After CG read POP at Corps Week 86, once we were all home he sent the USA Corps a scathing tape warning us all that we needed spiritual boot camp because we were all so totally screwed up.
I've really listened hard to all the anti-CG stuff here. I'm so glad I left TWI when I did, so I have a hard time coming to terms with some of the uglier things that have been spoken about him. And I have a hard time thinking that people who followed him out the door (as most of NY did) had anything other than pure motives. Fortunately, I can see very clearly that most of the people I know who left during the Geer expulsion are disconnected from him now, so whether or not leaders' motives were pure, a good chunk of us "followers" learned the lesson of not accepting bunk from leadership just because of their position.
Incidentally, I'm not saying I don't believe the uglier things said about Geer. I just have a hard time with it because my memory of him was so positive most of the time.
So I guess my question is, What was the BOT doing to CG that pi**ed him off so much that he initiated the POP letter so long after VPW's death?
Maybe I answered my own question. Reading over the "What's Chr** doing now" thread, it seems like there was a lot of wrangling over the making of a new foundational class. Perhaps CG was po'ed that he wasn't allowed to keep the money he was raking in on PFAL.
I'm speculating here, but I'm thinking that his march on Headquarters was designed to get the BOT to loosen the purse strings, and let more money stay in Gartmore. (And remember how much of the POP was devoted to how hard they were working on the Gartmore property?) So instead of saying, "Give me more money," Chris told them in the POP how they were all off the Word (meaning FINANCIALLY off), and how VPW loved what CG was doing, and would have supported his efforts more, except the mean BOT wouldn't listen to him anymore.
That's too rational an analysis. I think Geer and many of those who said those High and Mighty pronouncements really believed them at some level. We were, after all emotionally caught up in this thing and many of us/them had serious emotional problems. Tha't why so many of the "pronouncements' of leadership seemed so contratdictory, or why leaders would allow or even encourage actions that went against their stated desire to "move the word" or even build the empire.
The problem with trying to sort all of this stuff out and make sense of it, is that these people were working from a perspective that is fatally flawed from the get go...
...In order to accept anything that Geer had to say, one must start off with the premise that Wierwille WAS this spiritual giant with great insight and that the "word" that he taught was the real deal...
...It's sort of like visiting a mental institution and trying to make sense out of what the guy (who thinks he is Napoleon) is saying to you. If you accept the premise that he actually IS Napoleon, then you might follow along and agree with him...but if you see him for the crackpot that he is...it makes no sense and he becomes pitiful.
The entire framework of twi thinking was based on being part of their fantasy world. It was a world that was built on the foundations of ego and fueled by self interest and lust. In other words, if you believed the fable of the "snow on the gas pumps", they could twist and shape your mind to conform to their insanity....their pretend world that placed THEM at the center of importance.
Why not read a Green Lantern comic book and then spend the rest of your life trying to find the elusive power ring?
It's important because you see what THEY believed and what THEY considered important and what THEY had for emotional responses. When you're trying to reconstruct what happened, it's not so important whether the contents of what he was presenting were factual or not, it's important to see what was presented and what happened.
Fact is that he presented some information. Whether or not that information was factual, non-factual but presented in sincerity {i.e., Geer believed it to be correct even though it wasn't}, or intentionally deceptive {Geer presented it as fact while knowing it was false} is not, in retrospect, as important as seeing the reactions to what was presented and what eventually happened because of it. Don't get me wrong: there is some importance to know if it was a power play or if it was simply a delusion but the bottom line is that these events were critical in the eventual implosion that freed the vast majority of people from TWI.
As you correctly point out, we are likely dealing with a bunch of psychotics here...but seeing how the events all string together is critical.
On a personal note, the final straw that broke the camel's back with me and TWI was the 'loyalty letter' put out in '89. Seeing the events that caused LCM's paranoia to blossom so much that he'd do something idiotic like publishing that letter is very satisfying to me. And if something Geer did helped push him over the edge into his fog of insanity that resulted in sending that letter out...I can't now look back and not be at least a little thankful for whatever caused him to do that. I say this because no matter how insane LCM was, in retrospect his publication of that letter turned out to be one of the best events to ever impact my life, because had that letter not ever been published, it's possible that I might have not gotten out when I did and would have endured a whole lot during the '90s like so many here have.
Mark...Sure, I understand what you're saying...Considering the amount of time, effort, finances and heart that most of us poured into this thing, it's good to unravel the facts for the sake of understanding.
Martindale's mandate for the loyalty letter was most revealing...hundreds upon hundreds of folks saw the handwriting on the wall and acted accordingly. The further off the deep end that he went, the more obvious it became that it was time to leave...
...One of the positive results of being so involved with the insanity of twi, was that so many good folks finally started thinking for themselves...started making some sound decisions and woke up from their cult slumber.
but seeing how the events all string together is critical.
here's how i see it. one nutjob outed another nutjob and finally a lot of us said, wow they're all nutjobs
once the big nutjob kicked the bucket it was all over, for me, personally
maybe i grew up or maybe the spell was broken. i don't know but i'm glad
well that's not true exactly. i hung on for a while until geer went off and then i tried to talk to martindale and that was a waste of time.... again i'm just glad it happened
In hind sight, it almost appears as if it was nothing more than something as juvenile as a ....ing match.
I agree with MarkO about it being a catalyst to show the insanity....and not just the letter...but one single LINE of that letter.....*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*
That single unfortunate phrase was what finally awoke many of us....and we would have put up with almost anything in order to fight for the ministry......
Excathedra, I agree it was one nut job that outed another.....the big nut job was the only one that was clever enough to keep us all placated so that we could continued to slumber blythly unaware .......
It would have taken so very little to have kept us committed sold out douloses.... you had to practically drive us away with a stick.
Well that was because when Craig was asking his employees and others to stand with and support him, a lot of the ones who didn't want to stand with him, said "I stand with God".
So Craig said, "don't give me any of that standing with God crap."
It was really a bogus excuse. You are standing with God? Fine...let God mail you your paycheck!
Fact is, we were all, all of us, standing with some man, be it Craig, Chris, John, Vince or whoever.
"don't give me any of that standing with God crap"...
...Leave it to oldies to defend a statement like that.
oldies goes on to say "Fact is, we were all, all of us, standing with some man..."
Oh really now? Perhaps you should speak for yourself.
In my involvement with twi, my allegience was always to God...not to ANY man. I was always mindful of the fact that I would disassociate myself with ANY man, woman, or ministry that walked away from God. To pledge blind allegience to a man (as Martindale demanded), was not only unbiblical but also damned stupid. Therein lies the difference between a genuine Christian minister and an ego filled counterfeit. The failure to understand this very basic concept demonstrates the lack of a personal relationship with God and a personal committment to the truth.
Sorry oldies, you struck out again.
PS...I NEVER received a paycheck from twi...I helped supply their paycheck.
You know, when it comes to plagiarism, I hear you guys saying that we should not be accepting the world's standard and we should allow God's Word to prevail blah blah blah. But suddenly the world's standard is wholly appropriate when a control freak demands your loyalty. Which is it?
Lots of people recognized that LCM was not truly asking people to stand with him, but to stand UNDER him. Those people were fired. And those who were not in a position to BE fired left gladly.
At that point in history, Craig hadn't manifested the evil of later years.
And the vagueness of the information out there was a factor too.
He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but.
Things were fine for awhile after the letter, but got worse from 1993 and beyond.
And you know the rest of the story...
LCM asked the question 'who do you stand with?', if the answer was anything than with him...
At that point in time it was very clear that LCM did not stand for/with God, Jesus Christ or the Bible.
I am wondering if LCM changed the lyrics to the song, "I'm standing on the w-o-r-d..." to reflect the LOYality that we were supposed to show to him ?
twi was supposed to be ministery whose head was the Lord Jesus Christ. as it turned out the only head that vpw and lcm cared about was part of their lower anatomy.
OM you said, "He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but." My impression of lcm (based on teaching tapes, and a the few times I saw him teach live), he was an egotistical @$$h0LE. You say he wasn't always evil, was there a time when he wasn't a jerk?
At that point in history, Craig hadn't manifested the evil of later years.
And the vagueness of the information out there was a factor too.
He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but.
Things were fine for awhile after the letter, but got worse from 1993 and beyond.
And you know the rest of the story...
To which I must respond: BS!
I don't recall your being on HQ staff in the mid-80s, Oldies. I was. Craig was already screaming and accusing and demanding and screwing around at that point in history. In fact, he was doing so before POP was even read to Corps and Staff in '86. He was already advocating things that were contrary to the Word of God and treating people like crap. He had lost any sort of loyalty I might have felt toward him as a twi leader before CG ever accused him of a thing, because of his behavior.
And this is one thing about VPW that really puzzled me at the time and later pi$$ed me off when I was seeing the situation more clearly--his uncanny ability to put a$$ kissers in positions of authority over God's precious people who had no business being there.
What was wrong with LCM I woudln't necessarily characterize as "evil'; rather, he was just one more example of someone pushed upward through the ranks of twi because of personality or money or influence too fast for his own (and everyone else's) good.
I don't usually argue with you out of respect for your sisters, whom I love, and because it's like arguing with a granite boulder--waste of time and effort. But this time you struck a nerve by speaking so "authoritatively" about something you weren't there to see with your own eyes.
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After CG read POP at Corps Week 86, once we were all home he sent the USA Corps a scathing tape warning us all that we needed spiritual boot camp because we were all so totally screwed up.
I have that tape somewhere.
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Raf
I've really listened hard to all the anti-CG stuff here. I'm so glad I left TWI when I did, so I have a hard time coming to terms with some of the uglier things that have been spoken about him. And I have a hard time thinking that people who followed him out the door (as most of NY did) had anything other than pure motives. Fortunately, I can see very clearly that most of the people I know who left during the Geer expulsion are disconnected from him now, so whether or not leaders' motives were pure, a good chunk of us "followers" learned the lesson of not accepting bunk from leadership just because of their position.
Incidentally, I'm not saying I don't believe the uglier things said about Geer. I just have a hard time with it because my memory of him was so positive most of the time.
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WordWolf
A) No, it didn't "have to".
B) You can't turn away from something you never had.
False Premise.
twi was NOT build primarily on what twi always CLAIMED twi was about.
As you can see from this quote,
the "centrality and authority of God's Word"
always meant less than "our Father in the Word"
at hq-which means that's how it was taught.
Some people are STILL like that.
If they weren't, vpw would be a footnote to them,
a tool for a job,
rather than a revered figure who did little wrong (to THEM).
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WordWolf
[More than one opinion, the horror....]
[A) Some of his teachings-like the "law" of believing-are wrong
B) his counsel was questionable at best.
He was a bad husband, but gave marriage advice unsolicited.
C) "focusing on his personality".
Actually, vpw started that.
Besides, his "carnality" may well be a human thing,
but his EAGERNESS to satisfy the lusts of the flesh
was INAPPROPRIATE and DISGRACEFUL in a minister of God.
If Jeffrey Dahmer had surived jail and gotten born again,
and wanted to address twi,
they'd hurry to judge him on his "carnality", of course.]
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shazdancer
:D :D
Shaz
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My3Cents
That's too rational an analysis. I think Geer and many of those who said those High and Mighty pronouncements really believed them at some level. We were, after all emotionally caught up in this thing and many of us/them had serious emotional problems. Tha't why so many of the "pronouncements' of leadership seemed so contratdictory, or why leaders would allow or even encourage actions that went against their stated desire to "move the word" or even build the empire.
Just my 2 cents and one for inflation.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The problem with trying to sort all of this stuff out and make sense of it, is that these people were working from a perspective that is fatally flawed from the get go...
...In order to accept anything that Geer had to say, one must start off with the premise that Wierwille WAS this spiritual giant with great insight and that the "word" that he taught was the real deal...
...It's sort of like visiting a mental institution and trying to make sense out of what the guy (who thinks he is Napoleon) is saying to you. If you accept the premise that he actually IS Napoleon, then you might follow along and agree with him...but if you see him for the crackpot that he is...it makes no sense and he becomes pitiful.
The entire framework of twi thinking was based on being part of their fantasy world. It was a world that was built on the foundations of ego and fueled by self interest and lust. In other words, if you believed the fable of the "snow on the gas pumps", they could twist and shape your mind to conform to their insanity....their pretend world that placed THEM at the center of importance.
Why not read a Green Lantern comic book and then spend the rest of your life trying to find the elusive power ring?
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markomalley
Groucho,
It's important because you see what THEY believed and what THEY considered important and what THEY had for emotional responses. When you're trying to reconstruct what happened, it's not so important whether the contents of what he was presenting were factual or not, it's important to see what was presented and what happened.
Fact is that he presented some information. Whether or not that information was factual, non-factual but presented in sincerity {i.e., Geer believed it to be correct even though it wasn't}, or intentionally deceptive {Geer presented it as fact while knowing it was false} is not, in retrospect, as important as seeing the reactions to what was presented and what eventually happened because of it. Don't get me wrong: there is some importance to know if it was a power play or if it was simply a delusion but the bottom line is that these events were critical in the eventual implosion that freed the vast majority of people from TWI.
As you correctly point out, we are likely dealing with a bunch of psychotics here...but seeing how the events all string together is critical.
On a personal note, the final straw that broke the camel's back with me and TWI was the 'loyalty letter' put out in '89. Seeing the events that caused LCM's paranoia to blossom so much that he'd do something idiotic like publishing that letter is very satisfying to me. And if something Geer did helped push him over the edge into his fog of insanity that resulted in sending that letter out...I can't now look back and not be at least a little thankful for whatever caused him to do that. I say this because no matter how insane LCM was, in retrospect his publication of that letter turned out to be one of the best events to ever impact my life, because had that letter not ever been published, it's possible that I might have not gotten out when I did and would have endured a whole lot during the '90s like so many here have.
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johniam
quote: And remember how much of the POP was devoted to how hard they were working on the Gartmore property?)
That was to reprove HQ "country club" atmosphere.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mark...Sure, I understand what you're saying...Considering the amount of time, effort, finances and heart that most of us poured into this thing, it's good to unravel the facts for the sake of understanding.
Martindale's mandate for the loyalty letter was most revealing...hundreds upon hundreds of folks saw the handwriting on the wall and acted accordingly. The further off the deep end that he went, the more obvious it became that it was time to leave...
...One of the positive results of being so involved with the insanity of twi, was that so many good folks finally started thinking for themselves...started making some sound decisions and woke up from their cult slumber.
Amen and Amen
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excathedra
once the big nutjob kicked the bucket it was all over, for me, personally
maybe i grew up or maybe the spell was broken. i don't know but i'm glad
well that's not true exactly. i hung on for a while until geer went off and then i tried to talk to martindale and that was a waste of time.... again i'm just glad it happened
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rascal
In hind sight, it almost appears as if it was nothing more than something as juvenile as a ....ing match.
I agree with MarkO about it being a catalyst to show the insanity....and not just the letter...but one single LINE of that letter.....*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*
That single unfortunate phrase was what finally awoke many of us....and we would have put up with almost anything in order to fight for the ministry......
Excathedra, I agree it was one nut job that outed another.....the big nut job was the only one that was clever enough to keep us all placated so that we could continued to slumber blythly unaware .......
It would have taken so very little to have kept us committed sold out douloses.... you had to practically drive us away with a stick.
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excathedra
you're so funny rascal
**
yeah that's wild, don't give me any of that standing with god crap. ha i didn't know he could be so honest
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Sunesis
Very nice analysis excie! - Excellent. LOL!
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oldiesman
Well that was because when Craig was asking his employees and others to stand with and support him, a lot of the ones who didn't want to stand with him, said "I stand with God".
So Craig said, "don't give me any of that standing with God crap."
It was really a bogus excuse. You are standing with God? Fine...let God mail you your paycheck!
Fact is, we were all, all of us, standing with some man, be it Craig, Chris, John, Vince or whoever.
So Craig's statement made sense, to me.
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GrouchoMarxJr
"don't give me any of that standing with God crap"...
...Leave it to oldies to defend a statement like that.
oldies goes on to say "Fact is, we were all, all of us, standing with some man..."
Oh really now? Perhaps you should speak for yourself.
In my involvement with twi, my allegience was always to God...not to ANY man. I was always mindful of the fact that I would disassociate myself with ANY man, woman, or ministry that walked away from God. To pledge blind allegience to a man (as Martindale demanded), was not only unbiblical but also damned stupid. Therein lies the difference between a genuine Christian minister and an ego filled counterfeit. The failure to understand this very basic concept demonstrates the lack of a personal relationship with God and a personal committment to the truth.
Sorry oldies, you struck out again.
PS...I NEVER received a paycheck from twi...I helped supply their paycheck.
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oldiesman
It is not unbiblical unethical or stupid for an employer to ask for loyalty from his employees.
In fact it is downright proper.
I can just imagine if my boss asked for my loyalty, and I respond, "no, I stand with God".
Golly, no wonder why folks got sacked forthwith...
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Raf
You know, when it comes to plagiarism, I hear you guys saying that we should not be accepting the world's standard and we should allow God's Word to prevail blah blah blah. But suddenly the world's standard is wholly appropriate when a control freak demands your loyalty. Which is it?
Lots of people recognized that LCM was not truly asking people to stand with him, but to stand UNDER him. Those people were fired. And those who were not in a position to BE fired left gladly.
And history proved us right. :)
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oldiesman
I disagree.
At that point in history, Craig hadn't manifested the evil of later years.
And the vagueness of the information out there was a factor too.
He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but.
Things were fine for awhile after the letter, but got worse from 1993 and beyond.
And you know the rest of the story...
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Raf
On the contrary, he was manifesting it right then and there.
I understand. That's why you got fooled. Some of us didn't.He was at the beginning of his control-freak peak. Those who left never got to see it firsthand, praise God.
And Mussolini made the trains run on time. But he was still a freak who needed to be brought down, as was LCM.Your start date is off by a few years.
But sadly, you still don't.
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oldiesman
Oh well, we just disagree.
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Raf
But it's fun.
Coffee?
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Zshot
LCM asked the question 'who do you stand with?', if the answer was anything than with him...
At that point in time it was very clear that LCM did not stand for/with God, Jesus Christ or the Bible.
I am wondering if LCM changed the lyrics to the song, "I'm standing on the w-o-r-d..." to reflect the LOYality that we were supposed to show to him
?
twi was supposed to be ministery whose head was the Lord Jesus Christ. as it turned out the only head that vpw and lcm cared about was part of their lower anatomy.
OM you said, "He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but." My impression of lcm (based on teaching tapes, and a the few times I saw him teach live), he was an egotistical @$$h0LE. You say he wasn't always evil, was there a time when he wasn't a jerk?
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Linda Z
Oldies said:
To which I must respond: BS!
I don't recall your being on HQ staff in the mid-80s, Oldies. I was. Craig was already screaming and accusing and demanding and screwing around at that point in history. In fact, he was doing so before POP was even read to Corps and Staff in '86. He was already advocating things that were contrary to the Word of God and treating people like crap. He had lost any sort of loyalty I might have felt toward him as a twi leader before CG ever accused him of a thing, because of his behavior.
And this is one thing about VPW that really puzzled me at the time and later pi$$ed me off when I was seeing the situation more clearly--his uncanny ability to put a$$ kissers in positions of authority over God's precious people who had no business being there.
What was wrong with LCM I woudln't necessarily characterize as "evil'; rather, he was just one more example of someone pushed upward through the ranks of twi because of personality or money or influence too fast for his own (and everyone else's) good.
I don't usually argue with you out of respect for your sisters, whom I love, and because it's like arguing with a granite boulder--waste of time and effort. But this time you struck a nerve by speaking so "authoritatively" about something you weren't there to see with your own eyes.
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