Beauty - that is a question!! Looks can change - are you really what you look like?? Different people can react according to what you look like - a good hair day, a bad hair day, flattering clothes, unflattering clothes, weight gain, etc. Pimples when young, lines when old. Men and boys REALLY react to a pretty or beautiful woman, and it can be surprising. Girls and women react to a good looking guy - and they can be surprised. However, males can be so much noisier!! And the impact can be deeper. For positive or negative. How different are boys and girls under 12?? They are different.. though all boys aren't exactly alike and all girls aren't exactly alike. At different times there have been different cultural expectations of what it means to be a man or a woman and different levels of getting people to "conform". Women historically have been more susceptible, however in the 90's it seems the tuff but good looking woman is the way to be - ala La Femme Nikita, lawyer shows with female lawyers, etc. Good health makes for good looks and good health is important. Excessive vanity is not important I don't think.
The time I straighten my hair , put on uncomfortable very spiky heels, wear red lipstick and a belt with a push up bra.. is very pretty as I go out ... once or twice a year and on xmas way to much effort I am tired by the time I get to the car door and need to drink alcohol for some reason..
but then I love my silk moo moo dress with the navy blue huge flowers and nothing eles and I feel soft and relaxed... or my cotton tee shirt that is 15 years old that is extra long very worn out has half length sleeves and cotton pants with bare feet.. I feel very pretty but look like a slob to the world...
But while it's clear that beauty and sexuality cross paths, they are not the same thing.
The truest form of beauty is that which encompasses body and soul. Hollywood has long recognized that plastic perfection is not as beautiful as reality. That's why Hollywood's biggest female stars, like male stars, are flawed. People respond to them because their beauty transcends the image they project.
Some of them might even be considered "homely" by ordinary standards, yet something radiates through.
ok for the deep lesson there QQ on the inner beauty and all
yet''I will tell ya I can look at a "hot guy and see his body and see his hair and eyes and the way he LOOKS only and indeed think this is Gods master piece !!
it is when they start talking that a problem comes in ...
Something weird is happening on this thread. Excathedra, I theen you may have some splaining to do. Just doing some detective work here. Really, nobody has any splaining to do and I don't CARE if it's none of my beeswax, I'm curious as to why....????....
21:32 Excathedra posts.
22:17 QQ posts.
22:17 Excathedra deletes most of previous post.
22:20 Ex realizes post had been read.
22:27 QQ deletes part of HIS post.
22:48 Ex posts again.
22:53 Laleo deletes entire long post that had been on for 8 1/2 hrs.
22:55 Ginger posts.
23:04 Ex deletes most of 22:48 post.
I was going to comment on part of Laleo's post, but now I don't know. This is weird.
My part isn't all that mysterious. I just felt like I wrote the wrong post for the wrong thread at the wrong time. It didn't quite flow with the confessional tone of the thread, and I thought it might be construed as being cold, or somehow unresponsive.
Side note: I think critics of the book The Beauty Myth have made a convincing case that Wolf distorted statistics to write a sensational account of a problem that may exist in some form, but was exploited in order to further her agenda. I was responding more to that than the larger topic of the emotional connections we make to our definitions of "beauty."
As I was working on editing my post, which was too long to begin with, I decided just to bag it instead, since it wasn't a pivotal post on this thread anyway. So that's why it's gone. I didn't mean to throw you off.
As far as commenting on the post, maybe another time on another thread. Okay?
laleo's post was very good. I hope some people got to read it.
I deleted very little of my own post - just the first line where I answered excathedra saying it was a good point. I kept the rest because it stood on its own, more or less.
I don't think laleo would mind if you commented, johniam, but she can speak for herself.
laleo, your post was (I thought) candid and even confessional in its own right. Sorry you thought it lacked something. I don't think so. Glad I read it a few times - before it was too late.
You said you didn't think this was a touchy subject, but I think johniam's observation points to the probability that it is. That isn't good or bad. It does reveal how much of our self-esteem is invested in our sense of beauty, even when we try to be objective about this supremely subjective perception.
I think anyone reading will consider what beauty means to them, and how they have pursued it, either as a male or a female in our respective roles.
Thank you for leaving your post as long as you did. It was worthwhile.
Thanks for the feedback; I thought I was gonna get flamed for that. I agree with QQ that Laleo's post was good and candid. I found nothing threatening or offensive about it.
When I first read this thread, I instantly thought of two beautiful monsters I created.
I am the mother of two very lovely girls. I say that of course, cuz I'm mom and I think my children are incredibly beautiful, but really they have been blessed with their fathers good looks. (and, lord help em, my wierdness).
However.....I have told my girls since the day each was born how beautiful they are, how wonderful they are, how welcome and wanted they were/are. What has become of my praise and compliments are two girls, one a young women and one a young girl, who truly believe that they are the most beautiful people that God ever saw fit to come up with. Oh crap! Yet, have I stopped mentioning their beauty to them? Nooooooooope :P--> My youngest, when complimented "you look very pretty" answers with "yes, I know it" WHOA! That was my first hint to feed this kid some other diet that included meekness and better manners and understanding of the simple, quiet words Thank You!
What I did start adding is the old saying that my grandmother told me a kazillion times "pretty is as pretty does". This is very true and applicable, and needed for any of us to understand. I see that in my girls, as they contribute to their community, help their fellow people and are very wonderful children for this thankful and lucky mother.
My youngest daughter is eight years old now and in the past months has started to change in her attitude, physical appearance and interests, which include not being able to pass a mirror and any shiny object, to look at herself. Now, I understand that's normal and I like that she is interested in looking her best and being happy with what she sees looking back. Her 21 year old sister is exactly the same and in fact feeds her young sibling the 'you are the most beautiful sister in the world' buffet.
Sigh
I just wonder, that's all. I have told them both there is nothing that is not wonderful about them. (ok, there are days when I wonder who these people are), but I think each sneeze is the cutest sneeze I've ever heard, and a ton of other ultra mushy stuff like that. I'm a blabbering idiot when it comes to my children and their inner and outer beauty. I just don't want them to take that out into a crusty and not so beautiful world and expect that their beauty will take em too far.
(well, duh, I know, I started it!) However, in my defense, I have never told them they are better than others, and they BETTER not treat people with disrespect or disregard. I just worry about their own self respect as they find out that their beauty is not the end all, be all in a brutal reality.
I was also reminded of one time when I needed a new Dryer. It was a sweats and no make up day as I wandered into the appliance store to shop. I waited. I looked at the products. I waited. I stood and watched THREE employees wandering around, serving other customer and I waited. I went home.
I wanted to do a little personal test.
I returned about an hour later clothed in a dress, make up on and hair fixed nicely. FOUR employees suddenly were wanting to sell me a dryer. I asked for the manager and explained what I had done. I bought my dryer at another store. But it taught me something valuable that I also found to be pathetic.
Shellon, it must come back to "finding a balance" between the value we place on esthetics and things that are more important.
We may see a woman's healthy confidence as part of her "beauty" but arrogance and vanity to detract from it. People may over-ride their first impression if the behavior does not match the outward appearance, for better or for worse.
Beauty is often like a see-saw. We see people as more or less beautiful than others. Men are constantly rating women they see (this behavior usually subsides if a friendship or other relationship exists). We're all familiar with the meaning of "ten."
And many women compare themselves to others. As laleo pointed out, it may be in the circumstance of direct competition, or there may be a more generalized sense of competition.
Shell, you also gave them the key to the stuff that makes for inner beauty.
Laleo, I also had the joy of reading your wonderful post before you deleted it, thank you.
QQ, just before I left twi I heard our BC telling a young set of parents not to tell their child she was good. It would lead to false security. This usage of good tied into the child?s self-image is why I bring it up here. Yet this leader neglected the substance of stuff her self-image needed. I think the advice of the BC was like my advising a nuclear physicist on how to do their job (by the way did you see Sci-Fi interview with Robert Lazar last night. Incredible...oops I really digressed there).
Anyway back to it again. My mom told me I was a pearl, never understood quite what that meant until later on in life and then understood she meant I was something precious born out of something ugly. Not meaning to go back to all that okay, but it is part of my upbringing. I do believe we impact our children?s ability to define beauty not only for themselves but also for those that will be a part of their lives.
I am redefining what beauty is in regards to myself. And some moments my Mom?s sweet voice calling me her pearl comes to mind and refreshes me like a gentle breeze. As well words said by others offer me courage to claim inner beauty as my own. We are not an island unto ourselves; I am of the opinion that we aid in building what people think of themselves. Better to start it early so our children can cope with the fickle views of society on what is beauty.
Haven't we all experienced infatuation - a "crush?" How does your perception of the object of your affection change, for male or female? Is it the same as "closing time" for men (when the women -who haven't already left with someone - all get so much prettier)?
I also agree with johniam about a woman's eyes. I have seen very attractive women with eyes that were empty somehow. Can't explain it, but everything else about them didn't seem to matter. And the reverse is true as well.
I'm not going to bother here, in any case...and that's because one really has to have an god understanding, socially, and culturally of beauty and women...and how 'beauty' affects women, say, enough to be an issue...who's going to recognize it here?
If you want to write about it...it's one thing to add a personal opinion or experience...but that's all that can be achieved here, I feel.
I see fights breaking out...lol...
A mouse trap ready to snap...lol...
Go figure?
What can I say, I've been around here too long...
This is my business and I wouldn't write about it here...maybe some married Dads with a few daughters need or have insights they can share...but trust me, this isn't the arena for BEAUTY...national or global...for sure.
I will say there is an excellent documentary made about 3 years ago ~ by National Geographic...someone I know too well was interviewed for it....it's all about BEAUTY,
the world over...hope you Guys find it...it's very factual and insightful.
Ummm...I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder...ultimately...aren't the eyes the window to the soul?
Beauty is perceived many ways ~
Ugliness is, as well.
Taking good care of ones self, with loving intentions, 'inside' and out...inspires, delights and attracts people for better reasons...then if one sees or looks at beauty only on the outside...that is something else entirely, yes?
Has other 'meaning' yes?
Since this is about women, I might take offense ~ since beauty is universal...beyong gender.
I thank all that's good for beautiful men.
And beautiful women.
Beautiful people.
A run-way model may be beautiful to look at...and also may have the inner beauty, the kind that time, others, and circumstances cannot destroy.
People assume 'beauties' like this must be shallow.
While some may be...it's unrealistic to 'label' all outer-beauty as made-up and false.
The beauty ~ the authentic beauty ~ won't be limited by labels, or stereo-typical responses...it's timeless and precious and cultivated.
What female beauty does to men...well...I see what it does in some M.E. cultures...in some other primitive tribal-ritualistic communities, even in some far eastern cultures...and to some here, in the U.S..
When female beauty..the outside...is on the table...more is being related then looks, see?
John,
I am saying something like you are implying...
To be a woman, and one who has had to deal with outer beauty issues since a child (working, getting the audition or not, etc.)
...I find that outer beauty ~ and the discussion to answer ???
...needs to be more specific or just plain old philosophical
...because there are numerous serious issues that are affecting young people today, girls~suffering unrealistic expectations and boys~having unrealistic needs,
including the deluded (distorted) body image problems, self-loathing, etc
...that many teens (and younger) are experiencing
...too much to say
...too many bases to cover here with such a generalization.
Of course, unless one doesn't take it seriously.
I'm not one of those.
So, I can contribute, yes, authentic beauty is a thing to behold.
It cannot be stolen...per sae, but many seek to harm it.
That's my dimes worth.
It's a very important matter in our society...it costs people dearly, at times.
It's bigger then what turns you on...or off.
QQ does some interesting threads, usually.
This one, I feel, needs a more direct question, a straight shot at what one questions ~ since the subject matter is so broad. With many layers. And issues.
Some that I think won't be served well here. jmho. Especially with TWI's influences around so many hearts...yet.
You say the thread is too ambitious, but you feel male beauty should be included, and that beauty is universal. That would make the topic considerably more broad, don't you think?
Male and female beauty are not the same thing. I think I mentioned that earlier. Seems obvious, but it's deeper than just labels.
I wanted to focus on female beauty because it's what I've been thinking about. A woman's form, yes, but her manner, her presence, her "way" with a man, another woman, a child - all beautiful, and more beautiful with the passing of time, if it's possible.
I hope this thread is sufficiently ambitious and circumspect to make any vaguely relevant observation both welcome and a propos, regardless of tangent. Consider it your invitation, and a challenge as well. It might not be easy, but you have a way with words.
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CircleGame
Beauty - that is a question!! Looks can change - are you really what you look like?? Different people can react according to what you look like - a good hair day, a bad hair day, flattering clothes, unflattering clothes, weight gain, etc. Pimples when young, lines when old. Men and boys REALLY react to a pretty or beautiful woman, and it can be surprising. Girls and women react to a good looking guy - and they can be surprised. However, males can be so much noisier!! And the impact can be deeper. For positive or negative. How different are boys and girls under 12?? They are different.. though all boys aren't exactly alike and all girls aren't exactly alike. At different times there have been different cultural expectations of what it means to be a man or a woman and different levels of getting people to "conform". Women historically have been more susceptible, however in the 90's it seems the tuff but good looking woman is the way to be - ala La Femme Nikita, lawyer shows with female lawyers, etc. Good health makes for good looks and good health is important. Excessive vanity is not important I don't think.
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up on high
forget it
[This message was edited by up on high on September 09, 2003 at 22:42.]
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mj412
being "pretty is two diffeeent things for me..
The time I straighten my hair , put on uncomfortable very spiky heels, wear red lipstick and a belt with a push up bra.. is very pretty as I go out ... once or twice a year and on xmas way to much effort I am tired by the time I get to the car door and need to drink alcohol for some reason..
but then I love my silk moo moo dress with the navy blue huge flowers and nothing eles and I feel soft and relaxed... or my cotton tee shirt that is 15 years old that is extra long very worn out has half length sleeves and cotton pants with bare feet.. I feel very pretty but look like a slob to the world...
see why I stay single??? my worlds collide .
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mj412
men have a lingerie section???
omg who knew ? I thought a towel around the waist was as good as it gets.. do tell
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QamiQazi
You don't want to ask a guy to show up in "male lingerie" or he may appear at your door in Speedo's and water wings.
I have heard that men buy more stuff at Victoria's Secret than women, in hopes the gifts' recipients will model it for them. Briefly.
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QamiQazi
But while it's clear that beauty and sexuality cross paths, they are not the same thing.
The truest form of beauty is that which encompasses body and soul. Hollywood has long recognized that plastic perfection is not as beautiful as reality. That's why Hollywood's biggest female stars, like male stars, are flawed. People respond to them because their beauty transcends the image they project.
Some of them might even be considered "homely" by ordinary standards, yet something radiates through.
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mj412
ok for the deep lesson there QQ on the inner beauty and all
yet''I will tell ya I can look at a "hot guy and see his body and see his hair and eyes and the way he LOOKS only and indeed think this is Gods master piece !!
it is when they start talking that a problem comes in ...
see why Im single?? getting clearer for anyone?
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johniam
Something weird is happening on this thread. Excathedra, I theen you may have some splaining to do. Just doing some detective work here. Really, nobody has any splaining to do and I don't CARE if it's none of my beeswax, I'm curious as to why....????....
21:32 Excathedra posts.
22:17 QQ posts.
22:17 Excathedra deletes most of previous post.
22:20 Ex realizes post had been read.
22:27 QQ deletes part of HIS post.
22:48 Ex posts again.
22:53 Laleo deletes entire long post that had been on for 8 1/2 hrs.
22:55 Ginger posts.
23:04 Ex deletes most of 22:48 post.
I was going to comment on part of Laleo's post, but now I don't know. This is weird.
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laleo
johniam,
My part isn't all that mysterious. I just felt like I wrote the wrong post for the wrong thread at the wrong time. It didn't quite flow with the confessional tone of the thread, and I thought it might be construed as being cold, or somehow unresponsive.
Side note: I think critics of the book The Beauty Myth have made a convincing case that Wolf distorted statistics to write a sensational account of a problem that may exist in some form, but was exploited in order to further her agenda. I was responding more to that than the larger topic of the emotional connections we make to our definitions of "beauty."
As I was working on editing my post, which was too long to begin with, I decided just to bag it instead, since it wasn't a pivotal post on this thread anyway. So that's why it's gone. I didn't mean to throw you off.
As far as commenting on the post, maybe another time on another thread. Okay?
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QamiQazi
laleo's post was very good. I hope some people got to read it.
I deleted very little of my own post - just the first line where I answered excathedra saying it was a good point. I kept the rest because it stood on its own, more or less.
I don't think laleo would mind if you commented, johniam, but she can speak for herself.
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QamiQazi
I guess I stand corrected.
laleo, your post was (I thought) candid and even confessional in its own right. Sorry you thought it lacked something. I don't think so. Glad I read it a few times - before it was too late.
You said you didn't think this was a touchy subject, but I think johniam's observation points to the probability that it is. That isn't good or bad. It does reveal how much of our self-esteem is invested in our sense of beauty, even when we try to be objective about this supremely subjective perception.
I think anyone reading will consider what beauty means to them, and how they have pursued it, either as a male or a female in our respective roles.
Thank you for leaving your post as long as you did. It was worthwhile.
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excathedra
mine was personal and i felt exposed
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johniam
Thanks for the feedback; I thought I was gonna get flamed for that. I agree with QQ that Laleo's post was good and candid. I found nothing threatening or offensive about it.
Excath: I thawree.
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Shellon
When I first read this thread, I instantly thought of two beautiful monsters I created.
I am the mother of two very lovely girls. I say that of course, cuz I'm mom and I think my children are incredibly beautiful, but really they have been blessed with their fathers good looks. (and, lord help em, my wierdness).
However.....I have told my girls since the day each was born how beautiful they are, how wonderful they are, how welcome and wanted they were/are. What has become of my praise and compliments are two girls, one a young women and one a young girl, who truly believe that they are the most beautiful people that God ever saw fit to come up with. Oh crap! Yet, have I stopped mentioning their beauty to them? Nooooooooope
:P--> My youngest, when complimented "you look very pretty" answers with "yes, I know it" 
WHOA! That was my first hint to feed this kid some other diet that included meekness and better manners and understanding of the simple, quiet words Thank You!
What I did start adding is the old saying that my grandmother told me a kazillion times "pretty is as pretty does". This is very true and applicable, and needed for any of us to understand. I see that in my girls, as they contribute to their community, help their fellow people and are very wonderful children for this thankful and lucky mother.
My youngest daughter is eight years old now and in the past months has started to change in her attitude, physical appearance and interests, which include not being able to pass a mirror and any shiny object, to look at herself. Now, I understand that's normal and I like that she is interested in looking her best and being happy with what she sees looking back. Her 21 year old sister is exactly the same and in fact feeds her young sibling the 'you are the most beautiful sister in the world' buffet.
Sigh
I just wonder, that's all. I have told them both there is nothing that is not wonderful about them. (ok, there are days when I wonder who these people are), but I think each sneeze is the cutest sneeze I've ever heard, and a ton of other ultra mushy stuff like that. I'm a blabbering idiot when it comes to my children and their inner and outer beauty. I just don't want them to take that out into a crusty and not so beautiful world and expect that their beauty will take em too far.
(well, duh, I know, I started it!) However, in my defense, I have never told them they are better than others, and they BETTER not treat people with disrespect or disregard. I just worry about their own self respect as they find out that their beauty is not the end all, be all in a brutal reality.
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Shellon
Oh yeah, and........
I was also reminded of one time when I needed a new Dryer. It was a sweats and no make up day as I wandered into the appliance store to shop. I waited. I looked at the products. I waited. I stood and watched THREE employees wandering around, serving other customer and I waited. I went home.
I wanted to do a little personal test.
I returned about an hour later clothed in a dress, make up on and hair fixed nicely. FOUR employees suddenly were wanting to sell me a dryer. I asked for the manager and explained what I had done. I bought my dryer at another store. But it taught me something valuable that I also found to be pathetic.
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QamiQazi
Shellon, it must come back to "finding a balance" between the value we place on esthetics and things that are more important.
We may see a woman's healthy confidence as part of her "beauty" but arrogance and vanity to detract from it. People may over-ride their first impression if the behavior does not match the outward appearance, for better or for worse.
Beauty is often like a see-saw. We see people as more or less beautiful than others. Men are constantly rating women they see (this behavior usually subsides if a friendship or other relationship exists). We're all familiar with the meaning of "ten."
And many women compare themselves to others. As laleo pointed out, it may be in the circumstance of direct competition, or there may be a more generalized sense of competition.
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ChattyKathy
Shell, you also gave them the key to the stuff that makes for inner beauty.
Laleo, I also had the joy of reading your wonderful post before you deleted it, thank you.
QQ, just before I left twi I heard our BC telling a young set of parents not to tell their child she was good. It would lead to false security. This usage of good tied into the child?s self-image is why I bring it up here. Yet this leader neglected the substance of stuff her self-image needed. I think the advice of the BC was like my advising a nuclear physicist on how to do their job (by the way did you see Sci-Fi interview with Robert Lazar last night. Incredible...oops I really digressed there).
Anyway back to it again. My mom told me I was a pearl, never understood quite what that meant until later on in life and then understood she meant I was something precious born out of something ugly. Not meaning to go back to all that okay, but it is part of my upbringing. I do believe we impact our children?s ability to define beauty not only for themselves but also for those that will be a part of their lives.
I am redefining what beauty is in regards to myself. And some moments my Mom?s sweet voice calling me her pearl comes to mind and refreshes me like a gentle breeze. As well words said by others offer me courage to claim inner beauty as my own. We are not an island unto ourselves; I am of the opinion that we aid in building what people think of themselves. Better to start it early so our children can cope with the fickle views of society on what is beauty.
Johniam, I agree with the eyes.
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QamiQazi
And what about our personal sense of beauty?
Haven't we all experienced infatuation - a "crush?" How does your perception of the object of your affection change, for male or female? Is it the same as "closing time" for men (when the women -who haven't already left with someone - all get so much prettier)?
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QamiQazi
I also agree with johniam about a woman's eyes. I have seen very attractive women with eyes that were empty somehow. Can't explain it, but everything else about them didn't seem to matter. And the reverse is true as well.
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jardinero
Shell:
They will be beautiful with the same kind, generous, loving, caring, fun souls as their mom (no matter HOW weird she is!
;)-->)
J.
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Ginger Tea
What an observation...
I'm not going to bother here, in any case...and that's because one really has to have an god understanding, socially, and culturally of beauty and women...and how 'beauty' affects women, say, enough to be an issue...who's going to recognize it here?
If you want to write about it...it's one thing to add a personal opinion or experience...but that's all that can be achieved here, I feel.
I see fights breaking out...lol...
A mouse trap ready to snap...lol...
Go figure?
What can I say, I've been around here too long...
This is my business and I wouldn't write about it here...maybe some married Dads with a few daughters need or have insights they can share...but trust me, this isn't the arena for BEAUTY...national or global...for sure.
I will say there is an excellent documentary made about 3 years ago ~ by National Geographic...someone I know too well was interviewed for it....it's all about BEAUTY,
the world over...hope you Guys find it...it's very factual and insightful.
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johniam
Ginger: You said...
"If one puts love and care into their bodies, their faces, their hair...their belongings...like the gardens, they'll flourish in beauty."
Are you saying that, to you, beauty is just good stewardship of what God has given you?
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Ginger Tea
type-o's
god is good!
Ummm...I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder...ultimately...aren't the eyes the window to the soul?
Beauty is perceived many ways ~
Ugliness is, as well.
Taking good care of ones self, with loving intentions, 'inside' and out...inspires, delights and attracts people for better reasons...then if one sees or looks at beauty only on the outside...that is something else entirely, yes?
Has other 'meaning' yes?
Since this is about women, I might take offense ~ since beauty is universal...beyong gender.
I thank all that's good for beautiful men.
And beautiful women.
Beautiful people.
A run-way model may be beautiful to look at...and also may have the inner beauty, the kind that time, others, and circumstances cannot destroy.
People assume 'beauties' like this must be shallow.
While some may be...it's unrealistic to 'label' all outer-beauty as made-up and false.
The beauty ~ the authentic beauty ~ won't be limited by labels, or stereo-typical responses...it's timeless and precious and cultivated.
What female beauty does to men...well...I see what it does in some M.E. cultures...in some other primitive tribal-ritualistic communities, even in some far eastern cultures...and to some here, in the U.S..
When female beauty..the outside...is on the table...more is being related then looks, see?
John,
I am saying something like you are implying...
To be a woman, and one who has had to deal with outer beauty issues since a child (working, getting the audition or not, etc.)
...I find that outer beauty ~ and the discussion to answer ???
...needs to be more specific or just plain old philosophical
...because there are numerous serious issues that are affecting young people today, girls~suffering unrealistic expectations and boys~having unrealistic needs,
including the deluded (distorted) body image problems, self-loathing, etc
...that many teens (and younger) are experiencing
...too much to say
...too many bases to cover here with such a generalization.
Of course, unless one doesn't take it seriously.
I'm not one of those.
So, I can contribute, yes, authentic beauty is a thing to behold.
It cannot be stolen...per sae, but many seek to harm it.
That's my dimes worth.
It's a very important matter in our society...it costs people dearly, at times.
It's bigger then what turns you on...or off.
QQ does some interesting threads, usually.
This one, I feel, needs a more direct question, a straight shot at what one questions ~ since the subject matter is so broad. With many layers. And issues.
Some that I think won't be served well here. jmho. Especially with TWI's influences around so many hearts...yet.
Ginger
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QamiQazi
Ginger, interesting thoughts. And insightful.
You say the thread is too ambitious, but you feel male beauty should be included, and that beauty is universal. That would make the topic considerably more broad, don't you think?
Male and female beauty are not the same thing. I think I mentioned that earlier. Seems obvious, but it's deeper than just labels.
I wanted to focus on female beauty because it's what I've been thinking about. A woman's form, yes, but her manner, her presence, her "way" with a man, another woman, a child - all beautiful, and more beautiful with the passing of time, if it's possible.
I hope this thread is sufficiently ambitious and circumspect to make any vaguely relevant observation both welcome and a propos, regardless of tangent. Consider it your invitation, and a challenge as well. It might not be easy, but you have a way with words.
QQ
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