Yeppers, Skyrider, I've also talked to not a few innies who feel the same way and these people were never even involved with the wc program.
One family moved from one city to another because the WC told them to since there wasn't much TWIt presence in that city. Now the city they moved from is one of the largest TWIt areas in their state. They gave up good jobs and a nice home to take lesser jobs and pay higher rent. They're bitter, but still in. It's only a matter of time for them. They are seeing more and more injustice and stupidity in TWI every meeting. They don't tell anyone about TWI because they feel stupid and they are embarrassed that they allowed themselves to be so mis-treated and taken advantage of. They certainly don't want anyone they care about to have their lives derailed like theirs were.
I'm hoping against hope that my ex, who not all that long ago called TWI a boring religion, is seeing how absolutely pathetic they are now that he's working with Mr Linder in Security at HQ. I'm also hoping that he doesn't ignore those nagging thoughts and feelings that he's been having for years. It's the fear that keeps him from doing anything about it.
The young adults who aren't isolated are recognizing the discontent and boredom of the older folks and don't want to live like that. Their ideas for change will be shot down enough times for them to get frustrated enough to leave. It's going to be a rough lesson for those idealistic optomists, but even they, I think, will eventually give up on trying to clean up those old wineskins and will move on to greener pastures where they really can affect change, help people, be themselves and grow without compulsion.
When I worked on staff at hq......THAT EXPERIENCE validated and raised my growing discontent with twi's bureacratic policies, departmental squabbling, in-house politics and backstabbling, with ego and hypocrisy runnin' the show. Perhaps, your ex will see the same.
Seems like this debt/mortgage issue is becoming a REAL ISSUE (sore spot) to corps grads that see the wisdom in owning their home and building equity. BUT.......the fact that this "wisdom" is negated by twi and eliminates them from coordinating home fellowships and attending advanced class functions is ridiculous, and they know it. Twi has NOT come up with any solid "research" or backing of this debt/mortgage issue......but rather, just revisits out-of-context verses and such to prop up their debt policy.
Plus.......the most qualified to teach and lead the local work and overrun by the bozos who rent and live from paycheck to paycheck. The renters and, in many cases, the singles are given the nod to lead the others into the ways of "godliness." In terms of one innie......."it's insulting."
The brown-nosers are working their way into the front of the pack........and the solid, family-focused corps alumni are taking a back seat. And, who could blame them??
The seeds of discontent are growing on the field. It's very evident.
... I could see the chasm widening between twi-mandates and true Christianity. ...
This would be a very interesting study and comparison.
What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?
Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers?
Or were they primarily concerned about moving the Word, fellowshipping with like-minded believers, moving the Word, witnessing, believing the time is short, moving the Word, getting folks born again and sharing the truth, moving the Word, etc. etc.
Point is, if true Christianity is moving the Word over the world, and the primary duty of Christians is to be ambassadors for Christ, then maybe we weren't so wrong in twi to think about moving the Word all the time and forsaking these earthly things?
After all, I don't think the word would have moved nearly so fast and far if folks' primary concern was home ownership, spending time with family/relatives, putting your career first, etc.
I'm not saying any of these things are not good things to do if that's what one wants to do.
I just like to remind myself that things done in twi weren't evil because some earthly pleasures were put off.
It may be a good thing for folks who are regretting their twi experience to be reminded of some of these things.
Building your house upon "the Rock" doesn't necessarily mean home ownership.
Re: "Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers?"
With all the respect I can muster (and that ain't much, sorry), how do we know ANYTHING about how the first century Christians handled their day-to-day living? I submit that what we supposedly "know" is largely (if not entirely) supposition, speculation, or projection. Even if one is still of the "God-breathed Word" mindset, there simply isn't enough in the few passages we have to make ANY definitive conclusions about what "first-century" Christians did or didn't do.
And as far as that goes, how do we know that the first-century Christians were anymore correct in their actions than anyone else that's ever lived?
Sheesh, MAYBE you could step back from your Wierwillian theology for a couple of minutes every now and then and try to get a little more perspective?
Act 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
Act 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
George person, here is some evidence that first century believers' priority wasn't home ownership, careers, family, etc..
Paul separated the disciples, and moved the Word with those disciples who wanted to commit themselves to that.
What do you think those disciples were doing for those two years, investing in real estate?
IMHO One of the major things missing in twi is BALANCE!!!! Moderation in all things pertains to ALL aspects of life. One category of life shouldn't suffer/be allowed to lack for any length of time.
TWI encouraged us to be "Sold-out" to "moving the Word" = ignoring your own needs in order to be douloses for God. An innie friend just recently told me that they were told that jobs, children's school activities and other pursuits should Not interfere with attending fellowships and ministry functions. Same o Same o
Well, oldies, i think the gospel rightly calls our entire society, its values, our government, everything, into question. Into serious question.
The gospel presents a challenge wherever it lives. The question is how you are responding.
I can honestly say that some of what I do in life is in response to that challenge. Some is not. Being an idealist and a seeker, I wish to put more of my life in the first category...
This would be a very interesting study and comparison.
Fine, I did this before, but I'm game....
My answers will be based primarily on Acts.
(And supplemented from the Epistles and Gospels.)
What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?
Trick question, since you tacked on "and how was that applied in twi?"
It was NOT applied in twi.
It was not applied in the "Christian" KKK, either,
or the "Christian" Spanish Inquisition.
True Christianity is based on the action and direction of GOD ALMIGHTY,
not the dictates of LORDS OVER GOD'S HERITAGE,
nor the yoke of bondage of rules and regulations.
Jesus himself said it would not be that way,
and I'm inclined to consider him an "expert witness" on the stand.
Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts
primarily concerned about their
earthly families,
home ownership,
and careers?
They continued work-and Paul made sure he set the example as a tentmaker/saddlemaker/
chicken inspector so they would continue to do so.
They made sure the widders and orphans were take care of.
(They appointed overseers for that very thing.)
Seems they were "CONCERNED" with their "careers" and families.
Paul pointed out that if a leader didn't take care of his FAMILY FIRST,
he wasn't qualified to be a CANDIDATE for leadership,
much less a leader.
So, they did do their jobs-and those who were slaves were told to be good slaves, even.
They did make sure they had decent habitation and their families were tended to.
This included their extended family-taking care of their parents was specifically
mentioned.
Using the loaded terms "career" for job, "home ownership" for "house", and
"earthly families" for families is an attempt to prejudice the answer-
in a sense, push-polling.
This is especially true of the phrase "PRIMARILY".
Nobody is speaking about "primarily",
either of the 1st century, the 20th or 21st century.
Or were they primarily concerned
There's that leading phrase again...
about moving the Word,
As TheEvan pointed out, this wayspeak term has no real meaning, and basically
was invoked as "whatever twi says to do"...
fellowshipping with like-minded believers,
Well, they and everyone in the history of humanity can be said to have
"fellowshipped" with "people of like minds" or "people of like beliefs",
including all the pagan nations, oppressors, and so on.
This hardly narrows the focus of discuss
ion.
I mean,
the people in the fuzzy animal suits fellowship with like-minded believers.
sports fans fellowship with like-minded believers.
Black Militants fellowship with like-minded believers.
White Supremacists fellowship with like-minded believers.
moving the Word,
REPEATING a contentless phrase adds no content to it,
but this WAS an old twi trick to head off logical discussion...
witnessing,
Well, EVERY group of Christians-and groups claiming to BE Christians,
and groups with any sort of tie to Christianity,
and groups relating to Islam,
and political activists,
and PETA members,
and the John Birch Society,
they "witness" also.
Some of them even have ORGANIZED PROGRAMS to do so,
like twi does.
Funny, the Book of Acts mentions NO SUCH PROGRAM.....
believing the time is short,
How much time, on the average, does it take to hold a belief?
I've clocked it as "negligible", using my stopwatch....
moving the Word,
Keep repeating the buzzword, and it takes on a religious special
meaning despite meaning nothing initially....
One more time ought to do it....
getting folks born again
This is a function of MILLIONS of Christians in the US alone, alive now.
This is HARDLY a "distinguishing mark" for twi.
In fact, a keeper of the Eleusinian mysteries or the historical
"assassins" or other groups would claim to have been
"born again" as well.
and sharing the truth,
"What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate.
twi's "truths" included things like
"all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king",
"thoroughly and throughly mean different things",
and "Christian was a term of derision referring to the new birth",
all of which are patently false.
The 1st century Christian church had a better track record
than that.....
moving the Word, etc. etc.
You've repeated it enough to bypass our conscious minds!
You may now shave our heads and collect 15% of our income!
Or, maybe not.
Point is, if true Christianity is moving the Word over the world, and the primary duty of Christians is to be ambassadors for Christ, then maybe we weren't so wrong in twi to think about moving the Word all the time and forsaking these earthly things?
You made assumptions and jumped to your conclusions.
See, we're not "in your church" and you can't tell us what to think.
You have to "make a case" and use REASON and LOGIC.
You can't declare victory by divine fiat.
(Actually, you CAN, but then we'll just feel pity for you.)
Making zero preparations is bad stewardship.
Nobody making war just heads out-
he checks his supplies and forces while still at headquarters,
and calculates victory or defeat before moving.
A fool will move forward with no planning.
That's in the Epistles AND in Sun Tzu's "the Art of War".
Making a point of being committed to God is good,
but taking a figure of speech literally when it is meant to
be figurative is foolish.
Saying "what shall we eat?" and concluding we're not
supposed to worry about that, and therefore not shopping
for food and getting snowed in for the winter will mean
that either you'll need a food miracle,
or they'll recover your body in the spring.
After all, I don't think the word would have moved nearly so fast and far if folks'
primary concern
was home ownership, spending time with family/relatives, putting your career first, etc.
Who decided that these were their "PRIMARY CONCERNS",
and not just solid planning?
(I know, Oldiesman, but other than him?)
Naming them "PRIMARY CONCERNS", however,
helps maintain the ILLUSION that twi has sound practices
and doctrine...
I'm not saying any of these things are not good things to do if that's what one wants to do.
Actually,
you're suggesting they're making God of secondary importance
in your life, so, you are claiming that these are "GOOD" things
but not "BEST".
See, I can still play "twi-speak" too, when I want....
I just like to remind myself that things done in twi weren't evil because some earthly pleasures were put off.
Actually,
you like to reming yourself that some slogans and twispeak SOUNDS
pious and holy.
It's like listening to Knute Rockne recordings.
It may be a good thing for folks who are regretting their twi experience to be reminded of some of these things.
It may be a BETTER thing for folks to step aside from the sloganeering for a bit and
look COLDLY at what "leadership" DEMANDED they do
in the guise of
"moving the Word".
Building your house upon "the Rock" doesn't necessarily mean home ownership.
Nor does it necessarily mean you DON'T,
but God forbid you DO and stay involved in twi.....
When I read accounts of the first-century believers......I see SNAPSHOTS of a man's ministry, SNAPSHOTS of deliverance, SNAPSHOTS of a short period of time (like a WOW year????).......NOT A LIFETIME OF SERVICE TO A JERUSALEM CORPORATION.
Even Philip the evangelist (in Acts 8) had his moments of a "ministry on fire"......and preached the gospel, but later settled in Caesarea. What all his life entailed in Caesarea, the scriptures are silent. Years and years pass.........THEN (in Acts 21:8ff) when Paul is in Caesarea and enters into the house of Philip the evangelist (yes, he is still noted as AN EVANGELIST) Philips FOUR DAUGHTERS prophesied that Paul not go up to Jerusalem.
Point being.........Philip STAYED YEARS AND YEARS IN CAESAREA and raised his family. Now, we could speculate all we want about his priorities, his loyalties, his lifestyle, etc............
Isn't it amazing what twi EMPHASIZES.........and what twi IGNORES.
Philip stayed put in Caesarea and was living in the grace of God. :D
"This would be a very interesting study and comparison.
What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?"
Oldies,
Read the Acts of the Apostles.
Read non-canoncial writings as well from around that era -- not that those writings will pronounce any kind of new doctrine, but they can tend to reveal what people in those days thought about an issue.
If you're really curious, that's what I'd suggest. Of course that implies that you'd be really curious...
In my opinion all the problems around the family, have a house and money started first when a lot of Corps after LCM draw tha line "kept" as if they were there property the limb houses and materials. Second, when The Corps gone full time ministers, third the: "do not owe nothing to no one" doctrine.
The Corps are ministers, they are in a special category, The Way International should back them to have a house, to have a insurance for medic services, and a plan fore retirement, in that form they can move The Word and have a more earthly life. They deserve it. Also go to college is important. Master the Word and the earthly knowlage. Also the trusties should live in the same way the Corps do.
The States shoud provide also better forms for there citicens.
I did college paying just one dollar per each three months class period, so I did not have to be indebted to go to school.
I think that all Corps and regular believers should have a house, a family, pets, trips, vacationes and the things they and we consider a need for ower lifes. "To grow without compulsion". :P
Oldies: That is EXACTLY what TWI thinks... In thier opinion one should be almost an activist for the word. If that's what someone wants to do, then they should join TWI. Give up simple things like a career and owning a home.
But not ALL of christendom has to be like that. Philip the evangalist is a perfect example. Not all christians have the same spiritual calling.
If all christians were supposed to not have jobs or have any wealth then what would happen?
I don't think there is anything wrong with being in TWI. But you have to realize that you are required to live their way and see things their way. I don't agree with their way, that's why I'm not involved.
I've always seen TWI as a group that try's to live to a higher standard. They think they are "professional christians" or something.
While this does sound appealing (to me at least). The practical side never seemed to workout. I never saw the benefit of living this way. I tried really hard. It just never worked in real life for me. I tried to "speak the word" to people. Tried to show them how debt would their your life. I was mean as hell to homosexuals and "homo-sympathisers".
I went to fellowship 3x a week. I only socialized with "believers". I witnessed to all my friends and co-workers. I took all (i mean ALL) the classes.
TWI just didn't work for me. So i left.
That deep discontent in TWI is the same discontent i had before i left. I was trying. That just got old. It wasn't working, so i left.
Nanon said....."That deep discontent in TWI is the same discontent i had before i left. I was trying. That just got old. It wasn't working, so i left."
To me, the basic common denominator for this deep discontent was TWI LEGALISM.
Twi legalism was attempting to trumph the grace of God in my life.
Twi legalism of buzzwords and inuendos was continuously encroaching on my thought life.
Twi legalism was trying to steal my fellowship with my Lord.
Twi legalism was oppressing my individuality as a member in the One Body.
Twi legalism was choking the life and liberty that God had called me to.
Wierwillian agendas were present in the early 70s.......just more suble.
Martindale agendas took spiritual bullying to a whole new level.
Rivenbark agendas have reverted back to the more suble form.
But the deep discontent is STILL THERE.........because legalism is STILL THERE.
Sounds to me like the deep discontent is indeed a matter of content, not travel or activity. There's always been a lot of activity in the Way, things to go to and do. But are they meaningful? Do they fulfill, interest, challenge? Is there growth, development. And, are they for everyone? Does everyone have to do the same things, the same way, at the same time, all the time?
The Way loves to latch onto some little word-play twist in the bible and beat it like a hammer on a tack. Family/household, faith/believing. Godly love/emotional love. Move the Word or Sit and die. Go WOW or Be a spud. It's as if life and love are finally found - in a dictionary.
When it all shakes out, what really counts? What do you take away with you? If it's not enough, then of course you're going to be disatisfied. If someone's happy, they should stay, keep doing what they're doing, have a ball. If not, it hardly means they're screwed up somehow.
It's really humorous - being in the Way - once - is like going on the date-from-hell where you have a good time, hope to do it again sometime but the other person starts calling 5 times a day and doesn't understand why you don't want to see them now everyday and ends up telling everyone you're a creep because you don't see that You're Their Soul Partner For Life. "I keep telling him/her that I need to see them but they just won't call back and I don't understand what's wrong or what I did except I'm sure it's not me so it must be them and I'm really concerned!!! ...!" It's just funny. Weird but funny.
Paul separating the disciples is not "proof" that their first priority was "moving the word." That could be takem any number of ways, including the possibility that they were the equivilant of today's missionaries. Jesus Christ mainly "hung out" with 12 disciples. Those 12 left their careers, homes, etc. to follow him. But. that does not mean those that did not walk with him on a daily basis did not want to commit themselves to it.
Not everyone can spend every bit of their time "moving the word." That calling is not for everyone.
As for the term "moving the word," I really do not think it's a term with much power. I personally feel it was a phrase used by TWI for motivational & influential purposes.
Vyctorya
George person, here is some evidence that first century believers' priority wasn't home ownership, careers, family, etc..
Paul separated the disciples, and moved the Word with those disciples who wanted to commit themselves to that.
What do you think those disciples were doing for those two years, investing in real estate?
"What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?
Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers?
Or were they primarily concerned about moving the Word, fellowshipping with like-minded believers, moving the Word, witnessing, believing the time is short, moving the Word, getting folks born again and sharing the truth, moving the Word, etc. etc."
Being concered with your earthly family (which includes having a job and providing a roof over their heads and generally means more than simply subsisting) IS the best witness for God there is. Only when your family is taken care of do you truly have room to help others and to show others how to help themselves.
Did the disciples and apostles abandon their families? Leave them hungry and homeless? In the epistles we are told we are supposed to take care of our families. But the mandates of TWI made that very difficult, if not impossible in some situations. For example, requiring us to give over 10% of our income or God would not even spit in our direction. How many people faced times when they couldn't pay their bills because there wasn't enough after that 10 plus percent?
How many people gave up good jobs with insurance benefits after being directed by TWI to relocate or change jobs because they couldn't attend fellowship often enough at their current job - and then ended up near bankruptcy with huge medical bills after an unexpected illness or accident?
How many people had their families ripped apart because leadership directed an "innie" spouse to divorce the "outie" one? Or because leadership advised parents to ship their kids off to be raised by "unbelieving" relatives because their kids didn't want to attend fellowship?
That may not be the TWI you remember or were involved with, Oldies, but it sure as hell is the TWI I walked away from.
The Corps are ministers, they are in a special category, The Way International should back them to have a house, to have a insurance for medic services, and a plan fore retirement, in that form they can move The Word and have a more earthly life. They deserve it. Also go to college is important. Master the Word and the earthly knowlage. Also the trusties should live in the same way the Corps do.
I believe that anyone deserves to have this abundance. All of Gods people, not just the corpse of the way being set aside as deserving this. It is being a respecter of persons.
Jesus loved the children because there hearts in believing were so simple, he knew they were the future. God loves and desires the abundant life for all.
The corps ........ and in the end the corps of VPWs were thought of as ignorant compared to LCMs advance class grads ....... why? I really don't know. The only thing I know is that I am tired of the titles ............ my own child believes better than I do ........ regardless of all my training, I know this in my heart.
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Buying real estate??? Naw -- just having a roof over their heads. As usual, twi, comes out second best (at best) with with their presumptious presumptions.
Can you say --- they haven't a clue???
It's gonna be hard, but it's the truth. :)
Seems I remember ---
somewhere
somewhere
somewhere
hearing about going from house to house breaking bread. Were those rental units, so that no man would owe
and could move freely to *move da Word* (sorry Evan!) ;)
If ya want to take an honest look at it, folks have owned homes since there have been folks, and property to live on. Yuppers -- even in biblical times too. Enter the 20 (whatever) century, and twi says it ain't cool to do what man has been doing since the beginning of time.
I guess they skipped over the part in the OT of the Isrealites looking for a place to once and for all put down roots -- ie. -- read A HOME.
Nothing twi does these days surprises me. Whatever the *norm* is, I can make a solid bet that twi will counter it -- and though they will lose, I will win. They are behind the eight ball, and haven't a clue that it is even in their neighborhood.
I don't know (totally) what they promote (these days), but given past performance, they really have no idea how stupid and archaic their ideas are -- and I'm basing my assumptions from the 1980's, and I can guareen-damn-tee you that what I knew of them then, is most likely still in evidence today.
So Oldies -- I know it is a useless plea, but give it up already, OK??.
I truly wonder what ever happened to the man who burned should marry and then his life changes and his responsibilities change before God, he is told to take care of his wife and of course obviously if he has children he is to take care of them to.
I am not saying that if you are married you are to forget God. I am just saying those whom are married and with children or even not married and have children to raise, the family and being raised properly before God is the most important in that mans/womans life. It doesn't mean take care of the business of the ministry first.
Many of us with families, the marriage suffered or the children did, becase once you got to a certain level of TWI classes and training your responsibilties to TWI were more important than your kids or supporting them. I remember not being able to keep my kids in simple things like Tae Kwon Do or Violin because there classes were continually interupted or missed because of ministry business.
Do not put the ministry to the side instead of .... Tae Kwon Do ...... how was that going to help move Gods word, it just took away from TWI, shoot take away from the now 3 times mandatory fellowship a week ...... plus your running fellowship in your home and working for the Limb 2 days a week. My hubby was Treasurer for Limb, I was Secretary and Book Store ......... it took away from our family.
God never intended for our families to suffer ...... TWI screwed up here. They gave the working married man and woman with children or even the single man or woman with children the same responsibilities and sometimes depending on your training more responsibilities than the single person without kids.
Jesus Christ took those men who were not tie down to wives and children that they were raising. Thus the reason Jesus was not married ......... his bride was the church he took care of Gods people. Man is suppose to take care of his wife like Jesus did the church. How can he do this when he is tied down to the church. Legalism in TWI ....... there practical application of the word was all off and still is. I truly feel sorry for families in TWI.
Singles can make the time to do so much more for the word in the present. Parents have to raise up Gods next generation of believers and it is important to get the kids involved as much with as many other kids as you can .......... our kids were to be Gods next generation of people witnessing the truth of his words to those in there generation. Thus Jesus loved the children and did not want them sent away, they are the future.
.......
I am rambling on my soapbox ..... I'll get off now
when I was in for years I held many functions in my house. The very first time I saw it, I thought to myself this is a home where I can help host events for the Way. I even had branch functions. It backed up to a 40 acre park which was on a lake.It was very large..My first thought was opening my home and welcome people in to earn more about God's love and word. How can that not be putting God first..well, if I did not take of it and let it get run down..that never happened..I didnt have help from others to maintain it..home is a home,sure, but when you take something a make it better in efforts to help in a godly way, everyone prospers.
Stripping people of thier own personal desires is wrong.Life has balance..and the Way became extreme.
Also, I heard once that they were trying to turn us all into Corps...strip everything and rebuild them into thier mold!!
When I think back to my own deep discontent.......
I was dissatisfied with twi's policies and hypocrisy......and NO CHANGE was anywhere in sight. All the reasons for my involvement with twi had morphed into THEIR agendas, not mine.
In the end, all I could see was.....TWI LORDING OVER GOD'S HERITAGE.
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Belle
Yeppers, Skyrider, I've also talked to not a few innies who feel the same way and these people were never even involved with the wc program.
One family moved from one city to another because the WC told them to since there wasn't much TWIt presence in that city. Now the city they moved from is one of the largest TWIt areas in their state. They gave up good jobs and a nice home to take lesser jobs and pay higher rent. They're bitter, but still in. It's only a matter of time for them. They are seeing more and more injustice and stupidity in TWI every meeting. They don't tell anyone about TWI because they feel stupid and they are embarrassed that they allowed themselves to be so mis-treated and taken advantage of. They certainly don't want anyone they care about to have their lives derailed like theirs were.
I'm hoping against hope that my ex, who not all that long ago called TWI a boring religion, is seeing how absolutely pathetic they are now that he's working with Mr Linder in Security at HQ. I'm also hoping that he doesn't ignore those nagging thoughts and feelings that he's been having for years. It's the fear that keeps him from doing anything about it.
The young adults who aren't isolated are recognizing the discontent and boredom of the older folks and don't want to live like that. Their ideas for change will be shot down enough times for them to get frustrated enough to leave. It's going to be a rough lesson for those idealistic optomists, but even they, I think, will eventually give up on trying to clean up those old wineskins and will move on to greener pastures where they really can affect change, help people, be themselves and grow without compulsion.
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skyrider
Belle,
When I worked on staff at hq......THAT EXPERIENCE validated and raised my growing discontent with twi's bureacratic policies, departmental squabbling, in-house politics and backstabbling, with ego and hypocrisy runnin' the show. Perhaps, your ex will see the same.
Seems like this debt/mortgage issue is becoming a REAL ISSUE (sore spot) to corps grads that see the wisdom in owning their home and building equity. BUT.......the fact that this "wisdom" is negated by twi and eliminates them from coordinating home fellowships and attending advanced class functions is ridiculous, and they know it. Twi has NOT come up with any solid "research" or backing of this debt/mortgage issue......but rather, just revisits out-of-context verses and such to prop up their debt policy.
Plus.......the most qualified to teach and lead the local work and overrun by the bozos who rent and live from paycheck to paycheck. The renters and, in many cases, the singles are given the nod to lead the others into the ways of "godliness." In terms of one innie......."it's insulting."
The brown-nosers are working their way into the front of the pack........and the solid, family-focused corps alumni are taking a back seat. And, who could blame them??
The seeds of discontent are growing on the field. It's very evident.
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oldiesman
This would be a very interesting study and comparison.
What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?
Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers?
Or were they primarily concerned about moving the Word, fellowshipping with like-minded believers, moving the Word, witnessing, believing the time is short, moving the Word, getting folks born again and sharing the truth, moving the Word, etc. etc.
Point is, if true Christianity is moving the Word over the world, and the primary duty of Christians is to be ambassadors for Christ, then maybe we weren't so wrong in twi to think about moving the Word all the time and forsaking these earthly things?
After all, I don't think the word would have moved nearly so fast and far if folks' primary concern was home ownership, spending time with family/relatives, putting your career first, etc.
I'm not saying any of these things are not good things to do if that's what one wants to do.
I just like to remind myself that things done in twi weren't evil because some earthly pleasures were put off.
It may be a good thing for folks who are regretting their twi experience to be reminded of some of these things.
Building your house upon "the Rock" doesn't necessarily mean home ownership.
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George Aar
Oldiesperson,
Re: "Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers?"
With all the respect I can muster (and that ain't much, sorry), how do we know ANYTHING about how the first century Christians handled their day-to-day living? I submit that what we supposedly "know" is largely (if not entirely) supposition, speculation, or projection. Even if one is still of the "God-breathed Word" mindset, there simply isn't enough in the few passages we have to make ANY definitive conclusions about what "first-century" Christians did or didn't do.
And as far as that goes, how do we know that the first-century Christians were anymore correct in their actions than anyone else that's ever lived?
Sheesh, MAYBE you could step back from your Wierwillian theology for a couple of minutes every now and then and try to get a little more perspective?
Well, it's a thought...
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TheEvan
I object to the baggage-filled and meaning-less wayspeak codeword "moving the Word". It is descriptive of absolutely nothing.
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oldiesman
George person, here is some evidence that first century believers' priority wasn't home ownership, careers, family, etc..
Paul separated the disciples, and moved the Word with those disciples who wanted to commit themselves to that.
What do you think those disciples were doing for those two years, investing in real estate?
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penguin
IMHO One of the major things missing in twi is BALANCE!!!! Moderation in all things pertains to ALL aspects of life. One category of life shouldn't suffer/be allowed to lack for any length of time.
TWI encouraged us to be "Sold-out" to "moving the Word" = ignoring your own needs in order to be douloses for God. An innie friend just recently told me that they were told that jobs, children's school activities and other pursuits should Not interfere with attending fellowships and ministry functions. Same o Same o
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TheEvan
Well, oldies, i think the gospel rightly calls our entire society, its values, our government, everything, into question. Into serious question.
The gospel presents a challenge wherever it lives. The question is how you are responding.
I can honestly say that some of what I do in life is in response to that challenge. Some is not. Being an idealist and a seeker, I wish to put more of my life in the first category...
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WordWolf
Fine, I did this before, but I'm game....
My answers will be based primarily on Acts.
(And supplemented from the Epistles and Gospels.)
Trick question, since you tacked on "and how was that applied in twi?"
It was NOT applied in twi.
It was not applied in the "Christian" KKK, either,
or the "Christian" Spanish Inquisition.
True Christianity is based on the action and direction of GOD ALMIGHTY,
not the dictates of LORDS OVER GOD'S HERITAGE,
nor the yoke of bondage of rules and regulations.
Jesus himself said it would not be that way,
and I'm inclined to consider him an "expert witness" on the stand.
They continued work-and Paul made sure he set the example as a tentmaker/saddlemaker/
chicken inspector so they would continue to do so.
They made sure the widders and orphans were take care of.
(They appointed overseers for that very thing.)
Seems they were "CONCERNED" with their "careers" and families.
Paul pointed out that if a leader didn't take care of his FAMILY FIRST,
he wasn't qualified to be a CANDIDATE for leadership,
much less a leader.
So, they did do their jobs-and those who were slaves were told to be good slaves, even.
They did make sure they had decent habitation and their families were tended to.
This included their extended family-taking care of their parents was specifically
mentioned.
Using the loaded terms "career" for job, "home ownership" for "house", and
"earthly families" for families is an attempt to prejudice the answer-
in a sense, push-polling.
This is especially true of the phrase "PRIMARILY".
Nobody is speaking about "primarily",
either of the 1st century, the 20th or 21st century.
There's that leading phrase again...
As TheEvan pointed out, this wayspeak term has no real meaning, and basically
was invoked as "whatever twi says to do"...
Well, they and everyone in the history of humanity can be said to have
"fellowshipped" with "people of like minds" or "people of like beliefs",
including all the pagan nations, oppressors, and so on.
This hardly narrows the focus of discuss
ion.
I mean,
the people in the fuzzy animal suits fellowship with like-minded believers.
sports fans fellowship with like-minded believers.
Black Militants fellowship with like-minded believers.
White Supremacists fellowship with like-minded believers.
REPEATING a contentless phrase adds no content to it,
but this WAS an old twi trick to head off logical discussion...
Well, EVERY group of Christians-and groups claiming to BE Christians,
and groups with any sort of tie to Christianity,
and groups relating to Islam,
and political activists,
and PETA members,
and the John Birch Society,
they "witness" also.
Some of them even have ORGANIZED PROGRAMS to do so,
like twi does.
Funny, the Book of Acts mentions NO SUCH PROGRAM.....
How much time, on the average, does it take to hold a belief?
I've clocked it as "negligible", using my stopwatch....
Keep repeating the buzzword, and it takes on a religious special
meaning despite meaning nothing initially....
One more time ought to do it....
This is a function of MILLIONS of Christians in the US alone, alive now.
This is HARDLY a "distinguishing mark" for twi.
In fact, a keeper of the Eleusinian mysteries or the historical
"assassins" or other groups would claim to have been
"born again" as well.
"What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate.
twi's "truths" included things like
"all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king",
"thoroughly and throughly mean different things",
and "Christian was a term of derision referring to the new birth",
all of which are patently false.
The 1st century Christian church had a better track record
than that.....
You've repeated it enough to bypass our conscious minds!
You may now shave our heads and collect 15% of our income!
Or, maybe not.
You made assumptions and jumped to your conclusions.
See, we're not "in your church" and you can't tell us what to think.
You have to "make a case" and use REASON and LOGIC.
You can't declare victory by divine fiat.
(Actually, you CAN, but then we'll just feel pity for you.)
Making zero preparations is bad stewardship.
Nobody making war just heads out-
he checks his supplies and forces while still at headquarters,
and calculates victory or defeat before moving.
A fool will move forward with no planning.
That's in the Epistles AND in Sun Tzu's "the Art of War".
Making a point of being committed to God is good,
but taking a figure of speech literally when it is meant to
be figurative is foolish.
Saying "what shall we eat?" and concluding we're not
supposed to worry about that, and therefore not shopping
for food and getting snowed in for the winter will mean
that either you'll need a food miracle,
or they'll recover your body in the spring.
Who decided that these were their "PRIMARY CONCERNS",
and not just solid planning?
(I know, Oldiesman, but other than him?)
Naming them "PRIMARY CONCERNS", however,
helps maintain the ILLUSION that twi has sound practices
and doctrine...
Actually,
you're suggesting they're making God of secondary importance
in your life, so, you are claiming that these are "GOOD" things
but not "BEST".
See, I can still play "twi-speak" too, when I want....
Actually,
you like to reming yourself that some slogans and twispeak SOUNDS
pious and holy.
It's like listening to Knute Rockne recordings.
It may be a BETTER thing for folks to step aside from the sloganeering for a bit and
look COLDLY at what "leadership" DEMANDED they do
in the guise of
"moving the Word".
Nor does it necessarily mean you DON'T,
but God forbid you DO and stay involved in twi.....
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skyrider
Oldies,
When I read accounts of the first-century believers......I see SNAPSHOTS of a man's ministry, SNAPSHOTS of deliverance, SNAPSHOTS of a short period of time (like a WOW year????).......NOT A LIFETIME OF SERVICE TO A JERUSALEM CORPORATION.
Even Philip the evangelist (in Acts 8) had his moments of a "ministry on fire"......and preached the gospel, but later settled in Caesarea. What all his life entailed in Caesarea, the scriptures are silent. Years and years pass.........THEN (in Acts 21:8ff) when Paul is in Caesarea and enters into the house of Philip the evangelist (yes, he is still noted as AN EVANGELIST) Philips FOUR DAUGHTERS prophesied that Paul not go up to Jerusalem.
Point being.........Philip STAYED YEARS AND YEARS IN CAESAREA and raised his family. Now, we could speculate all we want about his priorities, his loyalties, his lifestyle, etc............
Isn't it amazing what twi EMPHASIZES.........and what twi IGNORES.
Philip stayed put in Caesarea and was living in the grace of God. :D
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bliss
"Isn't it amazing what twi EMPHASIZES.........and what twi IGNORES."
You got an AMEN on that Skyrider.
Oldies, are you still an ''INNIE"?
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markomalley
"This would be a very interesting study and comparison.
What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?"
Oldies,
Read the Acts of the Apostles.
Read non-canoncial writings as well from around that era -- not that those writings will pronounce any kind of new doctrine, but they can tend to reveal what people in those days thought about an issue.
If you're really curious, that's what I'd suggest. Of course that implies that you'd be really curious...
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themex
In my opinion all the problems around the family, have a house and money started first when a lot of Corps after LCM draw tha line "kept" as if they were there property the limb houses and materials. Second, when The Corps gone full time ministers, third the: "do not owe nothing to no one" doctrine.
The Corps are ministers, they are in a special category, The Way International should back them to have a house, to have a insurance for medic services, and a plan fore retirement, in that form they can move The Word and have a more earthly life. They deserve it. Also go to college is important. Master the Word and the earthly knowlage. Also the trusties should live in the same way the Corps do.
The school credits, car credits, credit carts, and debt-mortgage problems are just cultural problemes of the U.S. and the advanced countries. In México Just 10% of the population has access to some tipe of credit.
The States shoud provide also better forms for there citicens.
I did college paying just one dollar per each three months class period, so I did not have to be indebted to go to school.
I think that all Corps and regular believers should have a house, a family, pets, trips, vacationes and the things they and we consider a need for ower lifes. "To grow without compulsion". :P
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nandon
Oldies: That is EXACTLY what TWI thinks... In thier opinion one should be almost an activist for the word. If that's what someone wants to do, then they should join TWI. Give up simple things like a career and owning a home.
But not ALL of christendom has to be like that. Philip the evangalist is a perfect example. Not all christians have the same spiritual calling.
If all christians were supposed to not have jobs or have any wealth then what would happen?
I don't think there is anything wrong with being in TWI. But you have to realize that you are required to live their way and see things their way. I don't agree with their way, that's why I'm not involved.
I've always seen TWI as a group that try's to live to a higher standard. They think they are "professional christians" or something.
While this does sound appealing (to me at least). The practical side never seemed to workout. I never saw the benefit of living this way. I tried really hard. It just never worked in real life for me. I tried to "speak the word" to people. Tried to show them how debt would their your life. I was mean as hell to homosexuals and "homo-sympathisers".
I went to fellowship 3x a week. I only socialized with "believers". I witnessed to all my friends and co-workers. I took all (i mean ALL) the classes.
TWI just didn't work for me. So i left.
That deep discontent in TWI is the same discontent i had before i left. I was trying. That just got old. It wasn't working, so i left.
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skyrider
Nanon said....."That deep discontent in TWI is the same discontent i had before i left. I was trying. That just got old. It wasn't working, so i left."
To me, the basic common denominator for this deep discontent was TWI LEGALISM.
Twi legalism was attempting to trumph the grace of God in my life.
Twi legalism of buzzwords and inuendos was continuously encroaching on my thought life.
Twi legalism was trying to steal my fellowship with my Lord.
Twi legalism was oppressing my individuality as a member in the One Body.
Twi legalism was choking the life and liberty that God had called me to.
Wierwillian agendas were present in the early 70s.......just more suble.
Martindale agendas took spiritual bullying to a whole new level.
Rivenbark agendas have reverted back to the more suble form.
But the deep discontent is STILL THERE.........because legalism is STILL THERE.
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socks
Sounds to me like the deep discontent is indeed a matter of content, not travel or activity. There's always been a lot of activity in the Way, things to go to and do. But are they meaningful? Do they fulfill, interest, challenge? Is there growth, development. And, are they for everyone? Does everyone have to do the same things, the same way, at the same time, all the time?
The Way loves to latch onto some little word-play twist in the bible and beat it like a hammer on a tack. Family/household, faith/believing. Godly love/emotional love. Move the Word or Sit and die. Go WOW or Be a spud. It's as if life and love are finally found - in a dictionary.
When it all shakes out, what really counts? What do you take away with you? If it's not enough, then of course you're going to be disatisfied. If someone's happy, they should stay, keep doing what they're doing, have a ball. If not, it hardly means they're screwed up somehow.
It's really humorous - being in the Way - once - is like going on the date-from-hell where you have a good time, hope to do it again sometime but the other person starts calling 5 times a day and doesn't understand why you don't want to see them now everyday and ends up telling everyone you're a creep because you don't see that You're Their Soul Partner For Life. "I keep telling him/her that I need to see them but they just won't call back and I don't understand what's wrong or what I did except I'm sure it's not me so it must be them and I'm really concerned!!! ...!" It's just funny. Weird but funny.
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Vyctorya911
Paul separating the disciples is not "proof" that their first priority was "moving the word." That could be takem any number of ways, including the possibility that they were the equivilant of today's missionaries. Jesus Christ mainly "hung out" with 12 disciples. Those 12 left their careers, homes, etc. to follow him. But. that does not mean those that did not walk with him on a daily basis did not want to commit themselves to it.
Not everyone can spend every bit of their time "moving the word." That calling is not for everyone.
As for the term "moving the word," I really do not think it's a term with much power. I personally feel it was a phrase used by TWI for motivational & influential purposes.
Vyctorya
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Morgan
"What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?
Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers?
Or were they primarily concerned about moving the Word, fellowshipping with like-minded believers, moving the Word, witnessing, believing the time is short, moving the Word, getting folks born again and sharing the truth, moving the Word, etc. etc."
Being concered with your earthly family (which includes having a job and providing a roof over their heads and generally means more than simply subsisting) IS the best witness for God there is. Only when your family is taken care of do you truly have room to help others and to show others how to help themselves.
Did the disciples and apostles abandon their families? Leave them hungry and homeless? In the epistles we are told we are supposed to take care of our families. But the mandates of TWI made that very difficult, if not impossible in some situations. For example, requiring us to give over 10% of our income or God would not even spit in our direction. How many people faced times when they couldn't pay their bills because there wasn't enough after that 10 plus percent?
How many people gave up good jobs with insurance benefits after being directed by TWI to relocate or change jobs because they couldn't attend fellowship often enough at their current job - and then ended up near bankruptcy with huge medical bills after an unexpected illness or accident?
How many people had their families ripped apart because leadership directed an "innie" spouse to divorce the "outie" one? Or because leadership advised parents to ship their kids off to be raised by "unbelieving" relatives because their kids didn't want to attend fellowship?
That may not be the TWI you remember or were involved with, Oldies, but it sure as hell is the TWI I walked away from.
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Digitalis
Mex Said:
I believe that anyone deserves to have this abundance. All of Gods people, not just the corpse of the way being set aside as deserving this. It is being a respecter of persons.
Jesus loved the children because there hearts in believing were so simple, he knew they were the future. God loves and desires the abundant life for all.
The corps ........ and in the end the corps of VPWs were thought of as ignorant compared to LCMs advance class grads ....... why? I really don't know. The only thing I know is that I am tired of the titles ............ my own child believes better than I do ........ regardless of all my training, I know this in my heart.
Digi
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dmiller
Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 16:40
And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buying real estate??? Naw -- just having a roof over their heads. As usual, twi, comes out second best (at best) with with their presumptious presumptions.
Can you say --- they haven't a clue???
It's gonna be hard, but it's the truth. :)
Seems I remember ---
somewhere
somewhere
somewhere
hearing about going from house to house breaking bread. Were those rental units, so that no man would owe
and could move freely to *move da Word* (sorry Evan!) ;)
If ya want to take an honest look at it, folks have owned homes since there have been folks, and property to live on. Yuppers -- even in biblical times too. Enter the 20 (whatever) century, and twi says it ain't cool to do what man has been doing since the beginning of time.
I guess they skipped over the part in the OT of the Isrealites looking for a place to once and for all put down roots -- ie. -- read A HOME.
Nothing twi does these days surprises me. Whatever the *norm* is, I can make a solid bet that twi will counter it -- and though they will lose, I will win. They are behind the eight ball, and haven't a clue that it is even in their neighborhood.
I don't know (totally) what they promote (these days), but given past performance, they really have no idea how stupid and archaic their ideas are -- and I'm basing my assumptions from the 1980's, and I can guareen-damn-tee you that what I knew of them then, is most likely still in evidence today.
So Oldies -- I know it is a useless plea, but give it up already, OK??.
You're backing a losing *team*.
David
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Digitalis
I truly wonder what ever happened to the man who burned should marry and then his life changes and his responsibilities change before God, he is told to take care of his wife and of course obviously if he has children he is to take care of them to.
I am not saying that if you are married you are to forget God. I am just saying those whom are married and with children or even not married and have children to raise, the family and being raised properly before God is the most important in that mans/womans life. It doesn't mean take care of the business of the ministry first.
Many of us with families, the marriage suffered or the children did, becase once you got to a certain level of TWI classes and training your responsibilties to TWI were more important than your kids or supporting them. I remember not being able to keep my kids in simple things like Tae Kwon Do or Violin because there classes were continually interupted or missed because of ministry business.
Do not put the ministry to the side instead of .... Tae Kwon Do ...... how was that going to help move Gods word, it just took away from TWI, shoot take away from the now 3 times mandatory fellowship a week ...... plus your running fellowship in your home and working for the Limb 2 days a week. My hubby was Treasurer for Limb, I was Secretary and Book Store ......... it took away from our family.
God never intended for our families to suffer ...... TWI screwed up here. They gave the working married man and woman with children or even the single man or woman with children the same responsibilities and sometimes depending on your training more responsibilities than the single person without kids.
Jesus Christ took those men who were not tie down to wives and children that they were raising. Thus the reason Jesus was not married ......... his bride was the church he took care of Gods people. Man is suppose to take care of his wife like Jesus did the church. How can he do this when he is tied down to the church. Legalism in TWI ....... there practical application of the word was all off and still is. I truly feel sorry for families in TWI.
Singles can make the time to do so much more for the word in the present. Parents have to raise up Gods next generation of believers and it is important to get the kids involved as much with as many other kids as you can .......... our kids were to be Gods next generation of people witnessing the truth of his words to those in there generation. Thus Jesus loved the children and did not want them sent away, they are the future.
.......
I am rambling on my soapbox ..... I'll get off now
Digi
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WordWolf
Oldies is OBVIOUSLY NOT an "innie".
If Oldies was an innie,
he'd be facing all the evidence of crap
every day.
From his comfy chair, Oldies is distant
enough in time and space to speculate
and weave a tale of events a long time
ago in a galaxy far, far away...
...in those days, there was joy throughout
the kingdom.
Men were men, women were women,
and bottles of Drambuie were bottles of
Drambuie.
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likeaneagle
when I was in for years I held many functions in my house. The very first time I saw it, I thought to myself this is a home where I can help host events for the Way. I even had branch functions. It backed up to a 40 acre park which was on a lake.It was very large..My first thought was opening my home and welcome people in to earn more about God's love and word. How can that not be putting God first..well, if I did not take of it and let it get run down..that never happened..I didnt have help from others to maintain it..home is a home,sure, but when you take something a make it better in efforts to help in a godly way, everyone prospers.
Stripping people of thier own personal desires is wrong.Life has balance..and the Way became extreme.
Also, I heard once that they were trying to turn us all into Corps...strip everything and rebuild them into thier mold!!
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skyrider
When I think back to my own deep discontent.......
I was dissatisfied with twi's policies and hypocrisy......and NO CHANGE was anywhere in sight. All the reasons for my involvement with twi had morphed into THEIR agendas, not mine.
In the end, all I could see was.....TWI LORDING OVER GOD'S HERITAGE.
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