Interesting question, Eagle... because now that I think about it, I wasn't booted for questioning doctrine. I was booted because I disobeyed my leadership who told me to stay off that nasty internet and stop talking to unbelieving copouts who just wanted to bring the ministry down.
But yes, I saw an immediate response.
One day I was the next best thing to sliced bread: every believer's friend; someone who worked hard and did good work; someone who could teach, lead songs, run children's fellowship, design cards, clean houses, and drive long distances to help others.
The next day I was "mark and avoid". Not worthy of being trusted, talked to, or even walked past. (I actually had someone cross the street and avert their eyes rather than chance speaking to me.) Emails and letters were ignored.
I'm sorry this happened to you "outside" twi, but a zealot is a zealot is a zealot. Doesn't really matter what brand.
Well, of course you can picture the kind of reactions I've had when I crossed back over the Tiber River. I got in contact with an old twig coordinator with whom I was very close -- when he found out that I had "become" Catholic, there was never any contact again.
My wife converted to Catholicism about 6 years ago. She was practically disinherited by her family (very staunch fundamentalists). It took them about 2 years to accept her decision -- and to this day there are frequent jabs at her.
But it is not to be surprised. Most Protestant denominations have anti-Catholicism in the foundational documents that define their faiths:
"... the Pope is the very Antichrist..." Martin Luther, Smalcald Articles Part II Article IV (one of the defining documents of the Lutheran denomination)
"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof, but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God." Westminster Confession, Chap 25 Article 6 (one of the defining documents of the Presbyterian denomination)
"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 26, Article 4
And there are similar sentiments in most other documents defining the various protestant denominations...to say nothing of whole ministries that have a full time job of bashing Catholics (Jack Chick, Bob Jones, etc) [commentary: if these ministries spent their energies trying to convert heathen rather than bashing Catholicism they'd actually be able to do some good...but that's another story altogether].
Anyway, the above is not intended to be a derail, but a statement trying to empathize with my in-laws. With all of the above influences, how could their reactions be otherwise? I'm just thankful that the love for their daughter overcame their hatred of the Church so that they have restored communion with her.
Anyway, the take-away point: I sympathize completely with you...been there and done that in a couple of different fashions. If your friends love you, they'll come around. If they don't come around, they weren't your friends in the first place...
Has anyone had the experience, even recently, of being ignored, cast out, or put down because they may disagree with a few of Wierwille's doctrines?
Its been along time but it happened quite a bit when I first got out. I admit it really pained me at first, now years later if and when it happens it is more a source of amusement---
I dont feel bad if I am being ignorred by the ignorant, cast out by those who are in their own world or put down by those who haven't taken the time to develop themselves and their own ideas. They reveal more of themselves and their own shortcomings than do any damage to me. they do me a favor if they take off and leave me alone.
There are plenty of good people out in the wider world who will accept you for who you are and don't put bizarre guages on you to see if you measure up to them or not. Try them.....
But it is not to be surprised. Most Protestant denominations have anti-Catholicism in the foundational documents that define their faiths:
"... the Pope is the very <b>Antichrist</b>..." Martin Luther, Smalcald Articles Part II Article IV (one of the defining documents of the Lutheran denomination)
"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof, <b>but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition,</b> that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God." Westminster Confession, Chap 25 Article 6 (one of the defining documents of the Presbyterian denomination)
"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is <b>that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition,</b> that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 26, Article 4
It is striking how sloppy these Bible believers sloppily mixed material from the epistle of John with 2 Thessalonians in these creeds, considering that 2 Thess. doesn't actually employ the term "antichrist".
It's certainly possible that the "antichrist" was inferred in 2 Thess., but nevertheless, the fact stands - the writer of 2 Thess. doesn't use (or even know?) that term (which by itself may be sound reason for critical scholars to reconsider the authenticity of material in 2 Thess., because the ommision of "antichrist" there begs the question - was 2 Thess. written at a time before the term "antichrist" entered into currency?)
I have a pet theory that "antichrist" may have been a term coined and appropriated in opposition to the author of "Antithesis" - and originally had nothing to do with any of the Catholic Popes, though it certainly may have come from them. But it's just an entertaining theory...
I think that you probably are viewed as a threat to everything that they have learned to hold sacred....you crossed that invisable line.
I remember well....I remember how srongly I clung to every jot and tiddle.....because I knew that if you allowed doubt to creep in....one little bit...you were in danger.
You will begin that slippery slide down the muddy slope to being in left field...posessed...stiff necked....
It took over 5 years after leaving twi to even begin to look at the possibility that there might be some error in the *truth* I had held to so fiercly for over a decade...all of my adult life.
I know that I felt that if I considered anything other than what I had been taught....that I would prove that the ministry was right...I was a cop out......as long as I didn`t renounce the truth.....in my mind I was STILL a believer and the ministry was simply just mistaken about me.
We are very fragile when it comes to our belief systems apparently....your questions raised, threatens the very fabric of their universe....who they are what they believe how God operates...what is our responsibility?
Who knows though....maybe you have planted some seeds that will germinate at a future date...maybe your information is the first step forged in a Godly designed plan to lead them out of their confusion.
I know that for me...it was many small bits of information from unimpeachable sources that eventually brought me to the place where I could possibly consider going beyond twi teaching.
It is striking how sloppy these Bible believers sloppily mixed material from the epistle of John with 2 Thessalonians in these creeds, considering that 2 Thess. doesn't actually employ the term "antichrist".
It's certainly possible that the "antichrist" was inferred in 2 Thess., but nevertheless, the fact stands - the writer of 2 Thess. doesn't use (or even know?) that term (which by itself may be sound reason for critical scholars to reconsider the authenticity of material in 2 Thess., because the ommision of "antichrist" there begs the question - was 2 Thess. written at a time before the term "antichrist" entered into currency?)
I have a pet theory that "antichrist" may have been a term coined and appropriated in opposition to the author of "Antithesis" - and originally had nothing to do with any of the Catholic Popes, though it certainly may have come from them. But it's just an entertaining theory...
Danny
As always an interesting point Danny. What is more interesting is that the four usages of the word antichristos (opposition to Christ) is clearly a reference to those that deny the incarnation of Christ:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1Jo4:3) -- For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2Jo7). You're more of an expert on this than I, but weren't these verses a refutiation of certain gnostic sects which believed that Jesus was merely a phantasm?
Particularly curious since both the Apostle's Creed and the Creed of Constantinople-Nicea (written by the Church) contain affirmations of the incarnation...
A lot of people think that VPW was the teacher of the teachers and father in the Word "The man of God of ower day and time". But he was not. He did good things and bad things, he is death, some of the splinters are making a cult around VPW and that is against the Word.
Obviously, I am not the only one. The funny thing is that I defended VPW as a person but not his doctrine. It still was not good enough.
It was interesting the parallel TWI had with a few major denominations in this respect. I had forgotten how I had been raised as an orthodox Roman Catholic, actually believing Protestants (those professing Christ but not the Roman Catholic Church) were all going to hell. I could not talk to or even date a non-Catholic girl in my high school years.
Perhaps I have changed. I sure did not marry a Catholic but a Methodist, who in turn left her church and we attend a United Brethren denomination. This church makes fun of no one.
We like it. Everybody respects the pastor but they sure don't think he is the MOGFODAT. He is called by his first name and tries to greet as many people as possible. Nobody feels threatened and everyone feels welcome. The church is growing.
When I disassociated myself from twi partially because of doctrinal differences, the local folks from my branch were told not to have any contact with me...and they didn't.
I agree with Raf...they were not really friends to begin with...I never looked back.
Today, the people in my life have never even heard of twi...with the exception of my lady...
With the exception of GS and LES, I have come to find disassociating myself from those who disassociated themselves from us due to differences in Wierwillinian doctrines. It is in fact easier to fellowship with those who never heard of TWI.
GS and LES people are normal, at least from our perspective. Unless, of course, Paw and Raf begin demanding of me a double tithe and declare that if I stop posting I'll be a Wierwillian by midnight.
You're more of an expert on this than I, but weren't these verses a refutiation of certain gnostic sects which believed that Jesus was merely a phantasm?
I can't say that people have given me a hard time when I differed with what VPW taught. But I remember early on after I left TWI and linked up with a "splinter group." of which I later became leader, I received a lot flack when I told people at that at fellowship, and especially during teachings I didn't want to hear VPWs name used, in a "Doctor once said...." type of way. I told them New people wouldn't know who he was, so it wouldn't carry any weight with them, and I want to see it from the word, never use VPW's statments to prove your teaching, prove it from the word. Its amazing how many people were upset by that.
So far, no one has objected to my pov, at least to my face.
But I agree, it would be a big turnoff at teachings for me, and new people have no clue who VPW is.
I believe at least for myself, that I need to challenge everything I formerly believed, and get another perspective. If what I learned in TWI is true, I will find it again, corroborated by other sources.
But To hear VPW's name invoked, or his phrases quoted in a teaching, is like fingernails on a blackboard for me. My husband knows this, and believes as I do, that what we teach and believe needs to be both constructed and documented from sources outside TWI. What my husband teaches, he documents in sources other than The American Christian Press.
So far, he does his best in our home fellowship to avoid certain phrases, or learn to drop TWI vocabulary as much as possible. From time to time he will slip into an old phrase (habits are hard to break) and we talk about it afterwards, or sometimes even stop right there and discuss it in the meeting. That's another thing different that we do in our own fellowship: Our format is very unlike the "twig" we are all used to where no one interrupts or is allowed to ask a question during the teaching. We have a dialogue format to our fellowship. Anyone at any time can ask a question or answer one, add to what is being said, or question it for that matter.
You could never do that in TWI, because you were never allowed to question, period. But I believe that it takes more patience and love and humility, all of which categories TWI was sorely lacking in, to have an actual dialogue with people.
And so far, no one has objected. But then again, half of our folks never knew TWI.
But I guarantee you, that anyone who walks away from you or excommunicates you because you don't care for VPW and his teachings, has no clue what love is anyway so you are better off without them in your life. Anyone who wants to give me an ultimatum about accepting VPW as TMOG who gave me light and life, can "kiss the kitty."
I also did not like the phrase "Father In The Word". That one really, really bothered me all the time I was with TWI. And I agree the title "Doctor" bothered me when he was quoted, especially as a substitute for the Bible.
In the latter years of LCM's reign of terror and the first couple of years of TWI III, a Corps buddy of mine, (raised by LCM, though), admitted to me that three websites stood out as "marked", so to speak, and banned. The internet was banned in general, he said, but a lot of Corps were "allowed" to use it, but not visit Waydale, (later then Greasespot), Living Epistles, and Roberge's site. The reasons for not being allowed to see Waydale and Greasespot were obvious (so much negative press), Roberge's site exposed lawsuits and other legal matters against TWI, and finally Raf's site, which pretty much only went after the doctrinal side. But for some reason, that REALLY got to them. At least the ones who followed Wierwille, then Martindale, then if they left, some Wierwille splinter group.
I suppose the friends that split away from me over Wierwille may feel the same way about Raf. I think. Not sure. He challenges the Blue book in a lot of places, for crying out loud. To these people, it is the crime of the century, somewhere ranking near the unforgivable sin.
No, no...not the Blue Book!
Raf, if you're reading this, would it really bother you that people thought you were "evil" for disagreeing in some places on the Blue Book with Wierwille? I mean, it's past midnight and you are still posting your disagreements with the Blue Book and some other PFAL stuff. I now really believe some people I know cringe over it. Almost like THEY ARE possessed.
When I first left, the story is much the same as others have told here.
No one was to have contact with me because I had told one person that I had
a copy of the Overview tapes by JAL. They ratted me out to leadership here, and
just because I had possession of those tapes, made me persona-non-grata.
When I met any of twi on the street here in town, they basically crossed to the other side so as not to talk to me, or acknowledge me. One lady did talk to me about the tapes, came to the house to listen to them (even after being *warned* by local leadership NOT to do so), and they started treating her the same as I.
That was about 15 or so years ago. There are to my knowledge (maybe)
5 folks left here from twi, and the *old days* ---
Which by then was twi2.
I rarely see them, but from time to time I do and guess what --- ??
Two of them are involved in a Baptist church, one in an Assembly of God church, the others in other denominations. I see some of them from time to time (at the mall, or wherever), and the reception I get is still decidedly *cool* since I bucked the system back whenever --
Isn`t it silly Dave? I have been given a hard time by a few folks for my spouse not supporting craig with the loyalty oath....Even though now out.....They seemed to feel that they were more spiritual since they stayed and fought for the ministry......even though in hind sight we can see that he was a psychotic lunatic way before he wrote that letter.......and admitting that there was nothing that could be done to save the ministry....lol
Actually, since I am speaking out more forcefully here out of sheer frustration, I can honestly say I expect it from current TWI members. If they say anything to me, I can just tell them to Shut UP and move on. Nothing I can do for them.
What bothered me were the others that left TWI and joined other groups hanging to Wierwille's every word from the past. And even then, there were the Geerites who won't accept criticism of him either. I have to wonder if anyone should even bother joining a splinter group like CFF, CES, or Vince Finnegan's group or any other group and just go back to church as we did. Ignoring these groups seems to me to help to avoid these kinds of people who just CANNOT BE CIVIL OR KIND with someone not involved with their group.
Have to say the more I think about it the angrier I get. You can bet that the ones who cut off from me over this will surely get their wish and never hear from me again. My God, a lot of these people cannot handle a simple diversion from the Blue Book no matter how accurate the information portrayed from the Bible against some of it is.
I can handle those that disagree with me here...no problem here. They just disagree and we move on to the next topic and talk about that. I don't mind disagreement. I mind being treated as a "heathen", that's what I mind.
Well, now every one knows how upset I am over this. Sorry if I sound over the edge.
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TheHighWay
Interesting question, Eagle... because now that I think about it, I wasn't booted for questioning doctrine. I was booted because I disobeyed my leadership who told me to stay off that nasty internet and stop talking to unbelieving copouts who just wanted to bring the ministry down.
But yes, I saw an immediate response.
One day I was the next best thing to sliced bread: every believer's friend; someone who worked hard and did good work; someone who could teach, lead songs, run children's fellowship, design cards, clean houses, and drive long distances to help others.
The next day I was "mark and avoid". Not worthy of being trusted, talked to, or even walked past. (I actually had someone cross the street and avert their eyes rather than chance speaking to me.) Emails and letters were ignored.
I'm sorry this happened to you "outside" twi, but a zealot is a zealot is a zealot. Doesn't really matter what brand.
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markomalley
Well, of course you can picture the kind of reactions I've had when I crossed back over the Tiber River. I got in contact with an old twig coordinator with whom I was very close -- when he found out that I had "become" Catholic, there was never any contact again.
My wife converted to Catholicism about 6 years ago. She was practically disinherited by her family (very staunch fundamentalists). It took them about 2 years to accept her decision -- and to this day there are frequent jabs at her.
But it is not to be surprised. Most Protestant denominations have anti-Catholicism in the foundational documents that define their faiths:
"... the Pope is the very Antichrist..." Martin Luther, Smalcald Articles Part II Article IV (one of the defining documents of the Lutheran denomination)
"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof, but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God." Westminster Confession, Chap 25 Article 6 (one of the defining documents of the Presbyterian denomination)
"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 26, Article 4
And there are similar sentiments in most other documents defining the various protestant denominations...to say nothing of whole ministries that have a full time job of bashing Catholics (Jack Chick, Bob Jones, etc) [commentary: if these ministries spent their energies trying to convert heathen rather than bashing Catholicism they'd actually be able to do some good...but that's another story altogether].
Anyway, the above is not intended to be a derail, but a statement trying to empathize with my in-laws. With all of the above influences, how could their reactions be otherwise? I'm just thankful that the love for their daughter overcame their hatred of the Church so that they have restored communion with her.
Anyway, the take-away point: I sympathize completely with you...been there and done that in a couple of different fashions. If your friends love you, they'll come around. If they don't come around, they weren't your friends in the first place...
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excathedra
the pope is an old man and an &$*#(*
much like veepee was i guess
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Raf
If I were to lose a friend due to my lack of devotion to VPW, I would rejoice in the knowledge that a false and phony friend was exposed.
As it stands, I did not lose any friends for that reason, and I know that I chose my friends wisely. :)
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mstar1
Its been along time but it happened quite a bit when I first got out. I admit it really pained me at first, now years later if and when it happens it is more a source of amusement---
I dont feel bad if I am being ignorred by the ignorant, cast out by those who are in their own world or put down by those who haven't taken the time to develop themselves and their own ideas. They reveal more of themselves and their own shortcomings than do any damage to me. they do me a favor if they take off and leave me alone.
There are plenty of good people out in the wider world who will accept you for who you are and don't put bizarre guages on you to see if you measure up to them or not. Try them.....
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markomalley
Thank you excathedra...
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TheInvisibleDan
It is striking how sloppy these Bible believers sloppily mixed material from the epistle of John with 2 Thessalonians in these creeds, considering that 2 Thess. doesn't actually employ the term "antichrist".
It's certainly possible that the "antichrist" was inferred in 2 Thess., but nevertheless, the fact stands - the writer of 2 Thess. doesn't use (or even know?) that term (which by itself may be sound reason for critical scholars to reconsider the authenticity of material in 2 Thess., because the ommision of "antichrist" there begs the question - was 2 Thess. written at a time before the term "antichrist" entered into currency?)
I have a pet theory that "antichrist" may have been a term coined and appropriated in opposition to the author of "Antithesis" - and originally had nothing to do with any of the Catholic Popes, though it certainly may have come from them. But it's just an entertaining theory...
Danny
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rascal
Eagle, I am sorry.
I think that you probably are viewed as a threat to everything that they have learned to hold sacred....you crossed that invisable line.
I remember well....I remember how srongly I clung to every jot and tiddle.....because I knew that if you allowed doubt to creep in....one little bit...you were in danger.
You will begin that slippery slide down the muddy slope to being in left field...posessed...stiff necked....
It took over 5 years after leaving twi to even begin to look at the possibility that there might be some error in the *truth* I had held to so fiercly for over a decade...all of my adult life.
I know that I felt that if I considered anything other than what I had been taught....that I would prove that the ministry was right...I was a cop out......as long as I didn`t renounce the truth.....in my mind I was STILL a believer and the ministry was simply just mistaken about me.
We are very fragile when it comes to our belief systems apparently....your questions raised, threatens the very fabric of their universe....who they are what they believe how God operates...what is our responsibility?
Who knows though....maybe you have planted some seeds that will germinate at a future date...maybe your information is the first step forged in a Godly designed plan to lead them out of their confusion.
I know that for me...it was many small bits of information from unimpeachable sources that eventually brought me to the place where I could possibly consider going beyond twi teaching.
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markomalley
As always an interesting point Danny. What is more interesting is that the four usages of the word antichristos (opposition to Christ) is clearly a reference to those that deny the incarnation of Christ:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1Jo4:3) -- For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2Jo7). You're more of an expert on this than I, but weren't these verses a refutiation of certain gnostic sects which believed that Jesus was merely a phantasm?
Particularly curious since both the Apostle's Creed and the Creed of Constantinople-Nicea (written by the Church) contain affirmations of the incarnation...
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
and being old is a sin?
i like it
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justloafing
Does that make us an &$*#(* ?
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themex
A lot of people think that VPW was the teacher of the teachers and father in the Word "The man of God of ower day and time". But he was not. He did good things and bad things, he is death, some of the splinters are making a cult around VPW and that is against the Word.
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WordWolf
I like this one so much I'm going to fix the spellings...
Plus, it bears repeating.
'themex':
"A lot of people think that VPW was The Teacher of The Teachers,
and Father in The Word- "The Man of God of Our Day and Time".
But, he was not.
He did good things and bad things.
He is dead.
Some of the splinters are making a cult around VPW and that is against the Word."
By the way, themex,
we formed the acronym
"MOGFOT" and the acronym "MOGFODAT"
on the phrases
"Man of God For Our Time" and "Man of God For Our Day And Time"
based on that error.
Just thought you'd like to know.
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themex
Again Thank you WordWolf!
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Eagle
Obviously, I am not the only one. The funny thing is that I defended VPW as a person but not his doctrine. It still was not good enough.
It was interesting the parallel TWI had with a few major denominations in this respect. I had forgotten how I had been raised as an orthodox Roman Catholic, actually believing Protestants (those professing Christ but not the Roman Catholic Church) were all going to hell. I could not talk to or even date a non-Catholic girl in my high school years.
Perhaps I have changed. I sure did not marry a Catholic but a Methodist, who in turn left her church and we attend a United Brethren denomination. This church makes fun of no one.
We like it. Everybody respects the pastor but they sure don't think he is the MOGFODAT. He is called by his first name and tries to greet as many people as possible. Nobody feels threatened and everyone feels welcome. The church is growing.
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GrouchoMarxJr
When I disassociated myself from twi partially because of doctrinal differences, the local folks from my branch were told not to have any contact with me...and they didn't.
I agree with Raf...they were not really friends to begin with...I never looked back.
Today, the people in my life have never even heard of twi...with the exception of my lady...
We like it that way.
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Eagle
With the exception of GS and LES, I have come to find disassociating myself from those who disassociated themselves from us due to differences in Wierwillinian doctrines. It is in fact easier to fellowship with those who never heard of TWI.
GS and LES people are normal, at least from our perspective. Unless, of course, Paw and Raf begin demanding of me a double tithe and declare that if I stop posting I'll be a Wierwillian by midnight.
Eagle
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TheInvisibleDan
Mark,
It sure does come across that way.
(okay, my derailing done - sorry).
Danny
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Keith
I can't say that people have given me a hard time when I differed with what VPW taught. But I remember early on after I left TWI and linked up with a "splinter group." of which I later became leader, I received a lot flack when I told people at that at fellowship, and especially during teachings I didn't want to hear VPWs name used, in a "Doctor once said...." type of way. I told them New people wouldn't know who he was, so it wouldn't carry any weight with them, and I want to see it from the word, never use VPW's statments to prove your teaching, prove it from the word. Its amazing how many people were upset by that.
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Catcup
I agree also with that point of view.
So far, no one has objected to my pov, at least to my face.
But I agree, it would be a big turnoff at teachings for me, and new people have no clue who VPW is.
I believe at least for myself, that I need to challenge everything I formerly believed, and get another perspective. If what I learned in TWI is true, I will find it again, corroborated by other sources.
But To hear VPW's name invoked, or his phrases quoted in a teaching, is like fingernails on a blackboard for me. My husband knows this, and believes as I do, that what we teach and believe needs to be both constructed and documented from sources outside TWI. What my husband teaches, he documents in sources other than The American Christian Press.
So far, he does his best in our home fellowship to avoid certain phrases, or learn to drop TWI vocabulary as much as possible. From time to time he will slip into an old phrase (habits are hard to break) and we talk about it afterwards, or sometimes even stop right there and discuss it in the meeting. That's another thing different that we do in our own fellowship: Our format is very unlike the "twig" we are all used to where no one interrupts or is allowed to ask a question during the teaching. We have a dialogue format to our fellowship. Anyone at any time can ask a question or answer one, add to what is being said, or question it for that matter.
You could never do that in TWI, because you were never allowed to question, period. But I believe that it takes more patience and love and humility, all of which categories TWI was sorely lacking in, to have an actual dialogue with people.
And so far, no one has objected. But then again, half of our folks never knew TWI.
But I guarantee you, that anyone who walks away from you or excommunicates you because you don't care for VPW and his teachings, has no clue what love is anyway so you are better off without them in your life. Anyone who wants to give me an ultimatum about accepting VPW as TMOG who gave me light and life, can "kiss the kitty."
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Eagle
I also did not like the phrase "Father In The Word". That one really, really bothered me all the time I was with TWI. And I agree the title "Doctor" bothered me when he was quoted, especially as a substitute for the Bible.
In the latter years of LCM's reign of terror and the first couple of years of TWI III, a Corps buddy of mine, (raised by LCM, though), admitted to me that three websites stood out as "marked", so to speak, and banned. The internet was banned in general, he said, but a lot of Corps were "allowed" to use it, but not visit Waydale, (later then Greasespot), Living Epistles, and Roberge's site. The reasons for not being allowed to see Waydale and Greasespot were obvious (so much negative press), Roberge's site exposed lawsuits and other legal matters against TWI, and finally Raf's site, which pretty much only went after the doctrinal side. But for some reason, that REALLY got to them. At least the ones who followed Wierwille, then Martindale, then if they left, some Wierwille splinter group.
I suppose the friends that split away from me over Wierwille may feel the same way about Raf. I think. Not sure. He challenges the Blue book in a lot of places, for crying out loud. To these people, it is the crime of the century, somewhere ranking near the unforgivable sin.
No, no...not the Blue Book!
Raf, if you're reading this, would it really bother you that people thought you were "evil" for disagreeing in some places on the Blue Book with Wierwille? I mean, it's past midnight and you are still posting your disagreements with the Blue Book and some other PFAL stuff. I now really believe some people I know cringe over it. Almost like THEY ARE possessed.
Eagle
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dmiller
When I first left, the story is much the same as others have told here.
No one was to have contact with me because I had told one person that I had
a copy of the Overview tapes by JAL. They ratted me out to leadership here, and
just because I had possession of those tapes, made me persona-non-grata.
When I met any of twi on the street here in town, they basically crossed to the other side so as not to talk to me, or acknowledge me. One lady did talk to me about the tapes, came to the house to listen to them (even after being *warned* by local leadership NOT to do so), and they started treating her the same as I.
That was about 15 or so years ago. There are to my knowledge (maybe)
5 folks left here from twi, and the *old days* ---
Which by then was twi2.
I rarely see them, but from time to time I do and guess what --- ??
Two of them are involved in a Baptist church, one in an Assembly of God church, the others in other denominations. I see some of them from time to time (at the mall, or wherever), and the reception I get is still decidedly *cool* since I bucked the system back whenever --
Even though they are out, and I am out --
old feelings die hard (or something like that).
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rascal
Isn`t it silly Dave? I have been given a hard time by a few folks for my spouse not supporting craig with the loyalty oath....Even though now out.....They seemed to feel that they were more spiritual since they stayed and fought for the ministry......even though in hind sight we can see that he was a psychotic lunatic way before he wrote that letter.......and admitting that there was nothing that could be done to save the ministry....lol
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Eagle
Actually, since I am speaking out more forcefully here out of sheer frustration, I can honestly say I expect it from current TWI members. If they say anything to me, I can just tell them to Shut UP and move on. Nothing I can do for them.
What bothered me were the others that left TWI and joined other groups hanging to Wierwille's every word from the past. And even then, there were the Geerites who won't accept criticism of him either. I have to wonder if anyone should even bother joining a splinter group like CFF, CES, or Vince Finnegan's group or any other group and just go back to church as we did. Ignoring these groups seems to me to help to avoid these kinds of people who just CANNOT BE CIVIL OR KIND with someone not involved with their group.
Have to say the more I think about it the angrier I get. You can bet that the ones who cut off from me over this will surely get their wish and never hear from me again. My God, a lot of these people cannot handle a simple diversion from the Blue Book no matter how accurate the information portrayed from the Bible against some of it is.
I can handle those that disagree with me here...no problem here. They just disagree and we move on to the next topic and talk about that. I don't mind disagreement. I mind being treated as a "heathen", that's what I mind.
Well, now every one knows how upset I am over this. Sorry if I sound over the edge.
Eagle
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