That said my dilemma is that I have found fine fellowships in many of the splinter groups as well as I know that there are good hearted fellowships being done at TWI. The problem with TWI is that due to the structure and top leaderships involvement in the entire process those fellowships are tainted. I thought for a while that I could just enjoy local fellowships and exclude TWI leadership and things would be fine but that was a pipe dream. Now that I have been involved with different splinter groups over the past 5 years I see that there are many wonderful believers living the Word all around the country. The fellowship that I am now part of ties itself to C. Geer and from what I’ve seen it is a loose tie but it’s hard to tell how much he may or may not influence what is taught. They use his class series which I have not taken. The believers I have fellowshipped with are wonderful and live life free of the net that LCM built over all TWI believers. I have not seen any worship of Geer like I did of VPW and LCM.
Godisgoodalways,
Sounds like you've looked into many of those splinter groups......and for now, you have parked your family in a tender fellowship. But at this point, you have not signed on for the cgeer class series.
One of the things I've learned from the twi/splinter group experience is......TO LOOK FOR SIGNS OF A HEALTHY, SPIRITUAL ENVIRONMENT.
1) Do they try to isolate and indoctrinate you?
2) Do they always have to be RIGHT?
3) Do they allow you to ask questions?
4) Do they encourage your individualityin the One Body?
5) Is the leadership the mediator between God & man, or is Christ Jesus?
6) Are they pressuring you to TAKE THE CLASS?
7) Do the "grads" exemplify the fruit of the spirit?
8) Are there alot of meetings behind closed doors?
Here, in my neck of the woods.......the cgeer fellowships were nasty to me when I brought up some points that were disturbing. It was SO OBVIOUS that this structure was a closed-society operation.
Not only should the rank-n-file folk be loving and giving (and all).......but the leadership should be genuine in practical application of their beliefs. And, if there is a caste system of sorts.......well, it should be very telling of the twi roots.
I was involved with CG fellowships briefly in the early 90s in Northern California. It was terrible. Why? Because they were there to collect the money. There were several splinter groups in the SF Bay Area where I was. They were all preaching tithing and collecting the tithe, yet nothing was ever said as to where the money was going. Practically anybody could be a twig coordinator, and the attitude was really flaky IMHO. I got tired of it and stopped going.
But then I went back to the barf in twi when lcm was on his worst ego trip ever. I got sucked in. When I left in 2002, I tried splinter groups again. I was living in San Diego when I left the 2nd time. I tried one with CES, which was wayyyyyy wacky. They seemed a little legalistic to me. Then I tried one which was not directly affiliated with CG, but they ran his classes. I went to a Sunday fellowship where Doug Seed taught and went on and on about Uncle Harry and what the BOT did and had they not had the guts....blah, blah, blah. I wanted to gag! It was all about early trustee worship. The people there didn't understand "leaving" The Way. They didn't even want to put themselves in my place to help me move on, so I went somewhere that did. Sometimes you need a caring heart to understand and listen to you. These people weren't that.
My sister was involved directly with CG groups and there was a lot of pressure for her to take classes. I remember her brother-in-law went to Scotland to take the Advanced Class. He was seen as a spiritual biggie after that. He didn't work or support his family. Yeah he was real spiritual....But everyone thought he was great. They were blinded IMHO.
I got involved with TWI in the late 80’s and graduated from the WC in 94. As a new believer I was oblivious to what was going on with Geer and LCM. After the sexual exploits of LCM and others were exposed I woke up and gave TWI a year to get busy straightening out what had gone wrong. Once I could see that there were only a few top leaders who had the desire to make changes and that these few were being run off by Rosie and Donna I left. I left TWI in 2001 and have been reading posts on this website for the past 6 years.
lcm was taught the sexual exploits by his "mentor", who made his
student twofold the child of hell that he himself was.
As for running off the non-corrupt people, twi does that
periodically. It's one cost for doing business when you just
want the money and power and are lying to the people.
In an effort to not be deceived again by the men and women I choose to follow I have spent the last 5 years trying to make sense of what went on so that I could learn and also so I could find a place to fellowship where I believed it would be best for me and my family. There are a lot of splinter groups out there run by various X - TWI leaders some of which I knew and some of which I had only heard of in a negative light, C. Geer being one who was demonized in a big way. This started with the “special leadership tapes” done by LCM and by many of the believers that were still in leadership in the early 90’s.
I'd spend at least a full year completely separated from twi and splinters.
You'd be surprised how savvy some of the local churches can be.
(Not all, but you knew that part.)
In my quest to understand what went on I have come to the realization that TWI and its leadership committed many transgressions. I have also come to the realization that if I just take a look at the Bible these things are to be expected, the thing to do is to do your best to keep yourself clean and living within God’s will.
The two biggest contributors to the disaster that I see were the centralization of authority and money.
Expected, possibly-but they were still crimes and vile things
to do to people. That corruption is predictable does not excuse
the criminal (nor those absolving him-and I DON'T mean you.)
The centralization was vpw's whole idea, and that's why he
made twi in the FIRST place.
(Check out the thread "the way:living in wonderland" for
discussion of this subject.)
So, it's impossible to reform something that was designed
specifically to do wrong. Just gut it and start from scratch.
I still believe that what I got from TWI was a great start in learning how the Word interprets itself and a great start in how to think spiritually about life. There’s no doubt many Christians that never knew TWI existed that have great insight of their own into spiritual matters.
Well,
you're ahead of some people. We've got some who insist that
non-twi, non-splinter Christians are ALL idiots.
If you got a great start, fantastic.
However, I'd use it as a START and see what all other
Christians have to offer.
My position while IN twi was that-if we really were the best-
that I could take things to another level by adding the best
of what other Christians could offer to what we knew.
That's why it was a less drastic shock to discover Christians
who knew stuff.
A scripture that I have always employed to guide me is the one that says “by their fruits ye shall know them” I know all about LCM due to my years around him. C. Geer is different I did not know him but the fellowships that tie themselves to him from my experience have been great. I decided to give everyone a clean slate when I left TWI.
I'd expect better from them, and DEMAND better from them.
That is, if they're "walking the walk" (demonstrating LOVE, not LEGALISM),
and don't care about the money-they care about YOU,
Hey there, Godisgoodalways. I'm not sure what your dilemma is, after reading your post.
If doctrinal differences keep you separate from other Christian churches, ministries, fellowships and organizations, and those doctrines are TWI specific or based, you're probably going to be happiest going to one of the so-called splinter groups or an acceptable TWI fellowship for the activities you want that involve other people.
If you feel like the centralization of authority and money were the root of the problems in TWI there's a lot of groups you'll probably be happy with. Most of the ex-TWI groups I know of have done something to address those things, from what I've heard. It sounds to me like the various ex-Way groups out there don't hammer down on the individual fellowships they support with teaching. Can't say from first-hand experience though as I'm not involved with any, but that's what I hear.
It sounds like the one you've been attending that gets some of their teaching material from Geer is one you like. Again, I don't see the dilemma. If you like it and you feel you're on solid ground personally, what is it you're looking for exactly?
It sounds like - and I mean this very nicely - that you're looking for some kind of validation for what you're doing, some means to be sure or maybe find out if anyone has done the same thing and what they've learned....?
My only constructive comment would be to this part: In an effort to not be deceived again by the men and women I choose to follow...
Not sure what you mean by that but my advice would be to not put emphasis on following men and women. Treat the teachers, pastors, whatever, as equals to yourself, people who want to contribute to the body of Christ in a specific way. You want to contribuite in your specific way too.
You already understand that men and women are fallible, just like you. If you believe doctrinally that it's necessary to have a man or woman to follow I'd suggest you determine carefully what it means to "follow" them. You need open and equal communicaton with anyone in a "leadership" or service role.
regarding geer, someone wrote to me yesterday and pointed out to me
david in the bible and his little murder to get what he wanted (paraphrased a tiny bit)
i really don't know what to say anymore about these things. does that mean wierwille and geer weren't so bad or what ? or i'm required to do what, forgive ? i ain't playin god and i'm done with men/women of god in this our day and time and religion offshoot or not
I left in 2000..My first fellowship with the Way was in 74, let in 82 and returned in 90.
I think we are in the same boat. I have been coming to this site since 2000.Didnt even know about it till I googled'The Way International' cause I was on probation and very lonley.
I am going t a very splinter group and the teacher is awesome and doesnt teach laws and giving up on anything. Its been very healing for me as long as I care about my first love, Gods love and his word. Alot of us have had our full of law and wrong teaching...People can let us down but not God...
The best to you and your family and if you have need, you can pm me.
It's always interesting to see how people react to so called splinter groups. When my husband and I moved here from No CA ( Hi Socks, think Laundermats!) we were very blessed to find a fellowship where we could study God's word and believe and pray with other like minded people. We have taken the class that Chris Geer teaches, but have never been co-erced into anything. We first got involved in 1969, and until Martindale we really weren't forced into anything. Maybe people left us alone because we never went into the Corps, although we sponsored many in it.
I guess we jusyt decided to take the best of the Word and walk on it. I know that many were hurt, and my heart is heavy for them, but by and large we just decided to make the word our own, and live our lives according to what was best for us. I certainly have had a few run ins with so called leaders, but a few well placed FU's got the job done.
All I know is that God will show us the best way to walk for Him, He is a personal God and He will never let me down
I have a story similar to your´s. When LCM draw the line nobody toll us in Mexico that the country was no longer affiliated with TWI. Very few knows what had happened. That TWI snap. The WC leadership followed the country coordinator of that time Edgar Ibarra who followed Chirs Geer and Ricardo Caballero. In the process just two twigs stand with TWI. The other limbs continue working as one as a new ministry "El Camino Internacional de México". (TWI of Mexico)
Today the two twig are a limb. And I do not know the size of Edgar´s ministry.
But it was biger, I think that the splinter group in Mexico is biger and well organiz with WC leadership, but they started lying, they stole TWI property, the classes and other materials, The main limb house that was bought with the aboudant sharing of USA believers also was stolen.
They used to said very few things on- of the problem: that TWI no loger exist, that all of the believers had left, but as you now, that was no truth, TWI continue functioning up top this day. An I thing that if LCM have not get involved with the girls and the Homoproblem and the debt problem. He may be continue to be the President of The Way International up to this day and time. And the affiliation does not be as bad as it is.
By heart I truly believe The Word that has been teached me by TWI in all it´s classes. Also I know the importance to race a family in The Word with a Household. Also agree with what WordWolf said about know the things that the Churches are doing. The problem of the Churches is that most of them are trinitarians. And us as Way believers just workship -praise God. There is Just One God. No three.
For me going to a Church is not a solution to race a family to a splinter group may be. If I was by myself I take the option to continue by God´s spirit and my bible. But we need to move God´s Word.
One major difference that can be drawn between David of Old Testament times and more modern (ahem) believers who had the same sin as David is that, once confronted by Nathan, David repented of his sin. Even then, God's retribution/divine justice was that David's son died as a result of David's sin. Sometimes the "accused" like to leave out some of the details of the Old Testament record, don't they?
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skyrider
Godisgoodalways,
Sounds like you've looked into many of those splinter groups......and for now, you have parked your family in a tender fellowship. But at this point, you have not signed on for the cgeer class series.
One of the things I've learned from the twi/splinter group experience is......TO LOOK FOR SIGNS OF A HEALTHY, SPIRITUAL ENVIRONMENT.
1) Do they try to isolate and indoctrinate you?
2) Do they always have to be RIGHT?
3) Do they allow you to ask questions?
4) Do they encourage your individualityin the One Body?
5) Is the leadership the mediator between God & man, or is Christ Jesus?
6) Are they pressuring you to TAKE THE CLASS?
7) Do the "grads" exemplify the fruit of the spirit?
8) Are there alot of meetings behind closed doors?
Here, in my neck of the woods.......the cgeer fellowships were nasty to me when I brought up some points that were disturbing. It was SO OBVIOUS that this structure was a closed-society operation.
Not only should the rank-n-file folk be loving and giving (and all).......but the leadership should be genuine in practical application of their beliefs. And, if there is a caste system of sorts.......well, it should be very telling of the twi roots.
Lots more......but I gotta run.
:)
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Nottawayfer
I was involved with CG fellowships briefly in the early 90s in Northern California. It was terrible. Why? Because they were there to collect the money. There were several splinter groups in the SF Bay Area where I was. They were all preaching tithing and collecting the tithe, yet nothing was ever said as to where the money was going. Practically anybody could be a twig coordinator, and the attitude was really flaky IMHO. I got tired of it and stopped going.
But then I went back to the barf in twi when lcm was on his worst ego trip ever. I got sucked in. When I left in 2002, I tried splinter groups again. I was living in San Diego when I left the 2nd time. I tried one with CES, which was wayyyyyy wacky. They seemed a little legalistic to me. Then I tried one which was not directly affiliated with CG, but they ran his classes. I went to a Sunday fellowship where Doug Seed taught and went on and on about Uncle Harry and what the BOT did and had they not had the guts....blah, blah, blah. I wanted to gag! It was all about early trustee worship. The people there didn't understand "leaving" The Way. They didn't even want to put themselves in my place to help me move on, so I went somewhere that did. Sometimes you need a caring heart to understand and listen to you. These people weren't that.
My sister was involved directly with CG groups and there was a lot of pressure for her to take classes. I remember her brother-in-law went to Scotland to take the Advanced Class. He was seen as a spiritual biggie after that. He didn't work or support his family. Yeah he was real spiritual....But everyone thought he was great. They were blinded IMHO.
Now I go to chuch. :P
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excathedra
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johniam
GIGA: I've been going to a CG fellowship for the last 10 months and I've had the same type of experience. I dunno, I just like the atmosphere.
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WordWolf
lcm was taught the sexual exploits by his "mentor", who made his
student twofold the child of hell that he himself was.
As for running off the non-corrupt people, twi does that
periodically. It's one cost for doing business when you just
want the money and power and are lying to the people.
I'd spend at least a full year completely separated from twi and splinters.You'd be surprised how savvy some of the local churches can be.
(Not all, but you knew that part.)
Expected, possibly-but they were still crimes and vile things
to do to people. That corruption is predictable does not excuse
the criminal (nor those absolving him-and I DON'T mean you.)
The centralization was vpw's whole idea, and that's why he
made twi in the FIRST place.
(Check out the thread "the way:living in wonderland" for
discussion of this subject.)
So, it's impossible to reform something that was designed
specifically to do wrong. Just gut it and start from scratch.
Well,you're ahead of some people. We've got some who insist that
non-twi, non-splinter Christians are ALL idiots.
If you got a great start, fantastic.
However, I'd use it as a START and see what all other
Christians have to offer.
My position while IN twi was that-if we really were the best-
that I could take things to another level by adding the best
of what other Christians could offer to what we knew.
That's why it was a less drastic shock to discover Christians
who knew stuff.
I'd expect better from them, and DEMAND better from them.
That is, if they're "walking the walk" (demonstrating LOVE, not LEGALISM),
and don't care about the money-they care about YOU,
and aren't smug about having THE Truth,
and are fine with Christians disagreeing,
then great.
Otherwise, pack up and move on.
Many Christians demand better-so they GET better.
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socks
Hey there, Godisgoodalways. I'm not sure what your dilemma is, after reading your post.
If doctrinal differences keep you separate from other Christian churches, ministries, fellowships and organizations, and those doctrines are TWI specific or based, you're probably going to be happiest going to one of the so-called splinter groups or an acceptable TWI fellowship for the activities you want that involve other people.
If you feel like the centralization of authority and money were the root of the problems in TWI there's a lot of groups you'll probably be happy with. Most of the ex-TWI groups I know of have done something to address those things, from what I've heard. It sounds to me like the various ex-Way groups out there don't hammer down on the individual fellowships they support with teaching. Can't say from first-hand experience though as I'm not involved with any, but that's what I hear.
It sounds like the one you've been attending that gets some of their teaching material from Geer is one you like. Again, I don't see the dilemma. If you like it and you feel you're on solid ground personally, what is it you're looking for exactly?
It sounds like - and I mean this very nicely - that you're looking for some kind of validation for what you're doing, some means to be sure or maybe find out if anyone has done the same thing and what they've learned....?
My only constructive comment would be to this part: In an effort to not be deceived again by the men and women I choose to follow...
Not sure what you mean by that but my advice would be to not put emphasis on following men and women. Treat the teachers, pastors, whatever, as equals to yourself, people who want to contribute to the body of Christ in a specific way. You want to contribuite in your specific way too.
You already understand that men and women are fallible, just like you. If you believe doctrinally that it's necessary to have a man or woman to follow I'd suggest you determine carefully what it means to "follow" them. You need open and equal communicaton with anyone in a "leadership" or service role.
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alfakat
sock, ....right on the mark.
.
.
. as usual....
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excathedra
regarding geer, someone wrote to me yesterday and pointed out to me
david in the bible and his little murder to get what he wanted (paraphrased a tiny bit)
i really don't know what to say anymore about these things. does that mean wierwille and geer weren't so bad or what ? or i'm required to do what, forgive ? i ain't playin god and i'm done with men/women of god in this our day and time and religion offshoot or not
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rascal
Excathedra, I think that it is simply an attempt to excuse what wierwille and his buddies did.
If you can excuse the inexcusable, one isn`t faced with the necessity of making the effort to reexammine reevaluate ones whole life and belief system.
One doesn`t have to deal with the uncomfortable truth that we may have been wrong.
If one doesn`t deal with the reality of wierwille...they can remain cocooned feeling safe in their belief system..
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likeaneagle
Godisgoodalways-
I left in 2000..My first fellowship with the Way was in 74, let in 82 and returned in 90.
I think we are in the same boat. I have been coming to this site since 2000.Didnt even know about it till I googled'The Way International' cause I was on probation and very lonley.
I am going t a very splinter group and the teacher is awesome and doesnt teach laws and giving up on anything. Its been very healing for me as long as I care about my first love, Gods love and his word. Alot of us have had our full of law and wrong teaching...People can let us down but not God...
The best to you and your family and if you have need, you can pm me.
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Priscilla
It's always interesting to see how people react to so called splinter groups. When my husband and I moved here from No CA ( Hi Socks, think Laundermats!) we were very blessed to find a fellowship where we could study God's word and believe and pray with other like minded people. We have taken the class that Chris Geer teaches, but have never been co-erced into anything. We first got involved in 1969, and until Martindale we really weren't forced into anything. Maybe people left us alone because we never went into the Corps, although we sponsored many in it.
I guess we jusyt decided to take the best of the Word and walk on it. I know that many were hurt, and my heart is heavy for them, but by and large we just decided to make the word our own, and live our lives according to what was best for us. I certainly have had a few run ins with so called leaders, but a few well placed FU's got the job done.
All I know is that God will show us the best way to walk for Him, He is a personal God and He will never let me down
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J0nny Ling0
Hey Socks, nice insight...
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themex
Hi Godisgoodalways:
I have a story similar to your´s. When LCM draw the line nobody toll us in Mexico that the country was no longer affiliated with TWI. Very few knows what had happened. That TWI snap. The WC leadership followed the country coordinator of that time Edgar Ibarra who followed Chirs Geer and Ricardo Caballero. In the process just two twigs stand with TWI. The other limbs continue working as one as a new ministry "El Camino Internacional de México". (TWI of Mexico)
Today the two twig are a limb. And I do not know the size of Edgar´s ministry.
But it was biger, I think that the splinter group in Mexico is biger and well organiz with WC leadership, but they started lying, they stole TWI property, the classes and other materials, The main limb house that was bought with the aboudant sharing of USA believers also was stolen.
They used to said very few things on- of the problem: that TWI no loger exist, that all of the believers had left, but as you now, that was no truth, TWI continue functioning up top this day. An I thing that if LCM have not get involved with the girls and the Homoproblem and the debt problem. He may be continue to be the President of The Way International up to this day and time. And the affiliation does not be as bad as it is.
By heart I truly believe The Word that has been teached me by TWI in all it´s classes. Also I know the importance to race a family in The Word with a Household. Also agree with what WordWolf said about know the things that the Churches are doing. The problem of the Churches is that most of them are trinitarians. And us as Way believers just workship -praise God. There is Just One God. No three.
For me going to a Church is not a solution to race a family to a splinter group may be. If I was by myself I take the option to continue by God´s spirit and my bible. But we need to move God´s Word.
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ToadFriend
One major difference that can be drawn between David of Old Testament times and more modern (ahem) believers who had the same sin as David is that, once confronted by Nathan, David repented of his sin. Even then, God's retribution/divine justice was that David's son died as a result of David's sin. Sometimes the "accused" like to leave out some of the details of the Old Testament record, don't they?
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rascal
PREEEE cisely Toad friend. There was never any repentance when caught, just run their accuser out of town on a rail
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