Yup! IF you adhere to the scriptures ..... they state clearly that fornication AND adultery are dead wrong, no wiggle room period :(
Also there are the scriptures recomending that we obey the laws of the land....and according to THIS countries laws....having 7 wives is illegal as well.
Well not to mention the moral aspect of putting your wife/ the mother of your children at risk (WITHOUT her knowledge or consent) of contracting a miriad of std`s....some incurable, and some that might even cause her death .....by simply *breaking an agreement* with 6 mistresses :(
It nausiates me to even consider the selfishness or implications of such actions or that one could even ASK the question in the first place.
Oh HAAAAYULL no ....that should never EVER be forgotten or allowed to be hidden again.... THAT was the ultimate betrayal of vpw`s responsibility, position and authority Ex....it was, and still is, and always BE a big frigging deal
Rascal: Are you aware that Byunga Nyoka Simbi (sp) the one time TWI leader in Zaire has 7 wives? Which 6 should he give up for Jesus?
Socks: As for the original question, I don't know who besides LCM bought this doctrine and apparently neither does anyone else.
So lets keep counting up peoples' sins again. Gee this is fun. I got 2 so far: selfishness, and implications of such actions, whatever that is. Keep 'em coming.
So you didn`t REALLY want an answere to your morality question did you John?
What Bayunga did was not contrary to the laws of HIS country.....
Even so, it is illegal and irrelevent in THIS context.....
As far as who bought the sex doctrine? If I start listing all of the accusations against all of the leaders just at gspot then you will squawk because it is 2nd hand
It sounds like you are attempting to put forth an excuse for morally reprehensible, as well as indulging in a physically dangerous behavior which could affect innocent life.
Why? Biblically, a source which YOU claim to give credence...... adultery and fornication are condemned as wrong period....
Are you saying that the scriptures are wrong?.....
Thats what I thought you were talking about, How then can you put that in the 'other than' category. Keeping vows made to God seems pretty primary to me as far as someone pretending to be some sort of 'spiritual leader' , ---otherwise all that he has to offer is words--which are pretty much empty unless they are backed up by actions---
I can get plenty of interesting words, stories and life theories from the local crackhead, in fact I've heard some fairly decent sounding bible from some crackheads, but if there is no substance in him, they may be entertaining for a moment but ultimately pretty useless..certainly not qualified as anything approaching 'leaders'
Back to the topic..the person just appointed to intl. leadership training programme definitely falls into this category along with my bro-in-law who he has left in charge of New Zealand.
My bro-in-laws excuse was he had to marry an older woman before they left Emporia when he actually prefers 'younger' ladies.
TWI is still alive and as 'hellish' as ever.
And I have no problems posting this stuff because I have eyewitness accounts who would testify anytime they 'had' to.
John ..... consider that maybe vp couldn`t or wouldn`t list em because he decided to be oblivious to the impact his personal *sins* had on other`s lives....of course they weren`t important enough for him to care about or remember....that burden was left for the victims who`s lives were devistated by his crimes :(
That is not the mark of a Christian, much less a leader of God`s people. Sins are a BIG deal when they hurt others.
So let me get this right. we are talking about a quote in a letter by John Lynn about something that VPW supposedly said. Since he died before this was written he can neither confirm nor refute it.
Sorry themex. I think that heresay like this will cause you to lose credibility.
Johniam - I can't think of 50 sins of mine either. It must be because of the health food diet I am on (Everything and anything before the expiration date). Could you help me and maybe start my list for me?
themex, I never heard about the sex doctrine in the 21 years I was in the Way. By that I mean - VPW, nor anyone else ever suggested it to me or my wife, either as a means to be a better "minister" ( ya gotta love that, sorry, it's not really funny) or - how would put it - to help someone else be a better minister. For God.
Okay, I'm composed again. There's a side of me that thinks "DANG sockaroo, you can't win for losin'. People were GETTIN' it! and serviing God while they were GETTIN' it!" but really, they weren't. They were just digging their own holes, figurative speaking. IMO.
What I have been told - that VPW passed this deep doctrine along to those he felt were special enough to receive it, which I guess could mean a lot of things especially if you were a woman. I've heard several names that were participants, some that have been named on this board, some that haven't. I'd rather not name names as I don't know exactly what these people are doing now and it could work badly on people being publically "outed" for something in their past when it might do them damage. If I was someone with a specific beef against a specific person I'd go to them directly about this and get it out and air it.
johniam, I still don't understand your hypo-question or your point in asking it. Here it is again -
Other than breaking an agreement, is there a difference, morally, between a guy who has 1 wife and 6 mistresses and a guy who has 7 wives?
As stated already, the breaking of an agreement (like a wedding vow) isn't a minor infraction. If you think it is, we disagree. People do things, make mistakes, change their minds, etc. etc. All of that is what life is about, for better and for worse.
The focus is, I suspect, on sex. But sex isn't all that's involved. If a guy needs 7 women to satisfy his sexual needs, I have to ask - what else does this guy do with his time? How's he remember everybody's birthday? This is one organized guy.
If it's a "cultural" thing, I don't live in a culture where that's acceptable. If you do, send me your zip code, I'm betting it's a growth area. And there's 10 guys for every woman! :D
My morals where I live say there is no difference. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. Don't be surprised if things in your life get sticky (figuratively speaking) if that's the route you go or consider acceptable. Is it done? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it human to err, to be confused, to make wrong choices? Yes.
That's my view, and it's free. But for more detail and those of you who need it know who you are, send me 12.95 for my latest newsletter "It's Okay To Love Again-And Other Pickup Lines!", and I'll shoot it right out, no charge.
As for looking at people's sins, "sin" may be the wrong word. Stupidity would suffice, IMO.
the biggest reason it hits my nerve is because i wasn't a mistress - the term actually (for me), in this context, is insane
please don't be offended but i don't care much about the bible, adultery, fornication point of view
my thing is about being a teenage girl, freshman in college, and having a "pope" come in the flesh at the 12th session, after hearing about him for months and months as the greatest most loving man of god and "father," oh god do i have to go on ?
do you have a couch i could lie on.... :)
anyway, i experienced a few years of handholding and counseling on the coach, and spilled my guts, and he did tell me how much god did not intend for me to be sexually mistreated as a child
but THEN he said he could heal me with the REAL love of god
so you see, he phrucked with my head
BUT even THEN i didn't buy it (thank you, mom) and ran away crying and confused
but eventually he got his way ONCE because i was not in my right mind
he never came after me again after that time. it was either the conquest thing or i was such a horrible lay - most likely the latter since i didn't participate
--
as far as sins and all that crap, i could care less
i just want you to know what the guy was really like
quote: Johniam - I can't think of 50 sins of mine either. It must be because of the health food diet I am on (Everything and anything before the expiration date). Could you help me and maybe start my list for me?
Well, if we're going to talk about sin, we may have to first establish what sin is NOT.
Sin is NOT...
a) boy scouts
B) the Osmonds
c) Shirley Temple
If you have ever had cynical thoughts about any of those 3, then that may be where to start your list. Hope this helps.
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rascal
TOO darned many :(
You would be astonished.
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johniam
I have a hypothetical question.
Other than breaking an agreement, is there a difference, morally, between a guy who has 1 wife and 6 mistresses and a guy who has 7 wives?
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rascal
Yup! IF you adhere to the scriptures ..... they state clearly that fornication AND adultery are dead wrong, no wiggle room period :(
Also there are the scriptures recomending that we obey the laws of the land....and according to THIS countries laws....having 7 wives is illegal as well.
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mstar1
Are you talking about a wedding vow?
One of those promises and vows you make before God?
Breaking that doesn't sound too kosher to me in the first place
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rascal
Well not to mention the moral aspect of putting your wife/ the mother of your children at risk (WITHOUT her knowledge or consent) of contracting a miriad of std`s....some incurable, and some that might even cause her death .....by simply *breaking an agreement* with 6 mistresses :(
It nausiates me to even consider the selfishness or implications of such actions or that one could even ASK the question in the first place.
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excathedra
not to mention using your position and authority as a "loving" "man of god" and then ah forget it
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rascal
Oh HAAAAYULL no ....that should never EVER be forgotten or allowed to be hidden again.... THAT was the ultimate betrayal of vpw`s responsibility, position and authority Ex....it was, and still is, and always BE a big frigging deal
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socks
What's the hypo-question have to do with the original question?
I have a hypothetical question -
How many TWI leaders that followed the sex doctrine of VPW does it take to screw in a light bulb?
(Answer #231: show me where it's documented in print or tape you were supposed to get in the light bulb!)
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Catcup
And Johniam, exactly how many hypothetical children, either living or aborted, are involved in these hypothetical wife/wives/mistress relationships?
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johniam
Ooooh, I've hit a nerve.
Mstar: Yes, I was referring to a wedding vow.
Catcup: Irrelevant to the question.
Rascal: Are you aware that Byunga Nyoka Simbi (sp) the one time TWI leader in Zaire has 7 wives? Which 6 should he give up for Jesus?
Socks: As for the original question, I don't know who besides LCM bought this doctrine and apparently neither does anyone else.
So lets keep counting up peoples' sins again. Gee this is fun. I got 2 so far: selfishness, and implications of such actions, whatever that is. Keep 'em coming.
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rascal
So you didn`t REALLY want an answere to your morality question did you John?
What Bayunga did was not contrary to the laws of HIS country.....
Even so, it is illegal and irrelevent in THIS context.....
As far as who bought the sex doctrine? If I start listing all of the accusations against all of the leaders just at gspot then you will squawk because it is 2nd hand
It sounds like you are attempting to put forth an excuse for morally reprehensible, as well as indulging in a physically dangerous behavior which could affect innocent life.
Why? Biblically, a source which YOU claim to give credence...... adultery and fornication are condemned as wrong period....
Are you saying that the scriptures are wrong?.....
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mstar1
Thats what I thought you were talking about, How then can you put that in the 'other than' category. Keeping vows made to God seems pretty primary to me as far as someone pretending to be some sort of 'spiritual leader' , ---otherwise all that he has to offer is words--which are pretty much empty unless they are backed up by actions---
I can get plenty of interesting words, stories and life theories from the local crackhead, in fact I've heard some fairly decent sounding bible from some crackheads, but if there is no substance in him, they may be entertaining for a moment but ultimately pretty useless..certainly not qualified as anything approaching 'leaders'
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Out There
themex - Where is this guote of VPW from? written? spoken? if so when and where?
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themex
is from a John Lynn letter.
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johniam
Rascal: VP said I couldn't sit down and write down 50 of my sins at any given time...but I bet YOU could.
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Belle
Johniam, I could write a book of my sins, but why? I'd rather write a book of all the good things I've done. ;)
Or maybe the FUN things I've done....but that might include SOME sins....
Not sure I get your point, though. <_<
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Allan
Back to the topic..the person just appointed to intl. leadership training programme definitely falls into this category along with my bro-in-law who he has left in charge of New Zealand.
My bro-in-laws excuse was he had to marry an older woman before they left Emporia when he actually prefers 'younger' ladies.
TWI is still alive and as 'hellish' as ever.
And I have no problems posting this stuff because I have eyewitness accounts who would testify anytime they 'had' to.
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rascal
John ..... consider that maybe vp couldn`t or wouldn`t list em because he decided to be oblivious to the impact his personal *sins* had on other`s lives....of course they weren`t important enough for him to care about or remember....that burden was left for the victims who`s lives were devistated by his crimes :(
That is not the mark of a Christian, much less a leader of God`s people. Sins are a BIG deal when they hurt others.
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Out There
So let me get this right. we are talking about a quote in a letter by John Lynn about something that VPW supposedly said. Since he died before this was written he can neither confirm nor refute it.
Sorry themex. I think that heresay like this will cause you to lose credibility.
Johniam - I can't think of 50 sins of mine either. It must be because of the health food diet I am on (Everything and anything before the expiration date). Could you help me and maybe start my list for me?
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marypoppins
Johniam
of course there is a difference, Where i come from you marry one person, and according to the
scriptures, NO fornication, No adultery
In Zaire the laws are different, but it still doesnt mean its right.
God made adam then Eve, as a helpmeet, This is when it all starts to go wrong when people
take the Word of God and Twist it to meet individual needs.
If only people would understand the reprocussions this has on those that want to be faithful to there
partner, and yes remember the children that are left with the distruction of broken families.
Even though you posed it as a hyperthetical question it was sure gonna hit some nerves..............
Just remember we do live in the age of grace but dont take it in vain. Ok so now is mans day (men do the judging)
But boy i cant wait when its God's Day....................As for counting up sins you need't bother. Sin is Sin
no matter how you look at it, and we should look for the good in each other.
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socks
WOW! Lotta topics going, discussions.
Ain't no derail gonna stop this train!
themex, I never heard about the sex doctrine in the 21 years I was in the Way. By that I mean - VPW, nor anyone else ever suggested it to me or my wife, either as a means to be a better "minister" (
ya gotta love that, sorry, it's not really funny) or - how would put it - to help someone else be a better minister. For God. 
Okay, I'm composed again. There's a side of me that thinks "DANG sockaroo, you can't win for losin'. People were GETTIN' it! and serviing God while they were GETTIN' it!" but really, they weren't. They were just digging their own holes, figurative speaking. IMO.
What I have been told - that VPW passed this deep doctrine along to those he felt were special enough to receive it, which I guess could mean a lot of things especially if you were a woman. I've heard several names that were participants, some that have been named on this board, some that haven't. I'd rather not name names as I don't know exactly what these people are doing now and it could work badly on people being publically "outed" for something in their past when it might do them damage. If I was someone with a specific beef against a specific person I'd go to them directly about this and get it out and air it.
johniam, I still don't understand your hypo-question or your point in asking it. Here it is again -
Other than breaking an agreement, is there a difference, morally, between a guy who has 1 wife and 6 mistresses and a guy who has 7 wives?
As stated already, the breaking of an agreement (like a wedding vow) isn't a minor infraction. If you think it is, we disagree. People do things, make mistakes, change their minds, etc. etc. All of that is what life is about, for better and for worse.
The focus is, I suspect, on sex. But sex isn't all that's involved. If a guy needs 7 women to satisfy his sexual needs, I have to ask - what else does this guy do with his time? How's he remember everybody's birthday? This is one organized guy.
If it's a "cultural" thing, I don't live in a culture where that's acceptable. If you do, send me your zip code, I'm betting it's a growth area.
And there's 10 guys for every woman! :D
My morals where I live say there is no difference. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. Don't be surprised if things in your life get sticky (figuratively speaking) if that's the route you go or consider acceptable. Is it done? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it human to err, to be confused, to make wrong choices? Yes.
That's my view, and it's free. But for more detail and those of you who need it know who you are, send me 12.95 for my latest newsletter "It's Okay To Love Again-And Other Pickup Lines!", and I'll shoot it right out, no charge.
As for looking at people's sins, "sin" may be the wrong word. Stupidity would suffice, IMO.
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excathedra
the biggest reason it hits my nerve is because i wasn't a mistress - the term actually (for me), in this context, is insane
please don't be offended but i don't care much about the bible, adultery, fornication point of view
my thing is about being a teenage girl, freshman in college, and having a "pope" come in the flesh at the 12th session, after hearing about him for months and months as the greatest most loving man of god and "father," oh god do i have to go on ?
do you have a couch i could lie on.... :)
anyway, i experienced a few years of handholding and counseling on the coach, and spilled my guts, and he did tell me how much god did not intend for me to be sexually mistreated as a child
but THEN he said he could heal me with the REAL love of god
so you see, he phrucked with my head
BUT even THEN i didn't buy it (thank you, mom) and ran away crying and confused
but eventually he got his way ONCE because i was not in my right mind
he never came after me again after that time. it was either the conquest thing or i was such a horrible lay - most likely the latter since i didn't participate
--
as far as sins and all that crap, i could care less
i just want you to know what the guy was really like
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Belle
I love you Excie! Thank you for being so strong and for sharing so much of your life on here despite the rations of sh1+ some people fling.
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johniam
quote: Johniam - I can't think of 50 sins of mine either. It must be because of the health food diet I am on (Everything and anything before the expiration date). Could you help me and maybe start my list for me?
Well, if we're going to talk about sin, we may have to first establish what sin is NOT.
Sin is NOT...
a) boy scouts
B) the Osmonds
c) Shirley Temple
If you have ever had cynical thoughts about any of those 3, then that may be where to start your list. Hope this helps.
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