In addition to public declarations of who we're ignoring, I'd like to recommend a public record be kept of who:
- we don't ignore
- who we like
- who we don't like
- who we might like if they weren't so weird
- who we read, but only to the 2nd or 3rd paragraph
- who we would read if they'd ever post but they don't
- who we wouldn't read if h-ll froze over but don't actually have on "Ignore"
I think knowing this information before I even begin to read anything on GS would help a lot and go a long way towards building communication, trust and respect.
I am very sorry to hear that, Excathedra. I wasn't my experience. I am no fan of TWI. I just can't throw it all out since it didn't totally wreck my like.
It didn't wreck my life either, dooj. I even believe God wanted me there...for a time, though I overstayed my welcome so to speak, but that's another topic.
For me the only answer was to throw it all out, every bit of it. The deeper I looked the more I realized it was tainted. I contained "leaven" and plenty of it. Heck it was leaven. I had nothing to lose by excising the whole mess and starting fresh. I turned to God to paint how my Christianity would look. Sure, a number of true things came back, but they came to me untainted, from the fountain Himself. Why draw from a fountain that gives forth sweet & bitter?
There's nothing to fear in chucking it all. There's everything to fear by holding on to the "concept". Lots of bad apples lurking in that basket. Are you sure you can excise each one? And even if you can, is it okay that the source of what you believe is that unholy, corrupt an evil mess that we've all left?
I knew that the minute I saw the title of this thread!
Nothing like putting the stick in, and stirring things up.
Doojable -- Mike (the originator of the thread you mentioned) has said exactly what WordWolf stated:
Mike believes the Bible is NOT God's Word.
Mike believes the PFAL COLLATERALS are God's Word.
Mike believes that Jesus is very interested in PFAL.
Mike believes Jesus appointed VPW the spokesman for Jesus.
Mike believes Jesus told him this.
Mike has said that when Jesus Christ returns,
he will be holding a copy of the Orange PFAL Book
AND be TEACHING YOU from it.
Mike cannot be talked to about God's Word, if you don't include the pfal series. He doesn't listen to opposing points of view. I've offered to talk to him, pray for him, etc. ad in finitum, and that does not work either.
*Mastering pfal* is what he promotes, and all of us were once into that up to our necks, and are now sick of it. Sure -- some found some good out of it (I did), but the overall consensus is that he is blowing smoke from a non-existant pipe.
Most of his posts are addressed to OLG's, following TVT, and refusing to come to his *Table of Challenge*.
If you don't know what that means, then go back, and read the 19,000 pages of the original thread (I'm being facetious here), and you will get an idea.
Hey Socks -- I'm ready to get yuckalacious too!!! :dance:
(don't look for me at Heidi's though -- I wouldn't want to be confused with one of the *staff* there!!
Ok I confess - I knew what I was getting into - I expected a healthy discussion. I had seen some posts of this nature but they were too old (said that already) Don't hate me for wanting to weigh in. ;) ;)
I am not clear how anyone can think that PFAL is a substitute for the Word. I used to get really into word studies - and I finally had to put them down - for years. I had gotten too deep into study and had forgotten how to deal with people.
So Mike those who agree with him, here's my once and for all..... stop putting all your energy into the intermediate step. It was a class, not the Word of God Himself. You would really be surprised how many Christains do just fine and even better than we do knowing much less. Maybe even because they know less.
All that book knowledge just became another means of hurting people in the end. You can't help people by just reading how to study something. You have to be able to feel, empathize, sympathize - that is something God can teach you. I'm sure you know this - and you didn't need a class to teach it to you.
... That is ONE BIG PROBLEM with going "back to PFAL", not enough ESTEEM for our Lord and Savior. ...
Shame , shame[/size][/color]
Bliss, among other things said about Jesus in PFAL, is that Jesus is PERFECT.
I think there is hardly any greater esteem we humans may give someone.
Just for the record, since I saw it in WW's post, whom I do read and whom I do respect, I have Mike and Allan set to be ignored, have recently added OM and am currently considering adding yet one more poster to that setting. I happen to LOVE having that option! I can't recommend it highly enough!
Why should it matter to me if someone is ignoring me? I choose to correspond with those who want to correspond with me. I certainly don't waste my time worrying about or hanging around people who don't like me - it just frustrates both of us.
I happen to like Belle. I just don't agree with everything she believes.
I hope she takes me off ignore, because I think she should read what I write.
She will learn, regardless of what I write/believe is right or wrong.
Saying it and believing it Oldies are two different things. Jesus Christ being "perfect" should have caused some praise for him out of peoples mouths, but it ended up just being another "buzz word".
... Why draw from a fountain that gives forth sweet & bitter? ...
What you suggest is that we should learn only from God and Jesus, directly.
Saying it and believing it Oldies are two different things. Jesus Christ being "perfect" should have caused some praise for him out of peoples mouths, but it ended up just being another "buzz word".
IMO
Believing it in your heart, is what is most important.
In my mind, VPW should be called "The Stealer" instead of "The Teacher". Why some people worship that guy is beyond me. People tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themselves, their family, or friends.
A thief is a thief is a thief. It doesn't matter what he steals (an idea, a melody, a passage in a book, a whole book, a watermelon, money, electricty, a standup comedy routine, a shirt from the dryer, etc). VPW stole his material from someone else. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't license it , he didn't ask permission, he took text without asking, passed it off as his own, and made money from it. Therefore he is a thief. VPW IS A THIEF !
Also what he stole are the works of other men so its not like he broke into some DaVinci
Code type hiding place and took the "originals" (I wish you could see it in the original kids - Sure Vic, I wish you could have seen it too). VPW's theft was dead wrong but what I'm pointing out is that who the heck ever said that what he stole was "god breathed" ? He copped material that was out of the mainstream with the hopes that no one would ever notice.
Okay so lastly, VPW bought his Phd from a diploma mill so he never earned his Phd nor did he do the research necessary to get it. Like most men eager to take the fast track to credibility he took shortcuts which would have gotten him expelled from *any* legitamate
institution of higher learning. The fact that a person (or two here in this thread) don't like this is irrelevant.
His *shortcomings* are highly relevant because they soundly condemn him as being completely unworthey of being a minister, and destroy his credibility as a christian leader, or even someone that should be trusted.
Scriptures tell us clearly to avoid those such as he.
On the other hand one MUST dismiss his *shortcomings* in order to give credence to his teachings.
*shortcomings* is such a pretty word for regularly indulging in being drunk, letcherous, visciously cruel adulterous, seducing, raping, being greedy, belligerant and just plain ornery
I say yes--I expect for God to show us what His Truth is. John 16:7-15 was twisted by lcm to prove what the epistles teach us---but neglected to show us how God can and will teach us what we need to know when we need to. Our Comforter is to lead us into all truth, not a man and not a class!
John 16:7-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove F31 the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
I think that's fine, as long as what God shows via The Comforter doesn't contradict the written revelation of the holy spirit, the Comforter, that has already been revealed.
That was the beauty of much of PFAL...
Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today.
P.S.: Where Mike and I part company: Mike believes that all of PFAL is perfect..., God-Breathed.
Whereas I believe there is room for error.
So who's correct?
I think it all goes back to the rightly-divided Word.
When and where it is rightly divided..it is truth.
When and where it is wrongly divided, it is error.
Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today.
>>
So you say and you say it on the authority of a plagiarist. The so called Law of Believing
from Session One of the Foundational class simply does not work and , furthermore, was a concept appropriated from 50s pop pyschology (Peale, Carengie, Nightingale, Maltz), which at that time was used primarily to motivate salesmen. The LOB was VPW's attempt to graft motivational pep talk onto the Bible. It was flawed then and it is flawed now and the LOB was the foundation of the Foundational class so what does one make of the rest of it ? Its a hodgepodge of various ideas with a large part of the RTHS content which we know was stolen. Again, no one can even say that which was stolen was even that "right on" so I don't know why you keep claiming that it was.
Oldiesman said:
<<
I think his shortcomings are irrelevant to this discussion.
<<
Oh well I'm sure you do because it lets you conveniently avoid having to discuss the lack of character exhibited by VPW as well as his unethical bheavior, and tendency to steal material and pass it off as his own.
Speaking in general here, I think it was Raf who said something to the effect of isn't it odd
how people have an excellent memory for centuries old crimes of the Catholic church yet seem to forget about decades old problems with VPW's behavior and "practices" ?
... Again, no one can even say that which was stolen was even that "right on" so I don't know why you keep claiming that it was.
Diazbro,
Is the following excerpt from PFAL, right on?
Romans tells how it is possible for a man who is dead in trespasses and sins and without God and without hope to be made alive.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
What faith? The faith of Jesus Christ. This faith comes when the man of body and soul hears the Word of God and believes.
Romans 10:9:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
What is it to "confess it with thy mouth"? It is to say it. Does one have to say it at an alter? Romans 10 does not say that. But, could one confess Jesus as his Lord at an alter? It does not say where one has to confess Jesus as Lord: the Bible simply says to confess. Does a person have to say it out loud? Romans 10 does not say so; it is possible to confess the Lord Jesus Christ silently without making an audible sound.
"Confess with thy mouth" does not say confess one's sins. If it had said "confess your sins," salvation would be of works; and we are not saved by works, but by grace. A man does not confess his sins; he confesses the Savior from sin, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I wonder how many thousands of people believe that they are born again of God's spirit but are not. They may have a feeling on the inside that they are saved, but a feeling does not save them. A person is saved by being born again of God's Spirit. Feelings may come and go, but the Word of God lives and abides forever. I could go to an altar, cry out all my sins, and get a good feeling. But a person can get that same good feeling on a psychiatrist's couch. We are not saved by feeling, we are saved by doing what The Word says. It says "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus." That is, say, "Jesus, you are Lord in my life." Who has been lord as long as a person is just body and soul? The person himself. But now that person is going to change lordships when he confesses with his mouth a new Lord -- Jesus Christ.
That is what is says, but that is not all. Romans 10:9 further says, "and shalt believe in thine heart." The heart is the seat of the personal life; today we would say, "Believe with all your mind, all your strength, every ounce of your being." What is a person to believe? That Jesus Christ is the greatest prophet of all time? No. The Word says, "believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead." One must confess with his mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in the innermost part of his being that God raised Him from the dead; then a man shall -- absolutely, unquestionably -- be saved. When? Not when he dies, but right when he confesses Jesus as Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead.
Of all the great religious leaders there is only one who has been raised from the dead and that is Jesus Christ. This is the proof that He is God's only begotten Son. Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe that He is your Lord? Have you confessed it with your mouth? The Word says that you are saved.
Romans 10:10:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The moment I fulfill these two requirements, I am born again of God's Spirit. This is eternal life. This is such a tremendous truth that it is almost unbelievable; but I do believe it because God's Word is true and abides forever. Now I am His son for I have confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus and I have believed that God raised him from the dead.
The moment a person confesses with his mouth Jesus as Lord that person is converted, saved, born again. A man can be a natural man of body and soul one minute; but as he hears the Word of God and believes to the point that he says, "Jesus is Lord of my life and I know God raised Him from the dead," he is born again of God's Spirit. That person has instantly changed lords; he is now on the way to heaven and all hell cannot stop him from going because he is a son of God having Christ in him. He has eternal life. He is no longer a natural man because he has received the spirit from God.
My my..so then even the Kenneth Copelands and Joyce Meyers and that dude that looks like a fat black version of Butterbean are 'plagiarists' seeing as most of their stuff comes from Billy Braham, Oral Roberts etc.. ??!! And they don't often refer to their 'sources' either !
Come on people..give some credit where credit is due, most of you haven't thrown away even half of what you learnt because of Vic.
And don't give me any of that rubbish about a lot of 'it' being out there in other churches..it isn't, o.k.
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likeaneagle
hello- I think PFAL has more depth to be learned but at the same I feel I have out grown it.
So we are speaking of mastery..God fills the gaps..he promised it.
I am TWI I and TWI III...I Think, so I get a little lost in the hoopla of the things.
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socks
In addition to public declarations of who we're ignoring, I'd like to recommend a public record be kept of who:
- we don't ignore
- who we like
- who we don't like
- who we might like if they weren't so weird
- who we read, but only to the 2nd or 3rd paragraph
- who we would read if they'd ever post but they don't
- who we wouldn't read if h-ll froze over but don't actually have on "Ignore"
I think knowing this information before I even begin to read anything on GS would help a lot and go a long way towards building communication, trust and respect.
All in favor say "YUK!!!"
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excathedra
yuk yuk 2nd or 3rd paragraph ??????????????? yuk yuk maximus
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Belle
Socks, only if we don't have to master it or give 15% of our income to those we don't ignore.... :P
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penguin
My reaction to mastering PFAL.
I am going to try to just read the Bible for once.
Thanks
Now you can go back to your topic.
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TheEvan
It didn't wreck my life either, dooj. I even believe God wanted me there...for a time, though I overstayed my welcome so to speak, but that's another topic.
For me the only answer was to throw it all out, every bit of it. The deeper I looked the more I realized it was tainted. I contained "leaven" and plenty of it. Heck it was leaven. I had nothing to lose by excising the whole mess and starting fresh. I turned to God to paint how my Christianity would look. Sure, a number of true things came back, but they came to me untainted, from the fountain Himself. Why draw from a fountain that gives forth sweet & bitter?
There's nothing to fear in chucking it all. There's everything to fear by holding on to the "concept". Lots of bad apples lurking in that basket. Are you sure you can excise each one? And even if you can, is it okay that the source of what you believe is that unholy, corrupt an evil mess that we've all left?
Just another perspective to consider...
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socks
Exskeeter, your yuks maximus are an easy read. Post more!
Let's get yukalicious!
But I digress.
Belle, use that 15% at Heidi's where you can apply yourself with vigor to Mastering .... ..oh, wrong thread!
Sorry! 
Better leave!
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Raf
If WordWolf was quoting Mike correctly, Mike said it should be clear who's ignoring whom. I just wanted to make it clear.
Luvya excy!
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dmiller
I knew that the minute I saw the title of this thread!
Nothing like putting the stick in, and stirring things up.
Doojable -- Mike (the originator of the thread you mentioned) has said exactly what WordWolf stated:
Mike cannot be talked to about God's Word, if you don't include the pfal series. He doesn't listen to opposing points of view. I've offered to talk to him, pray for him, etc. ad in finitum, and that does not work either.
*Mastering pfal* is what he promotes, and all of us were once into that up to our necks, and are now sick of it. Sure -- some found some good out of it (I did), but the overall consensus is that he is blowing smoke from a non-existant pipe.
Most of his posts are addressed to OLG's, following TVT, and refusing to come to his *Table of Challenge*.
If you don't know what that means, then go back, and read the 19,000 pages of the original thread (I'm being facetious here), and you will get an idea.
Hey Socks -- I'm ready to get yuckalacious too!!!
:dance: 
(don't look for me at Heidi's though -- I wouldn't want to be confused with one of the *staff* there!!
:D :D :D
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doojable
Ok I confess - I knew what I was getting into - I expected a healthy discussion. I had seen some posts of this nature but they were too old (said that already) Don't hate me for wanting to weigh in. ;) ;)
I am not clear how anyone can think that PFAL is a substitute for the Word. I used to get really into word studies - and I finally had to put them down - for years. I had gotten too deep into study and had forgotten how to deal with people.
So Mike those who agree with him, here's my once and for all..... stop putting all your energy into the intermediate step. It was a class, not the Word of God Himself. You would really be surprised how many Christains do just fine and even better than we do knowing much less. Maybe even because they know less.
All that book knowledge just became another means of hurting people in the end. You can't help people by just reading how to study something. You have to be able to feel, empathize, sympathize - that is something God can teach you. I'm sure you know this - and you didn't need a class to teach it to you.
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Raf
Maybe they (other Christians) know more, but in our ignorance we don't see it.
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oldiesman
Bliss, among other things said about Jesus in PFAL, is that Jesus is PERFECT.
I think there is hardly any greater esteem we humans may give someone.
I happen to like Belle. I just don't agree with everything she believes.
I hope she takes me off ignore, because I think she should read what I write.
She will learn, regardless of what I write/believe is right or wrong.
I learn from her.
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bliss
Saying it and believing it Oldies are two different things. Jesus Christ being "perfect" should have caused some praise for him out of peoples mouths, but it ended up just being another "buzz word".
IMO
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oldiesman
What you suggest is that we should learn only from God and Jesus, directly.
Believing it in your heart, is what is most important.
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diazbro
A few things.....
In my mind, VPW should be called "The Stealer" instead of "The Teacher". Why some people worship that guy is beyond me. People tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themselves, their family, or friends.
A thief is a thief is a thief. It doesn't matter what he steals (an idea, a melody, a passage in a book, a whole book, a watermelon, money, electricty, a standup comedy routine, a shirt from the dryer, etc). VPW stole his material from someone else. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't license it , he didn't ask permission, he took text without asking, passed it off as his own, and made money from it. Therefore he is a thief. VPW IS A THIEF !
Also what he stole are the works of other men so its not like he broke into some DaVinci
Code type hiding place and took the "originals" (I wish you could see it in the original kids - Sure Vic, I wish you could have seen it too). VPW's theft was dead wrong but what I'm pointing out is that who the heck ever said that what he stole was "god breathed" ? He copped material that was out of the mainstream with the hopes that no one would ever notice.
Okay so lastly, VPW bought his Phd from a diploma mill so he never earned his Phd nor did he do the research necessary to get it. Like most men eager to take the fast track to credibility he took shortcuts which would have gotten him expelled from *any* legitamate
institution of higher learning. The fact that a person (or two here in this thread) don't like this is irrelevant.
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oldiesman
Just because VP learned from many other men, doesn't guarantee one way or the other that what he learned and taught was true or false.
What he taught (PFAL) should stand on its own and be believed or rejected on its own.
Once again, I think you (and others) are allowing the sins of Wierwille to determine whether what he taught is true or false.
I think his shortcomings are irrelevant to this discussion.
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George Aar
I'm gonna master the works of Mr. Wierwille right after I get done mastering the principles set forth on the label of Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap...
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rascal
His *shortcomings* are highly relevant because they soundly condemn him as being completely unworthey of being a minister, and destroy his credibility as a christian leader, or even someone that should be trusted.
Scriptures tell us clearly to avoid those such as he.
On the other hand one MUST dismiss his *shortcomings* in order to give credence to his teachings.
*shortcomings* is such a pretty word for regularly indulging in being drunk, letcherous, visciously cruel adulterous, seducing, raping, being greedy, belligerant and just plain ornery
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penguin
Oldies,
I say yes--I expect for God to show us what His Truth is. John 16:7-15 was twisted by lcm to prove what the epistles teach us---but neglected to show us how God can and will teach us what we need to know when we need to. Our Comforter is to lead us into all truth, not a man and not a class!
John 16:7-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove F31 the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
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oldiesman
I think that's fine, as long as what God shows via The Comforter doesn't contradict the written revelation of the holy spirit, the Comforter, that has already been revealed.
That was the beauty of much of PFAL...
Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today.
P.S.: Where Mike and I part company: Mike believes that all of PFAL is perfect..., God-Breathed.
Whereas I believe there is room for error.
So who's correct?
I think it all goes back to the rightly-divided Word.
When and where it is rightly divided..it is truth.
When and where it is wrongly divided, it is error.
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diazbro
Oldiesman said:
>>
Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today.
>>
So you say and you say it on the authority of a plagiarist. The so called Law of Believing
from Session One of the Foundational class simply does not work and , furthermore, was a concept appropriated from 50s pop pyschology (Peale, Carengie, Nightingale, Maltz), which at that time was used primarily to motivate salesmen. The LOB was VPW's attempt to graft motivational pep talk onto the Bible. It was flawed then and it is flawed now and the LOB was the foundation of the Foundational class so what does one make of the rest of it ? Its a hodgepodge of various ideas with a large part of the RTHS content which we know was stolen. Again, no one can even say that which was stolen was even that "right on" so I don't know why you keep claiming that it was.
Oldiesman said:
<<
I think his shortcomings are irrelevant to this discussion.
<<
Oh well I'm sure you do because it lets you conveniently avoid having to discuss the lack of character exhibited by VPW as well as his unethical bheavior, and tendency to steal material and pass it off as his own.
Speaking in general here, I think it was Raf who said something to the effect of isn't it odd
how people have an excellent memory for centuries old crimes of the Catholic church yet seem to forget about decades old problems with VPW's behavior and "practices" ?
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oldiesman
Diazbro,
Is the following excerpt from PFAL, right on?
Victor Paul Wierwille
PFAL
Part IV -- The New Birth
Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed
Pgs. 295-98
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Allan
My my..so then even the Kenneth Copelands and Joyce Meyers and that dude that looks like a fat black version of Butterbean are 'plagiarists' seeing as most of their stuff comes from Billy Braham, Oral Roberts etc.. ??!! And they don't often refer to their 'sources' either !
Come on people..give some credit where credit is due, most of you haven't thrown away even half of what you learnt because of Vic.
And don't give me any of that rubbish about a lot of 'it' being out there in other churches..it isn't, o.k.
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oldiesman
It certainly wasn't there in the RC church when I needed it over 30 years ago, that's for sure.
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