All the churches I have been to teach people to get born again and I can't remember if they all teach Romans 10:9,10 specifically, but they do teach confessing Jesus as lord and believing that God raised him from the dead.
Is that what you're asking? ;)
If they don't speak in tongues does that mean they aren't born again?
Yes Belle, as I see the main problem of Christianity is that they lost the mistery. They are very nice people but maybe no born again ones.
They can have wonderfull lives, very "saint" lives without sin, go to church daily, no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance but also no Lord Jesus Christ and no God and no salvation.
Also yes there are a lot of born again people that do not SIT but they are born again.
They can have wonderfull lives, very "saint" lives without sin, go to church daily, no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance but also no Lord Jesus Christ and no God and no salvation.
No alcohol, no homos, no coke, no playboy, no porno, no table dance????? SAY IT AIN'T SO, THEMEX!!! :o
;)
Seriously, I don't know of a church that DOESN'T teach people to get born again. Maybe it's a Mexican thing that people aren't taught correctly how to make Jesus lord in their lives. Pity if that's the case. Glad to hear that you agree that people can be born again without SIT-ting. :)
"They can have wonderfull lives, very "saint" lives without sin, go to church daily, no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance but also no Lord Jesus Christ and no God and no salvation. "
I'd actually be interested in understanding how people can worship a god or follow a religion that would teach that such wonderful people are condemned to hell simply for not being taught or not believing Romans 10:9 and 10.
I'd actually be interested in understanding how people can worship a god or follow a religion that would teach that such wonderful people are condemned to hell simply for not being taught or not believing Romans 10:9 and 10.
Morgan, consider this:
... Adam willfully gave to Satan, all of the authority and his headship and rulership of this world God had conferred upon him - his kingdom - to Satan, in exchange for the wonderful (in his eyes) knowledge Satan would teach him. Didn't Satan try the same thing with Jesus - worship me and I will give you... because it was given to me... Because Adam had done this of his free will, God couldn't take it back from Satan - all was Satan's now - including mankind. It is now his kingdom.
But, there must be something wonderfully inherent in mankind, for God to go to all the trouble to ransom us back from our fallen state - he didn't have to. He could have let mankind and earth wallow in misery and destruction and started over somewhere else. But, I know the Word says our life is hid in Christ, when Christ returns, our true life shall be revealed in us and to us. To me, our sojourn on earth is almost a shadow life, we will not know our true essence, or being, so to speak, until we are with him, and we shall share in his glory and spend an eternity in endless variety, and plumbing the depths of infinite love and knowledge.
I believe Adam was inserted into mankind, as was Christ, at a certain point in time. Adam's divine mission was to communicate and teach and show God to mankind, so God could dwell with mankind and love and fellowship with mankind - as he does with the angels, of whom mankind was made just a little lower than.
Satan was enraged this beautiful planet was made for man - this new creation of God, enraged puny mankind meant so much to God and he did whatever it took to wrest control of it from God. I believe the knowledge that he offered - "you shall be as gods" - was true spiritual knowledge - of an ungodly kind - but it must have been fascinatingly beautiful. We know Satan was the most beautiful of God's creation - he was an angel. I believe he showed Adam and Eve his full glory - it was probably mindboggling. They were told, they too could be as a "god." Thus, Adam and Eve desired this perfection, desired to know the secrets of this beautiful being, desired to be like him, and probably wondered why God himself was withholding this wonderful knowledge from them, and thus, took it upon themselves to "perfect" themselves. I think the moral is, once man decides to "perfect" himself without the true God, we fall. True perfection is looking at the true God and Christ - not delving into the great spiritual "knowledge" of Satan.
So, this rejection of the true God, the desire to "perfect" themselves with the "spiritual knowledge" of the false god, so they too could become "gods" somehow led to a fall. It was catastrophic to God - a total rejection of his love and knowledge.
The consequences of this rejection of God was that man's wonderful humanity, that essence God had in mind for him to manifest, could not come to fruition - thus, for now mankind is fallen.
no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance
>>
Wow. Nobody knows how to have fun anymore !! : :D
I had heard Romans 10:9-10 prior to my Way exerperience and many mainstream churches also used these verses to illustrate the necessary requirements for one to receive salvation. So Romans 10:9-10 is not unique to TWI's teachin on salvation. Those with no significant exposure to christian teaching prior to their Way initiation frequently assume ,(incorrectly), that Romans 10:9 is something taught exclusively by TWI.
Depending on the denomination there might also be references to confessing
one's unworthiness or state as a sinner but I've never heard any church oppose Romans 10:9-10 whereas TWI attempted to make it seem that mainstream churches specifically avoided these verses (typically as a result of being demonically influenced) so I was taught that many people who professed to be christian were not because they didn't specifially acknowledge Romans 10:9-10 as part of their salvation process.
Of course SIT was put forth as proof of one's salvation though I never heard , even in TWI, that absence of SIT meant absence of salvation. Thus it was allowed that some people could be believers yet not SIT. But there was a pretty hard line about Romans 10:9 - if someone hadn't particular knowledge of those verses then TWI philosophy was that there these people were most likely not born again.
It got worse of course. There were people in TWI who professed a particular aptitude for being able to discern if someone was truly born again or not. I knew plenty of Way people who thought like this and they would claim to operate the manifestations to best determine who to speak with when witnessing. On the other hand the whole goal of witnessing was to sign up people (born again or not) for PFAL so this is where TWI greatly differed from most churches. Most mainstream churches and missions want to "save your soul", TWI wants you to take PFAL (all three of them), the supporting classes, go WOW, and Corps.
they just show you about Jesus suffering in the cross and that is their simbol, Christ nailed to the cross defeted by the adversary
Like most of those afflicted with Waybrain, you don't understand what the image of Christ on the cross represents to Catholics. It represents what he endured and suffered for us. It's purpose is NOT to glorify death. It's what he went through so that he could be raised and ascended. All you know is what Wierwille and The Way told you that it meant, and they didn't get it either.
you don't understand what the image of Christ on the cross represents to Catholics. It represents what he endured and suffered for us. It's purpose is NOT to glorify death. It's what he went through so that he could be raised and ascended. All you know is what Wierwille and The Way told you that it meant, and they didn't get it either.
I'd actually be interested in understanding how people can worship a god or follow a religion that would teach that such wonderful people are condemned to hell simply for not being taught or not believing Romans 10:9 and 10.
Yeah, I've always thought that The Almighty must have His nose out of joint for anyone outside of the western world, as there aren't a whole lot of Christians elsewhere.
Our Karate class hosted a bible fellowship that operated the same way word wolf.... Even the issues that one would think were the most devisive, we usually managed to find common ground...and 99 percent of the time we were able to learn something from the others pov.
That is how it happens though when there isn`t any pride or arrogance involved.
I've a church local to me that would surprise themex.
First of all,
BRING YOUR BIBLE.
They TEACH THE BIBLE.
Second of all,
they have a cross.
They have Christ on it.
However, he seems to be ascending directly in FRONT of it.
"Messiah, dead on a cross?"
No,
"Trimphant Anointed One, Ascending to His Father".
It's a Roman Catholic Church.
=====
Will someone please pass a smelling salt under themex's nose?
Thank you for your concern WordWolf but I am not surpirse at all, the RC church is base upon/over syncretism, they "reconcile disparate, even opposing belifes" and act accordingly to the society they are controlling. The RC church of the USA is different from the RC church in Mexico and the RC church in Mexico is different from the Poland. Also the RC church has a lot od different orders and different organizations to its interior. The are very good for politics.
The USA was made from believers, the Pilgrims of/from the original colonies, most of them were believers, Bible believers they were looking form a place to be free and to teach free, the Catholics call them protestants.
So in that regard you have a lot more Bible build society than the rest of the world. So the RC church adapt to your ways. As a form of control. And who invented the syncretism? The Pope? No, the Devil. Does God said... ? Add to God´s Word, change things in God´s Word, adulterate God´s Word.
The Virgen de Guadalupe is a syncretic stuff from the Aztecs with the Catholics. They said and teach that the Virgen de Guadalupe (http://www.virgendeguadalupe.org.mx) is Mother Mary but it is not it is and Aztec deity call Coyolxahutli. The Spanish used to bulid temples over the Aztecs temples, Mexican main cathedral was build over the main temple of the Aztecs. Also we Mexicans are a mixture between Spanish and Aztecs and other american natives.
Pope John Poul II choose the Virgen the Guadalupe to be the symbol of the new evangelization.
TWI, VPW, LCM may be full of baloney (is that the word? or is BS) but you born again with their teachings.
Okay, maybe this is doctrinal, but I do not want a doctrinal discussion- just your opinions.
The RC church that I know here in Mexico teach very few things about the Bible. They just show you about Jesus suffering on the cross and that is their symbol-
Christ nailed to the cross, defeated by the adversary.
The other thing they teach is about Mary,Mother of God, then use to baptize the babies, then they say that then you are born again but that is not the truth either.
The fact is that they do not teach Romans 10:9 and 10.
The Mormons teach a lot of John Smith and the "other" testament of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The JW teach on Revelations and from the Old Testament, they understand that Jesus is not God...
So how are people in the so-called "Christian churches" born again if they do not hear the good news?
All of them are very nice people, also the Buddists and other non-Christian religions.
(Here in Mexico exist a new cult that praise the "holy death". They have a mixture with the RC doctrine,
they are nice too. But being nice makes you Christian?
I won't speak on groups I'm not familiar with. In this case, that means I'll speak on Catholicism.
You said they ONLY show you a defeated, crucified Christ.
I gave an example of one parish that does NOT.
Then you went off about RC history and how all the elements of the organization
are for control.
I'm not going into detail on how it's silly to repeat lcm's "the Pope wants to rule the world",
"the Pope owns an aircraft carrier" rants,
nor how there's no secret meetings on how to take over the world-
neither on a parish, diocesis, archdiocis, nor Vatican level.
I'll get back to the questions you asked.
Now, as to whether the RC church requires membership in the RC church for a Christian
to be saved, that is patently ridiculous.
I was reviewing an entire article on "interchurch" marriages-
marriages between RC and non-RC Christians, and how to make them work.
Not ONCE in the article does it even SUGGEST the other Christian is unsaved,
nor that they're not a "real" Christian until and unless they "come around"
Wordwolf's Catholic threads are interesting reading.
I would like to retract my previous statement, that only through observance of Roman Catholic sacraments maybe one can be saved.
It appears they changed that, and now one does not have to be a Catholic to maybe be saved.
Still, Catholic teaching is clear that salvation comes only by way of good works and sacraments, and even then, there are no guarantees.
God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ alone, doesn't seal it.
I haven't read nearly everything yet, but here is just one quote from the first website Wordwolf supplied:
We believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation because of Jesus’ own words: “No one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit ” (Jn 3:5). However, the Church also rightly teaches that while God binds salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, he himself is not bound by the sacraments (Catechism, #1257). The reason for this is that God would never bind anyone to do what is impossible. For example, infants who die in the womb or at birth before Baptism, aborted and miscarried fetuses, all of whom never had a chance to fulfill Jesus’ command, the Church confidently places in God’s mercy and love. Remember Jesus’ own words, “Let the children come to me, do not prevent them” (Mk 10:14).
There are also those who, while not baptized in water, suffer death for the faith and receive the Baptism of Blood. And even those who, through no fault of their own, cannot come to know Christ, but seek the truth and do the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved (Catechism, #1258-1260). This is called Baptism of Desire. It is important to note that the Church sees salvation open to all by means of one of these three forms of Baptism.
Some Christian denominations by their doctrines indicate salvation for very few people. Our faith opens the possibility of salvation to all. “God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him” (Jn 3:17 ff). John speaks of the whole world. God wants everyone saved! It is, after all, the reason for which he created every person.
The Sacrament of Baptism initiates us into our journey of life with God. It is God who leads and God who guides, and God who waits to embrace us for all eternity.
First, I need to correct a couple of potential, understandable misunderstandings that have been expressed about the Catholic Church on this thread.
A statement was made that the Church teaches that nobody can be saved outside of the Church.
If you understand the words that are being written there, that is an accurate statement. The Catholic Church is the universal church...the bride of Christ...all of Christianity is part of the Catholic Church. There are groups that are unfortunately schismatic with the Church. (Those include groups commonly known as Protestant denominations as well as others) -- but, whether they like it or not, they are part of the Church, even though they are separated from her. To the extent that one of these groups teaches authentic Christianity, one can be saved through the teachings of that group.
For example, the Church received the sacrament of baptism from Christ as the method used by God to wash away all stain of sin, including original sin and to place an indelible mark on the soul of the baptized. Those individuals who are baptized will receive the benefits of baptism, whether they are baptized in a Catholic Church or by a protestant or whatever.
But the key thing to understanding all of this is gaining an understanding that the Catholic Church is THE universal church.
As far as the issue with Our Lady of Guadalupe, it was an apparation given to Blessed Juan Diego. The image on his tilma has defied scientific explanation. There have been almost as many studies done of it as there have been of the Shroud of Turin. The same result happens: the image can't be explained, particularly considering the technology available at the time.
In general, though, adaptations of the liturgy and the attempt to find parallels between existing belief and Christianity is something done by missionaries since they've gone out. In fact, you can see that happening to a degree with the apostle Paul on Mars Hill. It helps the locals understand the concepts -- and I don't see a problem with it.
Here is another quote, regarding salvation of the Jewish people.
It appears the official position of the Catholic Church is that Jews do not have to believe in Christ to be saved.
Here is the quote:
Q: According to a recent news story about a new Catholic-Jewish document, Catholics are no longer interested in converting Jewish people. Was this reported accurately? Who said this and on what authority?
A: You are probably referring to the 12-page document Reflections on Covenant and Mission, published last August and based on an earlier consultation between the National Council of Synagogues and the U.S. Catholic bishops’ Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs.
The March 2002 consultation was co-chaired by Cardinal William H. Keeler of Baltimore (the bishops’ moderator for Catholic-Jewish relations), Rabbi Joel Zaiman (Rabbinical Assembly of Conservative Judaism) and Rabbi Michael Signer (Union of American Hebrew Congregations). It builds on the progress made in Catholic-Jewish relations since Vatican II.
The present document includes a Catholic rejection of targeted campaigns to convert Jewish people. Some Protestant groups have such campaigns. This document acknowledges that some Jewish people have (and others will) become Catholics—and vice versa. Freedom of conscience requires this possibility.
Some Christians have argued that there is no salvation for Jewish people unless they are baptized. Vatican Council II’s Declaration on Non-Christian Religions shows that Catholicism does not share that belief. That declaration cited Romans 11:28-29 and described the Jewish people as “very dear to God, for the sake of the patriarchs, since God does not take back the gifts he bestowed or the choice he made” (#4). This new document quotes Pope John Paul II’s major post-1978 statements about Judaism.
He has described Jews as “the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God” (Mainz, November 17, 1980). The pope has called Jewish people “partners in a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked” (Miami, September 11, 1987).
In Section 50 of his apostolic letter The Church in America (1999), Pope John Paul II declared, “The history of salvation makes clear our [Christians’]special relationship with the Jewish people. Jesus belongs to the Jewish people, and he inaugurated his church within the Jewish nation. A great part of the Holy Scriptures, which we Christians read as the Word of God, constitutes a spiritual patrimony which we share with the Jews.”
The pope continued, “Consequently, any negative attitude in their regard must be avoided, since ‘in order to be a blessing for the world, Jews and Christians need first to be a blessing for each other’” (Address on the 50th Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, April 6, 1993).
In their part of Reflections on Covenant and Mission, the Catholics assert that the Church’s evangelizing task “no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history.”
The Jewish Reflections outline a threefold mission flowing from their covenant with God: formation as a people, witness to God’s existence and redeeming power, a message for more than Jews alone.
After the document’s release, Cardinal Keeler said, “This joint reflection marks a significant step forward in the dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Jewish community in this country.”
Rabbi Gilbert Rosenthal, executive director of the National Council of Synagogues, said: “Neither faith group believes that we should missionize among the other in order to save souls via conversion. Quite the contrary: We believe both faith groups are beloved of God and assured of his grace.” The Jewish Reflections end with suggestions for repairing the damage humans have caused to God’s creation.
Here is a quote that would suggest that one endangers their eternal salvation, by not voting!
:(
Are Catholics Obliged to Vote?
Q: My husband’s family, which immigrated to the United States in the early 1900s, does not vote. They are not even registered. They consider all politicians corrupt and unwilling to follow through with their promises if elected. Thus, they think it is better not to vote.
I believe that as American Catholics we have a moral obligation to vote. I think we should try to vote for candidates who support life and rights for the unborn, poor and uneducated.
I believe we should go to the polls and vote for candidates whom we feel have the best moral background and support Christian ethics. Is there any Catholic document which supports my opinion?
A: I agree with your basic position wholeheartedly. Saying that all politicians are corrupt is simply not true while encouraging the very corruption it deplores.
If your in-laws pay taxes, shouldn’t they accept some responsibility for selecting the legislators who assess them and determine how the money is spent?
In 1965 the bishops at Vatican II approved the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, which says: “The Council exhorts Christians, as citizens of both cities, to perform their duties faithfully in the spirit of the Gospel.
“It is a mistake to think that, because we have here no lasting city, but seek the city which is to come [Hebrews 13:14], we are entitled to evade our earthly responsibilities; this is to forget that because of our faith we are all the more bound to fulfill these responsibilities according to each one’s vocation” [see 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13, Ephesians 4:28] (#43).
The bishops call for avoiding a “pernicious opposition between professional and social activity on the one hand and religious life on the other” (#43). They point out that Christians who shirk their temporal duties shirk their duties toward their neighbors, neglect God and endanger their eternal salvation.
Last year the Catholic bishops in the United States issued Faithful Citizenship: Civic Responsibility for a New Millennium, a pastoral statement on voting and the political process. They wrote:
“In the Catholic tradition, responsible citizenship is a virtue; participation in the political process is a moral obligation. Every believer is called to faithful citizenship, to become an informed, active and responsible participant in the political process.”
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Belle
All the churches I have been to teach people to get born again and I can't remember if they all teach Romans 10:9,10 specifically, but they do teach confessing Jesus as lord and believing that God raised him from the dead.
Is that what you're asking? ;)
If they don't speak in tongues does that mean they aren't born again?
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themex
:wub:
Yes Belle, as I see the main problem of Christianity is that they lost the mistery. They are very nice people but maybe no born again ones.
They can have wonderfull lives, very "saint" lives without sin, go to church daily, no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance but also no Lord Jesus Christ and no God and no salvation.
Also yes there are a lot of born again people that do not SIT but they are born again.
Bless you and Happy new 2006! :wub:
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Belle
Happy New Year to You, Too, Themex!
No alcohol, no homos, no coke, no playboy, no porno, no table dance?????
SAY IT AIN'T SO, THEMEX!!! :o
;)
Seriously, I don't know of a church that DOESN'T teach people to get born again. Maybe it's a Mexican thing that people aren't taught correctly how to make Jesus lord in their lives. Pity if that's the case. Glad to hear that you agree that people can be born again without SIT-ting. :)
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Morgan
"They can have wonderfull lives, very "saint" lives without sin, go to church daily, no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance but also no Lord Jesus Christ and no God and no salvation. "
I'd actually be interested in understanding how people can worship a god or follow a religion that would teach that such wonderful people are condemned to hell simply for not being taught or not believing Romans 10:9 and 10.
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TheInvisibleDan
What's wrong with being "nice"?
As many of us know from the downside of the Way experience -
"Mean people suck".
:o
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oldiesman
"Sunesis"
October 15, 2005
Greasespot Cafe
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diazbro
TheMex said:
<<
no drugs, no alcohol, no homos, no Coca Cola, no sex outside marriage, no Playboy, no porno, no table dance
>>
Wow. Nobody knows how to have fun anymore !! : :D
I had heard Romans 10:9-10 prior to my Way exerperience and many mainstream churches also used these verses to illustrate the necessary requirements for one to receive salvation. So Romans 10:9-10 is not unique to TWI's teachin on salvation. Those with no significant exposure to christian teaching prior to their Way initiation frequently assume ,(incorrectly), that Romans 10:9 is something taught exclusively by TWI.
Depending on the denomination there might also be references to confessing
one's unworthiness or state as a sinner but I've never heard any church oppose Romans 10:9-10 whereas TWI attempted to make it seem that mainstream churches specifically avoided these verses (typically as a result of being demonically influenced) so I was taught that many people who professed to be christian were not because they didn't specifially acknowledge Romans 10:9-10 as part of their salvation process.
Of course SIT was put forth as proof of one's salvation though I never heard , even in TWI, that absence of SIT meant absence of salvation. Thus it was allowed that some people could be believers yet not SIT. But there was a pretty hard line about Romans 10:9 - if someone hadn't particular knowledge of those verses then TWI philosophy was that there these people were most likely not born again.
It got worse of course. There were people in TWI who professed a particular aptitude for being able to discern if someone was truly born again or not. I knew plenty of Way people who thought like this and they would claim to operate the manifestations to best determine who to speak with when witnessing. On the other hand the whole goal of witnessing was to sign up people (born again or not) for PFAL so this is where TWI greatly differed from most churches. Most mainstream churches and missions want to "save your soul", TWI wants you to take PFAL (all three of them), the supporting classes, go WOW, and Corps.
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Morgan
"Morgan, consider this:"
I was in TWI - I have considered it. It still doesn't really satisfy my interest in how people can worship such a god.
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Oakspear
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dmiller
Having been raised Catholic, I have to agree.
Neither twi, nor the catholics got it
in it's entirety.
To both -- it was nothing more than a symbol.
The reality escaped the both of them.
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WordWolf
I've a church local to me that would surprise themex.
First of all,
BRING YOUR BIBLE.
They TEACH THE BIBLE.
Second of all,
they have a cross.
They have Christ on it.
However, he seems to be ascending directly in FRONT of it.
"Messiah, dead on a cross?"
No,
"Trimphant Anointed One, Ascending to His Father".
It's a Roman Catholic Church.
=====
Will someone please pass a smelling salt under themex's nose?
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oldiesman
Well I would say they teach their version of the bible.
The Catholic Church has traditionally held that salvation can be attained, maybe, only through observance of their sacraments.
Maybe.
Therefore, they have set themselves apart as the only true church...
TWI taught simply that salvation comes though belief in Jesus Christ, a la Romans 10:9.
So then which concept is more biblical, or closer to the truth?
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George Aar
Yeah, I've always thought that The Almighty must have His nose out of joint for anyone outside of the western world, as there aren't a whole lot of Christians elsewhere.
Maybe He had a bad experience with wasabi?
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WordWolf
I spent some time among the Roman Catholics I mentioned.
I made it clear I was completely DISinterested in BECOMING one
when the subject was broached.
One guy was convinced I was GOING to become one-
I disabused him of this unambiguously.
After this, I was still quite welcome as before.
NOBODY then said I couldnt join in any reindeer games,
NOBODY then said I must conform or be cast out,
NOBODY then said I must "come around" to their thinking or I couldn't "come around"
to their meetings.
From what I've heard, those pronouncements were common among the 90s and 00's
in twi.
Frankly,
I think the only reason me and Roman Catholicism came up there
was that I seemed to have a passion for Scripture and a passion
for avoiding the "chief seats"-
I knew stuff but made a point not to grab for the spotlight.
So,
a group where I could come and go as I wished,
(where I disagreed with doctrine)
or one where I had to conform
(where I disagreed with doctrine).
Which one demonstrates the love which Jesus said would be how the
world would recognize his followers?
===
Further,
when I was in college,
I spent some time with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.
That's where Christians of a variety of groups all interacted,
WITHOUT busting on each other and playing games of
one-upsmanship.
Their advisor complemented me on knowing some Bible
and never challenged me on having the storied twi arrogance.
Comparing them with twi-even LOCAL, NICE twi in the best
times I had, their attitudes were more accurate than twi.
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rascal
Our Karate class hosted a bible fellowship that operated the same way word wolf.... Even the issues that one would think were the most devisive, we usually managed to find common ground...and 99 percent of the time we were able to learn something from the others pov.
That is how it happens though when there isn`t any pride or arrogance involved.
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themex
Thank you for your concern WordWolf but I am not surpirse at all, the RC church is base upon/over syncretism, they "reconcile disparate, even opposing belifes" and act accordingly to the society they are controlling. The RC church of the USA is different from the RC church in Mexico and the RC church in Mexico is different from the Poland. Also the RC church has a lot od different orders and different organizations to its interior. The are very good for politics.
The USA was made from believers, the Pilgrims of/from the original colonies, most of them were believers, Bible believers they were looking form a place to be free and to teach free, the Catholics call them protestants.
So in that regard you have a lot more Bible build society than the rest of the world. So the RC church adapt to your ways. As a form of control. And who invented the syncretism? The Pope? No, the Devil. Does God said... ? Add to God´s Word, change things in God´s Word, adulterate God´s Word.
The Virgen de Guadalupe is a syncretic stuff from the Aztecs with the Catholics. They said and teach that the Virgen de Guadalupe (http://www.virgendeguadalupe.org.mx) is Mother Mary but it is not it is and Aztec deity call Coyolxahutli. The Spanish used to bulid temples over the Aztecs temples, Mexican main cathedral was build over the main temple of the Aztecs. Also we Mexicans are a mixture between Spanish and Aztecs and other american natives.
Pope John Poul II choose the Virgen the Guadalupe to be the symbol of the new evangelization.
TWI, VPW, LCM may be full of baloney (is that the word? or is BS) but you born again with their teachings.
:blink:
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WordWolf
Since you missed me, I'll try again.
Here's your initial post.
(I corrected spelling and grammar for you.)
I won't speak on groups I'm not familiar with. In this case, that means I'll speak on Catholicism.
You said they ONLY show you a defeated, crucified Christ.
I gave an example of one parish that does NOT.
Then you went off about RC history and how all the elements of the organization
are for control.
I'm not going into detail on how it's silly to repeat lcm's "the Pope wants to rule the world",
"the Pope owns an aircraft carrier" rants,
nor how there's no secret meetings on how to take over the world-
neither on a parish, diocesis, archdiocis, nor Vatican level.
I'll get back to the questions you asked.
Now, as to whether the RC church requires membership in the RC church for a Christian
to be saved, that is patently ridiculous.
I was reviewing an entire article on "interchurch" marriages-
marriages between RC and non-RC Christians, and how to make them work.
Not ONCE in the article does it even SUGGEST the other Christian is unsaved,
nor that they're not a "real" Christian until and unless they "come around"
and become Catholics.
Here's the article.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0690.asp
So, getting that from a CATHOLIC source, I would judge then that
CATHOLICS tell other CATHOLICS that NON-CATHOLICS are SAVED.
=====
On, then, to salvation....
What do Catholics say on salvation?
Well, you'd need to know what they say about God's grace.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1000.asp
Then here's some stuff on who will be saved.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0494.asp
Here's some general stuff they believe and teach-
which sounds VERY different than what you were taught in twi.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0888.asp
Finally, can only Catholics be saved?
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/...003/Wiseman.asp
After reading all that,
it seems obvious to me that they're clear that salvation is thru
Christ only.
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themex
Thank you for the spelling and Grammar correction, from several years I have not writte in English.
Also thank you for the links, I am going to read them.
But what about the syncretism?
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WordWolf
I'm not answering EVERYTHING in ONE post.
If you'll arrange for a steady paycheck for me for posting on the GSC,
then I'll see to responding to EVERYTHING much faster.
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oldiesman
Wordwolf's Catholic threads are interesting reading.
I would like to retract my previous statement, that only through observance of Roman Catholic sacraments maybe one can be saved.
It appears they changed that, and now one does not have to be a Catholic to maybe be saved.
Still, Catholic teaching is clear that salvation comes only by way of good works and sacraments, and even then, there are no guarantees.
God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ alone, doesn't seal it.
I haven't read nearly everything yet, but here is just one quote from the first website Wordwolf supplied:
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themex
okey, when ever you want or can. :D
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markomalley
TheMex, et al:
First, I need to correct a couple of potential, understandable misunderstandings that have been expressed about the Catholic Church on this thread.
A statement was made that the Church teaches that nobody can be saved outside of the Church.
If you understand the words that are being written there, that is an accurate statement. The Catholic Church is the universal church...the bride of Christ...all of Christianity is part of the Catholic Church. There are groups that are unfortunately schismatic with the Church. (Those include groups commonly known as Protestant denominations as well as others) -- but, whether they like it or not, they are part of the Church, even though they are separated from her. To the extent that one of these groups teaches authentic Christianity, one can be saved through the teachings of that group.
For example, the Church received the sacrament of baptism from Christ as the method used by God to wash away all stain of sin, including original sin and to place an indelible mark on the soul of the baptized. Those individuals who are baptized will receive the benefits of baptism, whether they are baptized in a Catholic Church or by a protestant or whatever.
But the key thing to understanding all of this is gaining an understanding that the Catholic Church is THE universal church.
As far as the issue with Our Lady of Guadalupe, it was an apparation given to Blessed Juan Diego. The image on his tilma has defied scientific explanation. There have been almost as many studies done of it as there have been of the Shroud of Turin. The same result happens: the image can't be explained, particularly considering the technology available at the time.
In general, though, adaptations of the liturgy and the attempt to find parallels between existing belief and Christianity is something done by missionaries since they've gone out. In fact, you can see that happening to a degree with the apostle Paul on Mars Hill. It helps the locals understand the concepts -- and I don't see a problem with it.
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oldiesman
Here is another quote, regarding salvation of the Jewish people.
It appears the official position of the Catholic Church is that Jews do not have to believe in Christ to be saved.
Here is the quote:
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oldiesman
Here is a quote that would suggest that one endangers their eternal salvation, by not voting!
:(
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