Well said Raf..maybe a better way for me to state what I believe would be to say " I believe that pfal is up there as one of the best of all the flawed works."
Or, one can spend a a couple days browsing and rummaging through the "theological" section of the libraries at the local colleges and universities in their area. But if one can't do that, pick a couple Biblical subjects that interests you most and browse through the online library catalogues, through which just about any number of studies can be obtained through interlibrary loan.
There are lot of excellent, mind-blowing things outside the walls of "PFAL".
Or, one can spend a a couple days browsing and rummaging through the "theological" section of the libraries at the local colleges and universities in their area...There are lot of excellent, mind-blowing things outside the walls of "PFAL".
Danny
Danny
It's difficult for many of us ex-wayfers to be able to appreciate all that. One thing we learned in TWI was how to view everything through the lens of PFAL. It then becomes too easy to dismiss the different as "not lining up with the Word", when it just differs from the PFAL filtered version of 'the Word'.
Wait, let's say it's a cool 75%, just for the sake of argument. The problem is that Piffle *demands you buy the system in toto. It's the only way it really works.
I submit that the "whole system" is a hopelessly corrupt theology and collapses under its own weight. I mean, hasn't Der Weg been sufficient proof of that?
In order for it to "work" PFAL needed the support system of the whole MLM scheme which was TWI.
"The Class" itself, when viewed without the idealism, inexperience, and community supplied "blinders" of our youth, is pretty tepid material at best. What really made it seem noteworthy was the cast of cheerleaders continually touting the miraculousness of what would have been - were it not for their efforts - a really dreary 32 hours of blather...
If you think that "The Class" is still some great kinda stuff, I'd submit that you need to get out more...
I don't believe PFAL demands that you buy into the system 100% or nothing. That's TST (The Smikeolean Tradition). It is inconsistent with PFAL to treat PFAL as a model of perfection.
gee whiz, half-baked kraappp still has the same fragrance 3 years later..... only MORE
whooda thunk it???
.
.
.
.... and waddahayseed, your stuff ages well, as well .... same pomposity and gassy volume we have come to know and love from you.... and all dressed up in a shiny, tinsle-yy, contemporary cultural "analogy" -- high marks, indeed...
in the words of our pre-emminent modern-day philosopher, "Sheeesh! What a (couple of) maroons!"
Dear Mike, Allan, and Phil aka Oldiesman, what about the trilogy on Jesus Christ:JCNG, JCOP,and JCOPS? are they part of PFAL canon/writings? How do you reconcile PFAL in which Dr. Wierwille makes the following statement that Bar Mitsphah(?) is normally held at age 13, but bastardized boys are at 12? Considering that ceremony didn't start until about 1000 or later AD/CE and was a Jewish equivalent to Christian catechesism/confirmation. In Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed, there is no mention of that, but rather it is Passover and there is no questioning by the rabis or priests about the faith or having them read from the torah during worship either at the temple or any synagogue? Why the obvious contradiction unless Wierwille made a mistake in PFAL(both the video class and the orange book)? Unless Doc W. was quoting either the Mishnah, Talmud, or other non-biblical Jewish resource? Just wondering, that's all.
TLB, your questions are very good ones, but I'm afraid you won't get answers from any of them. Not straight ones anyway. They only know how to insult people, their beliefs and call people names. They don't know how to answer questions directly.
Come on, guys, put yourself in Mike's position, and the answer is easy.
First, PFAL is the touchstone for truth, so the fact that IT IS WRITTEN in PFAL makes it true. Therefore, the question is not "Why does PFAL say it?" The question is, "Why don't you believe it?"
You see, there WAS a bar-mitzvah before the time of Christ. There had to be, because God said in the pages of PFAL that Jesus went through bar mitvah at 12 instead of 13 because he was considered illegitimate. God can't be wrong. Therefore, PFAL is right. Furthermore, we know that the "old piece of literature" Wierwille trusted to make his assertion was legitimate and accurate, even though that old piece of literature has never been identified and no comparable piece of literature, old or new, has duplicated the assertion. How do we know the old piece of literature is reliable? God allowed Wierwille to include it in PFAL. Had it not been reliable, God wouldn't have allowed Wierwille to write it. Therefore it was reliable, there were bar mitzvahs prior to the first century, and Jesus was bar mitzvahed at 12 instead of 13 because he was considered illegitimate. Oh ye of little faith.
I see that Ahithophel was Bathsheba's grandfather (took a little digging), but I do not see that he knew anything about what had happened prior to Uriah's death. If there's something there, could you point me to it?
A little speculation, and maybe Ahithophel did some math, calculating the time between David's marriage to Bathsheba and the birth of Solomon, realizing it was less than nine months. But I don't see anything explicit enough to support "he made sure everybody knew."
Raf, sorry for taking so long. Technically, this is circumstantial evidence, but somewhere it says that everything David did pleased the people early on. His "approval rating" was pretty high. But by the time the psalms were written he was "the song of drunkards" a laughing stock. This was largely Ahithophel's doing. That scripture where it says "Mine own familiar friend hath lifted up his heel against me" ...the one about Judas, was originally about Ahithophel. He had been one of David's advisors, but he was instrumental in getting Absalom into power. Lot of similarities between Ahithophel and Judas.
And -- (I don't believe I am *betraying* a confidence here), Mike also believes the Way magazine to be held in the same respect as pfal. He said so to myself, and several others in a group PT setting on the other board, before this one.
It was hard for me to fathom that one would *nit-pick* the words of an article docvic wrote in the way rag to prove a point that he was saying something that amounted to *this is The Word of God*. But it was being discussed as a serious subject. Nothing facetious about the comments there.
The way magazine was being treated with equal status to pfal. Me -- I was thinking -- what about the editing, the type space, everything else that goes into a magazine, yada yada, yada, before printing it -- and then once it is published pick and chose certain words, tie them together, and then call it *God-breathed*???
Didn't work for me then, nor will it now.
Short of the long of it is -- (Mr. Bumgarner) -- out of the three persons you asked that question to, it is my experience that Mike believes any and all things written by docvic.
In those PT's -- he quoted JCNG along with various way magazine articles, but I don't remember now if JCOP and JCOPS were included. However it stands to reason that they would have been, since even the way magazine was scrutinized for tidbits of *divine info*.
Just my 2 cents worth, from my *personal* (internet) experience with Mike.
I think that it is very interesting that Mike hasn't posted in a couple of pages yet many of you are talking for him. Some of you that don't agree with him are even making his arguments for him - or so it seems -
When docvic promoted the teaching that "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" meant:
*My God, for this purpose I was spared* (or something to that effect),
He was blowing smoke (to put it politely).
Lotsa folks here don't care much for CES and their Truth or Tradition site,
but if you look HERE, you'll find a teaching that makes sense about this particular subject.
Makes more sense to me than docvic's rendition,
which some here would claim as *gospel*.
David
David,
Interesting thing you bring up. The relationship with Ps 22 is, in addition to what CES is teaching, also what the Catholic Church teaches about this, as well.
Here's another interesting thing: if you take a look at an online Pesh itta interlinear of Matt 27 (available here, you'll note that it says in v 46 "why have you spared me?" in the literal English. Now, literally the only TWI books I have kept were the Aramaic Interlinears and concordance. So I pulled them out for grins...and guess what: they say the same thing! "why have you spared me?" So, again just for grins, I pull out my Lamsa Bible (all from Aramaic): and you know what it has for Ps 22:1? "My God, my God, why hast thou let me to live?" (sort of sounds like "spared me," huh?)
Thought you'd find that interesting...
Oh, and btw, I have little or no use for CES, but when they've got it right, they've got it right! Hat tip to them!
Hi Danny..Oldies posted a pretty comprehensive list of pfal topics.
Can you post even half a dozen of these exciting mindblowing dicoveries that you have found ??
I'm not being fasecious..sp..? just curious.
I can't help but wonder - are you are asking me this because you haven't expended one iota of your own personal thought, time and energy into exploring anything on your own, outside of parroting another man's conclusions?
Once upon a time I thought I was part of an extraordinary group of people who comprised the world's greatest "Biblical Research" center - the "maverick" Christian scholars of the world who weren't afraid to go where no man has gone before in the field monopolized by the usual, toe-the-line traditional brown-nosers and "yes-men".
You haven't made any mindblowing discoveries on your own, Allan?
Why not?
I thought you kangaroo-hopping Aussies crushing those ironclad Fostex beer cans on your heads were a much hardier and adventuresome lot than that.
No, I will not boast this evening a comprehensive list of my "mind-blowing' discoveries - it's getting late and I've had one hell of a day.
And besides, why should you take my word on anything I say (as you apparently so easily do a certain other)?
Rather, why don't you take half the things on OM's list (if you wish), to get thyself to thy nearest university library to simply explore whatever stuff interests thee most for thine own self?
Or are you afraid to do that, because you believe once upon a time a MOG gave you all the answers and thus, you have no further need or reason to "re-invent the wheel" or some such other hindering, half-baked enslaving logic to squelch your hungering spirit?
"(Wierwille said) the Word says it - that settles it"
Are you going to settle for that?
Do you consider your own heart, judgment and abilities so insignificant?
Where the hell are the maverick scholars that I once thought comprised the Way International?
Has Wierwille's doctrines castrated you that much?
I think that it is very interesting that Mike hasn't posted in a couple of pages yet many of you are talking for him. Some of you that don't agree with him are even making his arguments for him - or so it seems -
Anyway - just an observation...
Dooj, as you are late to this conversation, please allow me to fill you in. There's nothing new here. These specific questions have been asked of Mike before. It's not so much speaking for him as it is remembering his previous answers and anticipating how he would respond to the questions as reworded.
You're right. No one should speak for him. Guilty as charged. But I've heard his answers to these kinds of questions before. I wouldn't be surprised if my "guess" was not that far off the mark.
P.S. Everything in my previous post, Mike has told me personally. Not in those specific words, but I made nothing up.
I wasn't making a "charge" for you to be guilty of. I just have checked this thread every few days or so an have noticed - no Mike.
For the record - or just to satisfy my curiosity - why is it necessary to anticipate his responses?
Lots of good discussion here. A little mean spirited at times - but good just the same. Maybe there's nothing new because -well, there's nothing new to say.
The way I have always approached the subject is this:
If the things in PFAL have helped at all then use them. Don't use what has no value. I often wonder if TWI had not gotten so big so fast because of the youth that carried it in the '70's, if maybe other classes would have carried some of this info instead. Then TWI maybe wouldn't have existed but a lot of the info would still be out there.
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Allan
Well said Raf..maybe a better way for me to state what I believe would be to say " I believe that pfal is up there as one of the best of all the flawed works."
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Raf
If that's how you feel. :)
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TheInvisibleDan
Or, one can spend a a couple days browsing and rummaging through the "theological" section of the libraries at the local colleges and universities in their area. But if one can't do that, pick a couple Biblical subjects that interests you most and browse through the online library catalogues, through which just about any number of studies can be obtained through interlibrary loan.
There are lot of excellent, mind-blowing things outside the walls of "PFAL".
Danny
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Oakspear
It's difficult for many of us ex-wayfers to be able to appreciate all that. One thing we learned in TWI was how to view everything through the lens of PFAL. It then becomes too easy to dismiss the different as "not lining up with the Word", when it just differs from the PFAL filtered version of 'the Word'.
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TheEvan
Okay Raf, but I'll have to call it 20%
That's a seriously failing grade.
Wait, let's say it's a cool 75%, just for the sake of argument. The problem is that Piffle *demands you buy the system in toto. It's the only way it really works.
I submit that the "whole system" is a hopelessly corrupt theology and collapses under its own weight. I mean, hasn't Der Weg been sufficient proof of that?
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George Aar
And if I might add to Evan's post,
In order for it to "work" PFAL needed the support system of the whole MLM scheme which was TWI.
"The Class" itself, when viewed without the idealism, inexperience, and community supplied "blinders" of our youth, is pretty tepid material at best. What really made it seem noteworthy was the cast of cheerleaders continually touting the miraculousness of what would have been - were it not for their efforts - a really dreary 32 hours of blather...
If you think that "The Class" is still some great kinda stuff, I'd submit that you need to get out more...
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Raf
I don't believe PFAL demands that you buy into the system 100% or nothing. That's TST (The Smikeolean Tradition). It is inconsistent with PFAL to treat PFAL as a model of perfection.
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alfakat
gee whiz, half-baked kraappp still has the same fragrance 3 years later..... only MORE
whooda thunk it???
.
.
.
.... and waddahayseed, your stuff ages well, as well .... same pomposity and gassy volume we have come to know and love from you.... and all dressed up in a shiny, tinsle-yy, contemporary cultural "analogy" -- high marks, indeed...
in the words of our pre-emminent modern-day philosopher, "Sheeesh! What a (couple of) maroons!"
:blink:
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Dear Mike, Allan, and Phil aka Oldiesman, what about the trilogy on Jesus Christ:JCNG, JCOP,and JCOPS? are they part of PFAL canon/writings? How do you reconcile PFAL in which Dr. Wierwille makes the following statement that Bar Mitsphah(?) is normally held at age 13, but bastardized boys are at 12? Considering that ceremony didn't start until about 1000 or later AD/CE and was a Jewish equivalent to Christian catechesism/confirmation. In Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed, there is no mention of that, but rather it is Passover and there is no questioning by the rabis or priests about the faith or having them read from the torah during worship either at the temple or any synagogue? Why the obvious contradiction unless Wierwille made a mistake in PFAL(both the video class and the orange book)? Unless Doc W. was quoting either the Mishnah, Talmud, or other non-biblical Jewish resource? Just wondering, that's all.
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Allan
Hi Danny..Oldies posted a pretty comprehensive list of pfal topics.
Can you post even half a dozen of these exciting mindblowing dicoveries that you have found ??
I'm not being fasecious..sp..? just curious.
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Belle
TLB, your questions are very good ones, but I'm afraid you won't get answers from any of them. Not straight ones anyway. They only know how to insult people, their beliefs and call people names. They don't know how to answer questions directly.
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Raf
Come on, guys, put yourself in Mike's position, and the answer is easy.
First, PFAL is the touchstone for truth, so the fact that IT IS WRITTEN in PFAL makes it true. Therefore, the question is not "Why does PFAL say it?" The question is, "Why don't you believe it?"
You see, there WAS a bar-mitzvah before the time of Christ. There had to be, because God said in the pages of PFAL that Jesus went through bar mitvah at 12 instead of 13 because he was considered illegitimate. God can't be wrong. Therefore, PFAL is right. Furthermore, we know that the "old piece of literature" Wierwille trusted to make his assertion was legitimate and accurate, even though that old piece of literature has never been identified and no comparable piece of literature, old or new, has duplicated the assertion. How do we know the old piece of literature is reliable? God allowed Wierwille to include it in PFAL. Had it not been reliable, God wouldn't have allowed Wierwille to write it. Therefore it was reliable, there were bar mitzvahs prior to the first century, and Jesus was bar mitzvahed at 12 instead of 13 because he was considered illegitimate. Oh ye of little faith.
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johniam
quote: John,
I see that Ahithophel was Bathsheba's grandfather (took a little digging), but I do not see that he knew anything about what had happened prior to Uriah's death. If there's something there, could you point me to it?
A little speculation, and maybe Ahithophel did some math, calculating the time between David's marriage to Bathsheba and the birth of Solomon, realizing it was less than nine months. But I don't see anything explicit enough to support "he made sure everybody knew."
Raf, sorry for taking so long. Technically, this is circumstantial evidence, but somewhere it says that everything David did pleased the people early on. His "approval rating" was pretty high. But by the time the psalms were written he was "the song of drunkards" a laughing stock. This was largely Ahithophel's doing. That scripture where it says "Mine own familiar friend hath lifted up his heel against me" ...the one about Judas, was originally about Ahithophel. He had been one of David's advisors, but he was instrumental in getting Absalom into power. Lot of similarities between Ahithophel and Judas.
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Raf
Inconclusive either way, IMO, but certainly enough for me to retract what I said. Thanks.
I'll keep looking at that. Interesting stuff.
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dmiller
Hiya Allan.
Just because Oldies produced a long list of pfal topics doesn't mean much,
other than twi published on a lot of topics.
And just because they were published, that doesn't grant them *God-breathed* status.
Docvic's *The Cry Of Triumph* was totally wrong.
When docvic promoted the teaching that "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" meant:
*My God, for this purpose I was spared* (or something to that effect),
He was blowing smoke (to put it politely).
Lotsa folks here don't care much for CES and their Truth or Tradition site,
but if you look HERE, you'll find a teaching that makes sense about this particular subject.
Makes more sense to me than docvic's rendition,
which some here would claim as *gospel*.
David
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dmiller
And -- (I don't believe I am *betraying* a confidence here), Mike also believes the Way magazine to be held in the same respect as pfal. He said so to myself, and several others in a group PT setting on the other board, before this one.
It was hard for me to fathom that one would *nit-pick* the words of an article docvic wrote in the way rag to prove a point that he was saying something that amounted to *this is The Word of God*. But it was being discussed as a serious subject. Nothing facetious about the comments there.
The way magazine was being treated with equal status to pfal. Me -- I was thinking -- what about the editing, the type space, everything else that goes into a magazine, yada yada, yada, before printing it -- and then once it is published pick and chose certain words, tie them together, and then call it *God-breathed*???
Didn't work for me then, nor will it now.
Short of the long of it is -- (Mr. Bumgarner) -- out of the three persons you asked that question to, it is my experience that Mike believes any and all things written by docvic.
In those PT's -- he quoted JCNG along with various way magazine articles, but I don't remember now if JCOP and JCOPS were included. However it stands to reason that they would have been, since even the way magazine was scrutinized for tidbits of *divine info*.
Just my 2 cents worth, from my *personal* (internet) experience with Mike.
David
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doojable
I think that it is very interesting that Mike hasn't posted in a couple of pages yet many of you are talking for him. Some of you that don't agree with him are even making his arguments for him - or so it seems -
Anyway - just an observation...
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markomalley
David,
Interesting thing you bring up. The relationship with Ps 22 is, in addition to what CES is teaching, also what the Catholic Church teaches about this, as well.
Here's another interesting thing: if you take a look at an online Pesh itta interlinear of Matt 27 (available here, you'll note that it says in v 46 "why have you spared me?" in the literal English. Now, literally the only TWI books I have kept were the Aramaic Interlinears and concordance. So I pulled them out for grins...and guess what: they say the same thing! "why have you spared me?" So, again just for grins, I pull out my Lamsa Bible (all from Aramaic): and you know what it has for Ps 22:1? "My God, my God, why hast thou let me to live?" (sort of sounds like "spared me," huh?)
Thought you'd find that interesting...
Oh, and btw, I have little or no use for CES, but when they've got it right, they've got it right! Hat tip to them!
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TheInvisibleDan
I can't help but wonder - are you are asking me this because you haven't expended one iota of your own personal thought, time and energy into exploring anything on your own, outside of parroting another man's conclusions?
Once upon a time I thought I was part of an extraordinary group of people who comprised the world's greatest "Biblical Research" center - the "maverick" Christian scholars of the world who weren't afraid to go where no man has gone before in the field monopolized by the usual, toe-the-line traditional brown-nosers and "yes-men".
You haven't made any mindblowing discoveries on your own, Allan?
Why not?
I thought you kangaroo-hopping Aussies crushing those ironclad Fostex beer cans on your heads were a much hardier and adventuresome lot than that.
No, I will not boast this evening a comprehensive list of my "mind-blowing' discoveries - it's getting late and I've had one hell of a day.
And besides, why should you take my word on anything I say (as you apparently so easily do a certain other)?
Rather, why don't you take half the things on OM's list (if you wish), to get thyself to thy nearest university library to simply explore whatever stuff interests thee most for thine own self?
Or are you afraid to do that, because you believe once upon a time a MOG gave you all the answers and thus, you have no further need or reason to "re-invent the wheel" or some such other hindering, half-baked enslaving logic to squelch your hungering spirit?
"(Wierwille said) the Word says it - that settles it"
Are you going to settle for that?
Do you consider your own heart, judgment and abilities so insignificant?
Where the hell are the maverick scholars that I once thought comprised the Way International?
Has Wierwille's doctrines castrated you that much?
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Raf
Dooj, as you are late to this conversation, please allow me to fill you in. There's nothing new here. These specific questions have been asked of Mike before. It's not so much speaking for him as it is remembering his previous answers and anticipating how he would respond to the questions as reworded.
You're right. No one should speak for him. Guilty as charged. But I've heard his answers to these kinds of questions before. I wouldn't be surprised if my "guess" was not that far off the mark.
P.S. Everything in my previous post, Mike has told me personally. Not in those specific words, but I made nothing up.
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dmiller
I agree.
Remember the old saying --*You can set your clock by ----*???
Well -- you can do the same here.
What you are reading here is both predictable and redundant.
"Nothing new under the sun" comes to mind.
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dmiller
Mark -- sorry, but your here link did not work for the Pesh itta interlinear of Mat. 27.
And again -- I'll re-iterate that I understand many here have problems with CES,
but thanks for your *hat's off* to them.
I don't agree with all they teach either, but as you said:
:)
(I myself am more interested in correct teaching, than a group).
I'll google the Pesh itta interlinear and see if I can't find it.
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markomalley
Sorry for the bad link. The site is: www dot pe sh it ta dot org
(the filter kills the name. Replace the "dot" with . and remove all the spaces and it will work for you.
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doojable
Raf,
I wasn't making a "charge" for you to be guilty of. I just have checked this thread every few days or so an have noticed - no Mike.
For the record - or just to satisfy my curiosity - why is it necessary to anticipate his responses?
Lots of good discussion here. A little mean spirited at times - but good just the same. Maybe there's nothing new because -well, there's nothing new to say.
The way I have always approached the subject is this:
If the things in PFAL have helped at all then use them. Don't use what has no value. I often wonder if TWI had not gotten so big so fast because of the youth that carried it in the '70's, if maybe other classes would have carried some of this info instead. Then TWI maybe wouldn't have existed but a lot of the info would still be out there.
Again, just pondering.....
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