No -I'm not. If I were your mother you'd be different. I'm just trying to be one of those"multitude of counselors" the Word speaks about - but hey if you like beng in the middle of a fire fight - well that's up to you.. -bye - i'm done
Did I read right on this thread? There are a few here that do not care about the Bible anymore? If that is true, did TWI have anything with turning you off to it?
If so, could anyone think to check out some other church or ministry?
Did I read right on this thread? There are a few here that do not care about the Bible anymore? If that is true, did TWI have anything with turning you off to it?
If so, could anyone think to check out some other church or ministry?
I haven't read any of this thread, but, I want to tell you that I have always loved sex, still love sex, and hope to keep on loving it for a very long time! My Wifey feels the same way, and no viagra needed!
The Way certainly taught me a lesson in how to use the Bible to control and abuse people. It redefined love into something ugly and hoop jumping.
Somewhere along the way I lost my trust and enjoyment of the Bible and Christian God in general. Can't pin point when or where, expect it was a cumulation of years of stuff. To me, it screams--this is unsafe, stay away.
We checked out a local splinter group and a long distance splinter group for a couple of years. I thought I should stay Way like in belief.
Then we got involved with two churches, both of which were friendly and non abusive and not demanding, offered alot to their congregation. Not bad experiences at all. I just felt no sense of belonging or healing, safety or relief. I went because I thought I should stay Christian.
I had a library card and used it alot.
I considered the people I've known, loved, admired and hated--and could see no dividing line that put the born again Christians on the good side, and the awful people on the other. In fact, due to our long years in TWi, there were quite a few born agains on the dark side.
The people who were warm, loving, healing to be around, affirming, admirable etc to me during this time were not Bible believers.
I decided I didn't have to be Christian, in my experience it was not the truth I saw in life around me... I moved on.
Doojables question was does anyone have anything to add to the actual thread topic..?
I havent seen any except for what I posted about TWI current and 'new' leadership.
Threads like this seem to send Rascals and Excies heads spinning and careening back into some sort of time warp repeatedly..maybe they should ignore any topics that have 'sex', 'VP', 'abuse' etc.. included in them ?
If I was your father or father in the word whatever you want to call it I would send you all to your rooms till you can all play nicely together again (and to you your mother and me some time alone and in peace)
So everyone - learn to play nicely or don't come play here anymore!
Somewhere along the way I lost my trust and enjoyment of the Bible and Christian God in general. Can't pin point when or where, expect it was a cumulation of years of stuff. To me, it screams--this is unsafe, stay away.
Bramble - your post is almost a carbon copy of where I'm at as well- including the splinter group and church experiences (though we only tried one).
The people who were warm, loving, healing to be around, affirming, admirable etc to me during this time were not Bible believers.
I have also experienced this - but have found that there are some very nice bible-believing people who keep their preaching to themselves - which, IMO, is a very loving thing to do!
I never want anyone to tell me what I should believe in ever again.
Themex -- as far as the topic goes-- I haven't read all the posts but I need to clarify your question --
Are you asking about former TWI leaders who currently have their own offshoots? Or is the question "How many TWI leaders FOLLOWED the sex doctrine of VPW" when they were in leadership positions in TWI?
As I wrote on another thread about splinter groups:
When I left TWI I wanted nothing to do with any splinter group. The majority of the people who were running them were leaders back in the "good old days" of TWI (which weren't really so damn good). Many if not all of them knew about the sexual misconduct of the MOG - and some even participated in the same misconduct. Even if they didn't do the same but knew about it and did or said NOTHING, they are culpable - guilty by association - whatever.
At one time they either agreed with or ignored the sins of their father-in-the-void. I have heard that one of these men has publicly admitted and apologized for his actions, though I haven't heard or read it myself. Great - thanks - now go get a real job.
I have nothing against Excathedra.... but when it comes to VP she's this hospice patient who never actually dies; not buying it.
from allan
Threads like this seem to send Rascals and Excies heads spinning and careening back into some sort of time warp repeatedly..maybe they should ignore any topics that have 'sex', 'VP', 'abuse' etc.. included in them ?
Well the reality here is that John advocates the use of physical violence against women to resolve domestic problems yet he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian. But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian. Don't forget that he feels this way. He has been presented with numerous opportunities to deal with this but he doesn't. Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement. The last time he was confronted , he disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged. The funny thing is that he will eventuallly blow his top. He always does.
quote: he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian.
This is not a Christian website. I could care less if you or anybody else thinks I'm Christian or not.
quote: But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian.
Is that so? During the late 80s I worked as an asst mgr for a fast food chain. The man who signed my paychecks owned something like 25 stores. He had a large spread of property with a house on it somewhere north of town. Well, one day his wife got in a car and drove all over the property trying to run him over and kill him. OK, Mr. self righteous, what would you have done? Let her run you over? What an idiot!
All my posts were in the context of women abusing men. Some here don't apparently want to acknowledge that this exists. Not just women, but some male stooges like yourself, Diazbro. Under ANY circumstances???? I'll tell you what I'D do.
In my way of thinking, if my wife tried to kill me I'd have basically 2 choices:
1) abandon the marriage as unsalvageable and immediately turn the matter over to third parties (police, psychiatrists, lawyers, etc.)
2) fight for her
I can't just say I'd automatically do either one under ANY circumstances; it would depend on exactly what happened and how I perceived the situation, but my first choice would be to fight for her. So if I fight for her, I'm supposed to reason with someone who just tried to kill me? C'mon, genius, what would you do? (now we're probably going to see you as the one who is evasive).
Speaking of which, it seems to me, Diazbro, that you NEVER post anything about yourself as having a family or spouse or any kind of relationship. Most people here if they have even a tenth as many posts as you do...then you know if they're married or have kids or whatever, but you just never seem to reveal anything about yourself like that. This leaves a lot open to the imagination. Are you gay? married? Divorced? Did she take you to the cleaners BAD?
I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to.
If you don't want to post about your personal life, that's your business, but don't you be telling ME what I should or should not talk about here.
quote: Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement.
I have no problems with minority advancement, just minority RACISM! There's a difference.
quote: disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged.
We had computer problems we kind of dragged our feet about fixing and then when GSC changed servers or whatever they did I couldn't post for awhile because I didn't get the email about the temporary password. I was not waiting for anything to "blow over".
Diazbro, you are one of the posters here who uses GSC as a spitoon for your rage.
Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they’d never be able to handle the things of God.
LCM did, who else?
The last post (I'm seeing)
quote: he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian.
This is not a Christian website. I could care less if you or anybody else thinks I'm Christian or not.
quote: But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian.
Is that so? During the late 80s I worked as an asst mgr for a fast food chain. The man who signed my paychecks owned something like 25 stores. He had a large spread of property with a house on it somewhere north of town. Well, one day his wife got in a car and drove all over the property trying to run him over and kill him. OK, Mr. self righteous, what would you have done? Let her run you over? What an idiot!
All my posts were in the context of women abusing men. Some here don't apparently want to acknowledge that this exists. Not just women, but some male stooges like yourself, Diazbro. Under ANY circumstances???? I'll tell you what I'D do.
In my way of thinking, if my wife tried to kill me I'd have basically 2 choices:
1) abandon the marriage as unsalvageable and immediately turn the matter over to third parties (police, psychiatrists, lawyers, etc.)
2) fight for her
I can't just say I'd automatically do either one under ANY circumstances; it would depend on exactly what happened and how I perceived the situation, but my first choice would be to fight for her. So if I fight for her, I'm supposed to reason with someone who just tried to kill me? C'mon, genius, what would you do? (now we're probably going to see you as the one who is evasive).
Speaking of which, it seems to me, Diazbro, that you NEVER post anything about yourself as having a family or spouse or any kind of relationship. Most people here if they have even a tenth as many posts as you do...then you know if they're married or have kids or whatever, but you just never seem to reveal anything about yourself like that. This leaves a lot open to the imagination. Are you gay? married? Divorced? Did she take you to the cleaners BAD?
I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to.
If you don't want to post about your personal life, that's your business, but don't you be telling ME what I should or should not talk about here.
quote: Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement.
I have no problems with minority advancement, just minority RACISM!
There's a difference.
quote: disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged.
We had computer problems we kind of dragged our feet about fixing and then when GSC changed servers or whatever they did I couldn't post for awhile because I didn't get the email about the temporary password. I was not waiting for anything to "blow over".
Diazbro, you are one of the posters here who uses GSC as a spitoon for your rage.
Well, one day his wife got in a car and drove all over the property trying to run him over and kill him. OK, Mr. self righteous, what would you have done? Let her run you over? What an idiot!
This is a false dilemma. Or a stupid example. I don't think anyone ever said to not defend oneself from physical violence by a woman. One would be an idiot to let oneself be run over simply becuase it was a woman behind the wheel. Not only is this a false dilemma, but it's a strawman: you take a position that Diazbro didn't take, argue against it, and then call him an idiot for holding the position that he didn't take.
All my posts were in the context of women abusing men
Perhaps, but you included verbal harrassment as an excuse for "clocking her like she deserves". As I recall, it was something about a man's superior physical strength countering a woman's biting tongue (I'm paraphrasing), and a woman's verbal sniping being a justification for the man to hit her.
I don't know about this "can't be a Christian" business, but you have publically come out in favor of violence against women outyside of self-defense
Dmiller: Good point. As I recall, the first poster was asked for verification, then admitted he got his info from a JAL letter, then said he wanted his own verification if this was true or not. I don't think we should name names here, but if VP did in fact say what the first post says he said, then I'd like to know if any GSers were in attendance.
Oakspear: quote: you have publically come out in favor of violence against women outyside of self-defense
I really don't think that responding to being verbally assaulted for an extended period of time is outside of self defense. Remember Reagan telling that reporter to shut up? What do you think would've happened to him if he hadn't? I don't have secret service agents in my house to enforce my "mandates". Do you think I'd still be married after 17 yrs if I routinely looked for reasons to physically abuse those in my household?
As for the position Diazbro "didn't take", he said "under ANY circumstances" didn't he?
Routinely? Oh just so long as it is only occasionally eh ? <_<
I guess that you learned well in twi.....Behave in an outragious manner and then scream bloody murder when people confront you on your rediculous behavior.
Sure, blame it on everybody else John and then you won`t be faced with the need to change.
It is easy...but certainly not honest, you are decieving yourself.
Rascal, you're a bully! You're telling people what they saw, even if they didn't see it. You're telling people how to think, even if they don't think it. Do you have any idea how offensive you are? Get some help.
Oh John you set up the most bizarre situation to justify your views on violence against women. Your early post on this topic (in the Yates thread) related specifically to "swatting the fly" as if a woman complaining in the home deserves that kind of behavior. So you are now trying to act like that wasn't what you meant. Instead you desribe some exceptional situation you witnessed during your illustrious fast food career which evidently made quite an impression on you so now you are apparently ready for violence against women at a moment's notice. You can never predict when a woman will try yo run you over now can you John ? Happens at least 100 times a day ? I dont know John maybe you have a reason to fear reprisals from your wife but aside from that you are just using an exceptional situation to justify your mysogny and we both know it. Just as you did with some of the racial incidents you described in previous threads.
The point here you want to be recognized as the valid substitute for the absent Wierwille. Did you get a vision John ? Were you at the gas pumps one day and it started to snow and then Vic descended from above with his coffee cup of drambuie (which he spilled on poor Tic's head), and said "John, My heart is heavy Son, No one wants to carry on my legacy so will you do it ? Thanks. And oh by the way watch out for women trying to run you over in the parking lot". Was that how it went John ?
Lastly John, I have no idea what you mean here:
""I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to."
At what point was advice submitted on "child raising [sic]" ? Are the seams starting to burst John ? Will I soon "burn in the lake of fire" as you once said I would ? Save me John. Save me brother.
So anyway, We have established that wierwille HAD a sex doctrine that was contrary to what he taught the rest of the ministry.....
There were many many leaders who subscribed to it.....I have mixed thoughts about revealing them now...on the one hand, many of them have probably changed.....on the other ..some of these guys are participants in exway groups.....and need to be confronted if they still practice this damaging doctrine.
We know that according to numerous people, Chris Geer was a fascillitator of wierwille`s worst perversions ... and yet he still maintains that he is a minister/teacher/leader of God`s people.
Even a lot of the guys we really liked didn`t have a problem with the doctrine....they just didn`t seem to hurt as many people.
I can name the much loved lc/rc that chased my wow sis around the desk every time she had to meet w/ him.
But I am reluctant....it was 20 yrs ago.....it would impact his wife and family now.....
We know that some members of the bot ..according to the records on John Juades`s sight ....he got vp.`s cast asides.....
There have been accounts here through the years of various leaders some we liked some we didn`t who were participants.
This doctrine was one of vpw`s core beliefs......it hurt a LOT of people....people even died because of it`s practice.
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doojable
No -I'm not. If I were your mother you'd be different. I'm just trying to be one of those"multitude of counselors" the Word speaks about - but hey if you like beng in the middle of a fire fight - well that's up to you.. -bye - i'm done
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Eagle
Did I read right on this thread? There are a few here that do not care about the Bible anymore? If that is true, did TWI have anything with turning you off to it?
If so, could anyone think to check out some other church or ministry?
Just curious.
Eagle
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Oakspear
1. You read right
2. There are a few
3. Yes
4. No thanks
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J0nny Ling0
I haven't read any of this thread, but, I want to tell you that I have always loved sex, still love sex, and hope to keep on loving it for a very long time! My Wifey feels the same way, and no viagra needed!
JL
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rascal
Doojable, I was just goofing, making fun of myself acting childish...... I didn`t mean to be disrespecfull og you or your comments at all :) .
Your imput is always apreciated.
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Bramble
Eagle:
The Way certainly taught me a lesson in how to use the Bible to control and abuse people. It redefined love into something ugly and hoop jumping.
Somewhere along the way I lost my trust and enjoyment of the Bible and Christian God in general. Can't pin point when or where, expect it was a cumulation of years of stuff. To me, it screams--this is unsafe, stay away.
We checked out a local splinter group and a long distance splinter group for a couple of years. I thought I should stay Way like in belief.
Then we got involved with two churches, both of which were friendly and non abusive and not demanding, offered alot to their congregation. Not bad experiences at all. I just felt no sense of belonging or healing, safety or relief. I went because I thought I should stay Christian.
I had a library card and used it alot.
I considered the people I've known, loved, admired and hated--and could see no dividing line that put the born again Christians on the good side, and the awful people on the other. In fact, due to our long years in TWi, there were quite a few born agains on the dark side.
The people who were warm, loving, healing to be around, affirming, admirable etc to me during this time were not Bible believers.
I decided I didn't have to be Christian, in my experience it was not the truth I saw in life around me... I moved on.
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Allan
Doojables question was does anyone have anything to add to the actual thread topic..?
I havent seen any except for what I posted about TWI current and 'new' leadership.
Threads like this seem to send Rascals and Excies heads spinning and careening back into some sort of time warp repeatedly..maybe they should ignore any topics that have 'sex', 'VP', 'abuse' etc.. included in them ?
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Out There
If I was your father or father in the word whatever you want to call it I would send you all to your rooms till you can all play nicely together again (and to you your mother and me some time alone and in peace)
So everyone - learn to play nicely or don't come play here anymore!
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Hope R.
I have also experienced this - but have found that there are some very nice bible-believing people who keep their preaching to themselves - which, IMO, is a very loving thing to do!
I never want anyone to tell me what I should believe in ever again.
Themex -- as far as the topic goes-- I haven't read all the posts but I need to clarify your question --
Are you asking about former TWI leaders who currently have their own offshoots? Or is the question "How many TWI leaders FOLLOWED the sex doctrine of VPW" when they were in leadership positions in TWI?
As I wrote on another thread about splinter groups:
Anyway - I hope my opinion is on topic
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excathedra
from john
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penguin
Excie,
I admire you for telling your story---I don't think I would have stopped my werewolf worship without it!
BTW I am now blissfully taking advantage of the ignore feature regarding 2 posters on this thread. :D
Now I can stop doing this===
Back to my newly happy self
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diazbro
Well the reality here is that John advocates the use of physical violence against women to resolve domestic problems yet he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian. But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian. Don't forget that he feels this way. He has been presented with numerous opportunities to deal with this but he doesn't. Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement. The last time he was confronted , he disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged. The funny thing is that he will eventuallly blow his top. He always does.
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johniam
quote: he wishes to be acknowledged as a christian.
This is not a Christian website. I could care less if you or anybody else thinks I'm Christian or not.
quote: But it simply is not possible for one to be an advocate of violence against women (under ANY circumstance) and also be called a christian.
Is that so? During the late 80s I worked as an asst mgr for a fast food chain. The man who signed my paychecks owned something like 25 stores. He had a large spread of property with a house on it somewhere north of town. Well, one day his wife got in a car and drove all over the property trying to run him over and kill him. OK, Mr. self righteous, what would you have done? Let her run you over? What an idiot!
All my posts were in the context of women abusing men. Some here don't apparently want to acknowledge that this exists. Not just women, but some male stooges like yourself, Diazbro. Under ANY circumstances???? I'll tell you what I'D do.
In my way of thinking, if my wife tried to kill me I'd have basically 2 choices:
1) abandon the marriage as unsalvageable and immediately turn the matter over to third parties (police, psychiatrists, lawyers, etc.)
2) fight for her
I can't just say I'd automatically do either one under ANY circumstances; it would depend on exactly what happened and how I perceived the situation, but my first choice would be to fight for her. So if I fight for her, I'm supposed to reason with someone who just tried to kill me? C'mon, genius, what would you do? (now we're probably going to see you as the one who is evasive).
Speaking of which, it seems to me, Diazbro, that you NEVER post anything about yourself as having a family or spouse or any kind of relationship. Most people here if they have even a tenth as many posts as you do...then you know if they're married or have kids or whatever, but you just never seem to reveal anything about yourself like that. This leaves a lot open to the imagination. Are you gay? married? Divorced? Did she take you to the cleaners BAD?
I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to.
If you don't want to post about your personal life, that's your business, but don't you be telling ME what I should or should not talk about here.
quote: Nor does he wish to deal with racial issues except to talk about how "sick and tired" he is about minority advancement.
I have no problems with minority advancement, just minority RACISM! There's a difference.
quote: disappeared for a few months thinking that it would blow over and now he has re-emerged.
We had computer problems we kind of dragged our feet about fixing and then when GSC changed servers or whatever they did I couldn't post for awhile because I didn't get the email about the temporary password. I was not waiting for anything to "blow over".
Diazbro, you are one of the posters here who uses GSC as a spitoon for your rage.
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dmiller
The first post (this thread)
The last post (I'm seeing)
In the words of Jerry Garcia ---
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been." :(
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Oakspear
Since we're already derailed...
This is a false dilemma. Or a stupid example. I don't think anyone ever said to not defend oneself from physical violence by a woman. One would be an idiot to let oneself be run over simply becuase it was a woman behind the wheel. Not only is this a false dilemma, but it's a strawman: you take a position that Diazbro didn't take, argue against it, and then call him an idiot for holding the position that he didn't take. Perhaps, but you included verbal harrassment as an excuse for "clocking her like she deserves". As I recall, it was something about a man's superior physical strength countering a woman's biting tongue (I'm paraphrasing), and a woman's verbal sniping being a justification for the man to hit her.I don't know about this "can't be a Christian" business, but you have publically come out in favor of violence against women outyside of self-defense
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johniam
Dmiller: Good point. As I recall, the first poster was asked for verification, then admitted he got his info from a JAL letter, then said he wanted his own verification if this was true or not. I don't think we should name names here, but if VP did in fact say what the first post says he said, then I'd like to know if any GSers were in attendance.
Oakspear: quote: you have publically come out in favor of violence against women outyside of self-defense
I really don't think that responding to being verbally assaulted for an extended period of time is outside of self defense. Remember Reagan telling that reporter to shut up? What do you think would've happened to him if he hadn't? I don't have secret service agents in my house to enforce my "mandates". Do you think I'd still be married after 17 yrs if I routinely looked for reasons to physically abuse those in my household?
As for the position Diazbro "didn't take", he said "under ANY circumstances" didn't he?
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rascal
Routinely? Oh just so long as it is only occasionally eh ? <_<
I guess that you learned well in twi.....Behave in an outragious manner and then scream bloody murder when people confront you on your rediculous behavior.
Sure, blame it on everybody else John and then you won`t be faced with the need to change.
It is easy...but certainly not honest, you are decieving yourself.
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johniam
Rascal, you're a bully! You're telling people what they saw, even if they didn't see it. You're telling people how to think, even if they don't think it. Do you have any idea how offensive you are? Get some help.
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rascal
Moi? :P
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Tom Strange
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oldiesman
Time to take a break
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GarthP2000
Johniam,
Ahh, try having a guy tell that to the judge when he's charged with physical spousal abuse after she harps on him time after time.
Not outside self-defense?? Please tell me that you aren't that out-to-lunch. Please!
:o
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diazbro
Oh John you set up the most bizarre situation to justify your views on violence against women. Your early post on this topic (in the Yates thread) related specifically to "swatting the fly" as if a woman complaining in the home deserves that kind of behavior. So you are now trying to act like that wasn't what you meant. Instead you desribe some exceptional situation you witnessed during your illustrious fast food career which evidently made quite an impression on you so now you are apparently ready for violence against women at a moment's notice. You can never predict when a woman will try yo run you over now can you John ? Happens at least 100 times a day ? I dont know John maybe you have a reason to fear reprisals from your wife but aside from that you are just using an exceptional situation to justify your mysogny and we both know it. Just as you did with some of the racial incidents you described in previous threads.
The point here you want to be recognized as the valid substitute for the absent Wierwille. Did you get a vision John ? Were you at the gas pumps one day and it started to snow and then Vic descended from above with his coffee cup of drambuie (which he spilled on poor Tic's head), and said "John, My heart is heavy Son, No one wants to carry on my legacy so will you do it ? Thanks. And oh by the way watch out for women trying to run you over in the parking lot". Was that how it went John ?
Lastly John, I have no idea what you mean here:
""I often marvel how the most adamant, self appointed experts on child raising always seem to be people who have no kids of their own. And here you are...telling me all about relationship ettiquette when you have no relationship of your own. At least, not one you're not too ashamed of to ever refer to."
At what point was advice submitted on "child raising [sic]" ? Are the seams starting to burst John ? Will I soon "burn in the lake of fire" as you once said I would ? Save me John. Save me brother.
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rascal
So anyway, We have established that wierwille HAD a sex doctrine that was contrary to what he taught the rest of the ministry.....
There were many many leaders who subscribed to it.....I have mixed thoughts about revealing them now...on the one hand, many of them have probably changed.....on the other ..some of these guys are participants in exway groups.....and need to be confronted if they still practice this damaging doctrine.
We know that according to numerous people, Chris Geer was a fascillitator of wierwille`s worst perversions ... and yet he still maintains that he is a minister/teacher/leader of God`s people.
Even a lot of the guys we really liked didn`t have a problem with the doctrine....they just didn`t seem to hurt as many people.
I can name the much loved lc/rc that chased my wow sis around the desk every time she had to meet w/ him.
But I am reluctant....it was 20 yrs ago.....it would impact his wife and family now.....
We know that some members of the bot ..according to the records on John Juades`s sight ....he got vp.`s cast asides.....
There have been accounts here through the years of various leaders some we liked some we didn`t who were participants.
This doctrine was one of vpw`s core beliefs......it hurt a LOT of people....people even died because of it`s practice.
I`d say that made it big deal :(
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