Has anyone ever had the experience of doing some minor infraction and had a Corps brother or sister turn you in for it even though nothing would have come of it?
I was never in the corps but I became more nad more distrustful of them for the most part as I continued on in TWI. I had a hard time thinking about good things remebered about the corps in the other thread, I only knew a handful that seemed normal and lived 'quiet and peaceable lives' went about their business , left you alone but were there if you needed them. Those I liked but they seemed few and far between to me.
Too many knew everything about everything, including everything I should be doing and how I should be doing it at any given time and would sell their soul, their friends or their own mothers to brownnose anyone further up the dunghill than them. The power structure built it to be a haven and a sort of breeding ground, if people had that propensity, for rats. Not all of them-but enough
They thought that they have "no friends when it comes to the word' but in the end they'll just have ' no friends"
Has anyone ever had the experience of doing some minor infraction and had a Corps brother or sister turn you in for it even though nothing would have come of it?
this is screwed (see what word i used mr. moderator) up, plain and simple
what is wrong with people ? and why am i experiencing being called on the carpet for minor infractions here ? even though i don't believe for a second they are infractions
Whew, I really didn't want to see the title to this thread. Although I've never been corps, I've been on both sides of this and neither side is pretty.
My ex is/was like a son to this one couple. The husband and he did everything together. The husband sold his business to go full time WC and then had to start again all over from scratch since they were one of the first ones dropped from WC by Moneyhands as soon as the ROA was over. He was getting increasingly frustrated with TWI and, I believe would have left TWI at that time if it hadn't been for his wife.
Anyway, this man and my ex were talking while they were painting about craiggers and what he did all day and how hard it was to get everything done THEY, as husbands, workers, HFCs, etc. had to get done. The husband said something about craiggers having it easy and having other people do all those things for him and that he really didn't have much to do during the day and that his responsibility load was nil compared to theirs.
Well, my husband was offended, surprised and angry that this man would speak ill of the MOGFART. He KNEW that wasn't right. We talked it over and he decided the best thing to do was to call our local WC and tell them what was said. It ended up being a confrontation meeting with this couple, us and the WC couple. My ex and I were so serious and so, so....I don't know what we were.....but the couple was moved to another fellowship and not allowed to run another one for a while.
Looking back it was nothing. It was just an off the cuff comment that we now know to have been more true than any of us could have imagined. :unsure: I feel like one big tattle tale. There was NO reason why we should have blown one comment up into such a big deal. We were so effen self-righteous it's sickening. It was a private conversation between two people who loved and trusted one another. I can only imagine how betrayed this man must have felt by my husband and then by both of us as a couple. This man calls my ex "the son he never had". How's that for a huge stab in the back?
These are pretty decent replies. Exie and Belle have experience. I was a TC for a while, about three and a half years, and while I never turned anyone in, did get judgmental to the point of turning people off from my fellowship. I was taught this way. I was not taught to turn people in, but I did not go that far into the Corps program.
To be fair and honest, there were some great Corps people out there. They were not abusive but pretty fair and even loving. When the abuse came down the pike, apparently ordered by LCM by people I have spoken with that were there, (I witnessed some of his own abuse myself), the Corps that refused to do it just turned him down and left, preferring to be "marked and avoided" and kicked out of the Corps rather than do what was ordered.
Tough times in those days. Belle, that was a wonderful posting. I know exactly what you were talking about. And I know we all here, if we could travel back in time, would reverse a lot of things. Exie, I saw you speak of it once and didn't get to reply. It was a while back. It just came to thought recently what you were talking about so I posted my personal experience.
I ratted out a couple of guys whom I caught in the middle of a homosexual act back in 1980 at Emporia. This was way before the "homo purges". I was delivering the mail one day at in the Hallowed Halls of Uncle Harry High Rise one day when this happened. As I customarily did when delivering the mail, I knocked first on the dorm room door, waited, said; "hellooo!", and when no one answered, I opened the door to step in and put the mail on top of the dresser. But, imagine my surprise when I walked in on these two guys in the midst of the very act! I was pretty flabbergasted, for I would never even ever had expected to find that going on in the Corps :o . I just closed the door and walked out. And so, yeah, I guess I ratted them out by telling the Corps coordinator. I just didn't feel that there was a place for that in a Christian leadership training program.
But, I would never squeal on anyone for something petty. Shoot, I was always sneaking off and fishing at Gunnison, or, going jogging with a buddy with money in my socks and then go to a movie. I walked in on an engaged couple in the attic of Kenyon Hall who were very intertwined at the moment, but I just grinned at them because they were in love and it was okay with me. I was up there so I could watch the sunset out of the east attic window that was high enough to see over that Kansas tree line.
The sex thing was a major violation and behavior like that did not belong at TWI or any other church and the two guys should have not joined the Corps. They knew what the doctrine was, knew how everyone else felt about that and came in anyway. Yeah, turning in major violators like that was expected. It always was.
The same went for heterosexual couples having sex on the grounds. If caught, they were to be kicked out, too. Of course, LCM was the exception. HA!
Other petty "violations" included buying coffee and bring it in instead of letting a Corps brother or sister make it for you. They lost the blessing, therefore, I cheated them. I got chewed out for that.
Another was when I was just learning to interpret tongues, I had a hard time. So a Corps member "cast out the devil spirit" causing it.
I did not like VPW's Christian Family and Sex class. I was told I did not have spiritual insight. Hell, I just thought the class was weird.
Another time I picked up a second hand suit that was not that modern, but it was a suit and I used it for functions. I had no money after tithing and abundantly sharing to TWI. I got the "look" from leadership as if I failed in life, or something.
As Apprentice Corps, I was in charge one time of a dinner setup at the BRC. We prayed for the success of the dinner after the teaching there. When the teaching was over, the food was not yet at the designated stations. I got "the look" (the you are an evil, worthless person look) until just as the believers entered so did the food. The food made it exactly a couple of seconds before the people got to eat it. The food was piping hot. It was better that way so I got the heads up after that.
No, things were not at all that rigid when I was in. Not "allowing people to have the blessing of making coffee for you"? What a crock! But, I believe you. I think things were tending toward this kind of legalism the last two years I was in the process of checking out. But some of the things I have heard by folks who stayed through the nineties just blows my mind. Like having your TC go through your finances to make sure you are abs'ing, and monitoring your twig attendance, etc...
I mean, when we ran twigs back in the day (mid 70's-mid 80's), if some one didn't show for twig, it would be more like; "Hey, we haven't seen so and so for awhile, I wonder what's up?" And then I or one of us in twig would give 'em a call and go see how they were doing. And so in that way I guess we "monitored" attendance, but at least for me, like I was taught (and this was straight from VPW), if a person is faithful by coming to twig once a month or once every two months, then that is faithful for him or her or them, and just praise God for it. And if they want to come every night, then praise God for that too. And that is the way I operated as a TC, or BC, as did most of my peers...
This thread seems to have wandered a bit, so I'm going to stray a bit further before returning it where it belongs. Jonny's remark reminded me how we would chide someone if he hadn't been to Twig in a couple of weeks, but if he came back after several MONTHS, he was welcomed back like the prodigal son! A bit screwed up there, I think.
Back to the topic. I was never in the Corps, though I was occasionally ratted on by Corps and other "believers." Near the end of my "tenure" with TWI, it had gotten to the point where I wouldn't share anything with ANYONE, because I knew I'd get hammered for it.
I remember Jonny's time in TWI because I was there in the earlier days when it was a blast to go to twig and to TWI. VPW may have had a little legalism, but from what I saw, he had a lot more grace than LCM.
I know exactly what George St. George is talking about, too. My tenure took me into the nineties, the decade where if you did anything at all, right or wrong, you were chewed out for it. The ministry actually took great pains to find fault. Bad, even dark times in the nineties, during the LCM years that is.
George said " was occasionally ratted on by Corps and other "believers." Near the end of my "tenure" with TWI, it had gotten to the point where I wouldn't share anything with ANYONE, because I knew I'd get hammered for it."
Not only did you not want to say anything to anyone about yourself but about anyone else either. You felt if you said a word, your words would be twisted and perverted to no end.
Once there was a woman watched our youngest child in the mornings for us while we worked. I got to her house too early one morning, felt real bad, she had to run down the stairs to stop me from ringing the door bell. The door flew open so I wouldn't ring the bell and wake her kids, she was standing there in her husbands shirt which was baggy. The wind from the door opening blew the shirt up and low and behold she had herself in her panties exposed to the neighborhood. After a brief whoops and hurry in and shut the door we all laughed. Her husband was walking down the stairs with her robe in hand. We had coffee and went about our way.
Well, we thought this was just histerical, no big deal. Later that evening we were at the limb having dinner and I told or LC what had happened that morning ........ we all laughed again.
Two days later my baby sitter who was also a twig coordinator along with her husband had there twig ripped out from under them and everyone was told she was a lesbian because she found me attractive and intentionally opened the door without clothing on dam near naked.
This woman was not a lesbian and was deeply hurt, her and her husban and family had to go to the LC twig for a long time until they finally were kicked out. This was during craiggers which hunt days. There were so many who tried to be just like him and hurt so many peoples lives.
So that was the beginning of my learning of some peoples intents. I wished I would have learned faster myself ....... but we didn't and kept on teaching the malarchy until we wisened up, but once we left TWI we wisened up real fast having the time to reflect.
Twig Leader Rats Out Long Time Faithful Couple For Something That Never Happened!
I have some dear firends here in Juneau, Alaska, who were still with The Way when we "re-arrived" here in 1993. My wife and I had been out since '89 or so, and had long since given up on trying to help our friends (these friends inparticular) decide to leave The Way. When we came to Juneau this time, it was to work as a merchant seaman with the Alaska Marine Highway, the state ferry system. We came strictly for the employment, and although there were still remnants of the Twig that I came and started back in 1982 (those dear friends), my intention had nothing to do with "wresting them away" from TWI. I was done with all of that.
But because they were our friends and best man and matron of honor at our wedding in Juneau in 1983, we did have a happy reunion with them, and, to their credit, they "consorted with us" even though they knew that it would no doubt be frowned upon by their leadership. And even though I believed them to be involved with what was to us a very tainted, hurtful, and ruined ministry, my wife and I refrained from saying anything negative about TWI, or LCM, or anything about the way we had been treated when we were kicked out. Both of us couples avoided talking about TWI or anything to do with it, other than talk of fun times we had together between the years of 1982-1986 when we were all in Alaska together the first time around. I do remember scanning a Way magazine at their house when I did some house sitting for them and being totally grossed out by some article about homos by Craig that stated that "that the average homosexual consumes at least thirteen pounds of fecal matter by the time they are forty five years old", or something very close to that affect, and being totally grossed out! Man I thought, thiings have really gone down the ....ter with TWI! (pun intended). I'd always thought The Way Mag was "For People Who Loved God And His Word", so what the hell is it coming to? But, I never brought it up to them.
And so, our friendship began to rekindle, although there was a strain slightly below the surface due to our non involvement with The Way. And mind you, I had been an ordained clergyman, and so no doubt they were wrestling with the; "Wow, he was ordained, and yet now copped out" thinking, and it must have been hard for them. But, they were faithful friends and had vowed that they would be our friends, for certainly we were not the "evil type" of cop outs they had been warned about.
In the meantime, I did start a family fellowship in my home, and one other ex way gal in Juneau attended, along with my wife and three kids. As time went on another two from my old Twig moved to town, and they started coming to our fellowship. But mind you, that couple that moved to town, and the single gal, had all left The Way even before the big purges starting in '86. And so, all of a sudden (when I didn't even plan to have more than a fellowship with my family), we had five adults and five kids coming over to my mobile home for fellowship on an irregular basis, when I was home from working on the ferry.
And, none of us ever spoke to our "still in" friends in any negative manner about The Way, for, we had all been friends before, and dagnabbit, we wanted to still be friends. In the meantime, some guy named Bob, the local Corps guy and "branch" leader continued to run what was essentially a Twig. It kind of killed me too, because this guy was a disc jockey for a local radio station, and he had that goofy "Hey there groovy guys and groovy gals! This is KINY Radio!" type of a persona, and it just killed me to hear him on the radio whenever driving down the highway, or when doing a drywall job in between working on the ferries. I have to admit that it rankled me that this guy held so much sway over my friends, but I kept my resolution that I would not try and interfere with my friends who still wanted to fellowship with this guy.
And then, an amazing thing happened. There was another couple in theTWI Twig that wanted to get married. The husband to be wanted to take the class, but for the three years or so that this Bob guy was in Juneau, they(Bob and the Twig) were unable to get a class together. The bride and groom both wanted to be married with both of them being grads, but, there never was a class for him to take. And so, they decided to get married anyway. This was made known to the local Corps guy, and wedding plans were made. And the wedding was to be a big one. The bride is a native American, with Filipino blood as well, and this was to be a big and beautiful wedding as well as a cultural event. She is a wonderful and beautiful child of God, and she was so excited that her wonderful day was finally going to happen! The wedding was to be held at the local ANB Hall (Alaska Native Brotherhood), and it was to have lots of the beauty and pomp and circumstance of a sweet and big wedding . Maybe to say that it was going to be one of those "My Big Fat Tlingit/Filipino Weddings". I can't quit remember if the Corps guy was to perform that wedding, but I think he was. at any rate, at the last minute, like two days before the wedding, the Corps guy "calls it off" because the groom to be was not a PFAL grad! Further more, he told the rest of the Twig that they should not attend the wedding because of their "disobedience", which, none of them did, except for my best man friend and his wife.
Well, this threw the whole thing into a major tails spin. In this part of Alaska, when relatives come to town for things like weddings, many times they come from the nearby villages on the islands through out the Southeast Alaska Archipelago. And this gals' relatives were already arriving! And, this couple was determined to be married after all of this time of waiting. And so, thank God, the bride to be and her husband to be decided that they were going to just do it anyway, regardless of what this Corps guy said, and as you all can imagine, this took a lot of fortitude. And so, all of the sudden, this gal, about to be married, and flush with all of the wonderful yet sometimes scary emotions that flood a person's soul when such a glorious Day is about to arrive, was faced with this whole thing about being "marked and avoided" for "spiritual disobedience", and a whole host of very unpleasant thoughts, and the wedding was only two days away!. Honestly, I believe this guy pulled this stunt with only one day before the wedding, but I am saying "two days" just to be safe in my recitation.
They decided on a justice of the peace to perform the ceremony, and asked myself, and the other couple that had recently moved back to Juneau (all of us Ex-Ways and either from or fruit from our original Juneau Twig) to help out with the wedding. And so, we did the set up, lighting, and, I'm the one who video'd the whole thing, and it came off as a wonderful wedding, and they are still married to this day and living elsewhere in Alaska. It was really fun too, because one of the Grand Mom's kept spiking the punch with vodka afterwards!
Now, here is where the absurdity continues. First of all, because the initial couple (my best man and his wife) I mentioned at the beginning of the story attended the wedding, they became "marked" in some fashion or another, as did the couple who got married. The other couple and myself were already marked. At any rate, that couple was, within a short time after the wedding, accused of attending my home fellowship. The Bob guy "knew" that they had been attending my fellowship because he knew it "spiritually". And our old friends and best man and matron of honor were totally blown away because they were not even asked if they had been to our fellowship. The were simply and blatantly accused of it, and put on some sort of "spiritual probation" or some such baloney. And, since they knew that they had never been to my fellowship, were really hurt by this baseless accusation. And so, they called the limb coordinator in Anchorage, who, apparently just plain went along with the Corps guy Bob in Juneau, and our friends were without recourse. That limb guy may well have said some very absurd things to them, but, I don't recall what they were. At any rate, they were black balled for something they knew that they didn't do, but since "God had told everybody that they'd done it", there was no way for them but OUT. And so, they made their exit, and amazingly, that whole "Old Twig Of Us" was finally back together as friends and believers with no more weird walls of division between us.
And I am so thankful, because I never said anything negative about The Way to them. The Way itslf drove them out....
I remember hearing about this during a Limb Meeting. There were so called "Cop Outs" in Juneau, Eagle River, Kenai and Wasilla at the time. And the New Limb Called a meeting with certain people in Anchorage who had contact with people in these areas.
but .......
The marriage thing was the issue in Juneau and as a matter of fact the whole Juneau area went down shortly after that Wedding. The Limb Coord at the time was the same Limb Coord who accused the women in the story above of being a Lesbian. This Limb Coord was a jerk ......... and the one after him was even worse.
I remember in 1992 a woman named Mary from Juneau came and spent a Lady's night out with all of us Ladies in Anchorage she was great we had a blast with her.
I got into BIG trouble for telling this girl that I had been studying some of the things in craigger's class and had found inconsistencies and things that were wrong. I then mentioned www.blueletterbible.com and some other things on the web I had been using. She told our HFC that I was going on the internet.
I got called into a confrontational meeting with our HFC and my ex and was totally reamed for it. I not once metioned anti-way websites. The thing that peeved this girl off was that I was telling her things were wrong that we were being taught. Instead of considering or looking up what I told her, she just turned me in for being insubordinate. :blink:
Hey, no doubt Mary is the one of whom I wrote who was the bride in the incident. She is wonderful and a friend, and now the mother of two. Her husband, a Brazillian, and now an American Citizen is a very good friend of mine, and they live in Palmer. Her husband, as an "alien", immigration wise, must have had some amazing patience during that time. But he was strong, for he loved Mary and wanted her for his wife. And, she is his wife, and life is great for them. PM me if you want to get to know them. They have a wonderful fellowship in Palmer/Wasilla, and it is by no means a "waybrain" clone-ish kind of a thing, but the integrity of God's Word is respected there...
The marriage thing was the issue in Juneau and as a matter of fact the whole Juneau area went down shortly after that Wedding.
And, I am proud that I was involved in all of that, for, that really was my old Twig. And we were tight, and it broke my heart to see what had happened to it, and when the dust settled and the smoke cleared, I was so thankful that so many of my friends came to the place that they could begin to see clearly again. And I am so blessed to see that it was GOD who opened their eyes and that it had nothing to do with any manipulation on my part. If I did anything, I only prayed. It was just God and His love for His people...
Tears to my eyes ...... Wow remembering those days. I am soooooooo happy for Mary she was a blast, histerically funny and just a doll. I was pretty sure it was her wedding you were talking about, I am glad I brought her up .......... those were the days.
I am happy you were part of bringing that area down. I am sorry that I was any part of Anchorage who had any input at the time ......... but when I walked out of the Way I left it all behind. It was only a few years later that I was gone myself.
Thanks for what you did for Juneau hon. FREEDOM is great.
PM is on the way would love to get in touch with Mary.
I personally saw the results of so many people who were ratted out, I cannot begin to catalog all the incidents...
I've seen people break down crying over the chewing out they received as a result of being ratted out. It was encouraged, if you held out, you were "spiritually out to lunch"...They kept tabs on people and used fear to motivate the whole system.
Makes me think of the movie "Scent of a woman"...When Al Pacino yells out "But at least he's not a snitch".
One of the major issues for me is when king okie started demanding that twig coordinators report on a regular basis as to who was "faithful" and who was not. To me this was unacceptable...anyone in your fellowship that was not "towing the line"...you had to rat out on a regular basis!
There were other issues as well, but this "ratting out thing" was definitely instrumental in my leaving twi.
The last night I ever attended a TWI function was January 10, 1996, and the last conversation I had with the Twig Coordinator's wife (formerly a close friend) was along the lines of: "So you're saying that anything I say to you any more you are going to 'report back" to J*m D*rr (major arse)..." Then she said yes, explaining that I was "suspect" (after ONLY 23.5 years in TWI, mind you) because the husband of the former Twig Area coordinators that had been Marked and Avoided had witnessed to me ...
That's when I KNEW it was time to go .... such a betrayal of Godly friendships and confidences ... it was just a witch hunt among the believers ... and that was just the beginning, from what I've heard here.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
that sucks but is so typical of twi
i have learned over the years that a leader leads by example
that perhaps was true years ago
i saw it many times
but i can see in the recent years that went the way of the model t
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mstar1
I was never in the corps but I became more nad more distrustful of them for the most part as I continued on in TWI. I had a hard time thinking about good things remebered about the corps in the other thread, I only knew a handful that seemed normal and lived 'quiet and peaceable lives' went about their business , left you alone but were there if you needed them. Those I liked but they seemed few and far between to me.
Too many knew everything about everything, including everything I should be doing and how I should be doing it at any given time and would sell their soul, their friends or their own mothers to brownnose anyone further up the dunghill than them. The power structure built it to be a haven and a sort of breeding ground, if people had that propensity, for rats. Not all of them-but enough
They thought that they have "no friends when it comes to the word' but in the end they'll just have ' no friends"
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excathedra
see this is what i'm talking about
this is screwed (see what word i used mr. moderator) up, plain and simplewhat is wrong with people ? and why am i experiencing being called on the carpet for minor infractions here ? even though i don't believe for a second they are infractions
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Belle
Whew, I really didn't want to see the title to this thread. Although I've never been corps, I've been on both sides of this and neither side is pretty.
My ex is/was like a son to this one couple. The husband and he did everything together. The husband sold his business to go full time WC and then had to start again all over from scratch since they were one of the first ones dropped from WC by Moneyhands as soon as the ROA was over. He was getting increasingly frustrated with TWI and, I believe would have left TWI at that time if it hadn't been for his wife.
Anyway, this man and my ex were talking while they were painting about craiggers and what he did all day and how hard it was to get everything done THEY, as husbands, workers, HFCs, etc. had to get done. The husband said something about craiggers having it easy and having other people do all those things for him and that he really didn't have much to do during the day and that his responsibility load was nil compared to theirs.
Well, my husband was offended, surprised and angry that this man would speak ill of the MOGFART. He KNEW that wasn't right. We talked it over and he decided the best thing to do was to call our local WC and tell them what was said. It ended up being a confrontation meeting with this couple, us and the WC couple. My ex and I were so serious and so, so....I don't know what we were.....but the couple was moved to another fellowship and not allowed to run another one for a while.
Looking back it was nothing. It was just an off the cuff comment that we now know to have been more true than any of us could have imagined. :unsure: I feel like one big tattle tale. There was NO reason why we should have blown one comment up into such a big deal. We were so effen self-righteous it's sickening. It was a private conversation between two people who loved and trusted one another. I can only imagine how betrayed this man must have felt by my husband and then by both of us as a couple. This man calls my ex "the son he never had". How's that for a huge stab in the back?
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Eagle
Whoa,
These are pretty decent replies. Exie and Belle have experience. I was a TC for a while, about three and a half years, and while I never turned anyone in, did get judgmental to the point of turning people off from my fellowship. I was taught this way. I was not taught to turn people in, but I did not go that far into the Corps program.
To be fair and honest, there were some great Corps people out there. They were not abusive but pretty fair and even loving. When the abuse came down the pike, apparently ordered by LCM by people I have spoken with that were there, (I witnessed some of his own abuse myself), the Corps that refused to do it just turned him down and left, preferring to be "marked and avoided" and kicked out of the Corps rather than do what was ordered.
Tough times in those days. Belle, that was a wonderful posting. I know exactly what you were talking about. And I know we all here, if we could travel back in time, would reverse a lot of things. Exie, I saw you speak of it once and didn't get to reply. It was a while back. It just came to thought recently what you were talking about so I posted my personal experience.
Eagle
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J0nny Ling0
I ratted out a couple of guys whom I caught in the middle of a homosexual act back in 1980 at Emporia. This was way before the "homo purges". I was delivering the mail one day at in the Hallowed Halls of Uncle Harry High Rise one day when this happened. As I customarily did when delivering the mail, I knocked first on the dorm room door, waited, said; "hellooo!", and when no one answered, I opened the door to step in and put the mail on top of the dresser. But, imagine my surprise when I walked in on these two guys in the midst of the very act! I was pretty flabbergasted, for I would never even ever had expected to find that going on in the Corps :o . I just closed the door and walked out. And so, yeah, I guess I ratted them out by telling the Corps coordinator. I just didn't feel that there was a place for that in a Christian leadership training program.
But, I would never squeal on anyone for something petty. Shoot, I was always sneaking off and fishing at Gunnison, or, going jogging with a buddy with money in my socks and then go to a movie. I walked in on an engaged couple in the attic of Kenyon Hall who were very intertwined at the moment, but I just grinned at them because they were in love and it was okay with me. I was up there so I could watch the sunset out of the east attic window that was high enough to see over that Kansas tree line.
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Eagle
The sex thing was a major violation and behavior like that did not belong at TWI or any other church and the two guys should have not joined the Corps. They knew what the doctrine was, knew how everyone else felt about that and came in anyway. Yeah, turning in major violators like that was expected. It always was.
The same went for heterosexual couples having sex on the grounds. If caught, they were to be kicked out, too. Of course, LCM was the exception. HA!
Other petty "violations" included buying coffee and bring it in instead of letting a Corps brother or sister make it for you. They lost the blessing, therefore, I cheated them. I got chewed out for that.
Another was when I was just learning to interpret tongues, I had a hard time. So a Corps member "cast out the devil spirit" causing it.
I did not like VPW's Christian Family and Sex class. I was told I did not have spiritual insight. Hell, I just thought the class was weird.
Another time I picked up a second hand suit that was not that modern, but it was a suit and I used it for functions. I had no money after tithing and abundantly sharing to TWI. I got the "look" from leadership as if I failed in life, or something.
As Apprentice Corps, I was in charge one time of a dinner setup at the BRC. We prayed for the success of the dinner after the teaching there. When the teaching was over, the food was not yet at the designated stations. I got "the look" (the you are an evil, worthless person look) until just as the believers entered so did the food. The food made it exactly a couple of seconds before the people got to eat it. The food was piping hot. It was better that way so I got the heads up after that.
There are others. The list keeps going...
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J0nny Ling0
No, things were not at all that rigid when I was in. Not "allowing people to have the blessing of making coffee for you"? What a crock! But, I believe you. I think things were tending toward this kind of legalism the last two years I was in the process of checking out. But some of the things I have heard by folks who stayed through the nineties just blows my mind. Like having your TC go through your finances to make sure you are abs'ing, and monitoring your twig attendance, etc...
I mean, when we ran twigs back in the day (mid 70's-mid 80's), if some one didn't show for twig, it would be more like; "Hey, we haven't seen so and so for awhile, I wonder what's up?" And then I or one of us in twig would give 'em a call and go see how they were doing. And so in that way I guess we "monitored" attendance, but at least for me, like I was taught (and this was straight from VPW), if a person is faithful by coming to twig once a month or once every two months, then that is faithful for him or her or them, and just praise God for it. And if they want to come every night, then praise God for that too. And that is the way I operated as a TC, or BC, as did most of my peers...
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GeorgeStGeorge
This thread seems to have wandered a bit, so I'm going to stray a bit further before returning it where it belongs. Jonny's remark reminded me how we would chide someone if he hadn't been to Twig in a couple of weeks, but if he came back after several MONTHS, he was welcomed back like the prodigal son! A bit screwed up there, I think.
Back to the topic. I was never in the Corps, though I was occasionally ratted on by Corps and other "believers." Near the end of my "tenure" with TWI, it had gotten to the point where I wouldn't share anything with ANYONE, because I knew I'd get hammered for it.
George
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Eagle
I remember Jonny's time in TWI because I was there in the earlier days when it was a blast to go to twig and to TWI. VPW may have had a little legalism, but from what I saw, he had a lot more grace than LCM.
I know exactly what George St. George is talking about, too. My tenure took me into the nineties, the decade where if you did anything at all, right or wrong, you were chewed out for it. The ministry actually took great pains to find fault. Bad, even dark times in the nineties, during the LCM years that is.
Eagle
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Digitalis
George said " was occasionally ratted on by Corps and other "believers." Near the end of my "tenure" with TWI, it had gotten to the point where I wouldn't share anything with ANYONE, because I knew I'd get hammered for it."
Not only did you not want to say anything to anyone about yourself but about anyone else either. You felt if you said a word, your words would be twisted and perverted to no end.
Once there was a woman watched our youngest child in the mornings for us while we worked. I got to her house too early one morning, felt real bad, she had to run down the stairs to stop me from ringing the door bell. The door flew open so I wouldn't ring the bell and wake her kids, she was standing there in her husbands shirt which was baggy. The wind from the door opening blew the shirt up and low and behold she had herself in her panties exposed to the neighborhood. After a brief whoops and hurry in and shut the door we all laughed. Her husband was walking down the stairs with her robe in hand. We had coffee and went about our way.
Well, we thought this was just histerical, no big deal. Later that evening we were at the limb having dinner and I told or LC what had happened that morning ........ we all laughed again.
Two days later my baby sitter who was also a twig coordinator along with her husband had there twig ripped out from under them and everyone was told she was a lesbian because she found me attractive and intentionally opened the door without clothing on dam near naked.
This woman was not a lesbian and was deeply hurt, her and her husban and family had to go to the LC twig for a long time until they finally were kicked out. This was during craiggers which hunt days. There were so many who tried to be just like him and hurt so many peoples lives.
So that was the beginning of my learning of some peoples intents. I wished I would have learned faster myself ....... but we didn't and kept on teaching the malarchy until we wisened up, but once we left TWI we wisened up real fast having the time to reflect.
Digi
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J0nny Ling0
Twig Leader Rats Out Long Time Faithful Couple For Something That Never Happened!
I have some dear firends here in Juneau, Alaska, who were still with The Way when we "re-arrived" here in 1993. My wife and I had been out since '89 or so, and had long since given up on trying to help our friends (these friends inparticular) decide to leave The Way. When we came to Juneau this time, it was to work as a merchant seaman with the Alaska Marine Highway, the state ferry system. We came strictly for the employment, and although there were still remnants of the Twig that I came and started back in 1982 (those dear friends), my intention had nothing to do with "wresting them away" from TWI. I was done with all of that.
But because they were our friends and best man and matron of honor at our wedding in Juneau in 1983, we did have a happy reunion with them, and, to their credit, they "consorted with us" even though they knew that it would no doubt be frowned upon by their leadership. And even though I believed them to be involved with what was to us a very tainted, hurtful, and ruined ministry, my wife and I refrained from saying anything negative about TWI, or LCM, or anything about the way we had been treated when we were kicked out. Both of us couples avoided talking about TWI or anything to do with it, other than talk of fun times we had together between the years of 1982-1986 when we were all in Alaska together the first time around. I do remember scanning a Way magazine at their house when I did some house sitting for them and being totally grossed out by some article about homos by Craig that stated that "that the average homosexual consumes at least thirteen pounds of fecal matter by the time they are forty five years old", or something very close to that affect, and being totally grossed out! Man I thought, thiings have really gone down the ....ter with TWI! (pun intended). I'd always thought The Way Mag was "For People Who Loved God And His Word", so what the hell is it coming to? But, I never brought it up to them.
And so, our friendship began to rekindle, although there was a strain slightly below the surface due to our non involvement with The Way. And mind you, I had been an ordained clergyman, and so no doubt they were wrestling with the; "Wow, he was ordained, and yet now copped out" thinking, and it must have been hard for them. But, they were faithful friends and had vowed that they would be our friends, for certainly we were not the "evil type" of cop outs they had been warned about.
In the meantime, I did start a family fellowship in my home, and one other ex way gal in Juneau attended, along with my wife and three kids. As time went on another two from my old Twig moved to town, and they started coming to our fellowship. But mind you, that couple that moved to town, and the single gal, had all left The Way even before the big purges starting in '86. And so, all of a sudden (when I didn't even plan to have more than a fellowship with my family), we had five adults and five kids coming over to my mobile home for fellowship on an irregular basis, when I was home from working on the ferry.
And, none of us ever spoke to our "still in" friends in any negative manner about The Way, for, we had all been friends before, and dagnabbit, we wanted to still be friends. In the meantime, some guy named Bob, the local Corps guy and "branch" leader continued to run what was essentially a Twig. It kind of killed me too, because this guy was a disc jockey for a local radio station, and he had that goofy "Hey there groovy guys and groovy gals! This is KINY Radio!" type of a persona, and it just killed me to hear him on the radio whenever driving down the highway, or when doing a drywall job in between working on the ferries. I have to admit that it rankled me that this guy held so much sway over my friends, but I kept my resolution that I would not try and interfere with my friends who still wanted to fellowship with this guy.
And then, an amazing thing happened. There was another couple in theTWI Twig that wanted to get married. The husband to be wanted to take the class, but for the three years or so that this Bob guy was in Juneau, they(Bob and the Twig) were unable to get a class together. The bride and groom both wanted to be married with both of them being grads, but, there never was a class for him to take. And so, they decided to get married anyway. This was made known to the local Corps guy, and wedding plans were made. And the wedding was to be a big one. The bride is a native American, with Filipino blood as well, and this was to be a big and beautiful wedding as well as a cultural event. She is a wonderful and beautiful child of God, and she was so excited that her wonderful day was finally going to happen! The wedding was to be held at the local ANB Hall (Alaska Native Brotherhood), and it was to have lots of the beauty and pomp and circumstance of a sweet and big wedding . Maybe to say that it was going to be one of those "My Big Fat Tlingit/Filipino Weddings". I can't quit remember if the Corps guy was to perform that wedding, but I think he was. at any rate, at the last minute, like two days before the wedding, the Corps guy "calls it off" because the groom to be was not a PFAL grad! Further more, he told the rest of the Twig that they should not attend the wedding because of their "disobedience", which, none of them did, except for my best man friend and his wife.
Well, this threw the whole thing into a major tails spin. In this part of Alaska, when relatives come to town for things like weddings, many times they come from the nearby villages on the islands through out the Southeast Alaska Archipelago. And this gals' relatives were already arriving! And, this couple was determined to be married after all of this time of waiting. And so, thank God, the bride to be and her husband to be decided that they were going to just do it anyway, regardless of what this Corps guy said, and as you all can imagine, this took a lot of fortitude. And so, all of the sudden, this gal, about to be married, and flush with all of the wonderful yet sometimes scary emotions that flood a person's soul when such a glorious Day is about to arrive, was faced with this whole thing about being "marked and avoided" for "spiritual disobedience", and a whole host of very unpleasant thoughts, and the wedding was only two days away!. Honestly, I believe this guy pulled this stunt with only one day before the wedding, but I am saying "two days" just to be safe in my recitation.
They decided on a justice of the peace to perform the ceremony, and asked myself, and the other couple that had recently moved back to Juneau (all of us Ex-Ways and either from or fruit from our original Juneau Twig) to help out with the wedding. And so, we did the set up, lighting, and, I'm the one who video'd the whole thing, and it came off as a wonderful wedding, and they are still married to this day and living elsewhere in Alaska. It was really fun too, because one of the Grand Mom's kept spiking the punch with vodka afterwards!
Now, here is where the absurdity continues. First of all, because the initial couple (my best man and his wife) I mentioned at the beginning of the story attended the wedding, they became "marked" in some fashion or another, as did the couple who got married. The other couple and myself were already marked. At any rate, that couple was, within a short time after the wedding, accused of attending my home fellowship. The Bob guy "knew" that they had been attending my fellowship because he knew it "spiritually". And our old friends and best man and matron of honor were totally blown away because they were not even asked if they had been to our fellowship. The were simply and blatantly accused of it, and put on some sort of "spiritual probation" or some such baloney. And, since they knew that they had never been to my fellowship, were really hurt by this baseless accusation. And so, they called the limb coordinator in Anchorage, who, apparently just plain went along with the Corps guy Bob in Juneau, and our friends were without recourse. That limb guy may well have said some very absurd things to them, but, I don't recall what they were. At any rate, they were black balled for something they knew that they didn't do, but since "God had told everybody that they'd done it", there was no way for them but OUT. And so, they made their exit, and amazingly, that whole "Old Twig Of Us" was finally back together as friends and believers with no more weird walls of division between us.
And I am so thankful, because I never said anything negative about The Way to them. The Way itslf drove them out....
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Digitalis
Oh My Gawd Johny,
I remember hearing about this during a Limb Meeting. There were so called "Cop Outs" in Juneau, Eagle River, Kenai and Wasilla at the time. And the New Limb Called a meeting with certain people in Anchorage who had contact with people in these areas.
but .......
The marriage thing was the issue in Juneau and as a matter of fact the whole Juneau area went down shortly after that Wedding. The Limb Coord at the time was the same Limb Coord who accused the women in the story above of being a Lesbian. This Limb Coord was a jerk ......... and the one after him was even worse.
I remember in 1992 a woman named Mary from Juneau came and spent a Lady's night out with all of us Ladies in Anchorage she was great we had a blast with her.
Digi
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Jim
Unfskingbelievable, Johnny....
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Belle
What Jim said! :blink:
I got into BIG trouble for telling this girl that I had been studying some of the things in craigger's class and had found inconsistencies and things that were wrong. I then mentioned www.blueletterbible.com and some other things on the web I had been using. She told our HFC that I was going on the internet.
I got called into a confrontational meeting with our HFC and my ex and was totally reamed for it. I not once metioned anti-way websites. The thing that peeved this girl off was that I was telling her things were wrong that we were being taught. Instead of considering or looking up what I told her, she just turned me in for being insubordinate. :blink:
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J0nny Ling0
Hey, no doubt Mary is the one of whom I wrote who was the bride in the incident. She is wonderful and a friend, and now the mother of two. Her husband, a Brazillian, and now an American Citizen is a very good friend of mine, and they live in Palmer. Her husband, as an "alien", immigration wise, must have had some amazing patience during that time. But he was strong, for he loved Mary and wanted her for his wife. And, she is his wife, and life is great for them. PM me if you want to get to know them. They have a wonderful fellowship in Palmer/Wasilla, and it is by no means a "waybrain" clone-ish kind of a thing, but the integrity of God's Word is respected there...
And, I am proud that I was involved in all of that, for, that really was my old Twig. And we were tight, and it broke my heart to see what had happened to it, and when the dust settled and the smoke cleared, I was so thankful that so many of my friends came to the place that they could begin to see clearly again. And I am so blessed to see that it was GOD who opened their eyes and that it had nothing to do with any manipulation on my part. If I did anything, I only prayed. It was just God and His love for His people...
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Digitalis
Johny,
Tears to my eyes ...... Wow remembering those days. I am soooooooo happy for Mary she was a blast, histerically funny and just a doll. I was pretty sure it was her wedding you were talking about, I am glad I brought her up .......... those were the days.
I am happy you were part of bringing that area down. I am sorry that I was any part of Anchorage who had any input at the time ......... but when I walked out of the Way I left it all behind. It was only a few years later that I was gone myself.
Thanks for what you did for Juneau hon. FREEDOM is great.
PM is on the way would love to get in touch with Mary.
Digi
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topoftheworld
Johny, you're a classy guy!
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J0nny Ling0
Thanks y'all. And Top Of The World,
Did we PM a while back? I think we did. MAL Twig in the Corps? Or was it the LEAD "event?"
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topoftheworld
Johny,
The LEAD thing. If I'd had a guy like you in my corner, I might have come out alright.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
jonny
you have got to be a class act
thanks for shareing that wonderful story about the wedding
i am also glad to say a lot of my old twig mates and i are still friends today even though we don't "twig" any more
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GrouchoMarxJr
jonny IS a class act. B)
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Now back to the "ratting out" thing.
I personally saw the results of so many people who were ratted out, I cannot begin to catalog all the incidents...
I've seen people break down crying over the chewing out they received as a result of being ratted out. It was encouraged, if you held out, you were "spiritually out to lunch"...They kept tabs on people and used fear to motivate the whole system.
Makes me think of the movie "Scent of a woman"...When Al Pacino yells out "But at least he's not a snitch".
One of the major issues for me is when king okie started demanding that twig coordinators report on a regular basis as to who was "faithful" and who was not. To me this was unacceptable...anyone in your fellowship that was not "towing the line"...you had to rat out on a regular basis!
There were other issues as well, but this "ratting out thing" was definitely instrumental in my leaving twi.
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ToadFriend
The last night I ever attended a TWI function was January 10, 1996, and the last conversation I had with the Twig Coordinator's wife (formerly a close friend) was along the lines of: "So you're saying that anything I say to you any more you are going to 'report back" to J*m D*rr (major arse)..." Then she said yes, explaining that I was "suspect" (after ONLY 23.5 years in TWI, mind you) because the husband of the former Twig Area coordinators that had been Marked and Avoided had witnessed to me ...
That's when I KNEW it was time to go .... such a betrayal of Godly friendships and confidences ... it was just a witch hunt among the believers ... and that was just the beginning, from what I've heard here.
TF
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