I hate to admit this, but on one tiny little point, I agree with Oldies *wince*:(
Whether we realized it or not, if you were heavily involved in TWI, you were standing with a man, and that man was Wierwille, and later Martindale.
Don't get me wrong, the demand for a written declaration of loyalty, in light of his previous admission that what Geer said in POP was right, was a red flag, and a not-so-subtle hint to get out! But to say "I stand with God" implies that TWI didn't involve standing with a man, when it clearly did. "Don't give me that standing with God crap" does not address whether someone is actually standing with God, but the avoidance of the question of which man or organization that the believer will be "standing with God" with.
You don't need anybody or any group to stand with God? I agree...now, but that's not what TWI taught.
>>I understand. That's why you got fooled. Some of us didn't.
Thats a pretty snide and arrogant remark.
Maybe it possible you missed some markings on your own......this is not totaly about who is fooled or not...if you ever want someone to come to a better understanding of a situation.....I would never bring this to them an put this in thier face....
The notion that LCM was just fine and dandy in '89 is recycled suds. On that I stand. In. When reading that he was.
Something I've never shared in wonderful detail with anyone but my Wife is that LCM's Big Letter and subsequent actions to support it seemed - to me - to be ever so slightly - unmanly. Is that a word? I hope so. Not an adult, mature action to be taking given the 3 years since '86. Other words that might convey my impression then - weiney. Wussy-like. Pass the skirts, we're all out of pants now. You know, kind of well, weiney.
To some it probably seemed like spiritual hootin' and hollerin' time. YEAH!! TAKE A STAND!!! STOP MESSIN' AROUND NOW, DONCHA KNOW!!! Get on the track or get off it, buddy!!!
But coming from a person who'd been taking it in the...pants for 3 years, it held no water, no weight. Follow...who? Stand with who was that, with what? Who sent that letter? Ooooh, I remember that guy, he used to be President of the Way. Yeah.
So I offer this observation, fully aware I may be alone in that impression, but maybe not. Either way, for what it's worth.....more scintillating observations you thought you could live without.
i'm not sure he was ever fine. what am i trying to say ? i was never fine either. i talked with him one-on-one many times but we were both so wierwille-ized i don't think it counts.
From all accounts, Martindale was acting like a whipped puppy from POP onwards. The whole chest beating thing just didn't make sense, did it?
In retrospect, Martindale, Allen and Don Wierwille appear to have had been going along with what Geer said just so he'd shut up; like a kid who tells his parents he'll behave, all the while planning his next act of rebellion
I have to say that I came to the same conclusion: Martindale was just giving lip service to Geer until he could get a handle on which way the wind was blowing. I think he took the whole thing, not as a "realignment" of the direction of the ministry, but more of a direct attack on his own perverted actions, from the "Athlete's" fiasco on. Geer was short on details, at least in this setting: you have to believe that things discussed in the previous days contained info that wasn't for public consumption, and that was more than he could take.
What is tragic is that the people that were brought in as witnesses, like Art Poling, who were participants in hearing the garbage presented, were then thoroughly trashed. Well, if there were people around for your public flogging, then when the opportunity to throw them out and then destroy their character or standing with God became available, wouldn't you take it?
>>I understand. That's why you got fooled. Some of us didn't.
Thats a pretty snide and arrogant remark.
Maybe it possible you missed some markings on your own......this is not totaly about who is fooled or not...if you ever want someone to come to a better understanding of a situation.....I would never bring this to them an put this in thier face....
LAE,
I say this unequivocally:
Anyone who stayed after 1989 got fooled. I'm not rubbing it in their faces. (Perhaps you are not aware that Oldies and I have disagreed on this publicly for several years now. Nothing I say on the subject surprises him; nothing he says on the subject surprises me).
There's nothing snide or arrogant in what I said. Sorry you took it that way. LCM cleverly masked an egotistical power grab as a reasonable request.
Now, I do acknowledge that many who left got fooled, too. Not knowing Chris Geer, it took me longer to see what a doctrinal problem he was. And it wasn't until many years later that I knew his role in TWI pre-POP. Thing was, by that point my closest friends and I were so adamant about not following men that we didn't follow Chris Geer off the doctrinal deep end. That's a separate issue, one I'll be happy to address.
But it doesn't change the fact that LCM snookered everyone, and Chris Geer snookered lots of people too. The difference is, many who left with CG were better off because we had a little practice at distancing ourselves from a would be MOG. When it came time to shake CG off our sandals, it was a piece of cake by then.
What we all should have done was left any vestige of TWI and TWGB (Geer) in the rear view mirror.
I suppose one of the big attractions for me personally, when I first got involved with twi (1975), was the fact that Wierwille had an open door policy..."There's no strangers at the Way"...People came and went as they pleased. My first roa was more like a rock concert...You didn't have to sign any loyalty oaths, in fact one of Wierwille's favorite sayings was that "the Way has no members, that way nobody can be kicked out"...followed by a hearty laugh.
project 12 years into the future...
Vic the grifter is dead and king okie has been on his throne for about two years. Most of the young people who were at my first roa, are now corps grads...everything is strict...legalism became the order of the day. The entire complexion of twi had changed...
...And then the era of pop and the Scheinheit controversy, and the mass firings began...it seemed CLEAR to me that Martindale had gone out of his frickin' mind and was leading twi down the tubes...this was 1987
When Raf says that anyone who stayed after 1989 got fooled, he's making an understatement. I don't want to insult anyone who DID stay after 1989 (everyone's situation was different)...but if I were to put it in "wayspeak"...A "spirit of delusion" had swept into the waytree, from the top down...and was pruning it like Edward Scissorhands.
Many folks felt betrayed, hurt and confused...I don't blame people who splintered off into groups, following whoever...as for myself, I went my own way alone...I'd had enough.
...And my earliest memories of Martindale in 1975 was that he was a raving maniac then with an ego the size of Texas.
I don't recall your being on HQ staff in the mid-80s, Oldies. I was. Craig was already screaming and accusing and demanding and screwing around at that point in history. In fact, he was doing so before POP was even read to Corps and Staff in '86. He was already advocating things that were contrary to the Word of God and treating people like crap. He had lost any sort of loyalty I might have felt toward him as a twi leader before CG ever accused him of a thing, because of his behavior.
And this is one thing about VPW that really puzzled me at the time and later pi$$ed me off when I was seeing the situation more clearly--his uncanny ability to put a$$ kissers in positions of authority over God's precious people who had no business being there.
What was wrong with LCM I woudln't necessarily characterize as "evil'; rather, he was just one more example of someone pushed upward through the ranks of twi because of personality or money or influence too fast for his own (and everyone else's) good...
Hi Linda, thanks for your input.
If you say Craig was a control freak in the 80's, I'm not going to argue with you, you were there.
My viewpoint comes from being out on the field in NY where I wasn't exposed to his daily behavior, mannerisms, words, etc., ... coupled with getting information (or lack thereof) from folks who stood with the Sultan of Aloofness.
So therefore, I retract my statement "He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but".
As for the rest of my opinion in that paragraph/post, I think it's accurate.
It's accurate to your perception, Oldies. Not to the reality of what was going on behind the scenes. (My impression was also inaccurate as to what was going on behind the scenes, as I did not know CG was what he apparently was. I always thought he was a good, if dull, teacher).
... But to say "I stand with God" implies that TWI didn't involve standing with a man, when it clearly did. "Don't give me that standing with God crap" does not address whether someone is actually standing with God, but the avoidance of the question of which man or organization that the believer will be "standing with God" with.
Right on, Oakspear! Yea Oakspear...yea Oakspear...
Here is an excerpt from Craig's Loyalty Letter I of March, 1989:
The time has come to draw the line. I understand it is not the will of the Lord to follow personalities above God. I also understand I Corinthians 3 and what carnality is. It is, however, God's will for believers to work together in love, believing, and mutual trust. The lines are so obviously drawn that it's time to bring it forth in common, plain talk, allowing you as a salaried Staff member of The Way International to decide and express which way you're going to go. God first, but you must decide with whom you want to work and fellowship. To stand with God means to do His Word and Will. That includes walking with mutual love and respect and like-mindedness and one accord. Each of us must decide with whom we want to do that...
and the letter that he sent to us said we had to make up our minds...whether to stand with him and the ministry that taught us God`s word.....and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap.....
To simply publishing a small parcel of one of THREE letters ....the one written to staff.....does not make any point....nor shed an accurate light on the oath itself being required of those out on the field who were not salaried employees or in a position of responsibility.....
We were required to write an oath of loyalty to lcm.....who DIDN`T give the recipients of the third letter any room to wiggle.
If one refused to write an oath of allegiance to lcm...you were then sent a horrible letter....your corpes status removed.....he was so childish....it was the only thing that he could think of to hurt us.......like a thwarted bully....he was gonna mess us up any way he could.
Lets see.... swear an oath of allegiance to someone who called standing with God *crap*
Might have been a little tougher had we not seen personally him go half cocked and act on completely false information.....not bothering to make a small efort to aprise himself of the truth......nor bothering to apologise when he was proven wrong.
He reminds me of a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.....lying flat on his back.....fists and heals drumming on the floor....howling his frustration.....and while acceptable on a two year old...it ISN`T pretty on a grown mog.......Geeze what a goon.
It's accurate to your perception, Oldies. Not to the reality of what was going on behind the scenes. (My impression was also inaccurate as to what was going on behind the scenes, as I did not know CG was what he apparently was. I always thought he was a good, if dull, teacher).
I still disagree with you.
I still believe that the decision to stand with Craig, in the movement of the Word, was the right one for that day and time.
The Word was still being preached to the extent it was being preach when VP was around, .. all the programs were still in place. All the possibilities for folks who wanted to hear the Word we had heard and approved of for so long was there ... the human "potential" was there to keep on preaching, keep on moving the Word.
Here is an excerpt from Craig's letter:
Let me add that the Board of Trustees plans to continue supporting the programs and activities that Dr. Wierwille began, some of which are: Sunday night teachings from International Headquarters with available audio and video tape; the church in the home according to the Book of Acts; the Power for Abundant Living class series; Way Family Camps; Way Corps; Word Over the World Ambassadors; The Way College Biblical Studies program; The University of Life; The Way Magazine and other publications; Bookstore; various seminars on the field and at our Root locations; the Rock of Ages; as well as anything else we can do, by God's grace, to lovingly help meet the expressed godly desires of those choosing to fellowship within The Way Ministry.
lcm's letter had all the right "buzz words" for all those who wished to follow him. And, it did not satify concerns of those who had questions concerning lcm and the direction he was moving twi in.
By the time the letter was issused... Many people were forming opinions concerning lcm and twi. The letter helped those who were making up there mind of which way things were going.
Many good people were fooled by lcm's letter and continued to follow lcm. History has proved this.
Today, we have the luxury of knowing what was going on at the time. With the knowledge of things past, we know that leaving twi was the best thing to do and staying was a mistake.
The biggest clue that staying was a mistake after the letter was... How twi treated and talked about the people who had left. It should have been clear that "the love of God" had left twi.
I still believe that the decision to stand with Craig, in the movement of the Word, was the right one for that day and time.
And Mussolini made the trains run on time, but as has already been established, Craig was already off his rocker by this point. The fact that he succeeded in keeping it from you was admirable on his part. But his descent had already begun. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't true. Lots of things you don't see are true.
What Oldiesman is saying is tantamount to saying that after Titanic hit the iceberg, the smart thing to do was stay on board until things got REALLY bad.
No. The smart thing to do would have been to get into a lifeboat forthwith.
Unfortunately, many of us got into lifeboats that had leaks in them, while others just jumped into the water. But we survived, and we weren't on the Titanic as it sank. History proved us right.
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excathedra
wow another honest person
right sunesis ? ;)
thanks toppy !
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Oakspear
I hate to admit this, but on one tiny little point, I agree with Oldies *wince*:(
Whether we realized it or not, if you were heavily involved in TWI, you were standing with a man, and that man was Wierwille, and later Martindale.
Don't get me wrong, the demand for a written declaration of loyalty, in light of his previous admission that what Geer said in POP was right, was a red flag, and a not-so-subtle hint to get out! But to say "I stand with God" implies that TWI didn't involve standing with a man, when it clearly did. "Don't give me that standing with God crap" does not address whether someone is actually standing with God, but the avoidance of the question of which man or organization that the believer will be "standing with God" with.
You don't need anybody or any group to stand with God? I agree...now, but that's not what TWI taught.
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excathedra
i agree
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likeaneagle
Raf-
>>I understand. That's why you got fooled. Some of us didn't.
Thats a pretty snide and arrogant remark.
Maybe it possible you missed some markings on your own......this is not totaly about who is fooled or not...if you ever want someone to come to a better understanding of a situation.....I would never bring this to them an put this in thier face....
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socks
The notion that LCM was just fine and dandy in '89 is recycled suds. On that I stand. In. When reading that he was.
Something I've never shared in wonderful detail with anyone but my Wife is that LCM's Big Letter and subsequent actions to support it seemed - to me - to be ever so slightly - unmanly. Is that a word? I hope so. Not an adult, mature action to be taking given the 3 years since '86. Other words that might convey my impression then - weiney. Wussy-like. Pass the skirts, we're all out of pants now. You know, kind of well, weiney.
To some it probably seemed like spiritual hootin' and hollerin' time. YEAH!! TAKE A STAND!!! STOP MESSIN' AROUND NOW, DONCHA KNOW!!! Get on the track or get off it, buddy!!!
But coming from a person who'd been taking it in the...pants for 3 years, it held no water, no weight. Follow...who? Stand with who was that, with what? Who sent that letter? Ooooh, I remember that guy, he used to be President of the Way. Yeah.
So I offer this observation, fully aware I may be alone in that impression, but maybe not. Either way, for what it's worth.....more scintillating observations you thought you could live without.
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excathedra
i'm not sure he was ever fine. what am i trying to say ? i was never fine either. i talked with him one-on-one many times but we were both so wierwille-ized i don't think it counts.
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Oakspear
socks:
That makes sense.
From all accounts, Martindale was acting like a whipped puppy from POP onwards. The whole chest beating thing just didn't make sense, did it?
In retrospect, Martindale, Allen and Don Wierwille appear to have had been going along with what Geer said just so he'd shut up; like a kid who tells his parents he'll behave, all the while planning his next act of rebellion
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topoftheworld
I have to say that I came to the same conclusion: Martindale was just giving lip service to Geer until he could get a handle on which way the wind was blowing. I think he took the whole thing, not as a "realignment" of the direction of the ministry, but more of a direct attack on his own perverted actions, from the "Athlete's" fiasco on. Geer was short on details, at least in this setting: you have to believe that things discussed in the previous days contained info that wasn't for public consumption, and that was more than he could take.
What is tragic is that the people that were brought in as witnesses, like Art Poling, who were participants in hearing the garbage presented, were then thoroughly trashed. Well, if there were people around for your public flogging, then when the opportunity to throw them out and then destroy their character or standing with God became available, wouldn't you take it?
Bally's can have him.
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Raf
LAE,
I say this unequivocally:
Anyone who stayed after 1989 got fooled. I'm not rubbing it in their faces. (Perhaps you are not aware that Oldies and I have disagreed on this publicly for several years now. Nothing I say on the subject surprises him; nothing he says on the subject surprises me).
There's nothing snide or arrogant in what I said. Sorry you took it that way. LCM cleverly masked an egotistical power grab as a reasonable request.
Now, I do acknowledge that many who left got fooled, too. Not knowing Chris Geer, it took me longer to see what a doctrinal problem he was. And it wasn't until many years later that I knew his role in TWI pre-POP. Thing was, by that point my closest friends and I were so adamant about not following men that we didn't follow Chris Geer off the doctrinal deep end. That's a separate issue, one I'll be happy to address.
But it doesn't change the fact that LCM snookered everyone, and Chris Geer snookered lots of people too. The difference is, many who left with CG were better off because we had a little practice at distancing ourselves from a would be MOG. When it came time to shake CG off our sandals, it was a piece of cake by then.
What we all should have done was left any vestige of TWI and TWGB (Geer) in the rear view mirror.
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GrouchoMarxJr
"Bally's can have him."
I suppose one of the big attractions for me personally, when I first got involved with twi (1975), was the fact that Wierwille had an open door policy..."There's no strangers at the Way"...People came and went as they pleased. My first roa was more like a rock concert...You didn't have to sign any loyalty oaths, in fact one of Wierwille's favorite sayings was that "the Way has no members, that way nobody can be kicked out"...followed by a hearty laugh.
project 12 years into the future...
Vic the grifter is dead and king okie has been on his throne for about two years. Most of the young people who were at my first roa, are now corps grads...everything is strict...legalism became the order of the day. The entire complexion of twi had changed...
...And then the era of pop and the Scheinheit controversy, and the mass firings began...it seemed CLEAR to me that Martindale had gone out of his frickin' mind and was leading twi down the tubes...this was 1987
When Raf says that anyone who stayed after 1989 got fooled, he's making an understatement. I don't want to insult anyone who DID stay after 1989 (everyone's situation was different)...but if I were to put it in "wayspeak"...A "spirit of delusion" had swept into the waytree, from the top down...and was pruning it like Edward Scissorhands.
Many folks felt betrayed, hurt and confused...I don't blame people who splintered off into groups, following whoever...as for myself, I went my own way alone...I'd had enough.
...And my earliest memories of Martindale in 1975 was that he was a raving maniac then with an ego the size of Texas.
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doojable
Now, now - let's not get texas into this! LCM was Oklahoma's mistake.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I stand corrected. I should have said an ego the size of Oklahoma...
...or maybe I should have said...a forehead the size of Oklahoma...
...
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excathedra
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justloafing
Can we leave foreheads out of this? :unsure:
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Zshot
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oldiesman
Hi Linda, thanks for your input.
If you say Craig was a control freak in the 80's, I'm not going to argue with you, you were there.
My viewpoint comes from being out on the field in NY where I wasn't exposed to his daily behavior, mannerisms, words, etc., ... coupled with getting information (or lack thereof) from folks who stood with the Sultan of Aloofness.
So therefore, I retract my statement "He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but".
As for the rest of my opinion in that paragraph/post, I think it's accurate.
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Raf
It's accurate to your perception, Oldies. Not to the reality of what was going on behind the scenes. (My impression was also inaccurate as to what was going on behind the scenes, as I did not know CG was what he apparently was. I always thought he was a good, if dull, teacher).
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oldiesman
Right on, Oakspear! Yea Oakspear...yea Oakspear...
Here is an excerpt from Craig's Loyalty Letter I of March, 1989:
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rascal
and the letter that he sent to us said we had to make up our minds...whether to stand with him and the ministry that taught us God`s word.....and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap.....
To simply publishing a small parcel of one of THREE letters ....the one written to staff.....does not make any point....nor shed an accurate light on the oath itself being required of those out on the field who were not salaried employees or in a position of responsibility.....
We were required to write an oath of loyalty to lcm.....who DIDN`T give the recipients of the third letter any room to wiggle.
If one refused to write an oath of allegiance to lcm...you were then sent a horrible letter....your corpes status removed.....he was so childish....it was the only thing that he could think of to hurt us.......like a thwarted bully....he was gonna mess us up any way he could.
Lets see.... swear an oath of allegiance to someone who called standing with God *crap*
Might have been a little tougher had we not seen personally him go half cocked and act on completely false information.....not bothering to make a small efort to aprise himself of the truth......nor bothering to apologise when he was proven wrong.
He reminds me of a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.....lying flat on his back.....fists and heals drumming on the floor....howling his frustration.....and while acceptable on a two year old...it ISN`T pretty on a grown mog.......Geeze what a goon.
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oldiesman
I still disagree with you.
I still believe that the decision to stand with Craig, in the movement of the Word, was the right one for that day and time.
The Word was still being preached to the extent it was being preach when VP was around, .. all the programs were still in place. All the possibilities for folks who wanted to hear the Word we had heard and approved of for so long was there ... the human "potential" was there to keep on preaching, keep on moving the Word.
Here is an excerpt from Craig's letter:
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oldiesman
Sorry for the derailment.
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Zshot
lcm's letter had all the right "buzz words" for all those who wished to follow him. And, it did not satify concerns of those who had questions concerning lcm and the direction he was moving twi in.
By the time the letter was issused... Many people were forming opinions concerning lcm and twi. The letter helped those who were making up there mind of which way things were going.
Many good people were fooled by lcm's letter and continued to follow lcm. History has proved this.
Today, we have the luxury of knowing what was going on at the time. With the knowledge of things past, we know that leaving twi was the best thing to do and staying was a mistake.
The biggest clue that staying was a mistake after the letter was... How twi treated and talked about the people who had left. It should have been clear that "the love of God" had left twi.
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Raf
And Mussolini made the trains run on time, but as has already been established, Craig was already off his rocker by this point. The fact that he succeeded in keeping it from you was admirable on his part. But his descent had already begun. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't true. Lots of things you don't see are true.
What Oldiesman is saying is tantamount to saying that after Titanic hit the iceberg, the smart thing to do was stay on board until things got REALLY bad.
No. The smart thing to do would have been to get into a lifeboat forthwith.
Unfortunately, many of us got into lifeboats that had leaks in them, while others just jumped into the water. But we survived, and we weren't on the Titanic as it sank. History proved us right.
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oldiesman
I am not responding because I do not wish to derail this any further.
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