quote: Back in the early eighties I remember an interim corps girl(11th corps I think) tell me there was a passage in the gospels where Jesus came to a town and the women ministered to him sexually.She never showed me the passage and I did try to find it with my Youngs...I figured it was something someone of her corps busddies had researched. Now I'm not so sure! Maybe it was a line--she was a cute girl.
I'm guessing the verse was Luke 8: 2&3 - and certain women which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called magdalene, out of whom went 7 devils, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Ministered sexually???? I always took that to mean that since the Pharisees put people out of the synagogue for believing that Jesus was the Christ, and that meant that those people couldn't buy or sell in the marketplace, that certainly then Jesus himself couldn't buy or sell either, so he needed people who COULD buy and sell to help him out from time to time with perhaps articles of clothing and things like that. THAT'S what ministering to him of their substance meant. Didn't Jesus have to fulfill the law? Didn't the law forbid sex outside of marriage? What do I know?
Rascal, I think you've met your match; Diazbro could probably list 100 of my sins.
John, John, I don' t know about listing your sins. You aren't so interesting as to warrant that much effort though you do love attention even if its of the negative kind. You don't possess even basic respect for women necessary to discuss issues such as marital morality much less christian behavior.
(You also have a very real problem with race but lets just keep that one on the backburner for now). So please don't attempt to discuss biblical view points on marriage when you feel its acceptable to resort to physical violence to resolve domestic arguements. I guess because Clint Eastwood did it in a movie then it makes it alright ? Or was it Paul Newman ? How comforting it is to know you look to Hollywood to validate your mysogyny. What's missing in your life John ? You want your own ministry don't you ? Is that it ? You want to call the shots ? Be like VPW ? You can be honest here.
If Johniam is correct with the reference about Luke 8:2-3, it's all too believable -- particularly with the KJV translation.
"ministered to him with all of their substance"
With the sexually twisted interpretation that the spiritual "biggies" applied to Bible, it makes sense that they'd teach that to justify their lecherous behavior.
I can just hear it now:
Those women ministered to Jesus with all of their substance. The literal according to usage of substance is "all that they are, with their entire bodies." Obviously a eumphamism for taking care of Jesus' physical needs so that he could minister God's word to the people. You, ladies, are called to do the same, since the MOG is the one standing in the gap today.
[OK, so where is the *puke* smiley]
(Oh, btw, for the record, the word rendered 'substance' in the archaic language of KJV is the greek word 'huparchonta' (verb participle), from the roots hupo (under) and archo (first) -- it means 'what one has')
How in the world they could possibly arrive at sexual 'service' from that is beyond me.
In most of the twigs I ran, this "ministering sexually" doctrine of VP's didn't need to be taught. It seemd a natural by-product of the closeness developed, although I never took advantage of its "availability", as I felt it was not "God's Primary Will" ...
"Back in the early eighties I remember an interim corps girl(11th corps I think) tell me there was a passage in the gospels where Jesus came to a town and the women ministered to him sexually"
It seems to me that when LCM did athletes of the Spirit that he spoke about Jesus allowing women to touch him. (Annointing heim with oil, kssing his feet, using their hair to wipe his feet, etc.) He insinuated that they might have been attracted to him physically - but I think that the way LCM taught allowed a lot of people to fill in the blanks. I was in the 11th corps and I didn't hear that teaching other than the way I just gave it to you.
Oddly enough, during the Corinthians Corps night teachings either Dr or W*lter C&mmings taught explicitly that it was WRONG for a man to touch a woman other than his wife in a sexual manner.
Now, I wonder how people got around that......?"
Oh, that's easy!
They taught BOTH at DIFFERENT TIMES!
That way, an innocent hears the SECOND one, and says
"they never taught women were to prostitute themselves to the mog"
and hardcore apologists could say
"Those of you who heard this and still thought they taught
the other thing are lying or mistaken. How COULD they teach
ONE thing and the OPPOSITE?"
Worked pretty effectively, too.
Some people are a decade out or more and still saying it.
My question would be when did Solomon "get revelation" to write the books still included in the cannon of the Bible? I would think (this is opinion only) that it would have been at the beginning of his reign before he got distracted and spiritually off.
If his books were written before his errors, then ok. Then the BIG difference between Solomon and vpw is that most of what vpw taught and researched he did while exploiting young women sexually and cheating on his wife. That would disqualify him from being a leader in the church--he wasn't even qualified to be a deacon let alone a bishop!!! (You all talk about all the alcohol he was constantly drinking--anyone ever see him drunk?) No wonder he talked about sin is sin--there are no big verses little. (Remember the big "X" and little "x"?
And yes Oldies I agree with you that these sins are some of the reasons twi is in the state it is today.
at this point, some of those I know that did have this same mental posture have since died, changed and/or no longer proclaim to be a leader....so what's the point of dividing between mistress and wife. I could list names, but why, so they can be judged -- I think I will let God handle that. Have you got a difference in your heart towards women that were decieved over a woman that was married and deceived in a different way. Bottom line is that it was not right...
Excathedra: I'm really not trying to be cruel or insensitive to you and others by posting this stuff; it's just that...VPW will never appear before a court in this world. That option is not at stake. What IS possible is that at some point in the hereafter...some angel or even God Himself or whoever would handle that stuff, might read GSC posts to VPW and ask him what's up with that. Something like that could be interesting.
Plus, you have literally DOZENS of avid supporters here who will drop everything and rush to your side at the slightest sign of discomfort. I don't play that role here. I know I'm in the minority, but sometimes a perspective like mine can be a word fitly spoken. Merry Christmas. I hope you're having a good day.
A word fitly spoken? Don`t fool yourself buddy.....your comments serve only to defend a man who`s cruel actions harmed your sisters grievously.
The man is dead ok?....Your sisters are still present here, your comments are cruel.....So be it...people are free to be as big a booger as you please .....But for God`s sake please, at least be honest about what you are doing...... don`t EVEN act like there is anything beneficial or Godly about the thinly disguised insults....or calloused indifference and lack of regard you have for wierwilles victims.
I understand that you need for wierwille to be ok so that you don`t have to think beyond the warm little cocoon of his doctrine. .... but to minimalise his evil, OR it`s impact on our lives, OR the far reaching contamination that his actions had on the doctrine he taught or his ability to recieve the things of the spirit...... is to decieve yourself.
Yeah..try and point something out and the 'clicky' minions rush to each others aid. No wonder they never stood on their own two feet against 'waybraining' and are still trying to get over things 20 years later.
It's pretty sad.
These are the same people who put their hand on their heart and accuse someone of being 'insensitive' 'hardhearted' etc..if you disagree with them, yet if they disagree with you fire personal insults and everything else your way.
Where I come from that's still called 'hypocricy'.
So Mark O..do the Cathoilic priests 'twist' "suffer not the little children to come to me.." scripture ??!!
Plus, you have literally DOZENS of avid supporters here who will drop everything and rush to your side at the slightest sign of discomfort. I don't play that role here.
well since dear shar supported me, i went back to read what you said
the slightest sign of DISCOMFORT ? how insulting. i don't need anyone to rush to my side. i've handled all my life since i was about 4 years old. so what if i started reaching out in the last few years. i guess wierwille never told YOU he would heal you with god's love and then screwed you. don't tell me about "the slightest sign of discomfort"
and another thing, i don't care what role you play here
and another thing, i don't care what role you play here
I've been on the receiving end of his type of role play Excie, as you well know from our talks. He could never be on the receiving end himself, as he is the perp, never the victim. He is the one who enjoys giving the pain, that's where his pleasure lies, not in the receiving of it. His posts clearly show that to any of VP's victims. He's getting off on your pain. Please don't let him have that from you.
Let me know the next time you are in the Phoenix area JohnIam. I got a nice pair of cuffs and a horsewhip with your name on them. We'll play swat the fly .. you get to be the fly.
Excie is a beautiful, big hearted woman and she doesn't need any clique to defend her. She does have a lot of wonderful friends who will speak out when they see someone such as yourself, who is so low as to try to try to take the digusting things VP did to certain women and turn them, so they look like it was all the woman's fault. Give it up. Anyone who reads here with the brains God gave a worm knows that VP was the pervert and the women were his victims.
One of the more relentless, dominating agendas is that VP sinned and never repented
In all likelihood -----
Especially the *repenting* part.
and therefore his words cannot be trusted as God inspired
docvic's *words* were gleaned from other ministries.
he taught what others researched as his own work.
If they were God inspired,
it had little (if anything) to do with him.
and also that he couldn't possibly have been a man of God.
Well -- a corrupt politician is still a politician.
Just not the politician he knew to be.
Or maybe so -- hmmm.
MOG just a title (in docvic's case)
confered upon himself, by himself.
His actions confirm that it was *title* only.
I abundantly reject this agenda. Along with Oldies, Mike, and some others, I believe VPs words should be judged on their own merit, without this annoying interruption of what his sins were.
What docvic taught may have changed your life John
(it gave me a new perspective to things too),
but given the *annoying interruptions* that seem to have been part of
his daily life FOR DECADES kinda puts the MOG idea on ice.
And I'm not running to anyone's defense here,
nor am I discounting what you say
just because it is you that said it.
I am just saying what should be obvious to everyone.
People (in all walks of life) are judged by their actions, not just by what they say.
Actions are usually not validated by what is said.
But often, what is said is invalidated by actions.
Docvic said one thing, and then did another.
Telling the truth about that hardly qualifies as an *agenda* (imo).
BikerBabe...Better be careful about the offer with the cuffs and horsewhip...I suspect that some of these wierwille apologists might actually enjoy this type of treatment...afterall, look at the degradation and humiliation that they subject themselves to by worshipping the cornfield preacher.
It seems apparent to me that Vic, besides other things, was a serial abuser. Seeking young, naive girls to either seduce or drug...There's no defense of his actions and those who try, are sad little people.
A person doesnt even have to know Exie and what she went through to know that you sir, are a pri*ck! You, like the leadership in TWI, Dont give a rats a*s about God's people. how phucked up can a mans mind really be?
BikerBabe...Better be careful about the offer with the cuffs and horsewhip...I suspect that some of these wierwille apologists might actually enjoy this type of treatment...
LOL. Hey Groucho. I did think of that after I posted the comment about the cuffs. For those that aren't aware of this .. my husband is a retired police officer. I tend to do handcuff jokes and do in fact have 2 pairs of them I use as locks on my wheelchair, so when I have to leave it unattended at the hospital, a nurse can't just walk off with it thinking it's one of theirs.
This doesn't distract from the disgust John's posts on this matter caused me.
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johniam
quote: Back in the early eighties I remember an interim corps girl(11th corps I think) tell me there was a passage in the gospels where Jesus came to a town and the women ministered to him sexually.She never showed me the passage and I did try to find it with my Youngs...I figured it was something someone of her corps busddies had researched. Now I'm not so sure! Maybe it was a line--she was a cute girl.
I'm guessing the verse was Luke 8: 2&3 - and certain women which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called magdalene, out of whom went 7 devils, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Ministered sexually???? I always took that to mean that since the Pharisees put people out of the synagogue for believing that Jesus was the Christ, and that meant that those people couldn't buy or sell in the marketplace, that certainly then Jesus himself couldn't buy or sell either, so he needed people who COULD buy and sell to help him out from time to time with perhaps articles of clothing and things like that. THAT'S what ministering to him of their substance meant. Didn't Jesus have to fulfill the law? Didn't the law forbid sex outside of marriage? What do I know?
Rascal, I think you've met your match; Diazbro could probably list 100 of my sins.
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diazbro
John, John, I don' t know about listing your sins. You aren't so interesting as to warrant that much effort though you do love attention even if its of the negative kind. You don't possess even basic respect for women necessary to discuss issues such as marital morality much less christian behavior.
(You also have a very real problem with race but lets just keep that one on the backburner for now). So please don't attempt to discuss biblical view points on marriage when you feel its acceptable to resort to physical violence to resolve domestic arguements. I guess because Clint Eastwood did it in a movie then it makes it alright ? Or was it Paul Newman ? How comforting it is to know you look to Hollywood to validate your mysogyny. What's missing in your life John ? You want your own ministry don't you ? Is that it ? You want to call the shots ? Be like VPW ? You can be honest here.
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markomalley
Bramble/Mstar/doojable/Johniam
If Johniam is correct with the reference about Luke 8:2-3, it's all too believable -- particularly with the KJV translation.
"ministered to him with all of their substance"
With the sexually twisted interpretation that the spiritual "biggies" applied to Bible, it makes sense that they'd teach that to justify their lecherous behavior.
I can just hear it now:
[OK, so where is the *puke* smiley]
(Oh, btw, for the record, the word rendered 'substance' in the archaic language of KJV is the greek word 'huparchonta' (verb participle), from the roots hupo (under) and archo (first) -- it means 'what one has')
How in the world they could possibly arrive at sexual 'service' from that is beyond me.
Guess I'm not spiritual enough for that...
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tomtuttle1
In most of the twigs I ran, this "ministering sexually" doctrine of VP's didn't need to be taught. It seemd a natural by-product of the closeness developed, although I never took advantage of its "availability", as I felt it was not "God's Primary Will" ...
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WordWolf
Oh, that's easy!
They taught BOTH at DIFFERENT TIMES!
That way, an innocent hears the SECOND one, and says
"they never taught women were to prostitute themselves to the mog"
and hardcore apologists could say
"Those of you who heard this and still thought they taught
the other thing are lying or mistaken. How COULD they teach
ONE thing and the OPPOSITE?"
Worked pretty effectively, too.
Some people are a decade out or more and still saying it.
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penguin
My question would be when did Solomon "get revelation" to write the books still included in the cannon of the Bible? I would think (this is opinion only) that it would have been at the beginning of his reign before he got distracted and spiritually off.
If his books were written before his errors, then ok. Then the BIG difference between Solomon and vpw is that most of what vpw taught and researched he did while exploiting young women sexually and cheating on his wife. That would disqualify him from being a leader in the church--he wasn't even qualified to be a deacon let alone a bishop!!! (You all talk about all the alcohol he was constantly drinking--anyone ever see him drunk?) No wonder he talked about sin is sin--there are no big verses little. (Remember the big "X" and little "x"?
And yes Oldies I agree with you that these sins are some of the reasons twi is in the state it is today.
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washingtonweather
johniam,
at this point, some of those I know that did have this same mental posture have since died, changed and/or no longer proclaim to be a leader....so what's the point of dividing between mistress and wife. I could list names, but why, so they can be judged -- I think I will let God handle that. Have you got a difference in your heart towards women that were decieved over a woman that was married and deceived in a different way. Bottom line is that it was not right...
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johniam
quote: I think I will let God handle that
So will I, but VPs ministry changed my life. No amount of finger pointing will negate that.
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excathedra
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johniam
Excathedra: I'm really not trying to be cruel or insensitive to you and others by posting this stuff; it's just that...VPW will never appear before a court in this world. That option is not at stake. What IS possible is that at some point in the hereafter...some angel or even God Himself or whoever would handle that stuff, might read GSC posts to VPW and ask him what's up with that. Something like that could be interesting.
Plus, you have literally DOZENS of avid supporters here who will drop everything and rush to your side at the slightest sign of discomfort. I don't play that role here. I know I'm in the minority, but sometimes a perspective like mine can be a word fitly spoken. Merry Christmas. I hope you're having a good day.
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rascal
A word fitly spoken? Don`t fool yourself buddy.....your comments serve only to defend a man who`s cruel actions harmed your sisters grievously.
The man is dead ok?....Your sisters are still present here, your comments are cruel.....So be it...people are free to be as big a booger as you please .....But for God`s sake please, at least be honest about what you are doing...... don`t EVEN act like there is anything beneficial or Godly about the thinly disguised insults....or calloused indifference and lack of regard you have for wierwilles victims.
I understand that you need for wierwille to be ok so that you don`t have to think beyond the warm little cocoon of his doctrine. .... but to minimalise his evil, OR it`s impact on our lives, OR the far reaching contamination that his actions had on the doctrine he taught or his ability to recieve the things of the spirit...... is to decieve yourself.
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johniam
quote: you have literally DOZENS of avid supporters here who will drop everything and rush to your side at the slightest sign of discomfort.
See what I mean?
Like you speak for everybody, Rascal?
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justloafing
she spoke for me ;)
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Allan
Yeah..try and point something out and the 'clicky' minions rush to each others aid. No wonder they never stood on their own two feet against 'waybraining' and are still trying to get over things 20 years later.
It's pretty sad.
These are the same people who put their hand on their heart and accuse someone of being 'insensitive' 'hardhearted' etc..if you disagree with them, yet if they disagree with you fire personal insults and everything else your way.
Where I come from that's still called 'hypocricy'.
So Mark O..do the Cathoilic priests 'twist' "suffer not the little children to come to me.." scripture ??!!
(watch where those stones are thrown)!!
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excathedra
god johnnyam and allan, for me it really isn't about winning support or anything nor am i in a clique - quite the opposite i think
i talk about my own experience -- and yes it was really horrible when people trashed me for my experience -- and no it doesn't happen like it used to
but i have always and still am speaking for myself
merry christmas to you
yeah i guess you have a point there, allanLink to comment
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WhiteDove
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excathedra
hey you two whitedove !!!!
i mean "too" :wub:
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sharon
but you are
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excathedra
the slightest sign of DISCOMFORT ? how insulting. i don't need anyone to rush to my side. i've handled all my life since i was about 4 years old. so what if i started reaching out in the last few years. i guess wierwille never told YOU he would heal you with god's love and then screwed you. don't tell me about "the slightest sign of discomfort"
and another thing, i don't care what role you play here
merry christmas damn it
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BikerBabe
I've been on the receiving end of his type of role play Excie, as you well know from our talks. He could never be on the receiving end himself, as he is the perp, never the victim. He is the one who enjoys giving the pain, that's where his pleasure lies, not in the receiving of it. His posts clearly show that to any of VP's victims. He's getting off on your pain. Please don't let him have that from you.
Let me know the next time you are in the Phoenix area JohnIam. I got a nice pair of cuffs and a horsewhip with your name on them. We'll play swat the fly .. you get to be the fly.
Excie is a beautiful, big hearted woman and she doesn't need any clique to defend her. She does have a lot of wonderful friends who will speak out when they see someone such as yourself, who is so low as to try to try to take the digusting things VP did to certain women and turn them, so they look like it was all the woman's fault. Give it up. Anyone who reads here with the brains God gave a worm knows that VP was the pervert and the women were his victims.
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dmiller
What docvic taught may have changed your life John
(it gave me a new perspective to things too),
but given the *annoying interruptions* that seem to have been part of
his daily life FOR DECADES kinda puts the MOG idea on ice.
And I'm not running to anyone's defense here,
nor am I discounting what you say
just because it is you that said it.
I am just saying what should be obvious to everyone.
People (in all walks of life) are judged by their actions, not just by what they say.
Actions are usually not validated by what is said.
But often, what is said is invalidated by actions.
Docvic said one thing, and then did another.
Telling the truth about that hardly qualifies as an *agenda* (imo).
David
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GrouchoMarxJr
BikerBabe...Better be careful about the offer with the cuffs and horsewhip...I suspect that some of these wierwille apologists might actually enjoy this type of treatment...afterall, look at the degradation and humiliation that they subject themselves to by worshipping the cornfield preacher.
It seems apparent to me that Vic, besides other things, was a serial abuser. Seeking young, naive girls to either seduce or drug...There's no defense of his actions and those who try, are sad little people.
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jackdaniels
John,
A person doesnt even have to know Exie and what she went through to know that you sir, are a pri*ck! You, like the leadership in TWI, Dont give a rats a*s about God's people. how phucked up can a mans mind really be?
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BikerBabe
LOL. Hey Groucho. I did think of that after I posted the comment about the cuffs. For those that aren't aware of this .. my husband is a retired police officer. I tend to do handcuff jokes and do in fact have 2 pairs of them I use as locks on my wheelchair, so when I have to leave it unattended at the hospital, a nurse can't just walk off with it thinking it's one of theirs.
This doesn't distract from the disgust John's posts on this matter caused me.
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