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Just for the record, since I saw it in WW's post, whom I do read and whom I do respect, I have Mike and Allan set to be ignored, have recently added OM and am currently considering adding yet one more poster to that setting. I happen to LOVE having that option! I can't recommend it highly enough!

Why should it matter to me if someone is ignoring me? I choose to correspond with those who want to correspond with me. I certainly don't waste my time worrying about or hanging around people who don't like me - it just frustrates both of us.

:offtopic:

I hear ya Belle, for me I find many of the posters I disagree with sometimes entertaining to read. Gems I might miss would be things like Jesus coming back teaching out of pfal, good for a laugh anyway.

If I don't want to read someone's post I just go past it, but I do sometimes skim posts to at least get the context of the conversation in the thread.

Many times when I skip a post, someone I enjoy reading has replied to that person and I end up going back to read the poster I don't enjoy reading, plus I like a balanced discussion. If we all just agreed on a topic, it would be boring, don't you think?

Even if the person is completely wrong in their point, it makes a better discussion getting others to post with more details to make the correct points, at least IMO.

So I decided not to use the ignore option. But there are some nasty posters too, that usually have no valid points and just like to call people names or make fun of or harass those that disagree with them, so I do understand why you like that option.

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Come on Danny..now you sound like your friend Mike..all of a sudden you're too tired to post and I wouldn't believe what you post etc... I just asked you to post a couple of these mind blowing things you've learnt outside of twi.

I don't need to state what 'midblowing' things I have discovered because as I have said before pfal did it all for me.

And no I don't believe way mags or pfal was 'God breathed' and no I didn't mean any disrespect to Mike as to what I said above, I just turned your comments about Mike back onto you.

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Come on Danny..now you sound like your friend Mike..all of a sudden you're too tired to post and I wouldn't believe what you post etc... I just asked you to post a couple of these mind blowing things you've learnt outside of twi.

I don't need to state what 'midblowing' things I have discovered because as I have said before pfal did it all for me.

And no I don't believe way mags or pfal was 'God breathed' and no I didn't mean any disrespect to Mike as to what I said above, I just turned your comments about Mike back onto you.

er - what comments "about Mike"?

And as you say, "pfal did it all" for you...

Danny

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I apologize to you, Allan, for my manner of brazen expressions toward you last night.

The fact is, yesterday was a very mind-blowing day for me, in that I witnessed the near

destruction of my mother's house from a leaking oil tank and frozen, burst water pipes -

which had been for sale, and about to close on a deal this week. The devastation of the inside of my old childhood home is absolutely heartbreaking. The house might have well been submerged in New Orleans.

But personal trials notwithstanding, I stand by the essence of my remarks.

I believe anyone who has ever taken PFAL is more than capable of going well beyond it.

If Jesus in essence said, "The works that I do, ye shall do greater" -

who are we to doubt that we can only do only as much or even less than the next guy, if in fact

that guy should be Wierwille (including with the area of 'research')?

There may be unique teachings only you may be able to accomplish and present, that no one else on the planet has ever yet considered, including Wierwille.

What a sad loss to the world that would be if that never happened, if remaining under the presumption that one guy did it all, and we need go no further, reducing us to spectators or worst yet, those nameless, faceless background extras wandering the school halls behind the main actors of "Beverly Hills 91020".

Danny

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E-Gads!

I run out of rare holiday season posting time and leave this thread and I'm STILL a topic of conversation above the thread's stated topic!

Oh! ...for the time required to deal with all these loose ends and inaccuracies.

Just to set one item straight:

(1) On page 34 of TNDC Dr claims that "every word I have written to you is true." Who is the "you" here? It's his students of PFAL. A careful scrutiny of every word on page 116 of TNDC will yield similar results.

(2) In his last teaching Dr urges us to master the written materials that come with the class. Every new student received a one-year subscription to the Way Magazine, and the masthead of the magazine says it's "The Magazine of Power for Abundant Living."

(3) In his May/June 1979 Our Times article Dr explains that we were given the accuracy of God's Word "in book and magazine form."

From these three points I see God's 1942 promise ultimate unfolding to us in "book and magazine form." God taught Dr and Dr taught us, according to that promise, and Dr's ultimate teaching of these revelations TO US GRADS is in his books and magazine articles.

Unfortunately, most of us OLGs tuned out Dr quite some time before this ultimate unfolding was finished, before the last articles and books were written. Most of us thought we had finished receiving the major benefits of PFAL from his verbal teachings and we relatively ignored the written forms, having spent some time with them much earlier.

Remember, though, that according to page 83 of PFAL, "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..." It's just SOME of what he wrote that is necessarily God-breathed, and it's what he wrote TO US. This is the one item I had time to work on this evening. Maybe after the holiday rush is over in mid January I'll have more time to deal with other items.

Edited by Mike
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Alfakat, you're about 3 posts short of a discussion forum.

Evan..apology accepted, that was some pretty bad news.

I occasionally go through material from Kenneth Copeland, Chris Pringle (who I really admire as a man of God) and many others and honestly have not found anything I would refer to as having a 'wow factor' compared to what VP presented.

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That's Danny with the bad news, not me Allan. Danny, that's really terrible! Best wishes & prayers man!

Allan, with all due respect, Copeland and Pringle are pretty unclear doctrinally. There are far better resources for launching off to better things than the hopelessly flawed PFAL. Check that, I'll call it "hopelessly flawed and evil" PFAL. I guess I'm not quite as nice as Danny, sorry. I say it not to inflame, but because I believe it to be true and impportant enough to say. If you were serious about discussing it, I'll throw out a few topics and if you're interested we could start a thread here:

-Christology

-Soteriology

-Dispensationalism

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[WordWolf in brackets again...]

E-Gads!

I run out of rare holiday season posting time and leave this thread and I'm STILL a topic of conversation above the thread's stated topic!

[Well, the topic was about how your Mikean doctrine is error.

The topic poster ASKED for a cease-fire, so I stopped posting.

You either failed to notice that in your reading,

or didn't care.

Either way... ]

Oh! ...for the time required to deal with all these loose ends and inaccuracies.

[As long as you hold demonstrably flawed works of men to

be God-breathed Holy Scripture, that will be a never-ending task...]

Just to set one item straight:

(1) On page 34 of TNDC Dr claims that "every word I have written to you is true." Who is the "you" here? It's his students of PFAL. A careful scrutiny of every word on page 116 of TNDC will yield similar results.

[i've noticed that, short though the pages are, you elected to leave

out the contents of the pages.

So we're supposed to just take your word at it that this is

what the page says and means.

Now, you demonstrated an inability to read one-paragraph posts

by people like Garth who were speaking plainly.

With that poor a track record,

why should we think you haven't similarly hallucinated

all over pages 34 and 116?]

(2) In his last teaching Dr urges us to master the written materials that come with the class. Every new student received a one-year subscription to the Way Magazine, and the masthead of the magazine says it's "The Magazine of Power for Abundant Living."

[A)Neither I nor my family got those issues.

B) The masthead of a magazine is there to sell the magazine.

It's supposed to be short, concise, and increase sales.

vpw, in particular, was focused on maximizing sales.

With everyone claiming (falsely) that pfal was uniquely great,

attaching its name to a magazine increases name recognition,

and thus increases sales. ]

(3) In his May/June 1979 Our Times article Dr explains that we were given the accuracy of God's Word "in book and magazine form."

[And yet,

the article is missing,

so I can't even read the SENTENCE that supposedly supports this claim.

So there's effectively no difference between Mike inventing this

from thin air,

and Mike hallucinating this out of innocent sentences...]

From these three points I see God's 1942 promise ultimate unfolding to us in "book and magazine form."

[No need to spend THAT much effort.

You can "see" the "1942 promise" from menus and matchbook covers...

God never gave a promise to vpw in 1942,

and God never gave us one about vpw either-

in 1942 or any other year. ]

God taught Dr

[No,

vpw copied over the bodies of work of other men,

then CLAIMED God taught him.

Big difference.]

and Dr taught us, according to that promise,

[No,

vpw "taught us" that promise,

intending to engender loyalty and respect where it was not earned.

In the case of a few people, he succeeded beyond his wildest

expectations.]

and Dr's ultimate teaching of these revelations

[No "revelations", just the contents of other men's works]

TO US GRADS is in his books and magazine articles.

[Which we paid retail for, despite costing twi little to publish.

That was a tidy business for vpw.]

Unfortunately, most of us OLGs tuned out Dr quite some time before this ultimate unfolding was finished, before the last articles and books were written. Most of us thought we had finished receiving the major benefits of PFAL from his verbal teachings and we relatively ignored the written forms, having spent some time with them much earlier.

[The written forms were based ON the tapes.

Our ability to recall the contents of the books were all put to the

test in A) the Home Studies

B) the Advanced Class Exam.

Ever hear anyone fail the exam?

That's because they all knew the contents of the books.

Without finding secret hidden cabalistic messages in them.]

Remember, though, that according to page 83 of PFAL, "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..."

[According to that same page, not all that Martin Luther wrote will necessarily be

God-breathed,

"BUT THE SCRIPTURES-THEY ARE GOD-BREATHED."

"but" sets in contrast what came before with what follows-remember that?

Straight out of vp.

The contrast was between the writings of

"Wierwille"

"Calvin"

"Luther"

"Wesley"

"Graham"

"Roberts"

and

"the Scriptures"

because

"they are God-Breathed."

I'll reproduce more from that page later when I have time....

Mike's been told this before,

and keeps pretending that he has no knowledge

that he's twisting the contents of the page...]

It's just SOME of what he wrote that is necessarily God-breathed,

[No,

that's the twisting Mike did to that page that

supposedly supports the Mikean doctrine.]

and it's what he wrote TO US. This is the one item I had time to work on this evening. Maybe after the holiday rush is over in mid January I'll have more time to deal with other items.

[How about quoting the actual pages you supposedly

read above,

from which you've twisted the text until it no longer

resembled its original meaning?

Seeing what you've done to the other stuff,

we've no confidence in your sleight-of-hand.]

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WW,

All of a sudden context becomes important to you?

I quote from cited pages we all (OLGs) had in our hands numerous times, and the wise among us still have in our libraries, and you are looking for context from me.

When you quote me you seem to have no regard for saving my context and/or displaying it for all, even though it's very difficult and/or time consuming to impossible for readers to find it.

I sense a double standard.

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WW,

All of a sudden context becomes important to you?

[Not "all of a sudden".

Half a sentence hardly qualifies to fairly represent most things.

As I already showed quoting more of page 83 of the Orange Book

than you did,

you have a habit of picking out phrases, changing their

meaning.

(This is similar to quoting Psalms to say "there is no God".)

By giving a larger quote than 1/2 a sentence,

I showed you STILL strip that phrase of its meaning by

isolating it as you did.]

I quote from cited pages we all (OLGs) had in our hands numerous times,

[And don't all still own, let alone have handy.

Common rules of discussion require you to provide

DOCUMENTATION.

Otherwise, I could just say I have what's left of a manuscript

vpw made where he admitted it was all a scheme.

Hey, without documentation, ANY fool claim can be made.]

and the wise among us still have in our libraries,

[And not necessarily handy, but if YOU'RE invoking something,

YOU provide the documentation.

That's how INTELLIGENT discussion goes.

This is NOT your classroom,

and we are NOT your students.

You haven't even shown to be our equal,

let alone sufficient to teach us. ]

and you are looking for context from me.

[Well, YOU invoked the Green Book,

YOU provide the text.]

When you quote me you seem to have no regard for saving my context and/or displaying it for all,

[Actually,

straightforward things don't NEED context to make them clear.

It's the addition of secret meanings that complicate things.

Besides, I save the dates and times so others can read them.

Finally,

in some cases,

I have quoted the entire post-which means there WAS no context.

In others, I included the context.]

even though it's very difficult and/or time consuming to impossible for readers to find it.

[Just because your skills in using the "search" function are deficient,

does not mean that others are that remedial.

I found them within a minute.

I'm hardly exceptional in that regard. ]

I sense a double standard.

[You "sense" many things.

When you start to sense them CORRECTLY,

I'll pay attention.]

[since you brought up some of your previous statements,

and "clearing up" what you meant,

What DID you mean by

"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you

from it."

We know you were actually SERIOUS and not joking,

because when someone asked

"So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand?"

you responded with

"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."

So,

go ahead,

"clear the air."

What did you mean when you (totally) seriously said that "Christ in his glory will be

holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it"?

While we're at it,

you might want to explain

"Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.

He told me so."

I figure the answer for one is probably related to the answer

for the other.

Rather than just presume that,

I'll ask you outright-again-to speak plainly.

So far,

all good-faith attempts to get plain answers have been

met with obfuscations and smokescreens,

but you MIGHT give a straight answer. ]

Edited by WordWolf
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Mike,

Here is the most cogent point I can think of.

You really have failed to prove that PFAL is God-breathed. You have a better argument in saying that God led VPW to the various elements of PFAL.

If PFAL is to be treated as scripture there must be proof. It is not enough to simply quote the class and the words of VPW, or the collaterals. That is like defining a word by using thesame word in the definition. (Just because I tell you that I am holy doen't make me holy - neither does me telling you that God told me to tell you that I am holy.) So here is a question:

What have you learned from PFAL that you could not learn from the Word itself? (The answer "how to work the word just isn't good enough - because that information was available long before the class.)

Doctrine? Reproof? Correction? Instruction in righteousness? Praise?

I see no new doctrine for the generation. No new light. At most there might be a repetition of old light that is new to the generation. (This is a real stretch for me - I did my research paper on apostles and I am NOT submitting that PFAL was new light of any kind - Just playing devil's advocate...) But this does not consitute a working of the class where I find the first use of a word and follow it through.

Please be specific.

Keep in mind that I am well aware that the writings of Paul were not necessarily treated as scripture when they were written. God through Paul helped believers meander their way through an age where grace would abound. (Not so sure is always abounds on this thread though ;)

I think that C.S. Lewis would approach the subject in this manner:

If working the Word includes comparing scripture with scripture how can you go about doing so with PFAL and the collaterals?

Now God gives lots of revelation to lots of people so even if we will take the "Evil Kneival-sized" leap of faith that God gave VPW revelation regarding PFAL, that doesn't make it scripture. ( BTW I do not subscribe to this belief.) Nor does it require that I work it as if it were scripture. If that is so then I also had better get busy checking the words, teachings and writings of every Christian thinker and teacher. Eventually the job would be so colossal that no Christian would ever get down to the business of loving God and serving His people. We are to fear God and keep His commandments - I just dont' believe that God wants us caught up in the web of chasing down just what those commandments are.

AND... the ad hominum attack is the absolute weakest attack from a logical point of view. It gets results but that doesn't mean anything - ultimately. It justs stalls the issues at hand. (this is no matter who does the attacking)

Edited by doojable
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doojable,

It's nice to see when someone spends the time to compose their thoughts like you do. I'll attempt to answer you when time allows. It's just very scarce now, and when I do have time I'm pretty tired... too tired to write. This is the rush season for my business, but it will end a few weeks after Christmas.

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What have you learned from PFAL that you could not learn from the Word itself? (The answer "how to work the word just isn't good enough - Because that information was available long before the class.)

Oh boy -- can't wait for the answer (if there is one) to this!!

:D :D :D

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You really have failed to prove that PFAL is God-breathed.

Even in my most *in* days of being an *innie* of twi, I never, ever, once,

consisidered docvic's words *God-Breathed*.

While he said many times *It's the Word, the Word, and nuthing but the Word*

I never heard him say

*It's the Orange Book*

*It's the Blue Book*

*It's the Green Book*

Etc., etc., etc.,

Whatcha think, Mike???

Did docvic ever say it's the Orange, Blue, or Green book like you do????

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You really have failed to prove that PFAL is God-breathed.

In fact, it has been disproven by the very standards of PFAL! But it didn't need to be, because Wierwille himself discredited this specific, ridiculous notion both within and outside the pages of PFAL.

Wierwille denied it personally.

Everyone who knew Wierwille denies it.

Everyone who worked on the books denies it.

And Allan, I'm sorry, but there is nothing correct in PFAL that cannot be learned from the Bible on its own, without PFAL.

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I see at least ten topics here I'd love to have the time to dispatch with, but doojable's post deserves the most time, in my opinion.

***

Since this is on topic, and not on me:

dmiller,

You wrote: "Did docvic ever say it's the Orange, Blue, or Green book like you do????"

I don't even have to be awake to answer this.

Yes. He said it in his last teaching when he said that the object of our mastery efforts should be those VERY books... and a few more. This was addressed to top leadership, with some application to all born again believers.

He also said it in the 1979 AC segment #5, addressed to AC students and grads, with these words: "I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on 'Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,' and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves."

He also said it at Sound Out '84 that younger believers should think about mastering JCOP and JCPS, and JCNG. I think, those three are mentioned, but I'm too tired to check the tape or my notes.

He also said it in his second to the last teaching, "The Hope," that we should think about mastering ADAN.

He also strongly hinted at it to the Early Corps in the mid 70's about RHST mastery, later distributed in Univ of Life Ephesians #17.

Thank you, dmiller. Your question gave me the opportunity to post these references again, after posting them about a dozen times each. Don't they sound familiar by now?

Notice that these all occur in the later stages of Dr's ministry, when upper leadership had first tuned him out in the late 70's and spreading to everyone by the mid 80's.

***

The shotgun approach to hitting me with vast quantities of subjects demanding responses is really getting ridiculous. For ww to do this alone is bad enough, but for all of you to barrage me with challenges is wasting all your time and mine.

This is filibustering at it's worst, and is rotten to the core. It's nothing but the prevention of action through deliberate abuse within the rules. It resembles TWI strategies at their worst. Some of you could make very "respectable" lawyers and great incomes prostituting your intellects and QWERTY skills for TWI-like clients trying to use the letter of the law to circumvent intent of the law. . .

In the US Senate they call it filibustering.

I'd suggest to WW that he select out of all his objections the one most worthy of all of our time, both his and mine and the rest of us. Same to the rest of you. Form a committee and select some FEW items we can get into in detail. Otherwise I'll just ignore you all and have a private discussion with doojable right in front of you all. Or she and I could resort to PMs if you all insist on misbehaving any more.

***

There are a few exceptions to this complaint of mine, like oldiesman, and a few others.

Allan, are you blocking my e-mails AND my PMs to you? I can't get a response from you.

***

Now, does anyone see any ONE topic addressed to me on these many pages of this one thread worth me interrupting my sleep and interrupting my composing of my response to doojable to deal with?

If so I'd be happy to judge it's overall merits and spiritual profit, and it it fails I'll "thumbs down" it with a righteous and deliberate DODGE, which is simply a rhetorical and elegant usage of the "ignore" feature in every respect.

Edited by Mike
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Now, does anyone see any ONE topic addressed to me on these many pages of this one thread worth me interrupting my sleep and interrupting my composing of my response to doojable to deal with?
Hey chief. Nobody made you get out of bed. That's YOUR responsibility, as well as YOUR problem. Soquityerbellyachin'!
Allan, are you blocking my e-mails AND my PMs to you? I can't get a response from you.

You sound surprised at this? What were you expecting? A hug?

:rolleyes:

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