Exie I'm with you I'd say he did nothing wrong. Course I'm the wrong person to ask most likely cause I never had any interest in sports because of $*@! just like that....... and alot of other things that go on. Disipline and bull #$*@ seem one in the same when it comes to sports most times.
Let your son deal with this...if he feels unjustly disciplined let him talk to the coach...otherwise if he's okay with the consequence, let it go.
The best things we can do for our kids is let them solve their own problems (work out rides if need be) and express themselves in healthy ways (speak up for themselves).
Cripes -- he is 11 years old. Not on some Pro team.
Disciplined vs. Punishment???
NON-FACTOR!!!!
The coach was a jerk, as were the parents who opened their mouths, and let gravity rule:
(what is *upstairs* drains out at the mouth).
If the parents, coach, whoever-the-hell-is-involved-is-so-dog-goned-worried about this, tell them when to come and do the transporting themselves, or pay the bills you incurr by his involvement!
You've taught your kid to be considerate, honest and respectful. He, in turn, expects the same from others, especially people in positions of authority. And, as we all know, sometimes people in positions of authority sometimes misuse their power either by accident or deliberately.
I went through this with my daughter at about the same age. I explained that if you go through life expecting everyone to treat you fairly, you will have a lot of bitter and unhappy times. People should treat you fairly and that they don't treat you fairly doesn't make it right. The important thing is to realize when you aren't being treated fairly and to make your own decisions as to how you will handle it.
This is also the question of when do we tolerate unfair behavior or when do we stand up and say "Enough". Exe, you have a great heart and I'm sure you have a great kid. Just explain to him the best you can that a little pain and a little unfairness is part of a good life, but a lot of pain and a lot of unfairness isn't.
I don't buy the punishment vs. discipline thing. He was punished. Just some fluff to avoid the hard question.
There are a lot worse things a coach can do. Discipline is not so bad. Consequences are not so bad. So he didn't make himself late. Since when is life fair...want your kid to grow up to be a victim? Tell him every time he or she is victimized, no matter how insignificant the infraction is...
Or say, "Sorry, It was my fault you were late. I FELT it was unfair you were penalized for us not getting there on time. HOW DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL to have to do all those butterflies? I bet that sucked. Do you WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT?
Take the power away from the situation and give it back to the kids! Validate their feelings, but don't rescue them!
Exie, Trial and error...trial and error...wish I could always practice what I preach, but parenting is advanced conciousness...
- he wasn't late because he arrived on time and then fooled around in the locker room
Perhaps the coach knew this and acted accordingly. Your husbands working late isn't a factor in the equation. The coach should know the boy doesn't drive, but if he arrived on time and was late because he was screwing around in the locker room, the conseqences were appropriate.
I'm a Scout leader and we have to have a certain degree of discipline or the boys will accomplish nothing. Discipline is very, very necessary to make boys into strong, confident, self reliant men.
Discipline seems to be less and less a part of bringing kids up and this is responsible for kids having an unwarranted need for quick gratification, inflated sense of self importance and entitlement. This is part of the pussification of American boys
I'm sure the 30 "butterflies" will only make your son a little stronger.
The 30 butterflies should be for fooling around in the locker room (a normal kid thing, but also a "lack of discipline," especially when running late) and (presumably) making the team and coaches wait, and/or waste their own time.
11-year olds lack discipline, and experiences like this are how they gain it, if they can process the experience correctly. Most everyone here has presented a healthy context in which to understand what happened, and 11-year olds can understand, especially the bright ones like your hockey player.
If he had to do an extra 30 butterflies every time he lacked discipline he'd eventually be the strongest kid in the school. He'd soon do 30 on one arm, and another 30 on the other. Boys can thrive on that sort of thing, as long as they don't become jaded or bitter, and as long as they believe they're not being singled out.
If he was late on account of his dad, but scrambled to get ready as fast as possible, I don't see how they could, or should, punish him.
As for discipline vs punishment. It's semantics, because the words are often used interchangably. Remember how The Way dopes might say "It's not condemnation, it's reproof."
The team should have written rules and the coaches should follow them. If they do not, then the "disciplinary" actions are just arbitrary and that won't help the team, the kids, or anybody.
The parents should try to notify the coaches in advance if they may be late.
It may be necessary for the team to have a policy saying, "Every lateness, no matter what the reason, will result in 30 butterflies," or 30 laps, or whatever. That way, every kid sees the consistency. You don't have excuses. There's no temptation to make up a lie about it. Shut and do your 30. End of story. That might be the best approach.
"Discipline" is a loaded word, and somewhat judgmental these days. In this context, it seems inappropriate. Just call it a freakin' "penalty." Hockey players understand penalties.
If your son was late to practice, he probably missed warm-ups. So perhaps the 30 butterflies (whatever they are) were meant to give him a fast warm-up so he could join practice. On the other hand, if the coach indicated to the kid it was punishment, the coach is a dork. :D
As a gymnastics coach, I have to give kids warm-up assignments when they're late to practice. I try to present it in a "here's what you gotta do to catch up" manner, but abbreviated warm-ups are usually not much fun, and the kid will have to work separately from the group until she is ready.
We don't always know why the kid was late -- sometimes she tells us, sometimes the parents tell us. If the kid is chronically late she doesn't feel like a part of the team, so we try and talk to the parents and figure out a solution.
And I'm with karmic -- let the kid handle it, unless the coach is a TOTAL dork!
Another take, Was he being punished for his lack of discipline ie. screwing around in the locker room? If that is the case I see absolutly nothing wrong with what the coach did. Maybe he will learn to except actions have consequences. If it was the messing around in the locker room. I say you back the coach up.
I am like the others as far if it was because his dad got there late for what ever reason it should have been handled between the coach and his dad.
Coaches, Scout leaders and the like have to be flexible with regard to parents situations. Your husband needs to take it up with the coach, then since it's not due to the boy being irresponsible.
Sometimes, even coaches and Scout leaders can get caught in traffic, have flat tires and work causing them to be late.
Sometimes, even coaches and Scout leaders can get caught in traffic, have flat tires and work causing them to be late.
Oh man tell me about that one. I was asst. wrestling coach here at a highschool and I thought we had a home match. I got to the school not a wrestler around. The basketball coach told me they left an hour before to go to the AWAY match. Well I drove the 50 miles to the match and boy did the kids give me .... ;)
Your son is learning a great lesson here. I admire the coach for sticking to his guns and not letting this slide. This is real life training Ex and you ought to appreciate the value of it. I'd say your husband's working more to pay for hocky is well worth the money paid.
In the real world, kids are penalized for being tardy to school even if they are being carpooled by parents. In the real world, if parents are too lazy to get their kids up to go to school and they miss entire days, they flunk. Your son is learning a very valuable lesson which is that he is ultimately responsible for what is expected of him. He's learning that he pays the price when others let him down. Even at his tender years he could be learning that he might have to try to arrange other transportation himself if he can't rely on his parents.
In the real world, the other parents and kids don't care if the reason he was late was because of his parents. If they have to be at practice on time then everyone should have to be at practice on time in their view. If one child gets a free ride because his parents run late, then why should THEY have to worry about being on time?
I don't know enough about sports to say anything here that hasn't already been said. I do have a way to tell the difference between punishment and discipline but I learned it as an "innie". It is still valid, so I still would use it today if I were molding youngsters.
Discipline is something you do for and child. Punishment is something you do to a child. I think it is a matter of heart. You can't tell the difference from the outside all the time.
Aw, exceeda, it's tough being a parent sometimes. You love your son, he's a good'un and you know how cool he really is. If you're like me, you're protective and supportive of your children. Ya mess with them, ya mess with ME. And that's the way it should be. I'm the Dad.
They have to learn to live for themselves. He's already starting. Group sports are ( ... can be... ) a great way to learn.
If he was late cause he fooled around in the locker room, after all that effort on your husband's and your part, hey, he was late. It's not that he's a bad kid, ungrateful or should be taken out and used for a hocky puck. Sounds to me like the coach kept it in the right perspective, kept it "real". No doubt he knows what your son offers the team - they need him.
Sometimes kids have to learn - all that hustle you do for them they have to learn to do for themselves. You're being great parents, you've learned those lessons. He's learning them now too.
I'd let it lay and remind him - get outta that locker room and on the field! :) With all the love you've got and it sounds like there's plenty of that to go around.
I love to hear that all of us parents do things like this with and for their kids. It's the way it ought to be.
You and Dad - have a big wet kiss, on me. (not literally).
I was going to add when our kids played little league in town here, it was a great time for them and challenging.
Both our kids played baseball. My daugther, 3rd base. She was a real slugger, always good for a single or a double. She had a tough time fielding, and had to work at it and did a good job, I always loved to see her at the plate, she could really see that ball.
My son played 5 years all together, the last two years he came into his own and did really well. The final year he ripped. Has the longest home run hit record that year, may still, not sure. (out of the baseball park, across the adjacent soccer field and into the street for a grand slam that stopped the game. Part fluke, part smash. Same game almost did it again for a triple that brought in another run) His average soared then settled in around the .400's. We've still got the two of the balls that he hit in dramatic at-bat home runs. He was breakin' some windows that last year. :) It was always fun to see him bat because everyone would always get very focused - what's going to happen?
The ooach worked with him, and we didn't really like the way the team was run. I mean didn't like it. But he stayed patient, wanted to do well. He wasn't at all like that his first couple years, if it got weird, he'd drift. We encouraged him and he wanted to do it so we did our part.
Mid-year they lost a player and they asked our son to catch. His legs would get sore, he didn't really like it. He played left field, had a good arm and he liked the way it was. So he switched and I'll tell you-I'm his Dad and he was the worst catcher you'd ever seen. The pitching could get wild, and half the time the first few games it'd be a squall at home plate to find the ball. Runs would come in.
The ump's struggled because they were getting whapped more with the ball. The ump's were pretty good guys that put in a lot of time, but they'd get short when they became the back-stop for a game. But our son stayed at it, practiced and eventually did really well with it. Along the way he took some hits for his playing, and he felt like hey, if you'd left me where I was, I'd be doing fine. He didn't ASK for this y'know. But the team "needed" him there and he agreed to give it a shot. His batting stayed consistent but he got sore doing the catching, plus he got grief!
That final year he made the "All-Star" team and we were very proud. Some of the ump's came by at the picnic that year and congratulated him. They said they'd voted him "Most Improved Player" of the season, because while he could hit well and field, when he started catching he'd STUNK, but he'd gotten hold of it and managed the position. I was proud of him. The ump's point-blank didn't like his coach who had a son on the team that the coach had tried to front all season, often to the detriment of the rest of the team. But it balanced out that year and our son got his due.
It doesn't always work out that way. They turned around and the coach of their All-Star team's son was the pitcher and they ended up hardly playing our son at all. It was a little hard to swallow as there seemed to be some favorites that got first string whereas players like my son who had the numbers didn't play as much.
We've talked about it and one thing he learned through that last couple years was perseverance. Things don't always click right away. Sometimes you do your best and do well and there's no reward. But there's always the reward you take with you, what you earn. No one can take that away from you.
i'm really appreciative. i want to protect, i want to teach "life is not fair," and i want to understand stuff like sudo and others have said, and i want to make sure some things are not over the line, and i want to do the right thing with all my heart
i want him to grow up to be a good grounded person prepared for the world. i want him to always know i support him. you know, not spoiled, but he always has him mom and dad who love him. but i certainly don't want to teach him to be victimized or pussified ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ron
(shaz, your perspective as a coach was awesome)
that's why i asked other parents on the team and why i asked all you great people
can i share ? is this mike on ?
today he said to me, "mom, you're the best thing that ever happened to me"
and he was grounded (not in life, but in his room) when he said that.....
he's a good boy. you're very good people. thank you again. i read every word each and everyone one of you said, and you helped me
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WhiteDove
Exie I'm with you I'd say he did nothing wrong. Course I'm the wrong person to ask most likely cause I never had any interest in sports because of $*@! just like that....... and alot of other things that go on. Disipline and bull #$*@ seem one in the same when it comes to sports most times.
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karmicdebt
Exie-honey,
Let your son deal with this...if he feels unjustly disciplined let him talk to the coach...otherwise if he's okay with the consequence, let it go.
The best things we can do for our kids is let them solve their own problems (work out rides if need be) and express themselves in healthy ways (speak up for themselves).
Love you madly....
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excathedra
thank you dearest ((((((((((((( white dove ))))))))))))))))))))))
karmie, how did you get so smart ?
and i love you more madly than you love me
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dmiller
???????
Cripes -- he is 11 years old. Not on some Pro team.
Disciplined vs. Punishment???
NON-FACTOR!!!!
The coach was a jerk, as were the parents who opened their mouths, and let gravity rule:
(what is *upstairs* drains out at the mouth).
If the parents, coach, whoever-the-hell-is-involved-is-so-dog-goned-worried about this, tell them when to come and do the transporting themselves, or pay the bills you incurr by his involvement!
:D
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Jim
This is the classic "life isn't fair" dilemma.
You've taught your kid to be considerate, honest and respectful. He, in turn, expects the same from others, especially people in positions of authority. And, as we all know, sometimes people in positions of authority sometimes misuse their power either by accident or deliberately.
I went through this with my daughter at about the same age. I explained that if you go through life expecting everyone to treat you fairly, you will have a lot of bitter and unhappy times. People should treat you fairly and that they don't treat you fairly doesn't make it right. The important thing is to realize when you aren't being treated fairly and to make your own decisions as to how you will handle it.
This is also the question of when do we tolerate unfair behavior or when do we stand up and say "Enough". Exe, you have a great heart and I'm sure you have a great kid. Just explain to him the best you can that a little pain and a little unfairness is part of a good life, but a lot of pain and a lot of unfairness isn't.
I don't buy the punishment vs. discipline thing. He was punished. Just some fluff to avoid the hard question.
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karmicdebt
There are a lot worse things a coach can do. Discipline is not so bad. Consequences are not so bad. So he didn't make himself late. Since when is life fair...want your kid to grow up to be a victim? Tell him every time he or she is victimized, no matter how insignificant the infraction is...
Or say, "Sorry, It was my fault you were late. I FELT it was unfair you were penalized for us not getting there on time. HOW DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL to have to do all those butterflies? I bet that sucked. Do you WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT?
Take the power away from the situation and give it back to the kids! Validate their feelings, but don't rescue them!
Exie, Trial and error...trial and error...wish I could always practice what I preach, but parenting is advanced conciousness...
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Ron G.
Perhaps the coach knew this and acted accordingly. Your husbands working late isn't a factor in the equation. The coach should know the boy doesn't drive, but if he arrived on time and was late because he was screwing around in the locker room, the conseqences were appropriate.
I'm a Scout leader and we have to have a certain degree of discipline or the boys will accomplish nothing. Discipline is very, very necessary to make boys into strong, confident, self reliant men.
Discipline seems to be less and less a part of bringing kids up and this is responsible for kids having an unwarranted need for quick gratification, inflated sense of self importance and entitlement. This is part of the pussification of American boys
I'm sure the 30 "butterflies" will only make your son a little stronger.
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satori001
The 30 butterflies should be for fooling around in the locker room (a normal kid thing, but also a "lack of discipline," especially when running late) and (presumably) making the team and coaches wait, and/or waste their own time.
11-year olds lack discipline, and experiences like this are how they gain it, if they can process the experience correctly. Most everyone here has presented a healthy context in which to understand what happened, and 11-year olds can understand, especially the bright ones like your hockey player.
If he had to do an extra 30 butterflies every time he lacked discipline he'd eventually be the strongest kid in the school. He'd soon do 30 on one arm, and another 30 on the other. Boys can thrive on that sort of thing, as long as they don't become jaded or bitter, and as long as they believe they're not being singled out.
If he was late on account of his dad, but scrambled to get ready as fast as possible, I don't see how they could, or should, punish him.
As for discipline vs punishment. It's semantics, because the words are often used interchangably. Remember how The Way dopes might say "It's not condemnation, it's reproof."
The team should have written rules and the coaches should follow them. If they do not, then the "disciplinary" actions are just arbitrary and that won't help the team, the kids, or anybody.
The parents should try to notify the coaches in advance if they may be late.
It may be necessary for the team to have a policy saying, "Every lateness, no matter what the reason, will result in 30 butterflies," or 30 laps, or whatever. That way, every kid sees the consistency. You don't have excuses. There's no temptation to make up a lie about it. Shut and do your 30. End of story. That might be the best approach.
"Discipline" is a loaded word, and somewhat judgmental these days. In this context, it seems inappropriate. Just call it a freakin' "penalty." Hockey players understand penalties.
Make sure he protects that great smile, ex.
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shazdancer
One more possible take on this...
If your son was late to practice, he probably missed warm-ups. So perhaps the 30 butterflies (whatever they are) were meant to give him a fast warm-up so he could join practice. On the other hand, if the coach indicated to the kid it was punishment, the coach is a dork. :D
As a gymnastics coach, I have to give kids warm-up assignments when they're late to practice. I try to present it in a "here's what you gotta do to catch up" manner, but abbreviated warm-ups are usually not much fun, and the kid will have to work separately from the group until she is ready.
We don't always know why the kid was late -- sometimes she tells us, sometimes the parents tell us. If the kid is chronically late she doesn't feel like a part of the team, so we try and talk to the parents and figure out a solution.
And I'm with karmic -- let the kid handle it, unless the coach is a TOTAL dork!
Regards,
Shaz
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justloafing
Another take, Was he being punished for his lack of discipline ie. screwing around in the locker room? If that is the case I see absolutly nothing wrong with what the coach did. Maybe he will learn to except actions have consequences. If it was the messing around in the locker room. I say you back the coach up.
I am like the others as far if it was because his dad got there late for what ever reason it should have been handled between the coach and his dad.
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excathedra
(oh sorry i miscommunicated. he was not fooling around in the locker room)
he was late because my husband got out of work late
i'm REALLY glad i asked this here
you give such good thoughtful advice and i appreciate it
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Ron G.
Coaches, Scout leaders and the like have to be flexible with regard to parents situations. Your husband needs to take it up with the coach, then since it's not due to the boy being irresponsible.
Sometimes, even coaches and Scout leaders can get caught in traffic, have flat tires and work causing them to be late.
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justloafing
Oh man tell me about that one. I was asst. wrestling coach here at a highschool and I thought we had a home match. I got to the school not a wrestler around. The basketball coach told me they left an hour before to go to the AWAY match. Well I drove the 50 miles to the match and boy did the kids give me .... ;)
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Sudo
Ex,
Your son is learning a great lesson here. I admire the coach for sticking to his guns and not letting this slide. This is real life training Ex and you ought to appreciate the value of it. I'd say your husband's working more to pay for hocky is well worth the money paid.
In the real world, kids are penalized for being tardy to school even if they are being carpooled by parents. In the real world, if parents are too lazy to get their kids up to go to school and they miss entire days, they flunk. Your son is learning a very valuable lesson which is that he is ultimately responsible for what is expected of him. He's learning that he pays the price when others let him down. Even at his tender years he could be learning that he might have to try to arrange other transportation himself if he can't rely on his parents.
In the real world, the other parents and kids don't care if the reason he was late was because of his parents. If they have to be at practice on time then everyone should have to be at practice on time in their view. If one child gets a free ride because his parents run late, then why should THEY have to worry about being on time?
Very valuable lessons indeed.
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krys
I don't know enough about sports to say anything here that hasn't already been said. I do have a way to tell the difference between punishment and discipline but I learned it as an "innie". It is still valid, so I still would use it today if I were molding youngsters.
Discipline is something you do for and child. Punishment is something you do to a child. I think it is a matter of heart. You can't tell the difference from the outside all the time.
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socks
Aw, exceeda, it's tough being a parent sometimes. You love your son, he's a good'un and you know how cool he really is. If you're like me, you're protective and supportive of your children. Ya mess with them, ya mess with ME. And that's the way it should be. I'm the Dad.
They have to learn to live for themselves. He's already starting. Group sports are ( ... can be... ) a great way to learn.
If he was late cause he fooled around in the locker room, after all that effort on your husband's and your part, hey, he was late. It's not that he's a bad kid, ungrateful or should be taken out and used for a hocky puck. Sounds to me like the coach kept it in the right perspective, kept it "real". No doubt he knows what your son offers the team - they need him.
Sometimes kids have to learn - all that hustle you do for them they have to learn to do for themselves. You're being great parents, you've learned those lessons. He's learning them now too.
I'd let it lay and remind him - get outta that locker room and on the field! :) With all the love you've got and it sounds like there's plenty of that to go around.
I love to hear that all of us parents do things like this with and for their kids. It's the way it ought to be.
You and Dad - have a big wet kiss, on me. (not literally).
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socks
I was going to add when our kids played little league in town here, it was a great time for them and challenging.
Both our kids played baseball. My daugther, 3rd base. She was a real slugger, always good for a single or a double. She had a tough time fielding, and had to work at it and did a good job, I always loved to see her at the plate, she could really see that ball.
My son played 5 years all together, the last two years he came into his own and did really well. The final year he ripped. Has the longest home run hit record that year, may still, not sure. (out of the baseball park, across the adjacent soccer field and into the street for a grand slam that stopped the game. Part fluke, part smash. Same game almost did it again for a triple that brought in another run) His average soared then settled in around the .400's. We've still got the two of the balls that he hit in dramatic at-bat home runs. He was breakin' some windows that last year. :) It was always fun to see him bat because everyone would always get very focused - what's going to happen?
The ooach worked with him, and we didn't really like the way the team was run. I mean didn't like it. But he stayed patient, wanted to do well. He wasn't at all like that his first couple years, if it got weird, he'd drift. We encouraged him and he wanted to do it so we did our part.
Mid-year they lost a player and they asked our son to catch. His legs would get sore, he didn't really like it. He played left field, had a good arm and he liked the way it was. So he switched and I'll tell you-I'm his Dad and he was the worst catcher you'd ever seen. The pitching could get wild, and half the time the first few games it'd be a squall at home plate to find the ball. Runs would come in.
The ump's struggled because they were getting whapped more with the ball. The ump's were pretty good guys that put in a lot of time, but they'd get short when they became the back-stop for a game. But our son stayed at it, practiced and eventually did really well with it. Along the way he took some hits for his playing, and he felt like hey, if you'd left me where I was, I'd be doing fine. He didn't ASK for this y'know. But the team "needed" him there and he agreed to give it a shot. His batting stayed consistent but he got sore doing the catching, plus he got grief!
That final year he made the "All-Star" team and we were very proud. Some of the ump's came by at the picnic that year and congratulated him. They said they'd voted him "Most Improved Player" of the season, because while he could hit well and field, when he started catching he'd STUNK, but he'd gotten hold of it and managed the position. I was proud of him. The ump's point-blank didn't like his coach who had a son on the team that the coach had tried to front all season, often to the detriment of the rest of the team. But it balanced out that year and our son got his due.
It doesn't always work out that way. They turned around and the coach of their All-Star team's son was the pitcher and they ended up hardly playing our son at all. It was a little hard to swallow as there seemed to be some favorites that got first string whereas players like my son who had the numbers didn't play as much.
We've talked about it and one thing he learned through that last couple years was perseverance. Things don't always click right away. Sometimes you do your best and do well and there's no reward. But there's always the reward you take with you, what you earn. No one can take that away from you.
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excathedra
thank you thank you thank you all
i've never been a parent before
i'm really appreciative. i want to protect, i want to teach "life is not fair," and i want to understand stuff like sudo and others have said, and i want to make sure some things are not over the line, and i want to do the right thing with all my heart
i want him to grow up to be a good grounded person prepared for the world. i want him to always know i support him. you know, not spoiled, but he always has him mom and dad who love him. but i certainly don't want to teach him to be victimized or pussified ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ron
(shaz, your perspective as a coach was awesome)
that's why i asked other parents on the team and why i asked all you great people
can i share ? is this mike on ?
today he said to me, "mom, you're the best thing that ever happened to me"
and he was grounded (not in life, but in his room) when he said that.....
he's a good boy. you're very good people. thank you again. i read every word each and everyone one of you said, and you helped me
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