And incense is a wonderful thing although my purpose for using it hasn't always been pure. And it appears smoke genders a variety of thoughts and emotions.
I can't really add to this thread because life without God in it wouldn't be worth my breathing.
I must apologize, I have not read all of the thread, maybe 4 pages. So if I repeat a point already brought up, I'm sorry.
I think the way I got to where I am now (well, the begining of that journey) was to stop for a moment and not assume there was a god. That did not suddenly turn my life upside down, nor did the rules of logic force me to disgard every other idea I ever held. Instead, I held on the the many good sound concepts that I knew and asked myself "is this still good without Godand why?" Turns out that most things that are good with a god are good without one. There is still sound reason without a god. It leads to many sound conclusions on why to be a good person and why to not kill your neighbor for no reason at all or why not to with good reason.
For me this process wasn't a painful one. Leaving the ministry was painful for me, but to stop assuming was not. In fact the process has been rather enjoyable and peaceful and fun and enlightening.
There are certain things that each of us value and many of them are probably the same or similar to eachother. Hold on to those things. I will not cheat on my wife becuase I love her and I value her love and I value the relationship we have. I do not want to destroy that or comprimise that so the thought of cheating isn't even entertained. It isn't an option. It isn't a thought. And not because the "Bible tells me so." I value life, both my own and that of others. I take that and act accordingly. These things that I value and base the my actions upon are not really all that situational. They may shift a little here and there, possibly the same way a believer at times has thoughts and actions that aren't quite right on with their beliefs. These values are both something outside myself and wholey in my self and for myself. It serves me to serve others. It helps me to help others. When I act in this way it satisfies the need I have to hold on to the things that I value. It also satisfies the needs of others.
I like what Todd was saying earlier about this being our workshop, our studio. It is a process we go through- finding out what we value and how to secure that value in our life. Sometimes that may be letting go and smashing what was before and realising that vessel was clay and that clay was dirt and that dirt seemed like nothing...
but now you see it to be everything.
Is it God's love you value or is it the concept of love that you value?
Is there a difference and does it matter?
Does the God aspect of it matter?
Or is that god a means to an ends?
I saw a number of people saying things like "if I am wrong I have wasted nothing,
but if an unbeliever is wrong they will have an eternity to"......I don't know, say "my bad".
My moto is: If one unverifiable concept may be true, an infinite number of other unverifiable concepts could also be true.
So I would ask, an unbeliever of what?
You had better be a believer of everything...just in case.
You don't want the "Christians will eternally be poked with cattle prods by the ghosts of very angery cows while being laughed at by small lizard fairies" option to be true.
Just a thought.
and why does this emoticon say "spy" and not "pot head?"
I think your post is one of the best explanations of how an unbeliever can be just as absolutely moral as I have seen yet. Besides, there are plenty of religious-based morals that are a lot more 'situational' or 'utilitarian' than people realize.
And I love this line: If one unverifiable concept may be true, an infinite number of other unverifiable concepts could also be true.
That alone upends the premise of the Pascal's Wager without a doubt.
Now as to your Question of The Ages: and why does this emoticon say "spy" and not "pot head?"
Is it God's love you value or is it the concept of love that you value?
Is there a difference and does it matter?
Does the God aspect of it matter?
Or is that god a means to an ends?
For Me It's God's love I value because it is a constant unwavering presence in my life that I can feel/sense whenever I "look"
There is nothing to compare in human terms, or at least in the Human terms I have experienced on this earth,. All my interactions with "love" vis-a-vis myself and others have been contingent on my being and doing and having what they wanted and needed me to be, do or have. Failure to live up to those expectationshas resulted in immediate cessation of love.
Even in my darkest moments I could sense God's presence--I may have not chosen to embrace it because I wanted something else at the moment but it was always there. ONLY God has unconditional undying love for me.
As for a means to an end --If you mean do I believe that the faithful will get certain rewards in eternity --yes. But if you are asking if the rewards are why I believe--the answer is no--I believe because of the real and tangible love and His presence I feel now and in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
Having believed in God - How do you "unring that bell?"
Sure there are all sorts of things that don't loose their meaning "if there is no God," but somewhere in the back of your life there was a belief in God. I'm not so sure that the same would be true had you never known or been exposed to Him. ( I know you might say that I am assuming that there is a Him to have known - but this can be circular to the extreme if we're not careful.)
Having believed in God - How do you "unring that bell?"
Sure there are all sorts of things that don't loose their meaning "if there is no God," but somewhere in the back of your life there was a belief in God. I'm not so sure that the same would be true had you never known or been exposed to Him. ( I know you might say that I am assuming that there is a Him to have known - but this can be circular to the extreme if we're not careful.)
Doojable,
You are exactly right and wrong. You are making that assumption and it only becomes circular because of it. Without the assumption, there is no circular thinking circulating. I will answer your question anyway, even though you pretty much already did ;) This wasn't a wake up one morning and hit my head on the toilet sort of realization. It took time.
In the ministry your beliefs were to be in "your heart", the seat of your personal life, planted by the waters and shall not be moved, unquestionable. This is not how real life works. At least it is not how it should work- holding your brain hostage to one idea. We were quickly brought from one assumption- "the integrity of the word", to in order to get to the deep stuff you have to go from the milk to meat. Before we knew it there was a lot hanging on a couple of ideas that needed to be believed, solid as a rock, but if you didn't, the whole house of cards came tumbling down. The whole wise man foolish man idea seemed off once I realised that the rock I was building my house on was the "king of hearts." "And the house came tumbling down..." , but I still had all the cards though. Being cards, there wasn't much to cry over. I flipped them right side up to see their face and realised- hey these things are still good for playing Ducky, Slap Jack, Oh Hell, Bullsh!t, and of course Go Fish.
For me, I started questioning things that were bothering me a little and that led to other questions which led to the big ones. Perhaps I am an easy going guy and perhaps I was never as "sold out" as I thought I was, but it became clear to me that these seemingly big quesitons didn't have real answers and that didn't really affect me as a person- who I am - how I act.
How do you "unring that bell?"
Sorry if I don't know that expression, but I can't help but think of Pavlov's dogs. I guess it isn't an unringing but rather realising that perhaps that ringing in my ears was possibly from too many years of "teachers" screaming at me from a podium. Perhaps it was that I realised that the clarity of what I thought was the ringing of the bell of God was really just something called a dial tone.
...Or perhaps once I got to a certian point I realised there was no way to believe in a god without faith and that I had no need of faith. Now sometimes people hear that and think I am being condiscending, like I am better because I don't NEED faith, and you have some sort of deficiency because you do. I'm not. People are different. I don't understand everyone or everything.
Perhaps the biggest thing to get used to was not thinking I knew a lot of things absolutely. Getting comfortable with the idea that I could be wrong on any number of things is a little different from building a house on a rock and being planted by the waters of truth. Then again perhaps it wasn't all that hard. I had grown used to thinking I could be wrong after many years of having to confirm thoughts with leadership and after arriving at a place after asking questions without absolute answers.
Sorry for being long winded, but you guys asked.
Sure there are all sorts of things that don't loose their meaning "if there is no God," but somewhere in the back of your life there was a belief in God.
I guess in short... I examined that belief in God and realised I didn't believe it and perhaps I never really did.
Is it God's love you value or is it the concept of love that you value?
Is there a difference and does it matter?
Does the God aspect of it matter?
Or is that god a means to an ends?
For Me It's God's love I value because it is a constant unwavering presence in my life that I can feel/sense whenever I "look"
There is nothing to compare in human terms, or at least in the Human terms I have experienced on this earth,. All my interactions with "love" vis-a-vis myself and others have been contingent on my being and doing and having what they wanted and needed me to be, do or have. Failure to live up to those expectationshas resulted in immediate cessation of love.
Even in my darkest moments I could sense God's presence--I may have not chosen to embrace it because I wanted something else at the moment but it was always there. ONLY God has unconditional undying love for me.
As for a means to an end --If you mean do I believe that the faithful will get certain rewards in eternity --yes. But if you are asking if the rewards are why I believe--the answer is no--I believe because of the real and tangible love and His presence I feel now and in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
I don't mean to critique your feelings or your beliefs TL, I'm just going to tell what I get from what you wrote.
It seems to me what you value whether it is from God or anyone else is unconditional love or as I call it- love.
"God is love"
Well which is it?
Is love a concept?
Is it a chemical reaction?
Is it a persona?
If so, what other abstract concepts have personas?
It might be good to know.
Personally, the love I have for and from my family is way more unconditional than what I have read about or experienced with the God of the Bible. I feel sad when people say that they don't have that on a human level. It exists.
Having believed in God - How do you "unring that bell?"
Sure there are all sorts of things that don't loose their meaning "if there is no God," but somewhere in the back of your life there was a belief in God. I'm not so sure that the same would be true had you never known or been exposed to Him.
My daughter was not raised to believe in God or gods. (I was still trying to sort out what I thought about that during her early years, but I was quite open about my doubts, and became secure in my conclusion that there is no God by the time she was six or seven.) She is now 22 years old and is a better, more loving, more stable person than I was at her age. I actually find myself envying her for that at times.
"Unring that bell" is a line used in courts by lawyers. Once a jury heas something it is said that even of instructed to disregard it the cannot really forget ever hearing it.
And your daughter may not believe in God or gods - but she has heard of them. (Just an aside not an argumentative point.)
"Unring that bell" is a line used in courts by lawyers. Once a jury heas something it is said that even of instructed to disregard it the cannot really forget ever hearing it.
And your daughter may not believe in God or gods - but she has heard of them. (Just an aside not an argumentative point.)
I accept it in that spirit but I'll point out that probably every human being who has ever existed has heard of or contemplated the possibility of gods or other supernatural beings (fairies, spirits of ancestors, etc.).
How does one unring the bell of the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars, and so on? How does one unring fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells?
There's no question that my morals and worldview (and by extension, my daughter's) have been influenced by Christianity, but they have also been influenced by many other things, including cold, rational thought.
There's no question that my morals and worldview (and by extension, my daughter's) have been influenced by Christianity, but they have also been influenced by many other things, including cold, rational thought
I am confused--do you really believe that Christians don't employ cold rational thought when applying morality and viewing the world??? The two are not mutually exclusive. Rationality does not depart because you are Christian
Christianity should also include some of the other religious beliefs of the world to get a more rounded view of the perspective of a god. Eastern religions have been despised in general by the western ones. This should be reconsidered. There are many mutual beliefs between the west and east. One could search it out and see for themselves. Cuz i'm just old clay, generally ignored and not considered one that can help in some manner. But that's alright with me, i don't mind. A few hear.
So for one to take it upon themselves to look and search things out that have been brought up over the past 5 years right here at greasespot takes some doing and undoing.
Like a friggin book i've tryed to document what my main hurtles of faith have been here in these pages. And they can be seen by the new eye. Although i know everyone is different, despite our common experiences in twi. So there is not a common denominator except the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Creater.
Assuming for a moment that there is no God can be healthy and give a different perspective. What parts are missing? Are all the pieces fitting together without a god.
And is this god some external being or is it an internal presence or both?
So starting from scratch, do we ignore things or take them into consideration.
Morals and rational thinking are built into every person. The right to choose is ours.
It hasn't anything to do with religous beliefs but rather the foundation laid from the beginning.
How does one unring the bell of the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars, and so on? How does one unring fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells?
AHHHHHH but - I never believed in those beings - so no bell has rung. I have no mental gymnastics to do here. ( You might say this is sad - but I'm not sad.)
It's fine with me if you accept gods of the earth, leprachauns etc. - But I if you don't and are just putting them forth for the sake of the argument - then the point really is mute. I just would find it very difficult to go through life without at least a memory of God, Jesus.
I wonder - is it God you dont' believe in or the organizations that have been representing Him lately?
I do see the value of reevaluating - but personally I couldn't totally forget it all and go through life that way.
I wonder - is it God you dont' believe in or the organizations that have been representing Him lately?
I don't believe in any sort of deity. That doesn't reflect on my opinion of some religious organizations. I think highly of many of them. Many do a lot of good, both for individuals and for the greater community. I think that some of their basic premises are not well founded and that their notion of God is little more than wishful thinking, but many of the moral structures they have built upon those premises are sound, and could be just as well be based on different premises.
I'm not a theist but I'm far from being anti-theist or anti-Christiian. I like much about Christianity. I simply see it as being based on fables. But that's not a bad thing, in my estimation. Fables and other fiction can convey great ideas. I don't have to think that the fables are true in order to appreciate the great ideas they convey.
I know enough about varoius religious beliefs that I can convincingly espouse them. I have on many occasions prayed with people, reminded them of various scriptures they hold dear, and reasoned with them from those scriptures in order to try to build their faith and comfort them in times of trouble, even though I don't personally share their faith. I could and would minister last rites to a dying Catholic, if a priest were not available. I could and would assume the role of a Protestant fundamentalist, in order to comfort a person of that persuasion. I could and would assume the role of a more liberal Prostestant, in order to comfort a person of that persuasion. I have done so with both troubled people and dying people of the latter two persuasions and am currently adopting the manner and words of a devout Catholic in order to comfort my mother, who is likely not long for this world. To me, it matters not at all that I don't believe what I say. What matters is that someone who does believe is comforted and helped.
I'm not as famliar with non-Christian beliefs, but I think I know enough about Judaism and Islam to be able to offer some comfort to Jews or Muslims in times of trouble, should the need arise. I would certainly give it my best effort, as I would also with people of other religious persuasions.
For myself, about all the comfort I would wish would be the knowledge that those I care about would carry fond memories of me and hopefully benefit in the future from whatever good I have been able to instill in their lives. Knowing that I have positively influenced my daughter's life, and thereby the lives of others she will impact in the future, gives all the value to my life that I need. As long as I have my affairs in order, so that I don't leave her a burden, I can die a happy man, whether it be tonight or fifty years from now.
AHHHHHH but - I never believed in those beings - so no bell has rung. I have no mental gymnastics to do here. ( You might say this is sad - but I'm not sad.)
And your daughter may not believe in God or gods - but she has heard of them. (Just an aside not an argumentative point.)
There's a bit of inconsistancy in your posts doojable.
It looks like you're saying that even though LG's daughter never believed in God, she was influenced by theistic beliefs since she has heard of him, but you're not influenced by "the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars...fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells", even though you've heard of them, since you never believed in them.
LG is presenting his daughter as an example of someone who can be a good, moral person without ever having a belief in a god, and you're doubting that it can be so. I would guess that LG knows his daughter better than either of us.
I don't believe in any sort of deity. That doesn't reflect on my opinion of some religious organizations. I think highly of many of them. Many do a lot of good, both for individuals and for the greater community. I think that some of their basic premises are not well founded and that their notion of God is little more than wishful thinking, but many of the moral structures they have built upon those premises are sound, and could be just as well be based on different premises.
LG,
"Based on different premises." Is that right? If it is, you could possibly:
1. Demonstrate obligation in a non-theistic worldview (i.e. on non-theistic grounds);
or,
2. Describe how a moral structure that is neutral with respect to obligation can be supported.
"Based on different premises." Is that right? If it is, you could possibly:
1. Demonstrate obligation in a non-theistic worldview (i.e. on non-theistic grounds);
or,
2. Describe how a moral structure that is neutral with respect to obligation can be supported.
That's pretty easy, Cynic. I oblige those with whom I deal to deal honestly. If they don't, I respond as I deem appropriate, with measures ranging from simply not dealing with them any more to deadly force. Other people impose similar obligations on those with whom they deal. A stable population can't have people going around harming or killing one another, so society agrees on certain standards and enforces them.
Moral structures do not necessarily depend upon obligation. I don't refrain from murdering my neighbors because of either legal or spiritual obligation. I would consider anyone who doesn't murder because it's against the law or is a sin to be morally deficient.
There might be some that say that morals and ethics among the non-theistic are situational or opportunistic. I would put the same argument back to the theists:
If your god changed his mind, about murder, would you? Or stealing? Or lying? Or adultery?
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ChattyKathy
$*@!tim wood has always cracked me up.
And incense is a wonderful thing although my purpose for using it hasn't always been pure. And it appears smoke genders a variety of thoughts and emotions.
I can't really add to this thread because life without God in it wouldn't be worth my breathing.
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lindyhopper
I must apologize, I have not read all of the thread, maybe 4 pages. So if I repeat a point already brought up, I'm sorry.
I think the way I got to where I am now (well, the begining of that journey) was to stop for a moment and not assume there was a god. That did not suddenly turn my life upside down, nor did the rules of logic force me to disgard every other idea I ever held. Instead, I held on the the many good sound concepts that I knew and asked myself "is this still good without Godand why?" Turns out that most things that are good with a god are good without one. There is still sound reason without a god. It leads to many sound conclusions on why to be a good person and why to not kill your neighbor for no reason at all or why not to with good reason.
For me this process wasn't a painful one. Leaving the ministry was painful for me, but to stop assuming was not. In fact the process has been rather enjoyable and peaceful and fun and enlightening.
There are certain things that each of us value and many of them are probably the same or similar to eachother. Hold on to those things. I will not cheat on my wife becuase I love her and I value her love and I value the relationship we have. I do not want to destroy that or comprimise that so the thought of cheating isn't even entertained. It isn't an option. It isn't a thought. And not because the "Bible tells me so." I value life, both my own and that of others. I take that and act accordingly. These things that I value and base the my actions upon are not really all that situational. They may shift a little here and there, possibly the same way a believer at times has thoughts and actions that aren't quite right on with their beliefs. These values are both something outside myself and wholey in my self and for myself. It serves me to serve others. It helps me to help others. When I act in this way it satisfies the need I have to hold on to the things that I value. It also satisfies the needs of others.
I like what Todd was saying earlier about this being our workshop, our studio. It is a process we go through- finding out what we value and how to secure that value in our life. Sometimes that may be letting go and smashing what was before and realising that vessel was clay and that clay was dirt and that dirt seemed like nothing...
but now you see it to be everything.
Is it God's love you value or is it the concept of love that you value?
Is there a difference and does it matter?
Does the God aspect of it matter?
Or is that god a means to an ends?
I saw a number of people saying things like "if I am wrong I have wasted nothing,
but if an unbeliever is wrong they will have an eternity to"......I don't know, say "my bad".
My moto is: If one unverifiable concept may be true, an infinite number of other unverifiable concepts could also be true.
So I would ask, an unbeliever of what?
You had better be a believer of everything...just in case.
You don't want the "Christians will eternally be poked with cattle prods by the ghosts of very angery cows while being laughed at by small lizard fairies" option to be true.
Just a thought.
and why does this
emoticon say "spy" and not "pot head?" 
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GarthP2000
Lindyhopper,
I think your post is one of the best explanations of how an unbeliever can be just as absolutely moral as I have seen yet. Besides, there are plenty of religious-based morals that are a lot more 'situational' or 'utilitarian' than people realize.
And I love this line: If one unverifiable concept may be true, an infinite number of other unverifiable concepts could also be true.
That alone upends the premise of the Pascal's Wager without a doubt.
Now as to your Question of The Ages: and why does this
emoticon say "spy" and not "pot head?" 
... I dunno. :shrugs smiley:
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templelady
For Me It's God's love I value because it is a constant unwavering presence in my life that I can feel/sense whenever I "look"
There is nothing to compare in human terms, or at least in the Human terms I have experienced on this earth,. All my interactions with "love" vis-a-vis myself and others have been contingent on my being and doing and having what they wanted and needed me to be, do or have. Failure to live up to those expectationshas resulted in immediate cessation of love.
Even in my darkest moments I could sense God's presence--I may have not chosen to embrace it because I wanted something else at the moment but it was always there. ONLY God has unconditional undying love for me.
As for a means to an end --If you mean do I believe that the faithful will get certain rewards in eternity --yes. But if you are asking if the rewards are why I believe--the answer is no--I believe because of the real and tangible love and His presence I feel now and in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
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doojable
Having believed in God - How do you "unring that bell?"
Sure there are all sorts of things that don't loose their meaning "if there is no God," but somewhere in the back of your life there was a belief in God. I'm not so sure that the same would be true had you never known or been exposed to Him. ( I know you might say that I am assuming that there is a Him to have known - but this can be circular to the extreme if we're not careful.)
Giving my two cents - yet again.
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lindyhopper
You are exactly right and wrong. You are making that assumption and it only becomes circular because of it. Without the assumption, there is no circular thinking circulating. I will answer your question anyway, even though you pretty much already did ;) This wasn't a wake up one morning and hit my head on the toilet sort of realization. It took time.
In the ministry your beliefs were to be in "your heart", the seat of your personal life, planted by the waters and shall not be moved, unquestionable. This is not how real life works. At least it is not how it should work- holding your brain hostage to one idea. We were quickly brought from one assumption- "the integrity of the word", to in order to get to the deep stuff you have to go from the milk to meat. Before we knew it there was a lot hanging on a couple of ideas that needed to be believed, solid as a rock, but if you didn't, the whole house of cards came tumbling down. The whole wise man foolish man idea seemed off once I realised that the rock I was building my house on was the "king of hearts." "And the house came tumbling down..." , but I still had all the cards though. Being cards, there wasn't much to cry over. I flipped them right side up to see their face and realised- hey these things are still good for playing Ducky, Slap Jack, Oh Hell, Bullsh!t, and of course Go Fish.
For me, I started questioning things that were bothering me a little and that led to other questions which led to the big ones. Perhaps I am an easy going guy and perhaps I was never as "sold out" as I thought I was, but it became clear to me that these seemingly big quesitons didn't have real answers and that didn't really affect me as a person- who I am - how I act.
Sorry if I don't know that expression, but I can't help but think of Pavlov's dogs. I guess it isn't an unringing but rather realising that perhaps that ringing in my ears was possibly from too many years of "teachers" screaming at me from a podium. Perhaps it was that I realised that the clarity of what I thought was the ringing of the bell of God was really just something called a dial tone.
...Or perhaps once I got to a certian point I realised there was no way to believe in a god without faith and that I had no need of faith. Now sometimes people hear that and think I am being condiscending, like I am better because I don't NEED faith, and you have some sort of deficiency because you do. I'm not. People are different. I don't understand everyone or everything.
Perhaps the biggest thing to get used to was not thinking I knew a lot of things absolutely. Getting comfortable with the idea that I could be wrong on any number of things is a little different from building a house on a rock and being planted by the waters of truth. Then again perhaps it wasn't all that hard. I had grown used to thinking I could be wrong after many years of having to confirm thoughts with leadership and after arriving at a place after asking questions without absolute answers.
Sorry for being long winded, but you guys asked.
I guess in short... I examined that belief in God and realised I didn't believe it and perhaps I never really did.
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lindyhopper
I don't mean to critique your feelings or your beliefs TL, I'm just going to tell what I get from what you wrote.
It seems to me what you value whether it is from God or anyone else is unconditional love or as I call it- love.
"God is love"
Well which is it?
Is love a concept?
Is it a chemical reaction?
Is it a persona?
If so, what other abstract concepts have personas?
It might be good to know.
Personally, the love I have for and from my family is way more unconditional than what I have read about or experienced with the God of the Bible. I feel sad when people say that they don't have that on a human level. It exists.
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LG
My daughter was not raised to believe in God or gods. (I was still trying to sort out what I thought about that during her early years, but I was quite open about my doubts, and became secure in my conclusion that there is no God by the time she was six or seven.) She is now 22 years old and is a better, more loving, more stable person than I was at her age. I actually find myself envying her for that at times.
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doojable
"Unring that bell" is a line used in courts by lawyers. Once a jury heas something it is said that even of instructed to disregard it the cannot really forget ever hearing it.
And your daughter may not believe in God or gods - but she has heard of them. (Just an aside not an argumentative point.)
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templelady
Love is the manifestation of a concept
unconditional acceptance
or Love is the short definition of unconditional acceptance
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GarthP2000
"How do you unring that bell"?
Kinda like when you finally find out that there never was a Santa Claus.
How do you unring that bell, indeed.
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LG
I accept it in that spirit but I'll point out that probably every human being who has ever existed has heard of or contemplated the possibility of gods or other supernatural beings (fairies, spirits of ancestors, etc.).
How does one unring the bell of the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars, and so on? How does one unring fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells?
There's no question that my morals and worldview (and by extension, my daughter's) have been influenced by Christianity, but they have also been influenced by many other things, including cold, rational thought.
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templelady
I am confused--do you really believe that Christians don't employ cold rational thought when applying morality and viewing the world??? The two are not mutually exclusive. Rationality does not depart because you are Christian
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CM
Christianity should also include some of the other religious beliefs of the world to get a more rounded view of the perspective of a god. Eastern religions have been despised in general by the western ones. This should be reconsidered. There are many mutual beliefs between the west and east. One could search it out and see for themselves. Cuz i'm just old clay, generally ignored and not considered one that can help in some manner. But that's alright with me, i don't mind. A few hear.
So for one to take it upon themselves to look and search things out that have been brought up over the past 5 years right here at greasespot takes some doing and undoing.
Like a friggin book i've tryed to document what my main hurtles of faith have been here in these pages. And they can be seen by the new eye. Although i know everyone is different, despite our common experiences in twi. So there is not a common denominator except the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Creater.
Assuming for a moment that there is no God can be healthy and give a different perspective. What parts are missing? Are all the pieces fitting together without a god.
And is this god some external being or is it an internal presence or both?
So starting from scratch, do we ignore things or take them into consideration.
Morals and rational thinking are built into every person. The right to choose is ours.
It hasn't anything to do with religous beliefs but rather the foundation laid from the beginning.
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templelady
And this foundation was laid by??????????????????
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LG
I didn't suggest that Christians are irrational, templelady.
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doojable
AHHHHHH but - I never believed in those beings - so no bell has rung. I have no mental gymnastics to do here. ( You might say this is sad - but I'm not sad.)
It's fine with me if you accept gods of the earth, leprachauns etc. - But I if you don't and are just putting them forth for the sake of the argument - then the point really is mute. I just would find it very difficult to go through life without at least a memory of God, Jesus.
I wonder - is it God you dont' believe in or the organizations that have been representing Him lately?
I do see the value of reevaluating - but personally I couldn't totally forget it all and go through life that way.
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LG
I don't believe in any sort of deity. That doesn't reflect on my opinion of some religious organizations. I think highly of many of them. Many do a lot of good, both for individuals and for the greater community. I think that some of their basic premises are not well founded and that their notion of God is little more than wishful thinking, but many of the moral structures they have built upon those premises are sound, and could be just as well be based on different premises.
I'm not a theist but I'm far from being anti-theist or anti-Christiian. I like much about Christianity. I simply see it as being based on fables. But that's not a bad thing, in my estimation. Fables and other fiction can convey great ideas. I don't have to think that the fables are true in order to appreciate the great ideas they convey.
I know enough about varoius religious beliefs that I can convincingly espouse them. I have on many occasions prayed with people, reminded them of various scriptures they hold dear, and reasoned with them from those scriptures in order to try to build their faith and comfort them in times of trouble, even though I don't personally share their faith. I could and would minister last rites to a dying Catholic, if a priest were not available. I could and would assume the role of a Protestant fundamentalist, in order to comfort a person of that persuasion. I could and would assume the role of a more liberal Prostestant, in order to comfort a person of that persuasion. I have done so with both troubled people and dying people of the latter two persuasions and am currently adopting the manner and words of a devout Catholic in order to comfort my mother, who is likely not long for this world. To me, it matters not at all that I don't believe what I say. What matters is that someone who does believe is comforted and helped.
I'm not as famliar with non-Christian beliefs, but I think I know enough about Judaism and Islam to be able to offer some comfort to Jews or Muslims in times of trouble, should the need arise. I would certainly give it my best effort, as I would also with people of other religious persuasions.
For myself, about all the comfort I would wish would be the knowledge that those I care about would carry fond memories of me and hopefully benefit in the future from whatever good I have been able to instill in their lives. Knowing that I have positively influenced my daughter's life, and thereby the lives of others she will impact in the future, gives all the value to my life that I need. As long as I have my affairs in order, so that I don't leave her a burden, I can die a happy man, whether it be tonight or fifty years from now.
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Oakspear
It looks like you're saying that even though LG's daughter never believed in God, she was influenced by theistic beliefs since she has heard of him, but you're not influenced by "the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars...fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells", even though you've heard of them, since you never believed in them.
LG is presenting his daughter as an example of someone who can be a good, moral person without ever having a belief in a god, and you're doubting that it can be so. I would guess that LG knows his daughter better than either of us.
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CM
who cares anyway?
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Cynic
LG,
"Based on different premises." Is that right? If it is, you could possibly:
1. Demonstrate obligation in a non-theistic worldview (i.e. on non-theistic grounds);
or,
2. Describe how a moral structure that is neutral with respect to obligation can be supported.
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Oakspear
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LG
That's pretty easy, Cynic. I oblige those with whom I deal to deal honestly. If they don't, I respond as I deem appropriate, with measures ranging from simply not dealing with them any more to deadly force. Other people impose similar obligations on those with whom they deal. A stable population can't have people going around harming or killing one another, so society agrees on certain standards and enforces them.
Moral structures do not necessarily depend upon obligation. I don't refrain from murdering my neighbors because of either legal or spiritual obligation. I would consider anyone who doesn't murder because it's against the law or is a sin to be morally deficient.
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Oakspear
LG:
There might be some that say that morals and ethics among the non-theistic are situational or opportunistic. I would put the same argument back to the theists:
If your god changed his mind, about murder, would you? Or stealing? Or lying? Or adultery?
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