortable. Even got a handwritten apology from Don. Craig gushed at the possiblity that my husband would help. Everything seemed hunky dory. My husband and I stayed and helped try to rebuild the ministry, trusting changes would occur.
Yeah, right.
After several years of "sweetness and light," darkness again fell on The Way International.
You are singing the same song I and many others have sung before. And the same old thing always happens. It's a repeating cycle of legalism and license, of squeeze and a slight release, right before the viper clamps down once more, squeezing the life out of its prey.
Why?
It's evil from the root.
You still have the very person the judge felt was knowledgable of and participated in setting Fern Allen up for (ok oldies, edited for you:) "allegdly" getting raped, heading up your organization. Yes, Rosalie Rivenbark. And you have people like Mxrk and Josephine Wxllxce as region coordinators: Mxrk, who threatened death to me, to my family, and to others in my fellowship. That's just a ferinstance.
The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil. Rivenbark is not only one who hearkened to lies, but also originates them. The organization needs to be scrapped from the top down and the bottom up.
You have an organization that you even feel is holding back on admitting its wrongs for fear of legal action.
So they're afraid of..........
JUSTICE?
God requires his men and women to do justice and judgment.
And that poisoned organization quivers in fear at the very thought of having to render true justice to those they have harmed, because it would bankrupt them.
I say let justice and judgment roll down upon The Way International.
Hey, you know the old saying... No justice, no peace. Biblical, too.
You say you are smart enough to know when to leave?
Yeah, so was I, but I still left decades too late, trying to save an organization that simply is not salvageable.
Don't make the same mistake. The only thing worse than spending 20 years in a bad organization is spending 20 years and one more second.
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oldiesman
Rape was one of the allegations that was never proven in court.
That's kinda what is nice about an actual trial ... the prosecution has a chance to prove an allegation, beyond a reasonable doubt.
Until then, the defense is considered innocent, until proven guilty.
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Catcup
OK here it goes...
"After reviewing the evidence, Judge John D. Schmitt rendered the "Decision and Order Entry Granting Partial Summary Judgement" on Oct. 30, 2000. He states:
"There is evidence that Rosalie Rivenbark knew about Craig Martindale's extra marital sexual relationships, as early as 1995. Deposition of L. Craig Martindale, page 123.... There is evidence to indicate that both Rosalie Rivenbark and Ramona Biden played a role in the events leading up to the sexual encounter between Craig Martindale and (Mrs.) Allen. A jury must decide whether the encounter was consensual, or if an assault occurred. If the jury finds that an assault occurred, the same jury might reasonably conclude that defendants engaged in a pattern of corrupt activity, which led to the assault."
Yes, we know the case was settled.
If the defense had thought they had a snowball's chance in hell to disprove these charges, they WOULD NEVER HAVE MADE AN OFFER TO SETTLE.
But it doesn't change what happened Oldies.
And it doesn't change Rosie Lie's involvement or culpability.
And this woman, who "allegedly" participated in not only in helping line up Fillies for der Fuhrer, but also in covering their tracks,
IS STILL THE PRESIDENT OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL.
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Gillian Rules
boy did I have trouble with the fonts. Will try this later. haha
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markomalley
djs,
I am sincerely glad to hear your news about the changes you've observed. As you can tell from the caption under my avatar, I personally am just not interested in that any more. I am, in fact, sort of leaning to the side of the argument advanced by a number of other ex-TWI people, such as Catcup, Rascal, et al.
You want to see if there have been the fundamental changes that you are bragging have happened? Try a little experiment. Go over to the "doctrinal" forum. Starting with the second half of page 3 of a thread called "misquoting jesus," a discussion develops in regard to the 4 crucified with Christ teaching advanced by TWI. The bulk of the remaining posts on that thread are dealing with that subject. Print it out, take it to your twig coordinator (they call them HFC's now, right?), and ask for some assistance in refuting the arguments made in that thread against the four crucified with Christ teaching.
Look at his/her reaction carefully.
If he/she actually sits down with you, goes through the Bible, gets out the interlinear, the lexicons, the concordances, and actually starts to 'work the word' with you, you may be onto something.
If you are sharply reproved...then I'd think about it.
If you so-called 'work the word' by pulling out collateral materials and don't actually go back to the Bible...then I'd think about it.
But if you'd really like to see if there is a legitimate change from the root, that would be a fairly low-risk way to do so.
Of course, if you're not willing to do so, then that, in of itself, is something to examine, as well.
Best to you!
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socks
Thanks djs.
Long ago I said, and would still, it's a free country. If you're happy, be happy. As long as people don't break the law and don't hurt each other, have at it.
-You're right, a lot of companies probably don't adertise their lawsuits, problems, fixes, what went wrong and what's going right to fix the wrong. That doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it "best" . Just because organizations of all types hide stuff and gloss over things doesn't make it right. So if that's the standard the Way's keeping to, it's not a very high one.
Like my example with the car busting down before it's time - this isn't rocket science here, or "Advanced Class" principles, y'know? It's common sense, decency. You'd think that wouldn't be that hard.
I guess I get the idea that if the Way's taking so long to rebuild to basic standards of courtesy, honor and dignity and it's a big accomplishment to treat people decently in some locations, it may be worse off than it appear.
I'm glad you're happy. Knowing nothing about you, what you want out of life or expect, I'd be hard pressed to deny your personal experiences and opinions. They're yours and if you've come by them honestly, more power to you. You certainly don't owe me an explanation but making the comments you have is appreciated.
My feeling is, I'm much happier with the way my life's developed on this route I'm on and if any "innie" didn't like it, I've got a short pier they can hop off of anytime. I guess the same works in reverse. It's nice to see a level of communication that isn't forced on your part (I assume) but is freely given.
Be careful out there.
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I Love Bagpipes
I write this in light of DJS's post.
I left TWI within the last few months; I had been involved for decades. IMO, there is a definite TWI I, TWI II, TWI III. Though I was WOW, in the Corps (though I dropped), and on staff (though I left), I was never "personally" abused,. During all this time I still maintained an ability to think for myself and pour my soul out to God. About six years ago I began journaling, and my life began to change. In the course of journaling stuff came up....suppressed emotions. I began to read LOTS to gain insight and answers. (This is going somewhere.)
During TWI II, the confrontation days. (YUK!), it was hard to read my Bible without feeling like I wasn't good enough. ...so I read other stuff and kept Jer. 29:29 in my thoughts. ("Know the thoughts I think of you, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end.") I went to a believer psychologist about 10 times and the person did help me, even recommended some books. I wanted healing.
Then TWI III....the silence dropped....and it still continues. For the last 3(?), 4(?), 5(?) years there has been little passion. Real life issues are not discussed, but are covered over with scripture and a pretend peace. People are not truly free to express their opinions without fear of being looked upon as not having it together. There is still an "us" and "them" attitude. There is still the attitude of being the true household of God, and those who have left are deceived and outside fellowship with the Father. And in leadership meetings talk still goes on: "How is so-and-so doing?" "Well, they are not ABSing. They don't call me for help so something must be up."
One of the major problems I had was this silence. TWI went from verbal abuse to neglect. All of sudden people are just supposed to move on with their lives like nothing ever happened. There has been no closure. It is like the past never existed, never even acknowledged. From what I observed the pretend peace, the silence, is NOT confined to local leadership. The legalism is confined to the local leadership; some fellowships are open and loving and some are still beating folks to live up to unrelenting standards. People's personal lives are not managed, but the talk (among leadership) and judgemental attitudes still continue.
Here is a quote from a book I read a few years ago by Thomas Friedman entitled "From Beirut to Jerusalem". The context is in light of how modern day Israel dealt with the Holocaust until the Holocaust was resurrected in 1961 at the trial of the Nazi war criminal Adolf Otto Eichmann.
"..In those day we barely learned about the Holocaust in school. The feeling, the whole atmosphere, was that the future must triumph over the past. All of us, parents & kids, tried to cover up what had happened."
Those lines pricked my soul when I read them; I was one of those parents (in light of TWI). Who was it that said something like if the past is not remembered it will be repeated?
Another quote from the same book: "And so...the play went on...Israeli's talking to the world about their 'enlightened' occupation, and then doing anything they had to do, behind closed doors, to keep the Palestinians quiet."
I left because my joy was gone and it was effecting my family. I write now with tears rolling down my cheeks because my joy is back. I have found again my first love. I'm still struggling, but I awake each morning without the hole in my soul.
(PS: I have continued to journal now for 6 years and have seen a psychologist (not a Way believer) for 5 years and I still read a lot. All of that has helped me to come to the place I am now. I don't need the psychologist now. I saw her for my final visit recently.)
All this to say... for some of us, TWI has waited too long to change. I am not convinced there has been real change, heart change. There have been behavioral changes, but have these been made for survival purposes...to keep the system going? Has the system become self serving? Is the system really interested in helping others, in helping people heal emotionally, physically, mentally? If so, the system needs to open its doors wide...but then it might fall apart because of legal issues.
Time for coffee. ;)
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Catcup
And there you have it.
Thank you, Bagpipes.
Coffee? C[_]
And have a cinnamon roll on me @
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dmiller
Perfect.
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Raf
Bagpipes,
Please, allow me.
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Belle
That was awesome, Bagpipes!
I'm so glad you have your joy back and I know how good that feels. I have tears of joy for you running down my cheeks.
It was so scary to even consider leaving and others said over and over how much better their lives were after they left, but it seemed impossible for that to happen to me. I can honestly say my life is 10 kajillion times better than it was when I was involved with TWI.
TWI has perfected the "If we don't talk about it, it never happened" mentality. They sugar coat issues with irrelevant Bible verses and tell people to just "trust God". There's no heart, no joy, no caring, no genuine love left in the heart of TWI. There are a few supporters who are good people, but they are so beaten down and taken advantage of that they can't see the forrest for the trees. It's sad, really.
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Belle
QUESTIONS TO ASK:
1. Do you have a financial statement that shows where all the money goes to? (they should not hesitate to give you a detailed one)
2. Do you feel you are the one true church? (if they say "yes," they are an exclusive group and may teach a false gospel)
3. How much am I expected to give monetarily? (if they say you must tithe or give generous donations regularly, you may end up being exploited financially and made to feel guilty)
4. Can I disagree with the pastor or minister? What happens if I do? (if they say "no," you are being asked to have unquestioned obedience to the authority.)
5. Am I expected to show up for services every week, the Bible studies, and be actively involved in your church programs? (if they say "yes," they may be a high demand group)
6. Do you observe certain Sabbaths, holy days or similar meetings during the year that members are commanded to attend? (if they say "yes," they may be placing members under Old Testament laws which were fulfilled in Christ)
7. Do you have a headquarters with a general pastor that sets the pace for the belief system, distributing material and information to all congregations? (if they say "yes," they are probably authoritarian)
8. Is this leader accountable to anyone over him? (if they say no, there is potential for abuse)
9. Can I find salvation outside your church? (if they say "no," they are exclusive and cultic)
10. Can I ask questions concerning the past sins of the founder of the group, or any past corruption or immorality? (if they say "no," or that the past "should be forgotten," they are probably involved in cover-up and revision of their history)
11. Can I ask questions about Scriptures that disagree with your doctrines? (if they say "no," they are controlling and cultic)
from Here
TWI knows the right answers and that's what they'll tell you, but the reality of the answers speaks louder than their words of b.s.
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themex
Oldiesman:
The sex issue was consider by lCM a VPW a doctrine for the "spiritually mature enough":
"Later in the year, after Martindale himself had come to (Mrs.Allen) in an effort to cause her to capitulate and have sex with him, (Mrs.Allen) went to Ramona for her Christian advice and perspective on the issue as she herself was dreadfully confused and alarmed. Unbeknownst to (Mrs.Allen), Ramona was at this time part of the plan to sexually victimize (Mrs.Allen). When asked by (Mrs.Allen) "how can this be right with God?", Ramona told (Mrs.Allen) that it was right with God. She told her that V.P. Wierwille had told Martindale that his behavior was acceptable and that as the "man of God," Martindale carried enormous stress in running the ministry and that she ((Mrs.)) could help alleviate this stress by allowing Martindale to have sex with her. Having sex with Martindale, Ramona reasoned, was in effect helping God. If Martindale were less stressed, then he could in turn, carry out his God-given duties more effectively. Ramona recounted that Martindale had said that Wierwille had taught him to consider all the women in the kingdom to be his- he was the king".
"Ramona brought (Mrs. Allen) for her first sexual, violation by Martindale which took place in the Way Woods late on the evening of August 6, 1996. This sexual episode is what is commonly referred to as a "threesome." Ramona was present to assure that (Mrs. Allen) could not refuse Martindale and she knew or should have known that (Mrs.Allen) was succumbing to coercion. Ramona had been a part of planning and orchestrating this event for several months".
Yes, it is incredible. But they are no changing this doctrine because it is for the "spiritually mature enough" and to move best the Word.
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks for the coffee!!
(and the joyful tears Belle!!)
Blessings,
BP
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