I am not Penguin, but I see how that some could feel that way. I think it comes from not separating God and man. And here is why, God has given me no cause to distrust Him. People are People they have their faults. I agree it was sad to see such kind people tossed by the wayside (no pun intended) But that had nothing to do with God. The Way is/was a group! programs were just that they have their pros and cons. They were at best man's attempt to reach people with the Good News of the Gospel that's all!
To me I find that God is still as faithful and trustworthy as He always was. People on the other hand it seems will at some point fail you. I wish it were different but it isn't ,at best we can strive to reflect the Christ in us as much as humanly possible.
With me, prayer has always been a constant. No matter how crazy it ever gets/got I can always pray. I'm not just talking about SIT; prayer with the understanding is good.
From my perspective it would always be a struggle to trust God. Because even to believe in God in any but the most vague way, you have to deny a whole lot of evidence that's constantly visible about how the world works.
Way too much struggle for me. I gave up a long time ago.
Trusting God to do what? Take care of me? Take care of my family? Pay my bills? I'd best do all that stuff myself if I want it done. I'm not saying I don't believe in God, but from everything I've seen, I've got to do my best myself to take care of me and my own.
Now trusting organized religion is another matter. In a word, no, I don't. Probably never will.
Penguin, I understand.... It is very hard to reconcile the seeming betrayal of our trust....there are so many questions.
How could God have been responsible for leading us somewhere that resulted in such misery?
How could God have allowed us to be so used and mistreated when we wanted to serve him?
How can we trust himnow when the first time resulted in such tragic circumstances?
How can we believe that he is there when the people who represented him were so cruel?
What is truth, now that we understand that so much of what were taught were lies?
If God led us to twi...who then led our sisters who were raped and our brothers who died?
Was the guy who witnessed to me working for God? When the person that someone else witnessed to was hurt beyond healing was that God who worked in him?
Was it God who worked in some of us? Does God work at all?
I have found a few answeres and understanding....but trust will never ever be easy, thanks to twi.
Evan probably had the best advice that I can think of. He said the following in a different thread:
It didn't wreck my life either, dooj. I even believe God wanted me there...for a time, though I overstayed my welcome so to speak, but that's another topic.
For me the only answer was to throw it all out, every bit of it. The deeper I looked the more I realized it was tainted. I contained "leaven" and plenty of it. Heck it was leaven. I had nothing to lose by excising the whole mess and starting fresh. I turned to God to paint how my Christianity would look. Sure, a number of true things came back, but they came to me untainted, from the fountain Himself. Why draw from a fountain that gives forth sweet & bitter?
There's nothing to fear in chucking it all. There's everything to fear by holding on to the "concept". Lots of bad apples lurking in that basket. Are you sure you can excise each one? And even if you can, is it okay that the source of what you believe is that unholy, corrupt an evil mess that we've all left?
Just another perspective to consider...
Like many of us (but not all, apparently), you apparently were burnt by TWI. For those who weren't, I say good for you...more power to you... But if you were burnt by TWI, approaching God using the paradigm put forward by TWI, using their doctrines and their behaviors and their practices, will probably only result in further bondage for you (again, I recognize that it works for some...and again, for those, good for you).
That's where Evan's advice comes in.
You said:
How many of you here are still struggling with trusting God again? I was thinking about all of us who made commitments (WOW,Way Corpse, Staff, Way Disciple, and the other programs) to who we thought were God's representatives only to be told we didn't measure up and that we needed to leave/be dropped etc.
It is sad that a beautiful desire to serve God and help others was trashed by twi when we were told we were not good enough. VP might have said he would take people with heart over people with ability, but in the latter days this was no longer the case. In fact, it was normally the opposite.
I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up.
(if this offends the reader's personal theology, my apologies. It is, after all, just IMHO)
TWI's god was judgemental. TWI's god was vindictive. Christianity's God is merciful. Christianity's God dispenses grace and forgiveness. There are many, many stories of where people served the god of TWI in order to be "good enough" or to "spiritually grow." Service to Christianty's God is done out of thankfulness and love...a response to grace already dispensed by God rather than a bargain in order to earn that grace.
It never ceases to give me sorrow when I read stories of people burnt by TWI. But I hope and pray that you can come to recognize that what you were taught to serve was not a reflection of actual Christianity.
quote: I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up.
Keep in mind that TWI rescued many of us from a perverse image of a wrathful God who'll send you to hell for things like smoking, drinking, dope, masturbating, etc. Many churches still promote this image of God. LCM might have tried to scare people but that's not the TWI I remember.
quote: I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up.
Keep in mind that TWI rescued many of us from a perverse image of a wrathful God who'll send you to hell for things like smoking, drinking, dope, masturbating, etc. Many churches still promote this image of God. LCM might have tried to scare people but that's not the TWI I remember.
Understand...
Two things in my previous post that I'd like to highlight in that context:
(again, I recognize that it works for some...and again, for those, good for you).
(if this offends the reader's personal theology, my apologies. It is, after all, just IMHO)
And then I believe that we'd agree on this: Christianity's God is merciful. Christianity's God dispenses grace and forgiveness. Service to Christianty's God is done out of thankfulness and love...a response to grace already dispensed by God.
Please do, Chef and please pray for us who are trying desperately to justify and to protect loved ones from doing those things we know to be wrong...particularly for those of us how try hard to stand up for our loved ones who enabled and recruited for vee pee.
I still struggle to trust God. What does that mean exactly? Mythreecents is right in what he says. I guess the difference is, I just can't give up.
In the scope of my life, I was involved with TWI for only like a fourth of it. Ok, I'm in my mid40's and I was involved for about 12 years, (ages 15 to 27) then left and went back to church, although a diffent one than that in which I was raised. I don't think TWI has that much to do with my struggle. It's just a matter of having faith in a faithless world. Ya know? No matter where we are in life, to believe and trust in an unseen yet very visible ( I know I'm contradicting myself) God and Saviour can't be easy. No matter what road we have travelled.
I am not Penguin, but I see how that some could feel that way. I think it comes from not separating God and man. And here is why, God has given me no cause to distrust Him. People are People they have their faults. I agree it was sad to see such kind people tossed by the wayside (no pun intended) But that had nothing to do with God. The Way is/was a group! programs were just that they have their pros and cons. They were at best man's attempt to reach people with the Good News of the Gospel that's all!
( To me I find that God is still as faithful and trustworthy as He always was. People on the other hand it seems will at some point fail you. I wish it were different but it isn't ,at best we can strive to reflect the Christ in us as much as humanly possible.)
I never had a problem trusting God. It was the people who were representing him I didn't trust. While I was in twi, I was always told that churches had NO integrity and sincerity, so that was really instilled in my mind when I left. I knew that God was always with me and that He would direct me to the right place, but I had to trust those who were dishing out the Word and that they were sincere and had integrity. It's been 14 yrs. and I still have some walls up when it comes to trust. I still see a lot of religous people that only show their Christ-like character if they know you are a Christain too, if they don't know.... then they treat you like garbage. THAT"S what really ticks me off and makes me doubt the sinerity and integrity of the hearts of people who claim to live by the Word of God...... :unsure: Oh how I miss those good friends who really spoke to me from the heart and whos intentions were of nothing else but good. Anyway.. that's my issue and i'm working on it daily and hope to see things in a different light some day :)
How many of you here are still struggling with trusting God again? I was thinking about all of us who made commitments (WOW,Way Corpse, Staff, Way Disciple, and the other programs) to who we thought were God's representatives only to be told we didn't measure up and that we needed to leave/be dropped etc.
It is sad that a beautiful desire to serve God and help others was trashed by twi when we were told we were not good enough. VP might have said he would take people with heart over people with ability, but in the latter days this was no longer the case. In fact, it was normally the opposite.
Anyone else have these issues? What have you done about it?
Yes my wife & I most definitely have these issues since departing from TWI post LCM’s 04/2000 ‘announcement’ which sounded all too familiar to the 1986-87 POP non-announcement. “Once burned, twice shy; twice burned, may wish to die.”
We feel that TWI has destroyed our ability to have a meaningful relationship with God. In fact, we don’t even know if God exists. In fact, we are not sure we now even care, even though we would like to care. We remain open minded but continue in our TWI-induced distrust of the entire ‘spiritual’ category.
I think that Mark O'Malley your comment about twi presenting a perverted image of God etc.. is pretty 'rich' don't you think coming from one who praises catholicism and its' beliefs !
Careful of those stones you're holding in your hand unless you plan on stepping out of that glasshouse.
I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up.
(if this offends the reader's personal theology, my apologies. It is, after all, just IMHO)
TWI's god was judgemental. TWI's god was vindictive. Christianity's God is merciful. Christianity's God dispenses grace and forgiveness. There are many, many stories of where people served the god of TWI in order to be "good enough" or to "spiritually grow." Service to Christianty's God is done out of thankfulness and love...a response to grace already dispensed by God rather than a bargain in order to earn that grace.
Penguin:
I was thinking about all of us who made commitments (WOW,Way Corpse, Staff, Way Disciple, and the other programs) to who we thought were God's representatives only to be told we didn't measure up and that we needed to leave/be dropped etc.
Mark nails it here, Penguin, as do many others. The God we were taught in TWI was first loving, forgiving and all goodness and light, but the God he became as we took more and more classes, signed up for more and more responsibility out of a love for God and wanting to serve HIS people, is not a God any of us would have signed up for initially.
God became a perverted image of God in TWI slowly, over a period of time:
- First he wanted us to know more - to become experts at Greek, Hebrew, "rightly dividing the word" - This required time - lots and lots of time and money by way of classes, travelling to AC specials, travelling to classes on the field, special meetings, etc.
- Then he wanted us to give him more of our time - as HFC's, WC, WD, WOW, witnessing partners, etc....
- Then he wanted more of our money. 10% wasn't enough anymore; we were in the GRACE administration - we need to do MORE.
- Then we were reminded we were in the GRACE administration so we should be DOING more - doing more Better and longer than ever before.
The God TWI taught us (those of us under Craig's rule) was a selfish God, a judgemental God, a God who was never satisfied or happy with us. They didn't say "TWI wants your money" - "TWI wants your time" -
"TWI wants you to sell your house" - "TWI wants you to suck the MOG's d***"! It was always "GOD WANTS YOU TO......" - "GOD EXPECTS......" - "Don't you want to please GOD?"
Yes, it is really hard to get back to what God is supposed to be. Who he is supposed to be. We were taught a totally different God - our God, according to TWI was never satisfied and expected more of us than even our "earthly" fathers would dream of expecting of his children.
I guess the first step is to get rid of that image of God. To get back to the God who is all loving, all caring, wants only the best for his kids, especially forgiving and pleased to give us good, peaceable gifts. A calm, quiet God who doesn't spit in anyone's direction. A God who doesn't like a minister who yells and curses at his flock. A God who prefers a minister to truly care for his flock as if they are precious, delicate lambs. A God who really and truly only wants to love you and wants you to love him.
Maybe some time in the Gospels reading what Jesus taught about God would help. TWI only taught from the more clinical/historical sections and the sections where Jesus was mad or casting out spirits. Read the sweet parts, read the sweet lessons, read the peaceful sections. Those will sooth your soul and help you to get that mean, wooden spoon weilding God out of your mind. :)
It's basically exactly what Mark said, but in "mouth of the south" volume. :wub: You're awfully special, Penguin!! I hope that helps!
I agree with this. I haven't either. My *search* has always been for a more complete knowledge, a better way of doing things, better understanding of the scriptures, etc., so that I could do what was required of me -- and I looked to denominations to tell me how to accomplish that.
I've been in a lot of denominations before twi for exactly that reason.
I was in twi for that reason.
I left twi for that reason.
That reason still is with me today, though some of those denominations are not.
If I have had problems with ANY religious outfit, I have never laid the blame at God's door-step. As either Mark (or Evan) said:
"God got me into twi, and then got me out of it" (paraphrase).
God works with who He can, when He can, and wth -- sometimes that even includes cults like twi.
I have NO PROBLEM with God. It's the outfits that claim to represent Him that cause the problems.
Sunny, and David, that's all wonderful and great for you, but can you two see that you've gotten an honest question from someone who was tainted and abused spiritually in TWI? Can you see how your answers saying that you've never had this problem in your own personal life do nothing but make the seeker feel less than spiritual and even more lowly than TWI already did a good job of doing?]
This poor soul is asking HOW to trust God again. To hear that you never had the problem that he/she had is just validating what TWI under craig's rule taught. Big whoop if YOU'VE never experienced this question or situation. WHAT do you have to contribute to those who have? Your responses, although most likely true, provide no assurance or encouragement to those who have doubted God because of what they saw, learned, experienced and were taught in TWI.
I think that Mark O'Malley your comment about twi presenting a perverted image of God etc.. is pretty 'rich' don't you think coming from one who praises catholicism and its' beliefs !
Careful of those stones you're holding in your hand unless you plan on stepping out of that glasshouse.
] Well -- I'll tell ya, Allan.
Don't be too critical too fast, OK?
I was raised Catholic, left the church, joined a charismatic group they had going on in the 1970's, and whadda-ya-know --- they taught me how to speak in tongues.
Go figure, eh??
A *real live cult* like the RCC, teaching tongues.
Makes ya wanna go Hmmmm.
(They got interpretation totally wrong, but then again so did docvic.)
Now --- I don't agree with RCC doctrine (Sorry Mark, but that's the way it is for me), but you just can't blow them off as so much *riff-raff* because if you believe what you are saying Allan, God can (and does) work with anyone, regardless of denomination.
According to what you are saying about RCC -- answer me this. How is it they were able to teach me how to speak in tongues??
Sure -- they have doctrine I don't agree with. Sure they have practices that I don't condone. Given my personal beliefs, I would never be in a Catholic church again, but one fact remains ---
THEY TAUGHT ME HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES
Not docvic, but the RCC.
Allan -- I hear where you are coming from, but there is a big wide world out here, and (IMO) God can deal with it all.
Personally --- I don't think He limits Himself to one ministry over another.
Thanks for the very kind words. I placed Allan on 'ignore' a long time ago because of posts like the one you quoted...and the fact that he apparently feels forced to comment any time I say something about the Catholic Church (I think he is horrified by the fact that somebody on his discussion forum is not ashamed to be in that Church and is compelled to attempt to purge his board from impurities like me). The fact that you simply say been there, done that, not interested, thanks... is laudable. And I appreciate it.
] Now --- I don't agree with RCC doctrine (Sorry Mark, but that's the way it is for me), but you just can't blow them off as so much *riff-raff* because if you believe what you are saying Allan, God can (and does) work with anyone, regardless of denomination.
According to what you are saying about RCC -- answer me this. How is it they were able to teach me how to speak in tongues??
Sure -- they have doctrine I don't agree with. Sure they have practices that I don't condone. Given my personal beliefs, I would never be in a Catholic church again,
David,
I am not asking you to agree with Catholic doctrine. I am not asking you to agree with Catholic practices. I am not asking anybody to do so. And I am certainly not asking you or anybody else here who's an ex-Catholic to ever set foot in a Catholic church, much less to revert back to the Faith. As I' e said on other threads, are you doing something that works for you...that is bringing you into a closer relationship with God...great. I believe a key function of the Church Universal (i.e., that made up of ALL Christians) is to reveal Christ and to help is the formation of man into conformance with Christ. If what you're doing helps you in that fashion better than something else you've done, including the Catholic church, I'm very happy for you.
The only reason why I even mentioned the fact that I am Catholic, much less speak in positive terms of it, is that I finally got sick of Catholic-bashing (a la Allan) that was based on patently false information. I realize that the vast majority of people here do not agree with Catholic doctrine. Whether ex-Catholic or not. And I realize anything I say is not going to alter anybody's opinion one way or the other. Fine. But I would rather them not agree with what actually is Catholic doctrine rather than with something they were taught by a Protestant was Catholic doctrine. If they are going to disagree with Catholic practices (the liturgies, etc.), fine. But I would prefer them to be in disagreement about something that actually happens, vice something that has no resemblence to any church I've ever set foot in. Frankly, I have a lot of disagreements with things that happen in individual churches myself...and if somebody wishes to disagree with some news element or some politics involving the US Catholic bishops, they'd better be careful...because I'd likely agree with them. However, I will make sure that FACTS are available for consideration.
Anyway, I do appreciate your constructive comments. The fact that you, in no uncertain terms, have no interest whatsoever in ever returning to the Catholic Church, but are able and willing to do so, repeatedly, without insulting Catholics, is a class thing to do and is appreciated.
Hey Mark O, you are a class act. Your dignity and insight shine through in your posts. Glad that you don`t let a bully silence you.
Folks generally come in two catagories round here...(regardless of what their current belief system is)......those who participate and contribute, and those who simply stalk the forums looking for a way to attack and discredit.
The folks who feel compelled to slap a lable on you (or anyone) and then who use that as a basis attack are simply immature spiritually.
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WhiteDove
I am not Penguin, but I see how that some could feel that way. I think it comes from not separating God and man. And here is why, God has given me no cause to distrust Him. People are People they have their faults. I agree it was sad to see such kind people tossed by the wayside (no pun intended) But that had nothing to do with God. The Way is/was a group! programs were just that they have their pros and cons. They were at best man's attempt to reach people with the Good News of the Gospel that's all!
To me I find that God is still as faithful and trustworthy as He always was. People on the other hand it seems will at some point fail you. I wish it were different but it isn't ,at best we can strive to reflect the Christ in us as much as humanly possible.
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johniam
With me, prayer has always been a constant. No matter how crazy it ever gets/got I can always pray. I'm not just talking about SIT; prayer with the understanding is good.
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My3Cents
From my perspective it would always be a struggle to trust God. Because even to believe in God in any but the most vague way, you have to deny a whole lot of evidence that's constantly visible about how the world works.
Way too much struggle for me. I gave up a long time ago.
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Jim
Trusting God to do what? Take care of me? Take care of my family? Pay my bills? I'd best do all that stuff myself if I want it done. I'm not saying I don't believe in God, but from everything I've seen, I've got to do my best myself to take care of me and my own.
Now trusting organized religion is another matter. In a word, no, I don't. Probably never will.
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Vyctorya911
I have no problem trusting God. That's one thing I'll never give them the satisfaction of! I do have a problem trusting denominations & their leaders.
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rascal
Penguin, I understand.... It is very hard to reconcile the seeming betrayal of our trust....there are so many questions.
How could God have been responsible for leading us somewhere that resulted in such misery?
How could God have allowed us to be so used and mistreated when we wanted to serve him?
How can we trust himnow when the first time resulted in such tragic circumstances?
How can we believe that he is there when the people who represented him were so cruel?
What is truth, now that we understand that so much of what were taught were lies?
If God led us to twi...who then led our sisters who were raped and our brothers who died?
Was the guy who witnessed to me working for God? When the person that someone else witnessed to was hurt beyond healing was that God who worked in him?
Was it God who worked in some of us? Does God work at all?
I have found a few answeres and understanding....but trust will never ever be easy, thanks to twi.
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markomalley
Evan probably had the best advice that I can think of. He said the following in a different thread:
Like many of us (but not all, apparently), you apparently were burnt by TWI. For those who weren't, I say good for you...more power to you... But if you were burnt by TWI, approaching God using the paradigm put forward by TWI, using their doctrines and their behaviors and their practices, will probably only result in further bondage for you (again, I recognize that it works for some...and again, for those, good for you).
That's where Evan's advice comes in.
You said:
I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up.
(if this offends the reader's personal theology, my apologies. It is, after all, just IMHO)
TWI's god was judgemental. TWI's god was vindictive. Christianity's God is merciful. Christianity's God dispenses grace and forgiveness. There are many, many stories of where people served the god of TWI in order to be "good enough" or to "spiritually grow." Service to Christianty's God is done out of thankfulness and love...a response to grace already dispensed by God rather than a bargain in order to earn that grace.
It never ceases to give me sorrow when I read stories of people burnt by TWI. But I hope and pray that you can come to recognize that what you were taught to serve was not a reflection of actual Christianity.
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johniam
quote: I would submit that a commitment wasn't made to God...a commitment was made to a perverted image of God taught by TWI. And when those commitments were made in order to grow and develop into an image that is worthy of that perverted TWI image of God, you might never measure up.
Keep in mind that TWI rescued many of us from a perverse image of a wrathful God who'll send you to hell for things like smoking, drinking, dope, masturbating, etc. Many churches still promote this image of God. LCM might have tried to scare people but that's not the TWI I remember.
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markomalley
Understand...
Two things in my previous post that I'd like to highlight in that context:
And then I believe that we'd agree on this: Christianity's God is merciful. Christianity's God dispenses grace and forgiveness. Service to Christianty's God is done out of thankfulness and love...a response to grace already dispensed by God.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i say
just trust GOD
after all he always was and always will be God
twi as some of us thought was god but we were wrong
i will pray for all of us when i go to mass tommorow
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Belle
Please do, Chef and please pray for us who are trying desperately to justify and to protect loved ones from doing those things we know to be wrong...particularly for those of us how try hard to stand up for our loved ones who enabled and recruited for vee pee.
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ex10
penguin, I think I know how you feel.
I still struggle to trust God. What does that mean exactly? Mythreecents is right in what he says. I guess the difference is, I just can't give up.
In the scope of my life, I was involved with TWI for only like a fourth of it. Ok, I'm in my mid40's and I was involved for about 12 years, (ages 15 to 27) then left and went back to church, although a diffent one than that in which I was raised. I don't think TWI has that much to do with my struggle. It's just a matter of having faith in a faithless world. Ya know? No matter where we are in life, to believe and trust in an unseen yet very visible ( I know I'm contradicting myself) God and Saviour can't be easy. No matter what road we have travelled.
Merry Christmas.
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Sunnyfla
I never had a problem trusting God. It was the people who were representing him I didn't trust. While I was in twi, I was always told that churches had NO integrity and sincerity, so that was really instilled in my mind when I left. I knew that God was always with me and that He would direct me to the right place, but I had to trust those who were dishing out the Word and that they were sincere and had integrity. It's been 14 yrs. and I still have some walls up when it comes to trust. I still see a lot of religous people that only show their Christ-like character if they know you are a Christain too, if they don't know.... then they treat you like garbage. THAT"S what really ticks me off and makes me doubt the sinerity and integrity of the hearts of people who claim to live by the Word of God...... :unsure: Oh how I miss those good friends who really spoke to me from the heart and whos intentions were of nothing else but good. Anyway.. that's my issue and i'm working on it daily and hope to see things in a different light some day :)
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jkboehme
Per Penguin:
Yes my wife & I most definitely have these issues since departing from TWI post LCM’s 04/2000 ‘announcement’ which sounded all too familiar to the 1986-87 POP non-announcement. “Once burned, twice shy; twice burned, may wish to die.”
We feel that TWI has destroyed our ability to have a meaningful relationship with God. In fact, we don’t even know if God exists. In fact, we are not sure we now even care, even though we would like to care. We remain open minded but continue in our TWI-induced distrust of the entire ‘spiritual’ category.
Per Prospero of Shakespeare’s “The Tempest:”
You do look, my son, in a mov’d sort,
As if you were dismay’d. Be cheerful, sir
Our revels now are ended. These our
Actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air;
And, like the baseless fabric of this
Vision,
The cloud-capp’d towers, the great globe
Itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant
Faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such
Stuff
As dreams are made of, and our little
Life
Is rounded with sleep.
:(
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Allan
I think that Mark O'Malley your comment about twi presenting a perverted image of God etc.. is pretty 'rich' don't you think coming from one who praises catholicism and its' beliefs !
Careful of those stones you're holding in your hand unless you plan on stepping out of that glasshouse.
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Belle
Mark:
Penguin:Mark nails it here, Penguin, as do many others. The God we were taught in TWI was first loving, forgiving and all goodness and light, but the God he became as we took more and more classes, signed up for more and more responsibility out of a love for God and wanting to serve HIS people, is not a God any of us would have signed up for initially.
God became a perverted image of God in TWI slowly, over a period of time:
- First he wanted us to know more - to become experts at Greek, Hebrew, "rightly dividing the word" - This required time - lots and lots of time and money by way of classes, travelling to AC specials, travelling to classes on the field, special meetings, etc.
- Then he wanted us to give him more of our time - as HFC's, WC, WD, WOW, witnessing partners, etc....
- Then he wanted more of our money. 10% wasn't enough anymore; we were in the GRACE administration - we need to do MORE.
- Then we were reminded we were in the GRACE administration so we should be DOING more - doing more Better and longer than ever before.
The God TWI taught us (those of us under Craig's rule) was a selfish God, a judgemental God, a God who was never satisfied or happy with us. They didn't say "TWI wants your money" - "TWI wants your time" -
"TWI wants you to sell your house" - "TWI wants you to suck the MOG's d***"! It was always "GOD WANTS YOU TO......" - "GOD EXPECTS......" - "Don't you want to please GOD?"
Yes, it is really hard to get back to what God is supposed to be. Who he is supposed to be. We were taught a totally different God - our God, according to TWI was never satisfied and expected more of us than even our "earthly" fathers would dream of expecting of his children.
I guess the first step is to get rid of that image of God. To get back to the God who is all loving, all caring, wants only the best for his kids, especially forgiving and pleased to give us good, peaceable gifts. A calm, quiet God who doesn't spit in anyone's direction. A God who doesn't like a minister who yells and curses at his flock. A God who prefers a minister to truly care for his flock as if they are precious, delicate lambs. A God who really and truly only wants to love you and wants you to love him.
Maybe some time in the Gospels reading what Jesus taught about God would help. TWI only taught from the more clinical/historical sections and the sections where Jesus was mad or casting out spirits. Read the sweet parts, read the sweet lessons, read the peaceful sections. Those will sooth your soul and help you to get that mean, wooden spoon weilding God out of your mind. :)
It's basically exactly what Mark said, but in "mouth of the south" volume. :wub: You're awfully special, Penguin!! I hope that helps!
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markomalley
Belle,
Thanks for the kind words
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excathedra
i'm with you many times jkboehme
and i also go through phases
i do still talk to god, i've been talking to him since i was old enough to talk, i just can't help it
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dmiller
Sunnyfla said:
"I never had a problem trusting God"
I agree with this. I haven't either. My *search* has always been for a more complete knowledge, a better way of doing things, better understanding of the scriptures, etc., so that I could do what was required of me -- and I looked to denominations to tell me how to accomplish that.
I've been in a lot of denominations before twi for exactly that reason.
I was in twi for that reason.
I left twi for that reason.
That reason still is with me today, though some of those denominations are not.
If I have had problems with ANY religious outfit, I have never laid the blame at God's door-step. As either Mark (or Evan) said:
"God got me into twi, and then got me out of it" (paraphrase).
God works with who He can, when He can, and wth -- sometimes that even includes cults like twi.
I have NO PROBLEM with God. It's the outfits that claim to represent Him that cause the problems.
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Belle
Sunny, and David, that's all wonderful and great for you, but can you two see that you've gotten an honest question from someone who was tainted and abused spiritually in TWI? Can you see how your answers saying that you've never had this problem in your own personal life do nothing but make the seeker feel less than spiritual and even more lowly than TWI already did a good job of doing?]
This poor soul is asking HOW to trust God again. To hear that you never had the problem that he/she had is just validating what TWI under craig's rule taught. Big whoop if YOU'VE never experienced this question or situation. WHAT do you have to contribute to those who have? Your responses, although most likely true, provide no assurance or encouragement to those who have doubted God because of what they saw, learned, experienced and were taught in TWI.
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dmiller
] Well -- I'll tell ya, Allan.
Don't be too critical too fast, OK?
I was raised Catholic, left the church, joined a charismatic group they had going on in the 1970's, and whadda-ya-know --- they taught me how to speak in tongues.
Go figure, eh??
A *real live cult* like the RCC, teaching tongues.
Makes ya wanna go Hmmmm.
(They got interpretation totally wrong, but then again so did docvic.)
Now --- I don't agree with RCC doctrine (Sorry Mark, but that's the way it is for me), but you just can't blow them off as so much *riff-raff* because if you believe what you are saying Allan, God can (and does) work with anyone, regardless of denomination.
According to what you are saying about RCC -- answer me this. How is it they were able to teach me how to speak in tongues??
Sure -- they have doctrine I don't agree with. Sure they have practices that I don't condone. Given my personal beliefs, I would never be in a Catholic church again, but one fact remains ---
THEY TAUGHT ME HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES
Not docvic, but the RCC.
Allan -- I hear where you are coming from, but there is a big wide world out here, and (IMO) God can deal with it all.
Personally --- I don't think He limits Himself to one ministry over another.
:) :) :)
David
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dmiller
Belle -- I will answer you tomorrow.
I had one typed up here, but lost it somehow.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. :(
David
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markomalley
Thanks for the very kind words. I placed Allan on 'ignore' a long time ago because of posts like the one you quoted...and the fact that he apparently feels forced to comment any time I say something about the Catholic Church (I think he is horrified by the fact that somebody on his discussion forum is not ashamed to be in that Church and is compelled to attempt to purge his board from impurities like me). The fact that you simply say been there, done that, not interested, thanks... is laudable. And I appreciate it.
David,
I am not asking you to agree with Catholic doctrine. I am not asking you to agree with Catholic practices. I am not asking anybody to do so. And I am certainly not asking you or anybody else here who's an ex-Catholic to ever set foot in a Catholic church, much less to revert back to the Faith. As I' e said on other threads, are you doing something that works for you...that is bringing you into a closer relationship with God...great. I believe a key function of the Church Universal (i.e., that made up of ALL Christians) is to reveal Christ and to help is the formation of man into conformance with Christ. If what you're doing helps you in that fashion better than something else you've done, including the Catholic church, I'm very happy for you.
The only reason why I even mentioned the fact that I am Catholic, much less speak in positive terms of it, is that I finally got sick of Catholic-bashing (a la Allan) that was based on patently false information. I realize that the vast majority of people here do not agree with Catholic doctrine. Whether ex-Catholic or not. And I realize anything I say is not going to alter anybody's opinion one way or the other. Fine. But I would rather them not agree with what actually is Catholic doctrine rather than with something they were taught by a Protestant was Catholic doctrine. If they are going to disagree with Catholic practices (the liturgies, etc.), fine. But I would prefer them to be in disagreement about something that actually happens, vice something that has no resemblence to any church I've ever set foot in. Frankly, I have a lot of disagreements with things that happen in individual churches myself...and if somebody wishes to disagree with some news element or some politics involving the US Catholic bishops, they'd better be careful...because I'd likely agree with them. However, I will make sure that FACTS are available for consideration.
Anyway, I do appreciate your constructive comments. The fact that you, in no uncertain terms, have no interest whatsoever in ever returning to the Catholic Church, but are able and willing to do so, repeatedly, without insulting Catholics, is a class thing to do and is appreciated.
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rascal
Hey Mark O, you are a class act. Your dignity and insight shine through in your posts. Glad that you don`t let a bully silence you.
Folks generally come in two catagories round here...(regardless of what their current belief system is)......those who participate and contribute, and those who simply stalk the forums looking for a way to attack and discredit.
The folks who feel compelled to slap a lable on you (or anyone) and then who use that as a basis attack are simply immature spiritually.
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