How many TWI leaders follow the sex doctrine of VPW?

[excathedra]

thanks i'm sorry i emphasized the word "ONCE" because you know this guy was slick and i don't want to appear better than any other gal EVER

there should be no shame when you're taken over by a spiritual leader

i think it's my own shame that made me use that word "once"

@(%* him and everyone who looks like him

i'll talk to god in that hereafter about sin. until then i don't give a sh it

one more thing, i have been "sinful" and such in other relationships. veejerkoffpee just doesn't fit in that category. how dare anyone think he should be put in the peer thing

[johniam]

There are many agendas on GSC. One of the more relentless, dominating agendas is that VP sinned and never repented and therefore his words cannot be trusted as God inspired and also that he couldn't possibly have been a man of God.

I abundantly reject this agenda. Along with Oldies, Mike, and some others, I believe VPs words should be judged on their own merit, without this annoying interruption of what his sins were.

Three books in the bible are credited to Solomon. One he compiled (Proverbs) and two he wrote (Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon). Yet, he multiplied wives to himself, he multiplied silver and gold to himself, he multiplied horses to himself, he went to Egypt for the purpose of multiplying horses to himself, all of which were forbidden in the law (Deut. 17) plus he worshipped other gods and he oppressed the people. So much so that when the people requested that his son, Rehoboam, go easier on them and were refused, the people seceded from the union and formed their own country.

Yet God still included three books in His word written by this guy. Why, we'd a never thought eet. Solomon's writings when he was thinking clearly were allowed to stand on their own merit. By God, no less. PFAL brought the bible down to earth as opposed to in a galaxy far away. Not just for me but for many others.

Excathedra, think about those 300 wives and 700 concubines Solomon had for a minute. When they weren't having sex with Solomon, they were stuck doing menial jobs and weren't allowed to mingle with anyone outside the palace. No chance at having a career or a family of their own.

Some exway clergy think Solomon may not have eternal life. I don't care either way, but God will take care of Solomon and VP. Some part of you has to know that.

Edited December 22, 2005 by johniam

[excathedra]

johnnyam

this annoying interruption of what his sins were.

you kind of upset me right there

i have nothing to say about where he'll be in the hereafter. hell where will i be ?

as far as the books brought to us by whomever, i told you i'm not concerned with bible stuff. just trying to show what a sleezeball wierwille was

hey are you an arc ?

[excathedra]

ps. i hate to beat a dead man of god

but what do y'all naysayers think my positive spin should be ?

[rascal]

John you are not displaying the love of God that one would expect of a brother in Christ to his sister who had been raped by a man who claimed to represent God`s will for her life.

You appear to be so blinded by your defense of a man`s actions because you are invested in his doctrine.....that you appear to be oblivious to the cruel way in which you treat your supposed sister in Christ. You would prefer to discredit her, dismiss her importance in order to give this man`s words credence.

Your lack of compassion for folks who have been deeply wounded by this mans actions...and instead even reverencing him leads one to question your ability to comprehend our responsibilities as Christians.

Ex, I don`t know what to say other than after your testimony that someone simply refuses to *get it*....that it is a tragic example of where adherance to this mans doctrines and classes will eventually take some one.

It always seems like the fiersest defendants of wierwille are the most calloused when it comes to their brothers and sisters.... I guess that it is a good thing that God doesn`t seem to see us as necessary collateral damage to a ministry.....according to the scriptures, we are each precious to him.

Not to be treated as a product to be consumed and cast away as garbage when our usefullness is exhausted :(

[socks]

Solomon? I prefer the "David" excuse, I mean allegory metaphor-comparison rationale personally. It's got legs, David's an easier wash.

Solomon was cool, though. You gotta admit, the man wrote the original version of "I Did It My Way". And he had the moxie to recognize upfront all his stuff was likely to go to a bunch of Dead-Head relatives who'd spend it all on Cheetos, chicks and dirt bikes after he was gone. Which might have done him proud, except he wouldn't have been around to enjoy it anymore.

All is vanity. ...coming soon to a church near you.....Just when you thought it was safe to die, enter............................the inheritors!!

Edited December 22, 2005 by socks

[dmiller]

Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they’d never be able to handle the things of God.

Shucks -- I never heared that one (what SNS tape was it on)??

Good thing I never did -- my wife woulda *clocked* me big time!

[justloafing]

I am with Exi on this. Throw out the bible verses here. If vp had any guts he would not have touched anyone. It is a story like Exi's that still makes me think they(twi) does not believe a damn thing of what they teach. It is all for power over people and the love of money. Oh and lets not forget a piece of "tail" when ever they saw a person like Exie that needed help. OMG Exie he showed you the love of God. No wonder they wont let people(exway) go visit his grave site. I would pi$$ on it. Then find LCM's house and put dog poop in a bag and set it on fire and watch him come out and stomp on it.

Just totally disgusting and wrong. For you bible thumpers out there. Take the good book and throw it away and think with your heads and quit making up excuses for these trashy foot people. Quit trying to defend the wrong.

Edited December 22, 2005 by justloafing

[tomtuttle1]

Is it really possible that some people honestly do not, or cannot, see common sense in their hearts??

The older I get, the more I realize how much I don't know, and the more I question the notion that most people, when presented with either life or death, would choose life.

To not FEEL for another person, to not even CARE about what you do TO someone else and how it effects them, is in my estimation worse than the "conscience seared with a hot iron"...

Yeah, God IS great. Some people s uck. As VP would say, "Choose your ruts carefully..."

[act2]

Is it just me or do other posters read something and then your mind goes back in time to remember things that have been buried, or at least, almost 'pushing up daisies' (Thanks DMiller!!).

This thread caused me to remember something: Yes, one of my TC's did tell me that it was ok to have sex with someone outside of marriage. I was so shocked that I really can't remember his reasoning. I truly put it out of my mind, until now.

Also, I was telling my sis about the 'sex thing' and she happened to run into another ex-twi person who was 'in' during the mid-70's and she said she & her hubby went to Limb for counseling and that it was COMMON knowledge that the LC had MANY women. Well, dumb me, I was shocked again!!!!!!!!!!

It was WAY (pun intended) more common than ANY of us little twiggies thought it was.

Edited December 22, 2005 by act2

[rascal]

Act 2 When I found out that I was pregnant on the wow field, I left I assuming of course that I was a disgrace.... and notified my lc that I wouldn`t be entering the corpes that fall....assuming of course that my actions were reprehensible, shamefull, that I had behaved in a truly immoral fashion.

Well I was found and asked to come to the limb....I couldn`t even hold my head up I just sat there staring at the floor mute in my shame.

The astonishing thing was that the lc didn`t seem to even think it was a big deal....said that having sex wasn`t the sin...however it WOULD be, if I allowed the consequences to prevent me from keeping my committment to God... now THAT would be the shamefull and inexcusable thing. I must not break that vow of service to God.

Everything was to be forgiven I could rejoin my wow family and continue in the corpes program just as soon as the little problem was *delt* with.

I was so stunned, it never dawned on me that I hadn`t completely disgraced myself. That was the first incling I had that sex outside of marriage wasn`t frowned on.

Edited December 22, 2005 by rascal

[act2]

I know what you mean, rascal. Yeah, take care of that 'little problem' and keep your commitment to GOD. hahaha.... yeah, to GOD, right!!!!! How naive I was. And so many others. Too bad it took us so long to see that we were just furthering twi's agenda, NOT GOD'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is precisely why I tell anyone who may be the least bit interested about this website.

[rascal]

Act don`t EVEN get me started on how angry I am that twi insisted that God almighty who had done everything for me .......desired/required for me to kill that baby in order to keep a promise to him.

A few years later down the road, I was now married, my husband and I called our lc to anounce that I was pregnant .... I guess we must have sounded rather shell shocked....because he greeted the news with the rather odd comment of .... .. well it`s a *keeper* isnt it?

In hind sight it seems so calloused to casually refer ones baby as a *keeper* verses one that you would throw away.....but I think that was the mindset taught due to the *first breath* doctrine.

Edited December 22, 2005 by rascal

[justloafing]

Act don`t EVEN get me started on how angry I am that twi insisted that God almighty who had done everything for me .......desired/required for me to kill that baby in order to keep a promise to him.

A few years later down the road, I was now married, my husband and I called our lc to anounce that I was pregnant .... I guess we must have sounded rather shell shocked....because he greeted the news with the rather odd comment of .... .. well it`s a *keeper* isnt it?

Was that the same LC?

[rascal]

No

The thing is....these lc`s both of them were incredibly loving and kind....and seemed to honestly believe that they really were helping me do the right/wisest thing.

They were doing the best they could according to how they had been instructed....Even now, my anger does not lie with them.....but in the false doctrine and standard that we were taught.

Edited December 22, 2005 by rascal

[justloafing]

Loose Lips <_<

[diazbro]

Lets keep in mind that John has an attitude that feels that it is acceptable to "clock women" should they complain too much. He compares this activity to "swatting the fly". So bothersome women should be clocked and they are like flies at least in the world of John.

He respects cinematic rerpresentations of this type of behavior and seems to confuse hollywood with reality (see below). The following quotes are his from the "Yates Conviction Overturned" thread. John if you want to talk about what is right and wrong lets first talk about why you think its right to "clock women". I don't think you are qualified to talk about any other issues until you clear this up. I notice you disappeared for quite a while before returning to the board but the issue hasn't gone away. This is VERY serious stuff and if you REALLY believe any of this you should seek help.

johniam said:

>>

"If a fly or mosquito buzzed in your ear for several seconds at a time you'd probably swat at it involuntarily until it stopped. That's not violent or abusive, it's merely being human and needing your space. I personally believe that 90% of so called domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman. They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.......the only defense that man has is to either flee his own house, or clock her like she deserves. But how convenient it's illegal for him to do that. So he stews for awhile until he can't take it anymore and then "swats the fly" and gets put in jail. Who will dare hold the woman responsible for causing this?

I cannot think of more respected actors today than Paul Newman and Clint Eastwood. Each has long been able to accept or reject any part of any script submitted to them. Yet both men have movies where their characters hit women. Eastwood did it in both "The Gauntlet" (1977) and "Sudden Impact" (1981). Newman did it in "The Verdict" (1982).

>>

So John when you watch movies do you sit there waiting for the "woman clocking" scene ? Does that "make your day" ?

Edited December 22, 2005 by diazbro

[rascal]

Whew...I HAD forgotten that one Diazbro......This mindset would tend to flush ones credibility as a christian right down the toilet.

Edited December 22, 2005 by rascal

[WordWolf]

Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they’d never be able to handle the things of God.

LCM did, who else?

Well,

this was hardly a public, "official" statement.

vpw carefully chose who he said this to.

A number of the top people heard him,

a smaller number was complicit in some degree,

even fewer did it.

Of course that "few people" was FAR too many.

Rozilla herself was one of the people "complicit"

in that she helped vpw get ahold of the women.

How vpw acted on this HIMSELF was varied.

The most basic way he did this was on-grounds.

He had a home, he had an office, and he had a

camper "office" set up for sleeping.

He had arranged a place for sleeping when his

house was RIGHT THERE.

(AND he could have driven one of the golf carts

around if he thought it was too far, and he

considered one of the carts "MY STUFF.")

vpw had all corps applicants submit an

autobiographical (life-story) report called

"from birth to the corps."

Many people NOW think that he read these

reports and singled out reports of women

who had suffered sexual abuse in the past.

They think this because it is known that

previous sexual victims are often easier

for other sexual predators to victimize

later. They also think this because the

results WERE that the women who

reported this in their reports WERE

consistently primary targets for his

sexual predation.

So,

women were told they were on-grounds

to be their best for God, and this man

had a special connection to God

(God spoke to him and gave him

imaginary snow-twice and so on),

and thus was a trustworthy Christian

and NOT a sexual predator.

Then,

a number of "odd coincidences" would

happen. A woman would be singled

out coincidentally, and be called into

vpw's camper. One of a number of

things would happen then, but the

ultimate goal was for vpw to rape them.

A number showed reluctance or ran out.

So, he refined his technique.

He started serving drugged drinks to

women, and they started passing out

alone with him in the room,

and waking up with that disgusting man

doing disgusting things.

There were other scenarios, but that

was the MOST COMMON. When he was

on the road, it was different.

========

Now then,

he also had "cleanup crews."

Some people existed on staff-

or as Region or Limb leaders

or their wives-

who would look out for his

victims, and stop them from

talking. Those who seemed

ready to talk despite that

were kicked out of twi

IMMEDIATELY-including

off-grounds if they were

ON grounds-

and IMMEDIATELY her

reputation was savaged.

Everyone was told they

were "possessed" and no

one was to ever contact

her or communicate with

her in any way.

That having been said,

despite victims having come forth,

and some people having witnessed the

"cleanup crew" in operation in progress,

there are STILL some people who will claim

it's all a lie.

Of course,

this, in and of itself, does not affect his

doctrine.

HOWEVER,

given his record of self-serving doctrine--

like "all the women in the kingdom

belong to the king", "no condemnation",

teaching AGAINST the tithe when he was

in a denomination but teaching FOR

the tithe when the money was coming

to him,

it DOES mean that each doctrine SHOULD

be examined for self-interest.

Further,

the premeditated nature of what he did

(he had to plan a lot to arrange it)

indicates he lacks the proper character

to serve in ANY capacity among Christians

OR of trust of any kind.

THAT doesn't affect his doctrine-

but I don't respect conmen and rapists,

and I don't heed their doctrine.

I can't trust him when he opens his mouth.

Sometimes he MIGHT speak truth,

but I'd rather get truth from a RELIABLE

source.

[oldiesman]

A few other things about Solomon that you probably already know:

He was faithful to the Lord early in life, it was later in his life that he screwed up royally.

He had some 1,000 wives, and many who worshipped idols, which was forbidden.

Solomon built shrines to his wives' idols.

To give homage to his wives and please them, he himself participated in the worship of these idols.

This was very bad stuff, I'm sure you know.

Each of these idols were connected with appalling practices...

For instance, the idols Chemosh and Molech required human sacrifice of children, or infants, in their worship.

Solomon introduced much sin to Israel, DESPITE God's great blessings to Solomon.

God gave him great wisdom, wealth, security, health, etc; but Solomon blew it and it cost him lots of blessings.

**************************

All this speaks loudly to me when I think of VP's sins.

All the blessings God bestowed upon VP and us, many genuine Godly blessings, didn't guarantee VP's and doesn't guarantee our faithfulness to Him.

I think it is correct that TWI was ultimately ruined because of VP sins, both doctrinal and practical.

[themex]

So let me get this right. we are talking about a quote in a letter by John Lynn about something that VPW supposedly said. Since he died before this was written he can neither confirm nor refute it.

Sorry themex. I think that heresay like this will cause you to lose credibility.

That is exactly why I started this topic, to corfirm it authenticity. LCM did and follow this teaching and that he has sexual intercourse whit different woman is a fact. I also want to know how rooted it is.

[Bramble]

Back in the early eighties I remember an interim corps girl(11th corps I think) tell me there was a passage in the gospels where Jesus came to a town and the women ministered to him sexually.She never showed me the passage and I did try to find it with my Youngs...I figured it was something someone of her corps busddies had researched. Now I'm not so sure! Maybe it was a line--she was a cute girl.

[themex]

There are many agendas on GSC. One of the more relentless, dominating agendas is that VP sinned and never repented and therefore his words cannot be trusted as God inspired and also that he couldn't possibly have been a man of God.

I abundantly reject this agenda. Along with Oldies, Mike, and some others, I believe VPs words should be judged on their own merit, without this annoying interruption of what his sins were.

If we are going to judge VPW work, we need to know the truth of God´s Word and the truth of the facts.

I think tha VPW did a good job, PFAL was not all his work, he has hundreds of teachings. But he was human, he sined and LCM also sined and that affects the God´s word movement today. It is very importan to clarify this things to go on. To continue whit our lives and the quest for rightly dividing the Word.

[excathedra]

i heard from martindale's own mouth that veepee told him he needed to loosen up in that area if he was gonna' be a great for god. something like that... a real lover of god's people maybe.... trying to remember

Edited December 23, 2005 by excathedra

[mstar1]

Yes, one of my TC's did tell me that it was ok to have sex with someone outside of marriage. I was so shocked that I really can't remember his reasoning. I truly put it out of my mind, until now.

I had something similar come out of the mouth of a branch coordinator--He looked forward to the day when all 'needs' could be taken care of within the twig,--- if you catch my drift.

He said it wasn't happening because people were not 'spiritually mature enough' and also had 'loose lockboxes' :blink:

He went so far as to tell me certain single women in the branch who should 'serve'.

I had been in so long by then that it took me about a year or so to realize he was a total nutjob and ignoramous-then I finally left for good.

I can't say if he came up with this idea himself or not but I do know he was a Corps grad and claimed to have been very close to Wierwille

Edited December 23, 2005 by mstar1