There is a difference between declaring a debt to be a bad debt that isn't worth trying to collect and forgiving a debt. There is a similar difference between deciding not to seek punishment or restitution for an offense and forgiving the offense.
It is frequently better for the one wronged to decide not to pursue a matter or to harbor and possibly be consumed by ill feelings about it. One can make such a decision without forgiving the wrongdoer or the wrong action.
Excathedra posted this quote earlier:
My position on "forgiveness" is that the last step in true recovery is renunciation of the Perpetrator's Holy Mantra, that pernicious cliché which commands: "If you ever hope to truly heal, first you must forgive!" That living lie has derailed more victims from the path to salvation than all the lies of their tortured childhood combined. For the abused child (of whatever age), forgiveness of the abuser is a choice, *never* an obligation. Because when it comes to abuse of human beings, the "rights" always belong to the *wronged.*
I agree. No one has the obligation to forgive anyone of anything and the vile notion that one must forgive in order to truly heal has caused no end of hardship and heartache to people who have been wronged by others. Forgiveness is always a choice. It may very well be the right choice, but if appropriate conditions are not met, refusal to forgive may very well be a better choice. Withholding forgiveness does not imply harboring of resentment or hatred, or failure to move on in life.
I agree with excathedra and sirguess on this point (as well as others, but for the purpose of this post . . . ): this may be a question of semantics. The definition I'm working with is this one, from the dictionary:
forgive: stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw or mistake.
If that's the definition, then I don't see the distinction you're making between "deciding not to seek punishment," if the person making that decision is at peace with it, and "forgiving the offense." Again, this may be semantics. And, furthermore, I think it's probably possible for a person to forgive, and still seek punishment (or, maybe more accurately, restitution). I'm hedging a little, because I can't climb into people's minds to know their thoughts and feelings, or all aspects of what motivates them.
Anyway, the thing that put me off to that quote (other than that the first sentence seems twisted, although I can't precisely explain why it feels that way to me) is that the author attributes the "command" (I think it's a mischaracterization to even call it a "command") to perpetrators only. In other words, in that particular snippet, he doesn't allow for a caring person (NOT a perpetrator) to hold the position that forgiveness is in the interest of the abused, not the abuser. And not to impose it on anyone, but to help someone out of his misery, if one cares enough about the other to want him to find something better in life.
I might be coming at this from an entirely different angle, but as I see it, if I release myself from the offense (and the offender), it strips the offender of his power. I'm out of his reach, beyond his sphere of influence. He's alone on the dance floor, unless he finds another partner, because I'm sitting this one out. (If only it were that simple, right? Oh, how I wish it were.)
Another thing that bothers me about the quote is his certainty. Is he really that confident that he knows the course that "true" (as opposed to what?) healing might take, enough to know with certainty what the LAST step might be? "Living lie"? Then what to make of all the testimonies from people who found their own redemption in forgiveness?
Also, the reason I question the writer's motives for saying what he said is that it's hard to deny that an entire industry exists to exploit and perpetuate psychological pain for the purpose of advancing itself. It's to the benefit of certain religious groups, leaders, self-help gurus, and others, to keep people in anger, shame, denial, and a host of other negative emotions in order to justify their own existence. And to get rich. Then again, maybe the fellow who wrote that is thoroughly altruistic. I wouldn't know.
I agree that no one is obligated to forgive. And I also agree (if you're even saying this) that anger (a natural, and, I would say, healthy, response to betrayal) can be a force for social good, if it changes the system that perpetuates the abuse.
Anyway, I sure don't know all the ins and outs of forgiveness. I mean, what's the goal? If it's to live a happy, healthy, productive life, and forgiveness can help get you there, what's the downside?
Just a few thoughts to add to the thread. For what it's worth.
Under what condition is "refusal to forgive . . . a better choice"? Just wondering where you're going with this.
Take care, Long Gone. Hope you enjoyed your holidays.
To excathedra: I wasn't sure how to read that "thanks, laleo." You did put that quote up there for discussion, right? My comments are general. Not specifically to you. I wasn't then or now making any recommendations about how YOU should feel, think, or proceed. Just saying how I would. With caution. (Which is how I proceed with most anything, come to think of it.)
Let me be clear here, lest you think that the starting quote is a cursory glance over the subject at hand. I posted a couple of paragraphs from one chapter in this book. I did my best to pick the words that best described what I believed was the central thougth of the matter. Although the book is calledWhat's So Amazing About Grace? , It actually focuses quite a bit on forgiveness as well. There are many many examples of real-life situations as well. In my opinion it is a book worth the read. The author handles forgiveness and grace as if they are mirrors of each other ( at least in my opinion.) There are plenty of scripture references and explanations.
Forgiveness and punishment - well I can see how these two can be separate. In fact I think that knowing that someone will recieve their ultimate judgement and punishment - if you will - from God, makes it that much easier to forgive. I don't have to be the one who does the punishing. I get to "hurl away" that act and the feelings that keep me wanting to do so.
We are instructed to pray for our enemies. We are instructed to not answer evil with evil. We are instructed not to rejoice in iniquity. IMHO i believe that God has given us many different instructions to lead us to the conclusion of forgiveness.
I'm not following you, doojable. Are you saying you want our comments to be confined to what is in the opening post? Like, do you just want to discuss the book?
I get to "hurl away" that act and the feelings that keep me wanting to do so.
nice way to put it
to add...
depending on the depth and devastation of the crime
this can actually deliver a shock to the body, to our life
it took over 20 years for me to forgive the man who beat and broke my mother in front of me and a crowd of people in broad daylight
at the lowest point, it was like i was being literally being turned inside out by this long hissing wrenching sobbing exhale from hell...as i was driving alone along the highway over 20 years later
but it was quite a pivotal moment in my life
and there is definately a synchronicity of good events that continue to cascade around the relationships surrounding the people involved, more than anything
but...im also kind of a freak
ive been through a lot more crap than most people i know
but ...i'll agree more than anyone...its all easier said than done
anyway, reminded me of the "hurling away" you mentioned, dooj
and how we emanate "ripples" with everything we say or do
and how the shape of our intent, like a parent, is the very first shaper of the character of those ripples that follow...which are then, of course, subject to whatever forces they bounce off and collide and mingle with...yada yada
but the point is
there is a hurling
which can be summed up as our behaviour
and how much we really do effect the world around us
I have no intiention of limiting this discussion in any way. it just became clear to me that the quote I started with was not as complete as i would have liked it to be -nor can it be because I don't want to write the whole book down.
As a matter of fact I have competely agreed with most of the comments made on this thread. I especially have enjoyed your posts. I realize that since so many people are so tired of the subject that there are a lot of opinions out there that aren't being heard.
I think I just wanted to weigh in and spell out again that I don't believe that the scriptures tell us we have to embrace our abusers. I got the feeling that perhaps the parts of the book I quoted left that point vague. As Mark pointed out, there are a lot of people out there that might read this thread that have been through h&!! with TWI. I in no way want to add to their hurt or pain.
I guess that in trying to make myself clear I muddied things up a little. - Hope I just cleared it all up.
this discussion hasn't had any name-calling or badgering - so i'm enjoying the discussion.
Laleo, I see forgiveness as declaring a debt or offense null and void, something like a legal pardon. I think that it is frequently beneficial to continue to hold the perpetrator accountable for both the wrong and consequences of it, but to simply decide that further attempts to settle the account would be pointless or even counterproductive. Some people might call that forgiveness. I wouldn't.
Sirguessalot - I too had to work long and hard to forgive:
My mother died when I was eight.
My father was distant.
My step-mother was abusive and hated us - or at least that's what we thought. We later found out that her father died while in prison for killing her mother. She inherited the same predisposition for craziness and passed it on to my half brother.
She died wanting to ask for forgiveness (years later when I was in my 30's) but was told not to bother.
You know, now that I have worked through it I feel a bit sorry for her - she wanted to repent and seek forgiveness - but she probably felt denied. She died a very painful death from colon cancer.
I still hate what she did to my brothers and I. I still can't quite call her son with my father my brother - I have to add the "half." But I have forgiven her - it seems only right.
I also had to work to forgive my Dad. He watched as a lot of this went on. he alway just wanted "peace." He took way too long to leave her because he wouldn't leave her unless he could get the RC church to deem his marriage "null." It just took him too long to stand up for us. But today we talk and he is forgiven - and yes he asked - although I have to be honest and say that I had forgiven him before he asked.
As I understand things right now: (and this can change as I learn more.)
The person wronged is suppose to confront the perpetrator ( no one else) for his offense. (Others are brought in after the perp doesn't repent.)
Upon hearing the offense (or sometime later) the wrong-doer is supposed to repent and ask for forgiveness.
That's at least one scenario. That's also a "best-case" scenario and doesn't address "on point" the offenses that many have posted on this site.
To those who read this topic and get angry thinking that I am somehow not sensitive to your situation, I apologize and ask forgiveness. I have meant you no harm. I certainly hope that when we meet in chat or other forums that we can meet as friends (as much as possible considering we really don't get to meet.)
Speaking pesonally, I find that when I am strugggling with forgiveness is when I make myself a victim. I concentrate on what someone did to ME. What someone said to ME. How they ignored ME.
I am like a dog licking its wounds in the middle of a great highway - because fo everyone else life goes on and they have their own hurts they are dealing with.
Once I let go of that and stop looking at how I was wronged I am able to look around and see that others have it much worst than I.
I lost a mom young - but I wasn't an orphan. I wasn't raised in a wartorn country and my children weren't barracaded in their school by terrorists.
This doesn't mean that I forget my life but I insist on making it better for others like my kids.
Doesn't the Bible say something about God giving us beauty for ashes? We have got to be willing to trade in the ashes.
Speaking pesonally, I find that when I am strugggling with forgiveness is when I make myself a victim. I concentrate on what someone did to ME. What someone said to ME. How they ignored ME.
I am like a dog licking its wounds in the middle of a great highway - because fo everyone else life goes on and they have their own hurts they are dealing with.
I think that sums it up as well as anything said so far!
I think much of what requires forgiveness is a follower/type emotion or – said another way – it is not an “originator” type of emotion. It exists because something else created the need for it. But what could create a need for forgiveness and why?
The Self Inflicted Need for Forgiveness. (There are other needs for forgiveness which Sirguess and others have pointed out quite well. I am speaking about the damage which we do and why).
The Occurrence:
Judgment – to condemnation - creates a need for forgiveness – every time it happens.
I usually get upset when: I am trying to justify my thoughts and processes. (This is why I feel the urge not to listen to someone else and simply say “Ah huh… Ah huh…” nodding my head in an affirmative fashion while I formulate what I am going to say next - as soon as they take a breath!! LOL)
The Scramble:
It takes a lot of mental work for your “self” to convince you (and the other person - possibly) that WHAT you are thinking and feeling is “true”. The self walls itself in for safety during perceived attacks. It might be something as slight as not being understood or judged “not justified” in the other person's eyes. At this juncture, all that may be needed is a sigh or roll of the eyes from the other person - or some feeling - and then we KNOW that we have already been judged - before we have even had our day in court...
This further bolsters the self perception that our judgment is "true" or at the least we were wronged. Our minds work hard to make/form or create the thoughts which seem so VERY true – to our “self”.
The Battle and Attachment of Judgment:
The next action the “self” “must” take is defensive action – at a minimum. Or all-out-attack if necessary. ANYTHING which does not support the myth that the self is creating – becomes an enemy (the myth being: that the self is “true” and “right” and “justified”). At this point… any anger becomes justified and any attack becomes righteously warranted very easily. Why? Because of the judgment to condemnation.
The Realization that So Often Never Occurs:
Once we actually come to grips with the fact that we likely were wronged by nobody - except our own “self” in such instances – means that we NOW have an opportunity to shift the “guilt” from the “other” party to our own “self”. This does not usually go over too well with the self – like the proverbial lead balloon. Even so, usually only a glimpse of this reality and decent people MAY understand they have assigned the blame to an innocent party. This kind of mis-appropriation of judgment needs to be released and the “offending” party needs to be set free. Such an action would be forgiveness for reason and realization of innocence – Unfortunately, this often never occurs and forgiveness goes wanting – when it seems desperately deserved.
Suppose the Realization Does Occur:
Suppose we “see the light” and forgive the innocent party. Then what? What do we do when the guilt shifts and comes home to roost upon the “self”… the guilt will keep looking for a place because the self is a tireless and tyranical master for it will REQUIRE that SOMEBODY pay for this wrong!!!!…. Who is it going to be? Society? The Republicans? The Democrats? Women are fundamentally Stupid? Men are simply Neanderthals? The Devil (ask Flip Wilson about that one LOL) – or will it be the self? Well… regardless of who – the next act involves putting some distance between yourself and the perpetrator.
Suppose the Self Accepts at least Some of the Guilt?
Well, the only space the self can get form its own condemnation would be forgiveness. Now everything from this point forward can go one of several ways….
1. Enter Christ. Game over. In the present, Christ never condemns us. This process is not well understood in the Christian church.
2. The Self becomes guilty as charged and sinks into depression. Instead of “space” the self gets its feelings attached to the shame and condemnation. This creates depression. (Not all depression, but depression of the same type as failure brings).
3. The Self finds another escape goat to lay the “sin” upon. (It never ceases to amaze me, like a bad horror show where the dead come out of the grave…. The convicted “self” sometimes will “rise again” and go searching for a different place to unload the guilt… ) The cycle repeats itself – the wound is re-opened… the self is “re-vindicated”… so it thinks - etc.
“Don’t Pull that Trigger!”
All of this time and energy – Judgment has created little or no “truth” - and has become a low-energy attracting mechanism in our lives… causing other destruction to be attracted in our direction. It is a very real cycle – built upon a myth.
Like a justice gun in the hands of incompetent judge – we end up pointing it at whomever… the “judgment pistol” or “condemnation gun” gets pointed during the heat of battle – culminating in a single act… and the mythic self pulls the trigger.
Hopefully, forgiveness follows AFTER the bullet from the condemnation gun has hit its mark. And, from what I have seen, that fiery bullet can travel through many, many people – creating many unnecessary victims. Many unjustifiable. But, sometimes - yes only rarely - it seems - we hit the rightful “offender”. But what happened to being slow to wrath…? And what of forgiving those who wronged us willfully? And what if the rightful offender was my own self?
What if You had to Stop and Load Your Gun?
I suggest we have an interim step to slow things down a bit. Be like Barney Fife and keep our condemnation bullets in our pockets. Just don’t load the gun. It would go a LONG way to cutting down the number of follow up visits the “Forgiveness Doctor” would need to make.
Once we actually come to grips with the fact that we likely were wronged by nobody - except our own “self” in such instances – means that we NOW have an opportunity to shift the “guilt” from the “other” party to our own “self”.
If "guilt" must be in quotes and the "self" is really responsible, then it's less a matter of forgiveness than of honesty.
Contrary to the assumtions in your post, plenty of guilty people do bad things to innocent or mostly innocent people. It happens all the time.
I seriously doubt that those who post platitudes about forgiveness would be willing to proactively forgive all criminals and immediately free them. I doubt that many would suggest that paroled rapists or molesters be forgiven to the extent that they should be removed from sex offender lists.
Once we actually come to grips with the fact that we likely were wronged by nobody - except our own “self” in such instances – means that we NOW have an opportunity to shift the “guilt” from the “other” party to our own “self”.
wow i missed that one, LG. i don't get that at all
hi, dear t
well i think many times in order to move on, we must realize where the blame should be placed. it can free you
it took over 20 years for me to forgive the man who beat and broke my mother in front of me and a crowd of people in broad daylight
at the lowest point, it was like i was being literally being turned inside out by this long hissing wrenching sobbing exhale from hell...as i was driving alone along the highway over 20 years later
but it was quite a pivotal moment in my life
i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong.....
My post was only from the point of view when you come to the actual face of the culprit - and - for those times when it happens to be your own self. Does that make more sense? Hope so.
This happens to me, still. I guess I am still a bone head.
But, what I wrote has helped me in such cases try and not get a visit from that self-righteous part of me that still holds on....
LG, in cases where we have been sucker punched big time... and are like raped children - my post has very little to do with that sort of situation.
For the stuff that I cause - I have wanted to get a grip on the underlying cause. And I think it can have something to do with my rush to judgment.
well i think many times in order to move on, we must realize where the blame should be placed. it can free you
sounds very true to me
lets see if i can go there from here:
i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong.....
not in this case. i knew him. and i pretty much blamed him from the get go. because there was obviously no reason for him to do it. and so he was to blame, as a person. he did it. and he had a habit of becoming a real mindless violent brawling $&*#, like a lot of people i knew and know.
i also blamed the crowd for watching, and the cops for being corrupt bastards. i knew about them too. tons of history there. i blamed the hell's kitchen i grew up in for making this guy such a dangerous scrapper. cuz it did.
but as life goes on, more things are believed, more things are said, more books are read, life is broken into more and more pieces, the blame simply spreads and continues to spread like wildfire, moving from person to person to gods and spirits and devils and demons and angels and freewill and fate and family and friends and technology and history and politics and race and money and psychology and drugs and booze and music and sexuality and nature and art and atoms and food and dna and biology and stars and moons and sounds and light and on and on and on and on...
because i find that all of these things are to blame, too
i/we/it/they all have a hand in it, it seems
in this sense
blame can be good
blames within blames within blames
like reasons within reasons within reasons
cause behind cause behind cause
we can eat the fish and spit out the bones
but down in the nitty gritty of it all
to blame or not to blame, in any personal life situation...
to forgive or not to forgive...
...i think largely depends on how and why and where and when and what and who is saying or doing it and why
and depends a lot on how and where each one of us draws the lines of our actual sense of self
...which is closer to where i think 2gray was pointing with his recent posts
i think it helps to be able to speak and be clear regarding both interior and exterior realities as they relate to each other...not as they seem to contradict and confuse each other
I have reached the point in my life where I can Ask God not to hold their transgressions against them. Christ on the cross said "Father forgive them they no not what they do" He never looked at the priests and Romans and the part of the crowd who cheered them on and said "I forgive you"
I can ask they be spared the wrath of God in the life to come, I can ask that the sin not be held to their account , but as for forgetting, or somehow turning myself into a pretzel and convincing myself that their sin was really mine--not a chance--have enough of my own actual sins without shouldering theirs
Sirguess... I don't know what it is... but, when I read your stuff, it makes just way too much sense to me... does that make me a total stoner? :) And, - wierd thing is - we say things differently due to style but - you clarify my "engineeirng" prattle.
Temple Lady, your post reminded me of the woman taken in adultry who was set up to accuse Jesus. Nearly everyone thinks that he "forgave her". He never did. Never. He did say "Where are all your accusers? - Neither do I accuse you." He did not have to forgive her.... because he never condemned her in the first place. Fascinating what that must have meant to her. She was sure familiar with condemnation in her line of work.
Something happened to me in the last couple of days that I think kind of ties in to this thread... let me give it a go.
First of all:
There are many different levels for many things to be actualized. Sometimes the seemingly simple "mono mono" concepts are the ones that seem to expand... and twist and pick up more mass as they move into different spaces or awarnesses. Like Love.
I have parakeets in the house. They seem to be aware of the affection side of love. (Even the rabbit - my daughter sure loves her - and the give and take between these two is something to behold!).
Had a friend the other day tell me his brother in law perished in a tragic fire over the weekend. The surviving family went to visit the consumed house after the funeral, as a way of closure. And there, on the brick steps, was the man's dog - greiving - but sitting still protecting the "home" - hungry - and waiting for his master to return. That scene broke my heart. ... and that was "just" animal love for a human.
So what is love... ? At what level? Where? When? Between Who? Why?
Forgiveness is a lot like love... for in a way - it is a kind of love, a timely love, an unearned show of affection and care for another human being to help them move on.
I certainly do not think these notions of love and forgiveness are just words or "la la land" hopefuls - I think these concepts are living and are all around us and - yes - something we can share and learn to reflect - or at least, try to do so.
I just wish I could always - at least - love as good as that guy's dog.
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LG
There is a difference between declaring a debt to be a bad debt that isn't worth trying to collect and forgiving a debt. There is a similar difference between deciding not to seek punishment or restitution for an offense and forgiving the offense.
It is frequently better for the one wronged to decide not to pursue a matter or to harbor and possibly be consumed by ill feelings about it. One can make such a decision without forgiving the wrongdoer or the wrong action.
Excathedra posted this quote earlier:
I agree. No one has the obligation to forgive anyone of anything and the vile notion that one must forgive in order to truly heal has caused no end of hardship and heartache to people who have been wronged by others. Forgiveness is always a choice. It may very well be the right choice, but if appropriate conditions are not met, refusal to forgive may very well be a better choice. Withholding forgiveness does not imply harboring of resentment or hatred, or failure to move on in life.
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laleo
Hey, Long Gone. How've you been?
I agree with excathedra and sirguess on this point (as well as others, but for the purpose of this post . . . ): this may be a question of semantics. The definition I'm working with is this one, from the dictionary:
forgive: stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw or mistake.
If that's the definition, then I don't see the distinction you're making between "deciding not to seek punishment," if the person making that decision is at peace with it, and "forgiving the offense." Again, this may be semantics. And, furthermore, I think it's probably possible for a person to forgive, and still seek punishment (or, maybe more accurately, restitution). I'm hedging a little, because I can't climb into people's minds to know their thoughts and feelings, or all aspects of what motivates them.
Anyway, the thing that put me off to that quote (other than that the first sentence seems twisted, although I can't precisely explain why it feels that way to me) is that the author attributes the "command" (I think it's a mischaracterization to even call it a "command") to perpetrators only. In other words, in that particular snippet, he doesn't allow for a caring person (NOT a perpetrator) to hold the position that forgiveness is in the interest of the abused, not the abuser. And not to impose it on anyone, but to help someone out of his misery, if one cares enough about the other to want him to find something better in life.
I might be coming at this from an entirely different angle, but as I see it, if I release myself from the offense (and the offender), it strips the offender of his power. I'm out of his reach, beyond his sphere of influence. He's alone on the dance floor, unless he finds another partner, because I'm sitting this one out. (If only it were that simple, right? Oh, how I wish it were.)
Another thing that bothers me about the quote is his certainty. Is he really that confident that he knows the course that "true" (as opposed to what?) healing might take, enough to know with certainty what the LAST step might be? "Living lie"? Then what to make of all the testimonies from people who found their own redemption in forgiveness?
Also, the reason I question the writer's motives for saying what he said is that it's hard to deny that an entire industry exists to exploit and perpetuate psychological pain for the purpose of advancing itself. It's to the benefit of certain religious groups, leaders, self-help gurus, and others, to keep people in anger, shame, denial, and a host of other negative emotions in order to justify their own existence. And to get rich. Then again, maybe the fellow who wrote that is thoroughly altruistic. I wouldn't know.
I agree that no one is obligated to forgive. And I also agree (if you're even saying this) that anger (a natural, and, I would say, healthy, response to betrayal) can be a force for social good, if it changes the system that perpetuates the abuse.
Anyway, I sure don't know all the ins and outs of forgiveness. I mean, what's the goal? If it's to live a happy, healthy, productive life, and forgiveness can help get you there, what's the downside?
Just a few thoughts to add to the thread. For what it's worth.
Under what condition is "refusal to forgive . . . a better choice"? Just wondering where you're going with this.
Take care, Long Gone. Hope you enjoyed your holidays.
To excathedra: I wasn't sure how to read that "thanks, laleo." You did put that quote up there for discussion, right? My comments are general. Not specifically to you. I wasn't then or now making any recommendations about how YOU should feel, think, or proceed. Just saying how I would. With caution. (Which is how I proceed with most anything, come to think of it.)
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doojable
Let me be clear here, lest you think that the starting quote is a cursory glance over the subject at hand. I posted a couple of paragraphs from one chapter in this book. I did my best to pick the words that best described what I believed was the central thougth of the matter. Although the book is called What's So Amazing About Grace? , It actually focuses quite a bit on forgiveness as well. There are many many examples of real-life situations as well. In my opinion it is a book worth the read. The author handles forgiveness and grace as if they are mirrors of each other ( at least in my opinion.) There are plenty of scripture references and explanations.
Forgiveness and punishment - well I can see how these two can be separate. In fact I think that knowing that someone will recieve their ultimate judgement and punishment - if you will - from God, makes it that much easier to forgive. I don't have to be the one who does the punishing. I get to "hurl away" that act and the feelings that keep me wanting to do so.
We are instructed to pray for our enemies. We are instructed to not answer evil with evil. We are instructed not to rejoice in iniquity. IMHO i believe that God has given us many different instructions to lead us to the conclusion of forgiveness.
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laleo
I'm not following you, doojable. Are you saying you want our comments to be confined to what is in the opening post? Like, do you just want to discuss the book?
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sirguessalot
nice way to put it
to add...
depending on the depth and devastation of the crime
this can actually deliver a shock to the body, to our life
it took over 20 years for me to forgive the man who beat and broke my mother in front of me and a crowd of people in broad daylight
at the lowest point, it was like i was being literally being turned inside out by this long hissing wrenching sobbing exhale from hell...as i was driving alone along the highway over 20 years later
but it was quite a pivotal moment in my life
and there is definately a synchronicity of good events that continue to cascade around the relationships surrounding the people involved, more than anything
but...im also kind of a freak
ive been through a lot more crap than most people i know
but ...i'll agree more than anyone...its all easier said than done
anyway, reminded me of the "hurling away" you mentioned, dooj
and how we emanate "ripples" with everything we say or do
and how the shape of our intent, like a parent, is the very first shaper of the character of those ripples that follow...which are then, of course, subject to whatever forces they bounce off and collide and mingle with...yada yada
but the point is
there is a hurling
which can be summed up as our behaviour
and how much we really do effect the world around us
the people we love
health and well-being and understanding
yada yada
crap like that
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doojable
laleo,
I have no intiention of limiting this discussion in any way. it just became clear to me that the quote I started with was not as complete as i would have liked it to be -nor can it be because I don't want to write the whole book down.
As a matter of fact I have competely agreed with most of the comments made on this thread. I especially have enjoyed your posts. I realize that since so many people are so tired of the subject that there are a lot of opinions out there that aren't being heard.
I think I just wanted to weigh in and spell out again that I don't believe that the scriptures tell us we have to embrace our abusers. I got the feeling that perhaps the parts of the book I quoted left that point vague. As Mark pointed out, there are a lot of people out there that might read this thread that have been through h&!! with TWI. I in no way want to add to their hurt or pain.
I guess that in trying to make myself clear I muddied things up a little. - Hope I just cleared it all up.
this discussion hasn't had any name-calling or badgering - so i'm enjoying the discussion.
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LG
Laleo, I see forgiveness as declaring a debt or offense null and void, something like a legal pardon. I think that it is frequently beneficial to continue to hold the perpetrator accountable for both the wrong and consequences of it, but to simply decide that further attempts to settle the account would be pointless or even counterproductive. Some people might call that forgiveness. I wouldn't.
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doojable
Sirguessalot - I too had to work long and hard to forgive:
My mother died when I was eight.
My father was distant.
My step-mother was abusive and hated us - or at least that's what we thought. We later found out that her father died while in prison for killing her mother. She inherited the same predisposition for craziness and passed it on to my half brother.
She died wanting to ask for forgiveness (years later when I was in my 30's) but was told not to bother.
You know, now that I have worked through it I feel a bit sorry for her - she wanted to repent and seek forgiveness - but she probably felt denied. She died a very painful death from colon cancer.
I still hate what she did to my brothers and I. I still can't quite call her son with my father my brother - I have to add the "half." But I have forgiven her - it seems only right.
I also had to work to forgive my Dad. He watched as a lot of this went on. he alway just wanted "peace." He took way too long to leave her because he wouldn't leave her unless he could get the RC church to deem his marriage "null." It just took him too long to stand up for us. But today we talk and he is forgiven - and yes he asked - although I have to be honest and say that I had forgiven him before he asked.
As I understand things right now: (and this can change as I learn more.)
The person wronged is suppose to confront the perpetrator ( no one else) for his offense. (Others are brought in after the perp doesn't repent.)
Upon hearing the offense (or sometime later) the wrong-doer is supposed to repent and ask for forgiveness.
That's at least one scenario. That's also a "best-case" scenario and doesn't address "on point" the offenses that many have posted on this site.
To those who read this topic and get angry thinking that I am somehow not sensitive to your situation, I apologize and ask forgiveness. I have meant you no harm. I certainly hope that when we meet in chat or other forums that we can meet as friends (as much as possible considering we really don't get to meet.)
dooj
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sirguessalot
thanks for going there, dooj
just some thoughts as i read
as i sifted it a few times real slow
pardon if i get too deep for anyone
but i do believe this subject is already somewhere near bottom of many things, anyway
i just cant help but see this common thread throughout the vast topic of forgiveness
which is its role in the process of our dying as much as in our living
and how it is bound to our very sense of mortality and self-reason
but not only in how forgiveness may help shape the experience of our own passing
but how it also plays a major role in our experience of the passing of others
…there are few things that seem to simply weigh heavier and heavier together as lives pass by
even our cynical self may or may not find a reason to forgive the ultimate cause of the universe
…for simply sucking til the end
just as our fundamental self may or may not find a reason to forgive our holy heavenly father figure
…for freewill and the devil…AND for letting the devil win so damn much all the time
overall, i think forgiveness is a good word for pointing at the quintessential means
to help deal with all the painful dramas that come with being victims of existence itself
and is somehow tied directly to the depth and degree we live and die in peace together
but in the hyper-materialized, concept-saturated, often self-oblivious mainstream world
i think it has become habit to read right over a simple old idea like:
"greater understanding leads to greater forgiveness"
we easily miss the deeper and wider personal and interpersonal implications
and how they are really only amplified by greater knowledge and information
this kind of blindness seems like a major cause of our modern travesties
especially considering the growing ‘market share’ of the aging population
but i also think the modern renaissance of hospice is a godsend, along these lines
having a sane rational reason to approach ordinary subjects such as atonement and redemption
as it pertains to living and suffering and dying in a world still trying to be post-modern
i mean…why not give ordinary subjects like forgiveness, atonement and redemption
the same priority that we give to science, medicine, politics, law, sports, or entertainment?
and in a way that honors the ways in which people have interpreted their experience of life?
especially considering how most all of the world’s great religions and traditions still play a huge role
as vessel for the great wisdom of those times when the art of living and dying well was not so out of style
although, religion can also get us stuck on the idea that there are some solid preset conditions for forgiveness
it can really limit our ability to finally play God like we are ‘supposed’ to
which always reminds of how the kid and his gang freaked everyone out in the old stories
when they taught and practiced forgiving as if it was an ordinary thing…
…which also seems a big part of why they were capable of walking among the poor and dying 'sinners'
…
btw…in ruminating all this, i just thought of a motto:
i’m not concerned as much with personally living forever and ever…
…as much as i am about everyone being able to live and die in peace together
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doojable
Speaking pesonally, I find that when I am strugggling with forgiveness is when I make myself a victim. I concentrate on what someone did to ME. What someone said to ME. How they ignored ME.
I am like a dog licking its wounds in the middle of a great highway - because fo everyone else life goes on and they have their own hurts they are dealing with.
Once I let go of that and stop looking at how I was wronged I am able to look around and see that others have it much worst than I.
I lost a mom young - but I wasn't an orphan. I wasn't raised in a wartorn country and my children weren't barracaded in their school by terrorists.
This doesn't mean that I forget my life but I insist on making it better for others like my kids.
Doesn't the Bible say something about God giving us beauty for ashes? We have got to be willing to trade in the ashes.
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sirguessalot
you bring up some good points
obviously tied to forgiveness
the topic of victimization also covers too many angles and contexts for a quick, easy conversation
especially when considering wide spectrum of fortune and misfortune in life
which is part of where things seem to get stuck with any flat duality model
in many traditions, their complex many-chambered expressions of heaven and hell
were not always meant to be representative of mythic otherwordly places
or different times in the past or future,
but an actual attempt to graph, or otherwise map the spectrum of human experience,
as they saw it occuring in the present tense, right there in the universe
and along these lines,
i think that when and as we can relax our grip on notions of some preset list of spiritual crimes and laws,
and we continue to keep learning to see how life itself is ‘words out of the mouth of god’
we might still find the old term 'unforgivable sin' to be a useful way to talk about the cause of some ‘hellish states of being’
simply unforgivable, perhaps, when occasions of violence or torment are so severe
or so traumatic and overwhelmingly invasive, that for whatever reason,
it is simply impossible (or near impossible) for the victims to forgive whatever is thought to have caused the violence
those occasions when we simply really have no choice in the matter
because something has invasively been thrust in us or upon us or around us
like the universe itself somehow reaches out and grabs our life by the throat and throttles us
and so, to whatever depth or degree we find the ‘wound’ to be
it is simply beyond our relative capacity to bear
which is simply tragic
and unforgivable
god or no god
who can blame a dying child for not finding a way to forgive what it thinks is the cause of the stray mine?
who can blame someone for not being able to forgive a cult if they feel that it wasted 20-30 years of their life?
who can blame a crazy world for going crazier after watching and feeling things like 9/11 and war on live tv?
what do we do if something happens that would take us 50 years to find a way to forgive on our own
but also happens to kill us slowly over the next 6 months?
…or, we are already 80 years old when it hits?
so i wonder…
how might we also find ways to forgive ourselves for not being able to forgive things?
…and i do hope we can
because life seems to be a continuous cascading affair of crimes upon crimes upon crimes upon crimes
and the shape of any one experience may be the result be 99.99% circumstance
where forgiveness is simply not always an option
as a last resort…we can always just blame the big bang, i guess
just play god and find a way forgive the original unforgivable sin itself
(tho i prefer to think of it more as a ‘big bang bang banger banging’
…like a thump thump thump thump)
btw, here is something i found on ashes and beauty, dooj
just sitting with it awhile, it gives some interesting impressions
tho i’d love to hear what some of the classical rabbis and jewish mystics say about it
or someone who really has gone 'all the way to the mountain and back' with the text
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markomalley
I think that sums it up as well as anything said so far!
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Too Gray Now
Forgiveness. Huge topic. Good posts.
Really some GREAT stuff on this thread.
I think much of what requires forgiveness is a follower/type emotion or – said another way – it is not an “originator” type of emotion. It exists because something else created the need for it. But what could create a need for forgiveness and why?
The Self Inflicted Need for Forgiveness. (There are other needs for forgiveness which Sirguess and others have pointed out quite well. I am speaking about the damage which we do and why).
The Occurrence:
Judgment – to condemnation - creates a need for forgiveness – every time it happens.
I usually get upset when: I am trying to justify my thoughts and processes. (This is why I feel the urge not to listen to someone else and simply say “Ah huh… Ah huh…” nodding my head in an affirmative fashion while I formulate what I am going to say next - as soon as they take a breath!! LOL)
The Scramble:
It takes a lot of mental work for your “self” to convince you (and the other person - possibly) that WHAT you are thinking and feeling is “true”. The self walls itself in for safety during perceived attacks. It might be something as slight as not being understood or judged “not justified” in the other person's eyes. At this juncture, all that may be needed is a sigh or roll of the eyes from the other person - or some feeling - and then we KNOW that we have already been judged - before we have even had our day in court...
This further bolsters the self perception that our judgment is "true" or at the least we were wronged. Our minds work hard to make/form or create the thoughts which seem so VERY true – to our “self”.
The Battle and Attachment of Judgment:
The next action the “self” “must” take is defensive action – at a minimum. Or all-out-attack if necessary. ANYTHING which does not support the myth that the self is creating – becomes an enemy (the myth being: that the self is “true” and “right” and “justified”). At this point… any anger becomes justified and any attack becomes righteously warranted very easily. Why? Because of the judgment to condemnation.
The Realization that So Often Never Occurs:
Once we actually come to grips with the fact that we likely were wronged by nobody - except our own “self” in such instances – means that we NOW have an opportunity to shift the “guilt” from the “other” party to our own “self”. This does not usually go over too well with the self – like the proverbial lead balloon. Even so, usually only a glimpse of this reality and decent people MAY understand they have assigned the blame to an innocent party. This kind of mis-appropriation of judgment needs to be released and the “offending” party needs to be set free. Such an action would be forgiveness for reason and realization of innocence – Unfortunately, this often never occurs and forgiveness goes wanting – when it seems desperately deserved.
Suppose the Realization Does Occur:
Suppose we “see the light” and forgive the innocent party. Then what? What do we do when the guilt shifts and comes home to roost upon the “self”… the guilt will keep looking for a place because the self is a tireless and tyranical master for it will REQUIRE that SOMEBODY pay for this wrong!!!!…. Who is it going to be? Society? The Republicans? The Democrats? Women are fundamentally Stupid? Men are simply Neanderthals? The Devil (ask Flip Wilson about that one LOL) – or will it be the self? Well… regardless of who – the next act involves putting some distance between yourself and the perpetrator.
Suppose the Self Accepts at least Some of the Guilt?
Well, the only space the self can get form its own condemnation would be forgiveness. Now everything from this point forward can go one of several ways….
1. Enter Christ. Game over. In the present, Christ never condemns us. This process is not well understood in the Christian church.
2. The Self becomes guilty as charged and sinks into depression. Instead of “space” the self gets its feelings attached to the shame and condemnation. This creates depression. (Not all depression, but depression of the same type as failure brings).
3. The Self finds another escape goat to lay the “sin” upon. (It never ceases to amaze me, like a bad horror show
where the dead come out of the grave…. The convicted “self” sometimes will “rise again” 
and go searching for a different place to unload the guilt… ) The cycle repeats itself – the wound is re-opened… the self is “re-vindicated”… so it thinks - etc.
“Don’t Pull that Trigger!”
All of this time and energy
– Judgment has created little or no “truth” - and has become a low-energy attracting mechanism in our lives… causing other destruction to be attracted in our direction. It is a very real cycle – built upon a myth.
Like a justice gun in the hands of incompetent judge – we end up pointing it at whomever… the “judgment pistol” or “condemnation gun” gets pointed during the heat of battle – culminating in a single act… and the mythic self pulls the trigger.
Hopefully, forgiveness follows AFTER the bullet from the condemnation gun has hit its mark. And, from what I have seen, that fiery bullet can travel through many, many people – creating many unnecessary victims. Many unjustifiable. But, sometimes - yes only rarely - it seems - we hit the rightful “offender”. But what happened to being slow to wrath…? And what of forgiving those who wronged us willfully? And what if the rightful offender was my own self?
What if You had to Stop and Load Your Gun?
I suggest we have an interim step to slow things down a bit. Be like Barney Fife and keep our condemnation bullets in our pockets. Just don’t load the gun. It would go a LONG way to cutting down the number of follow up visits the “Forgiveness Doctor” would need to make.
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excathedra
what if you feel retribution is not necessary for the one who "wronged" you ?
is that we're talking about ?
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LG
If "guilt" must be in quotes and the "self" is really responsible, then it's less a matter of forgiveness than of honesty.
Contrary to the assumtions in your post, plenty of guilty people do bad things to innocent or mostly innocent people. It happens all the time.
I seriously doubt that those who post platitudes about forgiveness would be willing to proactively forgive all criminals and immediately free them. I doubt that many would suggest that paroled rapists or molesters be forgiven to the extent that they should be removed from sex offender lists.
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sirguessalot
i think so, e, in a lot of ways
but also, when retribution simply may not be an option, or may never be an option
and we are basically stuck with our own ongoing relationships with the crimes
and all that graffiti that is still splattered across the walls of our life experience
like...even if i find that i no longer have a reason to hate the guy who busted my mom up
i may still blame myself for not having had the courage to smash him over the head with a shovel
or i may still blame god or the devil for allowing/causing people to do such things
or i may even still blame my mom for hooking up with such losers
or i may blame society for being such a cesspool
and i think this is where things like good friends, open space, skillful means,
and greater understanding can become more and more valuable
we are all in this together
even when we are alone
...
good stuff, TGN
i really like that advice from Mayberry, too
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excathedra
hi, dear t
well i think many times in order to move on, we must realize where the blame should be placed. it can free you
i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong.....mwah
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Too Gray Now
Ex and LG...
Agreed.
Really.
My post was only from the point of view when you come to the actual face of the culprit - and - for those times when it happens to be your own self. Does that make more sense? Hope so.
This happens to me, still. I guess I am still a bone head.
But, what I wrote has helped me in such cases try and not get a visit from that self-righteous part of me that still holds on....
LG, in cases where we have been sucker punched big time... and are like raped children - my post has very little to do with that sort of situation.
For the stuff that I cause - I have wanted to get a grip on the underlying cause. And I think it can have something to do with my rush to judgment.
Peace.
Good thread!!
And Sirguess, I always like Barney. :)
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excathedra
thanks, tgn
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sirguessalot
lets see if i can go there from here:
not in this case. i knew him. and i pretty much blamed him from the get go. because there was obviously no reason for him to do it. and so he was to blame, as a person. he did it. and he had a habit of becoming a real mindless violent brawling $&*#, like a lot of people i knew and know.
i also blamed the crowd for watching, and the cops for being corrupt bastards. i knew about them too. tons of history there. i blamed the hell's kitchen i grew up in for making this guy such a dangerous scrapper. cuz it did.
but as life goes on, more things are believed, more things are said, more books are read, life is broken into more and more pieces, the blame simply spreads and continues to spread like wildfire, moving from person to person to gods and spirits and devils and demons and angels and freewill and fate and family and friends and technology and history and politics and race and money and psychology and drugs and booze and music and sexuality and nature and art and atoms and food and dna and biology and stars and moons and sounds and light and on and on and on and on...
because i find that all of these things are to blame, too
i/we/it/they all have a hand in it, it seems
in this sense
blame can be good
blames within blames within blames
like reasons within reasons within reasons
cause behind cause behind cause
we can eat the fish and spit out the bones
but down in the nitty gritty of it all
to blame or not to blame, in any personal life situation...
to forgive or not to forgive...
...i think largely depends on how and why and where and when and what and who is saying or doing it and why
and depends a lot on how and where each one of us draws the lines of our actual sense of self
...which is closer to where i think 2gray was pointing with his recent posts
i think it helps to be able to speak and be clear regarding both interior and exterior realities as they relate to each other...not as they seem to contradict and confuse each other
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templelady
I have reached the point in my life where I can Ask God not to hold their transgressions against them. Christ on the cross said "Father forgive them they no not what they do" He never looked at the priests and Romans and the part of the crowd who cheered them on and said "I forgive you"
I can ask they be spared the wrath of God in the life to come, I can ask that the sin not be held to their account , but as for forgetting, or somehow turning myself into a pretzel and convincing myself that their sin was really mine--not a chance--have enough of my own actual sins without shouldering theirs
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Too Gray Now
Ex, thanks for thankin' me
Sirguess... I don't know what it is... but, when I read your stuff, it makes just way too much sense to me... does that make me a total stoner? :) And, - wierd thing is - we say things differently due to style but - you clarify my "engineeirng" prattle.
Temple Lady, your post reminded me of the woman taken in adultry who was set up to accuse Jesus. Nearly everyone thinks that he "forgave her". He never did. Never. He did say "Where are all your accusers? - Neither do I accuse you." He did not have to forgive her.... because he never condemned her in the first place. Fascinating what that must have meant to her. She was sure familiar with condemnation in her line of work.
Something happened to me in the last couple of days that I think kind of ties in to this thread... let me give it a go.
First of all:
There are many different levels for many things to be actualized. Sometimes the seemingly simple "mono mono" concepts are the ones that seem to expand... and twist and pick up more mass as they move into different spaces or awarnesses. Like Love.
I have parakeets in the house. They seem to be aware of the affection side of love. (Even the rabbit - my daughter sure loves her - and the give and take between these two is something to behold!).
Had a friend the other day tell me his brother in law perished in a tragic fire over the weekend. The surviving family went to visit the consumed house after the funeral, as a way of closure. And there, on the brick steps, was the man's dog - greiving - but sitting still protecting the "home" - hungry - and waiting for his master to return. That scene broke my heart. ... and that was "just" animal love for a human.
So what is love... ? At what level? Where? When? Between Who? Why?
Forgiveness is a lot like love... for in a way - it is a kind of love, a timely love, an unearned show of affection and care for another human being to help them move on.
I certainly do not think these notions of love and forgiveness are just words or "la la land" hopefuls - I think these concepts are living and are all around us and - yes - something we can share and learn to reflect - or at least, try to do so.
I just wish I could always - at least - love as good as that guy's dog.
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excathedra
sir g and too g, your last two posts were really wonderful
don't know what to say, just letting it sink in
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sirguessalot
thanks you guys...many mutual things going on here
and sorry, e...for wondering off like that with your wondering..
lemme take another swing at what i think yer getting at...
i think that points to what i meant by 'cascades of crimes'
and how injury can go from bad to worse to catastrophic real fast
the more layered and stacked and tangled things become
navigating this knotted mess is a big part of our life's work
...all of our wisdom and peace and salvation is hiding in there
and its the only knotted mess we have to work with
and everyone has one
i think that as we, the people, find more reasons and ways and means
to simply trust each other more in everyday interpersonal ways
our interest and ability to comb out the knots will increase
because we will be able to see that we see each other...which helps us see ourself
when we can more openly and honestly compare and verify our maps of experience
...
btw, i wonder if it took an entire of culture of people over 2000 years to forgive themselves for something they never did wrong...
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