Bottom line was that twi was nothing more than another version of Amway with bible verses thrown in...
Let's give the devil his due...Wierwille was a slick salesman. He not only had the personality to draw people in but he also set up a pretty snazzy recruitment organization...
First it started with pfal, then the roa, then go out wow and finally, you're ready to go into the corps...
EVERYTHING that twi did was about shaking people down for their money...and like an animal that eats it's own young, twi not only recruited people into their cult but also turned them into a free workforce. Exploitation was their forte and bait and switch was their tactic.
Groucho is right!
When I was an apprentice corpse, we were always sent on witnessing assignments and were told we had to sign up at least one person for da class or we couldn't go in residence.
Well, it was getting late in the year and I hadn't signed anyone up. I really didn't want to fail, I thought desperate times called for desperate measures. I'm ashamed to admit this but I went to a bar, found a not too attractive woman and asked her to dance, then started taking her out. In case your wondering I didn't sleep with her, but she was infatuated enough with me that a few weeks later she signed up for the class.
Shame on you for judging folks negatively who, wanting to move the Word and bless folks, have them come to a greater knowledge of God and the bible than before, fellowshipping, dedicating some of their lives to that calling, etc.
I didn't spend two years of my life out WOW, and 17 years in twi, only to hear insults and false accusations that I was involved in exploitation and shaking people down for money.
If you guys want to speak of your experiences, go right ahead, but speak for yourself.
Shame on you for judging folks negatively who, wanting to move the Word and bless folks, have them come to a greater knowledge of God and the bible than before, fellowshipping, dedicating some of their lives to that calling, etc.
[shame on you for distorting what I said.
I never impugned the MOTIVES of the candidates,
nor did Groucho.
Shame on you for CONTINUING to distort what I said
after I spelled out how you DISTORTED it AGAIN.
Shame on you for taking attention off the ones who
DID such things-running the programs-
and slapping such a label on their well-meaning
victims-the candidates.]
I didn't spend two years of my life out WOW, and 17 years in twi, only to hear insults and false accusations that I was involved in exploitation and shaking people down for money.
BINGO.
THERE we have it.
THERE's the reason for the complete distortion of what was said.
Oldies spent time in the wow program,
Oldies spent time in twi,
and was unwittingly engaged in their programs of
deceit, MLM and money-grubbing.
Oldies never MEANT to do anything other than glorify God,
but twi deceived him and he ended up doing something else.
Rather than blame THEM for their deceit,
and living wiser and warier,
Oldies refuses to admit there was ever any problem-
which means Oldies NEVER did anything less than pristine.
Bravo, Oldies! You've succeeded in keeping white gloves
spotless while blood spattered on the others....]
If you guys want to speak of your experiences, go right ahead, but speak for yourself.
*snort*
[And yet,
when we DO speak of what we've seen, and discussed same,
When you make statements like "everything twi did was for the money or something to get the money", you are impugning the motives of twi participants.
You are insulting folks who were involved for years and years, who may not share your distorted, corrupted, unrelenting finger-pointing view of what twi and participants supposedly did.
It is hard to come to grips with being decieved for so many years.
It is much easier to pretend that all was well in twi and see ourselves as heroes...rather than feel foolish for being duped.
It was much easier staying in denial, but I eventually had to stop pretending. I still agree with most of what twi taught, but there were enough doctrinal/practical issues I have believed and taught that were not accurate. It was a very humbling day when I realized I had been deceived/mislead and that I had deceived and mislead others. The fact I helped ensnare others into twi even though I had good intentions was a very painful one and hard to come to terms with. And yes I did/do feel foolish about it too :blink:
In my opinion & in all likelihood we {ex-twi} were neither naïve or foolish, but just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time with a transient vulnerability.
When we hear of cults, scams, and individuals' being controlled and influenced by others, we instinctively try to separate ourselves from these persons. It seems a point of valor and self-esteem to insist that "no one could get me to do such things" when hearing about situations of intense influence. Just as most soldiers believe bullets will hit only others, most people tend to believe that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable, contributing to the 'Not me" myth.
People like to think that their opinions, values, and ideas are inviolate and totally self-regulated. They may grudgingly admit that they're influenced by advertising. Beyond that, however, people want to preserve the comfortable myth that only other people are weak-minded and easily influenced while they are strong-minded. Even though we all now know that human minds are open to influence – whether or not that is a comfortable consideration – most of us defensively feel that we could never be scammed, even by master exploitative manipulators such as vpw & lcm.
There is an almost universal aversion to accepting the idea that we ourselves are vulnerable to covert coercive packaged persuasion.
So my opinion is that we were all scammed by the cultic manipulative influence techniques of TWI's unethical compliance professionals, vpw & lcm. Hopefully we will no longer blame ourselves and feel foolish or naive.
Wordwolf, that is your distorted, corrupted, one-sided, evil-surmising, tunnel vision view of things that I do not share with you.
I guess you really must think you are God, the Searcher of all hearts?
They were tricked into thinking he had a special
connection with God and that all that was HIS work
when it wasn't. So, they recruited people into his organization.
Balderdash.
Whether or not VP had a special connection with God, VP told us that his stuff was not original, so you are just blowing smoke again.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe folks like Heefner and Doop and so many others who recruited folks into twi, did it not because of VP's perceived special connection with God, or because they thought VP was so great, or even because of VP AT ALL; but because they honestly wanted folks to be blessed and come to a greater knowledge of the truth, just like they had?
Lots of ex-twi folks bear witness to the fact that they learned many truths in twi, and wanted to share them.
Nothing wrong with that...
WordWolf:
Then you ARE insulting OM and his family. ;)
It is an insult to the entire family of God, who wanted to move the Word over the world and bless folks with the word of God, whether they were on the BOT, or a leaf on the tree.
I'm not insulted. I'm ashamed that I was ever part of that outfit and ashamed that I recruited people and encouraged others to get involved and to get abused, but insulted? Nah.
But then again I didn't commit some of the more awful atrocities or ruin lives by my actions. I suppose if I had, or if my family members did, I would be desperate to justify myself.
“…You consistently blame others for decisions that *you* freely made…”
No one, OM, not even you, freely made decisions after having been exposed to TWI’s strategically coordinated programs of non-consented covert packaged persuasion. You may have the perception of freely made decisions, but in fact this is a strategic, TWI-induced misperception, predominantly of the implicit rather than the explicit type.
Once a person has been subjected to having their general reality orientation destabilized, & subsequently experienced TWI’s thought reform, a distinction regarding any person has to be between: I & “I;” you & “you;” he or she & “he or she;” me & “me,” etc.
For those poor souls with a ‘good take’ Post thought reform, TWI has unethically altered the person’s mind such that they are no longer their true historical self, but rather a TWI-induced pseudo-self & pseudo-identity. No person operating from the vantage point of a cult-induced pseudo-self is freely making decisions. Essentially everything is perceived through the false cultic filter.
Once exiting TWI, as many of us here can attest, it takes years to be rid of the major vestiges of TWI’s thought reform. We ex-twi will probably never be able to rid ourselves totally of the detrimental effects of TWI’s rape of the mind.
No one, OM, not even you, freely made decisions after having been exposed to TWI’s strategically coordinated programs of non-consented covert packaged persuasion.
OM, do not confuse bogus 'VMP' with very real BTV {Blaming The Victim}. Perhaps you have been drinking the elixir of aloofness of the insensitive pro-cult apologists?
Two well-known social phenomena – blaming the victim & the just world concept – have been studied by social psychologists who have traced their origins to primitive times.
Blaming victims is an almost universal response to misfortune happening to others. In our society there is a strong taboo on being victimized through scams, influence, and deceptions. Attempts to break this irrational taboo tends to make the cult victim even more scorned.
When someone goes into a cult, the tendency for society is to say that there must be something wrong with that person. There must be some personal defect, otherwise he or she would not have joined such a group. Since the general public continues to regard cult members as stupid, crazy, and weak-minded, the near-universal response is: “It’s his or her fault. He or she went out looking for what they got.”
The tendency to blame victims prevents both lay and professional persons from seeing that most individuals who become involved in cultic relationships are a type of victim insufficiently recognized and understood. The person is irrationally blamed for being a seeker, gullible, or mentally aberrant. However, the thought reform programs of the cult are overlooked in this dimwitted 'VMP' appraisal.
There are 5 classes of generally recognized victims: victims of violent crimes; victims of natural disasters and serious illnesses; victims of terrorists and kidnappers; victims of civil torts; &, a final class overlapping the fourth, victims of enforced dependency.
Victims of enforced dependency have been subjected to non-consented thought reform processes. In essence, a thought reform program is a behavioral reconstruction program, a coordinated program of systematic manipulation using both psychological and social techniques.
Basic to the just world concept is the widely held belief that if a person obeys the rules of society, nothing bad will happen to him or her. Rule-breakers, on the other hand, get punished. Punishment comes in the form of bad luck, disasters, illness, loss. Thus victims of any disaster, crime, illness, or misfortune automatically fall into this bogus category of supposedly blameworthy people. This primitive reasoning goes something like this: “ Since I feel protected from evil and misfortune if I obey the rules – because it is a just world – then I can separate myself from those who come to harm. They must have done something bad to have bad things happen to them.”
To which brand of superstitious tribal illogic are you ensconced, OM?
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Groucho is right!
When I was an apprentice corpse, we were always sent on witnessing assignments and were told we had to sign up at least one person for da class or we couldn't go in residence.
Well, it was getting late in the year and I hadn't signed anyone up. I really didn't want to fail, I thought desperate times called for desperate measures. I'm ashamed to admit this but I went to a bar, found a not too attractive woman and asked her to dance, then started taking her out. In case your wondering I didn't sleep with her, but she was infatuated enough with me that a few weeks later she signed up for the class.
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oldiesman
Speak for yourself Groucho.
You must think you are God Himself, knowing that folks got involved in twi to shake people down for money and exploit them?
Have you no shame, condemning folks you don't even know?
Your wholesale false accusations are disgusting, as usual.
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Oakspear
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WordWolf
Everything TWI did WAS for the money,
or something to GET the money.
(Unless it was for the horizontal-mambo for the mog,
or alcohol or tobacco for him.)
Exploitation has been demonstrated and explained.
The bait-and-switch was also demonstrated and explained.
He never said people got involved so they could shake people down.
(You're not reading "what is written".)
People joined with good intentions, and were indoctrinated
and trained to shake people down for money.
"Wholesale false accusations", right....
Don't you get tired of continually whitewashing the entire history
of twi when people are discussing personal experience?
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oldiesman
What I said to Groucho goes for you too Wordwolf.
Shame on you for judging folks negatively who, wanting to move the Word and bless folks, have them come to a greater knowledge of God and the bible than before, fellowshipping, dedicating some of their lives to that calling, etc.
I didn't spend two years of my life out WOW, and 17 years in twi, only to hear insults and false accusations that I was involved in exploitation and shaking people down for money.
If you guys want to speak of your experiences, go right ahead, but speak for yourself.
*snort*
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WordWolf
[And it's STILL wrong.]
[shame on you for distorting what I said.I never impugned the MOTIVES of the candidates,
nor did Groucho.
Shame on you for CONTINUING to distort what I said
after I spelled out how you DISTORTED it AGAIN.
Shame on you for taking attention off the ones who
DID such things-running the programs-
and slapping such a label on their well-meaning
victims-the candidates.]
BINGO.
THERE we have it.
THERE's the reason for the complete distortion of what was said.
Oldies spent time in the wow program,
Oldies spent time in twi,
and was unwittingly engaged in their programs of
deceit, MLM and money-grubbing.
Oldies never MEANT to do anything other than glorify God,
but twi deceived him and he ended up doing something else.
Rather than blame THEM for their deceit,
and living wiser and warier,
Oldies refuses to admit there was ever any problem-
which means Oldies NEVER did anything less than pristine.
Bravo, Oldies! You've succeeded in keeping white gloves
spotless while blood spattered on the others....]
[And yet,
when we DO speak of what we've seen, and discussed same,
Oldies CAN'T leave that ALONE....]
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oldiesman
When you make statements like "everything twi did was for the money or something to get the money", you are impugning the motives of twi participants.
You are insulting folks who were involved for years and years, who may not share your distorted, corrupted, unrelenting finger-pointing view of what twi and participants supposedly did.
Speak for yourself.
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rascal
It is hard to come to grips with being decieved for so many years.
It is much easier to pretend that all was well in twi and see ourselves as heroes...rather than feel foolish for being duped.
One has to ignore an awfull lot of pain and dismiss a lot of cruelty and suffering to subscribe to this point of view.
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Belle
No one wants to believe that they were used or taken advantage of. It's no fun realizing that and it's certainly no fun remember how bad it feels.
AND it's hard to come to grips with being a deciever for so many years, too. Willing or not - intentional or not.
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penguin
Amen rascal and belle! rascal said
It was much easier staying in denial, but I eventually had to stop pretending. I still agree with most of what twi taught, but there were enough doctrinal/practical issues I have believed and taught that were not accurate. It was a very humbling day when I realized I had been deceived/mislead and that I had deceived and mislead others. The fact I helped ensnare others into twi even though I had good intentions was a very painful one and hard to come to terms with.
And yes I did/do feel foolish about it too :blink:
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WordWolf
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jkboehme
In my opinion & in all likelihood we {ex-twi} were neither naïve or foolish, but just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time with a transient vulnerability.
When we hear of cults, scams, and individuals' being controlled and influenced by others, we instinctively try to separate ourselves from these persons. It seems a point of valor and self-esteem to insist that "no one could get me to do such things" when hearing about situations of intense influence. Just as most soldiers believe bullets will hit only others, most people tend to believe that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable, contributing to the 'Not me" myth.
People like to think that their opinions, values, and ideas are inviolate and totally self-regulated. They may grudgingly admit that they're influenced by advertising. Beyond that, however, people want to preserve the comfortable myth that only other people are weak-minded and easily influenced while they are strong-minded. Even though we all now know that human minds are open to influence – whether or not that is a comfortable consideration – most of us defensively feel that we could never be scammed, even by master exploitative manipulators such as vpw & lcm.
There is an almost universal aversion to accepting the idea that we ourselves are vulnerable to covert coercive packaged persuasion.
So my opinion is that we were all scammed by the cultic manipulative influence techniques of TWI's unethical compliance professionals, vpw & lcm. Hopefully we will no longer blame ourselves and feel foolish or naive.
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Belle
WordWolf:
Then you ARE insulting OM and his family. ;)
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, that is your distorted, corrupted, one-sided, evil-surmising, tunnel vision view of things that I do not share with you.
I guess you really must think you are God, the Searcher of all hearts?
Balderdash.
Whether or not VP had a special connection with God, VP told us that his stuff was not original, so you are just blowing smoke again.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe folks like Heefner and Doop and so many others who recruited folks into twi, did it not because of VP's perceived special connection with God, or because they thought VP was so great, or even because of VP AT ALL; but because they honestly wanted folks to be blessed and come to a greater knowledge of the truth, just like they had?
Lots of ex-twi folks bear witness to the fact that they learned many truths in twi, and wanted to share them.
Nothing wrong with that...
It is an insult to the entire family of God, who wanted to move the Word over the world and bless folks with the word of God, whether they were on the BOT, or a leaf on the tree.
It is a universal blanket insult to all of us.
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rascal
All of us? Speak for yourself oldies :D The insult was and is that God and scripture were used by twi as tools to manipulate our lives.
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Belle
I'm not insulted. I'm ashamed that I was ever part of that outfit and ashamed that I recruited people and encouraged others to get involved and to get abused, but insulted? Nah.
But then again I didn't commit some of the more awful atrocities or ruin lives by my actions. I suppose if I had, or if my family members did, I would be desperate to justify myself.
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oldiesman
Rascal, I do not accept your morbid, finger-pointing viewpoints.
You consistently blame others for decisions that *you* freely made.
Things happened because you were forced, or manipulated.
Whether taking PFAL,
or going WOW,
or going Corps,
or getting an abortion,
or staying in twi as long as you did, etc. etc.
It is always somebody's else's fault. <_<
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jkboehme
Per OM to rascal:
No one, OM, not even you, freely made decisions after having been exposed to TWI’s strategically coordinated programs of non-consented covert packaged persuasion. You may have the perception of freely made decisions, but in fact this is a strategic, TWI-induced misperception, predominantly of the implicit rather than the explicit type.
Once a person has been subjected to having their general reality orientation destabilized, & subsequently experienced TWI’s thought reform, a distinction regarding any person has to be between: I & “I;” you & “you;” he or she & “he or she;” me & “me,” etc.
For those poor souls with a ‘good take’ Post thought reform, TWI has unethically altered the person’s mind such that they are no longer their true historical self, but rather a TWI-induced pseudo-self & pseudo-identity. No person operating from the vantage point of a cult-induced pseudo-self is freely making decisions. Essentially everything is perceived through the false cultic filter.
Once exiting TWI, as many of us here can attest, it takes years to be rid of the major vestiges of TWI’s thought reform. We ex-twi will probably never be able to rid ourselves totally of the detrimental effects of TWI’s rape of the mind.
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rascal
I shouldn`t have EVER been forced to chose between God and the life of my baby.....
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oldiesman
Jkboehme, I do not accept your VMP.
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rascal
vmp?
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oldiesman
Victim Mentality Propaganda
The essence of JKboehme's whole concept.
You were/are a brainwashed, Helpless Victim.
You didn't make free-will decisions.
Everything you did in twi was due to covert packaged persuasion.
And the beat goes on...
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jkboehme
OM, do not confuse bogus 'VMP' with very real BTV {Blaming The Victim}. Perhaps you have been drinking the elixir of aloofness of the insensitive pro-cult apologists?
Two well-known social phenomena – blaming the victim & the just world concept – have been studied by social psychologists who have traced their origins to primitive times.
Blaming victims is an almost universal response to misfortune happening to others. In our society there is a strong taboo on being victimized through scams, influence, and deceptions. Attempts to break this irrational taboo tends to make the cult victim even more scorned.
When someone goes into a cult, the tendency for society is to say that there must be something wrong with that person. There must be some personal defect, otherwise he or she would not have joined such a group. Since the general public continues to regard cult members as stupid, crazy, and weak-minded, the near-universal response is: “It’s his or her fault. He or she went out looking for what they got.”
The tendency to blame victims prevents both lay and professional persons from seeing that most individuals who become involved in cultic relationships are a type of victim insufficiently recognized and understood. The person is irrationally blamed for being a seeker, gullible, or mentally aberrant. However, the thought reform programs of the cult are overlooked in this dimwitted 'VMP' appraisal.
There are 5 classes of generally recognized victims: victims of violent crimes; victims of natural disasters and serious illnesses; victims of terrorists and kidnappers; victims of civil torts; &, a final class overlapping the fourth, victims of enforced dependency.
Victims of enforced dependency have been subjected to non-consented thought reform processes. In essence, a thought reform program is a behavioral reconstruction program, a coordinated program of systematic manipulation using both psychological and social techniques.
Basic to the just world concept is the widely held belief that if a person obeys the rules of society, nothing bad will happen to him or her. Rule-breakers, on the other hand, get punished. Punishment comes in the form of bad luck, disasters, illness, loss. Thus victims of any disaster, crime, illness, or misfortune automatically fall into this bogus category of supposedly blameworthy people. This primitive reasoning goes something like this: “ Since I feel protected from evil and misfortune if I obey the rules – because it is a just world – then I can separate myself from those who come to harm. They must have done something bad to have bad things happen to them.”
To which brand of superstitious tribal illogic are you ensconced, OM?
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excathedra
victim mentality oldies ? you s uck
i mean your opinion s ucks
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