At the end of you post you wrote: “Oldiesman, I’ve seen enough of Mike’s heart to know who’s works he’s magnifying.”
I object! You stepped into the middle of a food fight and saw only a few of my 4000 posts. Your first post was aimed square at me. I don’t think you picked a good time to judge hearts.
And I seriously object to your mixing soul and spirit in our discussion. It doesn’t confuse me but I think it does confuse others.
Here you do this mixing again: “Accusation, fault finding and laying guilt are not sonship rights and God doesn’t use them to motivate his children to know his Word. In fact, he gave his son so that we no longer have to reap the consequences of sin and guilt. Remember Romans – Shall Christ lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?”
In my admittedly harsh remarks in posts above to you I said you fell short of my standards of who I should trust to handle an ADAN passage. I said nothing of you falling short righteousness wise.
***
You wrote: “Mike, you compared me to Craig Martindale. It’s interesting to me how guilt and accusation rolls off your fingertips as easily as it rolled off his tongue.”
No I didn’t. What I rhetorically called “your disease” is what I compared to Craig’s "disease." I said “same disease.”
But you mention nothing here of my next line noting the differing symptoms, where I can add now (now that I’m calmer, and that foodfight seems to be over) I’m sure differ greatly from Craig’s symptoms.
***
You wrote: “...the biggest part of having a renewed mind lies in knowing who one is in Christ.”
I can agree.
And the biggest part of knowing who one is in Christ, FOR OLGs, is coming back to PFAL. That’s my assertion. And those OLGs who try it like it.
***
You wrote: “Your statements over the last couple pages make it quite clear that you still don’t have a clue what your identity is yet. If you did you would think twice about laying guilt at the feet of one whose life was paid for by the blood of Christ.”
I plead not guilty to your charge here.
It should be clear to you that the last couple of pages represent only about 1% of the last couple of days in my life. If you are hinting that you got revelation to see the other 99% you need to re-calibrate your operation of the revelation manifestations.
As I said above, I only judged you in the category of handling an ADAN passage. I cited proof that we OLGs are ALL guilty of being poor PFAL students, so why SHOULD I trust you to adequately handle such a passage. I was in the middle of an argument that we needed to re-vamp everything, but you acted as if you’d just “minister to the situation.” I objected. If we don’t start at square one with PFAL we are not following the instructions of the man who taught us PFAL.
I do plead GUILTY to THIS charge of not properly following the instructions of our teacher.
I’ve always included myself in this boat of “OLG guilt” in all my posting here.
***
As to you again “ministering to me” about my identity, and ignoring my arguments, please don’t be offended, but I didn’t ask for you to minister to me. I don’t want a diagnosis from you, I want a discussion based on what I’m putting forth, not based on your hunches about what’s ailing me.
That was a big problem with many of you “simple non-leadership” Corps people. I don’t know HOW many times I sat down with leadership with a valid complaint about something in the ministry and they turned it around to make it seem like it was me that had a problem.
I’d sense that these leaders were not listening to me, so I’d step up my flow of details and dialog, only to see them glossing over their eyes and “asking Father” how to minister to me, completely ignoring everything I was saying.
How many others here ran into this problem with leadership before?
***
I don’t believe you’re a very simple guy. And your claim to not be a leader doesn’t fit with your walking right up to me and digging right in. You’re not an ordinary new person here. I even think you and I have talked before. Am I right?
The bottom line of my “charges” here is that we OLGs have not yet finished the class, and that there is much more in there for us. This is good news. This is where I stake my identity.
Your version, appears to say that hs and it`s life changing power is dependant on works....ie feeding the mind the word.
Right on Rascal.
Romans says we prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God by renewing the mind.
That is works...
Romans 13:14 "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ..."
That is works...
One renews his mind by putting in his mind that which God created in righteousness and then live it. When a person has done this, it is possible for him to walk by the power of God for now he has a mind coordinated and in harmony with his spirit.
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
And how do yo handle Ephesians 2:8-10 ?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Works are involved, but it's grace that God even ALLOWS us to work.
Before we have holy spirit, good words are impossible, but afterwards good works (especially working to know God's Word better) are required by God if we want to receive more salvation, not spiritual salvation, but in soul (mind) in body (healing).
It's useful for bodily healing if we do some good works for it (like sleep, food, medicine) but the REAL healer is God and every healing is still a gift from God.
I don`t think so Mike, I think that it sounds like an excuse made by folks who are decieved into thinking that they have the new birth by the recitation of a few verses for why they AREN`T changed dramatically on the inside.
Your version, appears to say that hs and it`s life changing power is dependant on works....ie feeding the mind the word.
Sounds pretty weak and inefectual to me if it can`t effect change for years untill certain criteria are met.
Simple Guy, great points concerning those verses, I never understood them in that light....wow
You and I have never talked Mike unless it was 25 years ago at ROA or something. And I didn't lie to you when I said I wasn't "ever really in a leadership position". I was a WOW family coordinator one year. Thats it, nothing higher. Frankly I don't really care whether you believe this.
As to the rest of your post, my responses to you were just that, responses. You escalated the rhetoric when I brought up Are the Dead Alive Now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're frustrated with me because I'm confident in what I have to say to you that's your problem. You still have a responsibility to accept reproof if there was any in it.
As to me mixing soul and spirit, I didn't. Once again, perhaps you should reread the posts to alleviate the confusion.
Dunno guys, I just know that we are told scripturally to identify what is inside one another by the fruit manifested period...
The indication being that the manifestation of the fruit is a direct result of the life impacting change that has happened when the new birth occurs.
NOT something which its strength is based on which verses we recite or what classes we have studied or what books we master.....
This call to *come back* to pfal strikes me as folks wanting us to spend the rest of our lives needlessly, ceaselessly persuing/earning/striving, yet never quite achieving something that God/Jesus has already accomplished and freely given.
It is hard to explain...... but as best as I can sum it up..... the genuine simply IS what it IS.... ....and the counterfit or wannabe is forever TRYING to be or pass itself off as what the genuine is.
Back to my bottom line, my GOOD NEWS bottom line: there's un-tapped treasure in written PFAL for OLGs. This should be good news, at least for OLGs who believe it and see it.
I'll accept your credentials as stated, but I've heard the arguments you set forth before from grads; they're in the wind.
If I jumped on you more than you are accustomed to, then I apologize. I kinda assumed you were ready for a slugfest like a lot of the others around me were, and we’re all used to it, ...somewhat.
If you did not see my plee (in my lengthy post just preceding your arrival) for a complete re-vamping of our handling of PFAL passages and topics, then I apologize again, for that. I assumed you had read it, and that’s why you singled me out for your first post.
But tell me, I’m dying to know. Had you ever seen those two quotes of Dr’s in his last magazine that both call for a theological makeover for every grad?
As an amateur historian I find it fascinating that with both Dr’s last spoken AND written communications with us, most of us never heard nor saw them.
If this was fiction I was writing, the chain of events I’ve documented from 1975 to 1985, my editor wouldn’t buy it. It would strain credibility of the fiction reader, that the venerated cult leader’s last recorded and written words just slipped through the cracks somehow. Any fiction editor would realize that can't happen in real life. It’s too implausible to happen in fiction, but it DID happen to US! This should get out spiritual attention!
I find it doubly astounding, that not only would these last words be ignored and lost 20 years ago, but bringing them up AGAIN strikes no chords of significance in most grads STILL, even today.
While I appreciate the seemingly civil tone of your last post, at this point I'm not interested in discussing with you your slant on what VPW meant in any context, final teaching or otherwise. You wondered why I initially started talking to you, you were the only thing on this site that got my attention, I've been reading PFAL for quite some time and recently pulled out the books yet again for some things I was studying in the Word. I have to admit the other posters have been warm and welcoming, I may continue to post here if for no reason than to get to know them. Raf made a good point about PFAL earlier that I liked, PFAL did direct us to God's Word.
With regard to this agenda I've seen in your posts since looking further here, as far as I'm concerned your credibility is shot and I'm not biting, I think there is too much of a hook in your words to do anything other than refute you - 2 Corinthians 4:2.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
From 1975-1985 Dr presents to leadership first, then everyone else, a project of mastering written PFAL. I have, and can again, produced the documentation in exact quotes and cited where in the public record I got it from.
I’ve done a poll with roughly 300 people in 8 years on grad awareness of Dr’s last teaching and in the non-Corps population 99% never, ever heard of it.
The number of people I’ve asked about Dr’s last written messages to us is far fewer, hence I ask now. But so far no any one I’ve asked recognizes that Dr said those two things twice in that last magazine. I’m talking about Dr decrying the “dark clouds” hanging over us and Dr calling for a theological makeover for everyone, twice each, IN THE SAME MAGAZINE, and all this was his last written communication to us.
Not even Dr’s call for a makeover, just these events of extreme spiritual slumber on the part of us OLGs (notice I plead guilty here myself) should lead us OLGs to the very humbling realization that we must have blown off one heck of a lot of spiritual wisdom and knowledge Dr was trying to impart to us at that time. THANK GOD he did so much in writing and on tape so that we OLGs can back track where we went wrong and what to correct.
Raf, you’re a reporter. Don’t you see a STORY in here!?
Ya know, after all of Smikeol's posts exhalting The Teacher and blowing off and regarding as unfit to 'teach the Word' any and all who 'defy Him', its only gonna be a matter of time before he goes apes**t whenever someone comes up with mocking cartoons depicting VPW.
Perhaps one depicting VPW w/ the golden idol of PFAL on top of his head?
This call to *come back* to pfal strikes me as folks wanting us to spend the rest of our lives needlessly, ceaselessly persuing/earning/striving, yet never quite achieving something that God/Jesus has already accomplished and freely given.
Rascal, I think that's a fitting end and reply to any and everything Mike posts.
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Mike
A simple guy,
At the end of you post you wrote: “Oldiesman, I’ve seen enough of Mike’s heart to know who’s works he’s magnifying.”
I object! You stepped into the middle of a food fight and saw only a few of my 4000 posts. Your first post was aimed square at me. I don’t think you picked a good time to judge hearts.
And I seriously object to your mixing soul and spirit in our discussion. It doesn’t confuse me but I think it does confuse others.
Here you do this mixing again: “Accusation, fault finding and laying guilt are not sonship rights and God doesn’t use them to motivate his children to know his Word. In fact, he gave his son so that we no longer have to reap the consequences of sin and guilt. Remember Romans – Shall Christ lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?”
In my admittedly harsh remarks in posts above to you I said you fell short of my standards of who I should trust to handle an ADAN passage. I said nothing of you falling short righteousness wise.
***
You wrote: “Mike, you compared me to Craig Martindale. It’s interesting to me how guilt and accusation rolls off your fingertips as easily as it rolled off his tongue.”
No I didn’t. What I rhetorically called “your disease” is what I compared to Craig’s "disease." I said “same disease.”
But you mention nothing here of my next line noting the differing symptoms, where I can add now (now that I’m calmer, and that foodfight seems to be over) I’m sure differ greatly from Craig’s symptoms.
***
You wrote: “...the biggest part of having a renewed mind lies in knowing who one is in Christ.”
I can agree.
And the biggest part of knowing who one is in Christ, FOR OLGs, is coming back to PFAL. That’s my assertion. And those OLGs who try it like it.
***
You wrote: “Your statements over the last couple pages make it quite clear that you still don’t have a clue what your identity is yet. If you did you would think twice about laying guilt at the feet of one whose life was paid for by the blood of Christ.”
I plead not guilty to your charge here.
It should be clear to you that the last couple of pages represent only about 1% of the last couple of days in my life. If you are hinting that you got revelation to see the other 99% you need to re-calibrate your operation of the revelation manifestations.
As I said above, I only judged you in the category of handling an ADAN passage. I cited proof that we OLGs are ALL guilty of being poor PFAL students, so why SHOULD I trust you to adequately handle such a passage. I was in the middle of an argument that we needed to re-vamp everything, but you acted as if you’d just “minister to the situation.” I objected. If we don’t start at square one with PFAL we are not following the instructions of the man who taught us PFAL.
I do plead GUILTY to THIS charge of not properly following the instructions of our teacher.
I’ve always included myself in this boat of “OLG guilt” in all my posting here.
***
As to you again “ministering to me” about my identity, and ignoring my arguments, please don’t be offended, but I didn’t ask for you to minister to me. I don’t want a diagnosis from you, I want a discussion based on what I’m putting forth, not based on your hunches about what’s ailing me.
That was a big problem with many of you “simple non-leadership” Corps people. I don’t know HOW many times I sat down with leadership with a valid complaint about something in the ministry and they turned it around to make it seem like it was me that had a problem.
I’d sense that these leaders were not listening to me, so I’d step up my flow of details and dialog, only to see them glossing over their eyes and “asking Father” how to minister to me, completely ignoring everything I was saying.
How many others here ran into this problem with leadership before?
***
I don’t believe you’re a very simple guy. And your claim to not be a leader doesn’t fit with your walking right up to me and digging right in. You’re not an ordinary new person here. I even think you and I have talked before. Am I right?
The bottom line of my “charges” here is that we OLGs have not yet finished the class, and that there is much more in there for us. This is good news. This is where I stake my identity.
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oldiesman
Right on Rascal.
Romans says we prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God by renewing the mind.
That is works...
Romans 13:14 "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ..."
That is works...
Victor Paul WierwillePower For Abundant Living
Page 329
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Mike
rascal,
How do you handle Philippians 2:12 ?
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
And how do yo handle Ephesians 2:8-10 ?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Works are involved, but it's grace that God even ALLOWS us to work.
Before we have holy spirit, good words are impossible, but afterwards good works (especially working to know God's Word better) are required by God if we want to receive more salvation, not spiritual salvation, but in soul (mind) in body (healing).
It's useful for bodily healing if we do some good works for it (like sleep, food, medicine) but the REAL healer is God and every healing is still a gift from God.
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CM
most excellent post rascal
the Holy Spirit
the new birth
affects everything in you
what a person does with it
that's another story....
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oldiesman
Golly, wouldn't it be great if God gave us a perfectly renewed mind, as well?
We wouldn't have to do anything except let it run on automatic... :)
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A simple guy
You and I have never talked Mike unless it was 25 years ago at ROA or something. And I didn't lie to you when I said I wasn't "ever really in a leadership position". I was a WOW family coordinator one year. Thats it, nothing higher. Frankly I don't really care whether you believe this.
As to the rest of your post, my responses to you were just that, responses. You escalated the rhetoric when I brought up Are the Dead Alive Now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're frustrated with me because I'm confident in what I have to say to you that's your problem. You still have a responsibility to accept reproof if there was any in it.
As to me mixing soul and spirit, I didn't. Once again, perhaps you should reread the posts to alleviate the confusion.
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rascal
Dunno guys, I just know that we are told scripturally to identify what is inside one another by the fruit manifested period...
The indication being that the manifestation of the fruit is a direct result of the life impacting change that has happened when the new birth occurs.
NOT something which its strength is based on which verses we recite or what classes we have studied or what books we master.....
This call to *come back* to pfal strikes me as folks wanting us to spend the rest of our lives needlessly, ceaselessly persuing/earning/striving, yet never quite achieving something that God/Jesus has already accomplished and freely given.
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rascal
It is hard to explain...... but as best as I can sum it up..... the genuine simply IS what it IS.... ....and the counterfit or wannabe is forever TRYING to be or pass itself off as what the genuine is.
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Mike
A simple guy,
Back to my bottom line, my GOOD NEWS bottom line: there's un-tapped treasure in written PFAL for OLGs. This should be good news, at least for OLGs who believe it and see it.
I'll accept your credentials as stated, but I've heard the arguments you set forth before from grads; they're in the wind.
If I jumped on you more than you are accustomed to, then I apologize. I kinda assumed you were ready for a slugfest like a lot of the others around me were, and we’re all used to it, ...somewhat.
If you did not see my plee (in my lengthy post just preceding your arrival) for a complete re-vamping of our handling of PFAL passages and topics, then I apologize again, for that. I assumed you had read it, and that’s why you singled me out for your first post.
But tell me, I’m dying to know. Had you ever seen those two quotes of Dr’s in his last magazine that both call for a theological makeover for every grad?
As an amateur historian I find it fascinating that with both Dr’s last spoken AND written communications with us, most of us never heard nor saw them.
If this was fiction I was writing, the chain of events I’ve documented from 1975 to 1985, my editor wouldn’t buy it. It would strain credibility of the fiction reader, that the venerated cult leader’s last recorded and written words just slipped through the cracks somehow. Any fiction editor would realize that can't happen in real life. It’s too implausible to happen in fiction, but it DID happen to US! This should get out spiritual attention!
I find it doubly astounding, that not only would these last words be ignored and lost 20 years ago, but bringing them up AGAIN strikes no chords of significance in most grads STILL, even today.
A few OLGs see this. Just a few, so far.
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Raf
Presented as "fact," even fewer people are buying it.
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A simple guy
Mike,
While I appreciate the seemingly civil tone of your last post, at this point I'm not interested in discussing with you your slant on what VPW meant in any context, final teaching or otherwise. You wondered why I initially started talking to you, you were the only thing on this site that got my attention, I've been reading PFAL for quite some time and recently pulled out the books yet again for some things I was studying in the Word. I have to admit the other posters have been warm and welcoming, I may continue to post here if for no reason than to get to know them. Raf made a good point about PFAL earlier that I liked, PFAL did direct us to God's Word.
With regard to this agenda I've seen in your posts since looking further here, as far as I'm concerned your credibility is shot and I'm not biting, I think there is too much of a hook in your words to do anything other than refute you - 2 Corinthians 4:2.
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Mike
A simple guy,
My words are nothing. I point to very special words when I point to written PFAL (magazine included) because they are words that God inspired.
You still didn't answer me if those two magazine quotes of Dr's were new to you. I'm just takig a poll.
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CM
there ya go oldies, show us what it means...
nah you can't do it huh,
might want to notice it doesn't mention Spirit
it don't need to, the ones hearing
knew what he was talking about
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Mike
Raf,
Here are the facts I refer to here:
From 1975-1985 Dr presents to leadership first, then everyone else, a project of mastering written PFAL. I have, and can again, produced the documentation in exact quotes and cited where in the public record I got it from.
I’ve done a poll with roughly 300 people in 8 years on grad awareness of Dr’s last teaching and in the non-Corps population 99% never, ever heard of it.
The number of people I’ve asked about Dr’s last written messages to us is far fewer, hence I ask now. But so far no any one I’ve asked recognizes that Dr said those two things twice in that last magazine. I’m talking about Dr decrying the “dark clouds” hanging over us and Dr calling for a theological makeover for everyone, twice each, IN THE SAME MAGAZINE, and all this was his last written communication to us.
Not even Dr’s call for a makeover, just these events of extreme spiritual slumber on the part of us OLGs (notice I plead guilty here myself) should lead us OLGs to the very humbling realization that we must have blown off one heck of a lot of spiritual wisdom and knowledge Dr was trying to impart to us at that time. THANK GOD he did so much in writing and on tape so that we OLGs can back track where we went wrong and what to correct.
Raf, you’re a reporter. Don’t you see a STORY in here!?
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A simple guy
Mike,
Taking a poll?
I doubt if anything you say here is that innocuous.
I already told you, I'm not biting, give it a rest.
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GarthP2000
Ya know, after all of Smikeol's posts exhalting The Teacher and blowing off and regarding as unfit to 'teach the Word' any and all who 'defy Him', its only gonna be a matter of time before he goes apes**t whenever someone comes up with mocking cartoons depicting VPW.
Perhaps one depicting VPW w/ the golden idol of PFAL on top of his head?
..... Hhmmm, that gives me an idea. ........
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Modaustin
Take your fight to the new thread.
For everyone else, carry on.
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markomalley
Carry on?
Carry on?
This thread was a goner until our favorite pfal-o-phile decided to resurrect it from the dead.....5 bloody pages ago!
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rhino
Carrion
make up your own piffle analogy
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Belle
ROFLMAO!! Garth & Rhino - you two are priceless!!
Rascal, I think that's a fitting end and reply to any and everything Mike posts.
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