But, even if VP said it was by revelation, and if the revelation was genuine, ... that revelation doesn't guarantee that Craig would walk worthy of the vocation.
Do you think that God giving revelation means the whole fiasco wouldn't have occurred?
I do not think there are any guarantees like that.
Man is weak, sinful; and remember there is still a devil that deceives, steals kills and destroys.
I actually agree with Oldiesman's assessment. Samuel chose Saul by revelation, after all.
Interestingly, this is why I didn't care WHO Wierwille chose to succeed him when I left, and why I nearly laughed out loud when VICE PRESIDENT JOHN RUPP* told me and WordWolf that God chose VPW, VPW chose LCM by revelation, therefore either LCM is right or God is stupid.
And for all those who left in 1989, no matter how many times words are parsed, no matter how many times motives are questioned, no matter how many times names are slandered... history proved us right.
I actually agree with Oldiesman's assessment. Samuel chose Saul by revelation, after all.
Raf,
You should read 1 Sam 8...
1 In his old age Samuel appointed his sons judges over Israel.
2 His first-born was named Joel, his second son, Abijah; they judged at Beer-sheba.
3 His sons did not follow his example but sought illicit gain and accepted bribes, perverting justice.
4 Therefore all the elders of Israel came in a body to Samuel at Ramah
5 and said to him, "Now that you are old, and your sons do not follow your example, appoint a king over us, as other nations have, to judge us."
6 Samuel was displeased when they asked for a king to judge them. He prayed to the LORD, however,
7 who said in answer: "Grant the people's every request. It is not you they reject, they are rejecting me as their king.
8 As they have treated me constantly from the day I brought them up from Egypt to this day, deserting me and worshiping strange gods, so do they treat you too.
9 Now grant their request; but at the same time, warn them solemnly and inform them of the rights of the king who will rule them."
10 Samuel delivered the message of the LORD in full to those who were asking him for a king.
11 He told them: "The rights of the king who will rule you will be as follows: He will take your sons and assign them to his chariots and horses, and they will run before his chariot.
12 He will also appoint from among them his commanders of groups of a thousand and of a hundred soldiers. He will set them to do his plowing and his harvesting, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots.
13 He will use your daughters as ointment-makers, as cooks, and as bakers.
14 He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive groves, and give them to his officials.
15 He will tithe your crops and your vineyards, and give the revenue to his eunuchs and his slaves.
16 He will take your male and female servants, as well as your best oxen and your asses, and use them to do his work.
17 He will tithe your flocks and you yourselves will become his slaves.
18 When this takes place, you will complain against the king whom you have chosen, but on that day the LORD will not answer you."
19 The people, however, refused to listen to Samuel's warning and said, "Not so! There must be a king over us.
20 We too must be like other nations, with a king to rule us and to lead us in warfare and fight our battles."
21 When Samuel had listened to all the people had to say, he repeated it to the LORD,
22 who then said to him, "Grant their request and appoint a king to rule them." Samuel thereupon said to the men of Israel, "Each of you go to his own city."
Having said that, I would submit that God (in his foreknowledge) knew exactly how Saul would turn out when he gave Samuel the revelation to dump oil on Saul's head.
What I'm saying is that the fact that God chose someone for a task does not prove that he won't fudge up later. For all we know, that was part of the "revelation" that God gave Wierwille, too. :)
But seriously, folks.
Jesus Christ personally selected Judas, and look at how he turned out.
Selection by an authority is no guarantee of anything.
No argument there. But that's the point I was trying to drive at (at the cost of derailing the Geer thread). If Wierwille was on the level (a big if), then the failure must have been God-ordained (unless God isn't omniscient, after all). If Wierwille was not on the level -- and if he claimed 'hevvy revvy' about the selection, then he was a fraud. If he, on the other hand, was stating that he was using '5 senses' logic, then wouldn't that have gone against the principles he vaunted continuously? That's why I'd love to find out if, in fact, 'hevvy revvy' was claimed. Not whether people believe he actually received revelation in this case. Just whether he claimed that he did or not.
Heard a lot of discussion in front of The Way Corps by VPW concerning his choice.
VPW never claimed revelation at least publicly in any of the meetings I was privy to-- just gave a lot of other reasons regarding Martindale's discipline, past performance as WOW coordinator, experience with The Way Corps training (both his own and in residence), and as Corps Director. And mostly, he simply allowed Martindale to run off at the mouth about his own incidents in the Corps training, much of them he later related in VeePee and Moi.
This is a spin-off from the Chris Geer thread. Very simple purpose:
Did Wierwille claim that he received revelation to name Martindale as his successor?
This, I honestly don't remember. I do remember the announcement of lcm being the new prez, and him getting his *jollies* by saying how he was the 2nd this, the 2nd that, and so on from the SNS announcement tape (we were on a live phone hook-up also that night here in Duluth). He made it a point to hammer home the fact that his being the 2nd prez of twi followed everything he had done previously, and of course we all know that the number two (Bullinger) means:
ESTABLISHED!!!
well --- he done did *establish it* all right. :(
(ps -- since he is such a sports nut, he shoulda remembered the old sports adage:
I was never in all that close to be 'in the know', being a non corps twig coordinator in Florida at the time. I dont recall VPW ever saying specifically he got revelation although I could be wrong.
I do recall a bunch of the lower management (Region, Limb and Area Coordinators)claiming that he did though--- especially after the loyalty letter came out
As I recall, vpw did not claim "heavy revy" on the martindale choice.......but then again, the IMAGERY OF THE TRANSFERRING OF THE MANTLE was dripping with symbolism of the Elijah/Elisha transfer of power and the double portion to follow!!
Haven't read that Elijah/Elisha account in quite some time......but imo, its a center reference to this discussion since the mantle and oil and prophecy was ceremoniously portrayed and videotaped for the household of The Way.
Wierwille had a very suble manner of portraying imagery while NOT CLAIMING IT AS REVELATION.
“…As I recall, vpw did not claim "heavy revy" on the martindale choice.......but then again, the IMAGERY OF THE TRANSFERRING OF THE MANTLE was dripping with symbolism of the Elijah/Elisha transfer of power and the double portion to follow!!
Haven't read that Elijah/Elisha account in quite some time......but imo, its a center reference to this discussion since the mantle and oil and prophecy was ceremoniously portrayed and videotaped for the household of The Way.
Wierwille had a very suble manner of portraying imagery while NOT CLAIMING IT AS REVELATION…”
From the moment Mark posted the poll, my thinking regarding the VPW to LCM transfer revolved around the TWI-strategically designed explicit & implicit messages sent via the transfer of the supposed mantle of authority. I think by far & away this was VPW’s central concern in the process, even though I think it was bogus, as TWI is bogus. VPW taught on many occasions of the supposed spiritual significance of the transfer of the mantle of the Man of God, most especially in the context of the Elijah to Elisha transfer. On many occasions, within the context of a mantle transfer, VPW did explicitly teach that such a transfer, such a supposedly important spiritual event, would require ‘revelation.’ The explicit teaching regarding such matters intensified from1977 to 1982 after the death of Harry Wierwille, with VPW’s growing realization of his own mortality, despite his teachings on the ‘law of believing,’ & his non-disclosed ocular melanoma with liver metasteses.
The anchoring concept, as noted above, has now been imbedded by set-hooks, & the voice of VPW, by strategic design, would now profoundly resonate in our minds. Now on that day in October 1982 when LCM was installed as the new presidential Man of God, from my recall of the video of the same, VPW does not explicitly state at that time on stage that the transfer is by revelation. However, the implicit message is screaming from the ceremony that the choice and transfer are, by implication & indirection & triggering of the anchor concept, unequivocally by ‘revelation.’
All of the above begs the fundamental underlying consideration that VPW plagiarized his materials from both proximate & remote hermetic arcane sources. There is much material in the arcane regarding spiritual manifestations or emanations. Therefore, at least as taught by TWI, I think the teachings regarding the ‘manifestations,’ including 'revelation,' are not trustworthy.
Therefore the issue of whether VPW claimed ‘revelation’ in the selection of LCM is interesting but irrelevant waylore. The Teutonic Corn Wizard, unser Vater im Word in der Veg, had struck again. Our father, beneath the fountain, hollow be thy name.
Anyone around here hear Wierwille claim to be an apostle?
Similar to the discussion of sucession by revelation being implied, Wierwille's apostleship was also implied.
In PFAL, his unique definition of "apostle" was obviously being applied to him: he claimed that he was teaching 'The Word' like it had not been taught since the first century, and an apostle brought 'new light' to his generation, and as Wierwille added it may be old light, but it's new light to those hearing it.
Did anyone hear Wierwille "ordaining" any "apostles"? Purporting to have ordained any apostles? Asserting that persons involved with TWI were apostles?
Did anyone hear Wierwille "ordaining" any "apostles"? Purporting to have ordained any apostles? Asserting that persons involved with TWI were apostles?
If so, names please.
I don't recall the "gift ministry" ever being specified for anyone being ordained
Edited by Oakspear
Oakspear & Cynic: I agree. The same machinations I mentioned above regarding the transfer of the mantle of authority also applies to VPW's implicit & implied claim that he was supposedly an apostle.
Anyone around here hear Wierwille claim to be an apostle?
Similar to the discussion of sucession by revelation being implied, Wierwille's apostleship was also implied.
In PFAL, his unique definition of "apostle" was obviously being applied to him: he claimed that he was teaching 'The Word' like it had not been taught since the first century, and an apostle brought 'new light' to his generation, and as Wierwille added it may be old light, but it's new light to those hearing it.
That's exactly how I saw it.
An apostle is a SENT ONE.
vpw came out of NOWHERE with this
"an apostle brings new light to his generation.
It may be old light, but to the generation, it is new light."
Absolutely NO verses were used to support this, you may recall.
Each ministry was just DEFINED.
vpw made up this convoluted definition so that it would
apply to him as he was seen by others.
He then left it unstated for others to connect-the-dots.
(Of course, since everything he taught was CURRENT and
available ELSEWHERE, he didn't even fit his OWN
definition, except by propaganda.)
He called himself "THE Teacher",
defined "apostle" so it could be applied to him,
and did the SAME to "evangelist".
He said an evangelist is one who PRIMARILY get the
other Christians fired up for witnessing, NOT that THEY
do the witnessing.
Funny how it allows HIM to get the title without going
on the field.
Among some people, he claimed to "pastor" them
in private. (Ask Ex C how well that worked.)
That leaves "prophet", or "one who speaks for God".
No argument there. But that's the point I was trying to drive at (at the cost of derailing the Geer thread). If Wierwille was on the level (a big if), then the failure must have been God-ordained (unless God isn't omniscient, after all).
God knowing whether we are going to succeed or fail doesn't mean we don't still have the opportunity to try. That's why I think Oldies' and Raf's remarks are on target.
God knowing whether we are going to succeed or fail doesn't mean we don't still have the opportunity to try. That's why I think Oldies' and Raf's remarks are on target.
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oldiesman
Mark, I do not recall, myself.
But, even if VP said it was by revelation, and if the revelation was genuine, ... that revelation doesn't guarantee that Craig would walk worthy of the vocation.
Do you think that God giving revelation means the whole fiasco wouldn't have occurred?
I do not think there are any guarantees like that.
Man is weak, sinful; and remember there is still a devil that deceives, steals kills and destroys.
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Raf
I actually agree with Oldiesman's assessment. Samuel chose Saul by revelation, after all.
Interestingly, this is why I didn't care WHO Wierwille chose to succeed him when I left, and why I nearly laughed out loud when VICE PRESIDENT JOHN RUPP* told me and WordWolf that God chose VPW, VPW chose LCM by revelation, therefore either LCM is right or God is stupid.
And for all those who left in 1989, no matter how many times words are parsed, no matter how many times motives are questioned, no matter how many times names are slandered... history proved us right.
* he was not vice president at the time.
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markomalley
Raf,
You should read 1 Sam 8...
Having said that, I would submit that God (in his foreknowledge) knew exactly how Saul would turn out when he gave Samuel the revelation to dump oil on Saul's head.
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Raf
What I'm saying is that the fact that God chose someone for a task does not prove that he won't fudge up later. For all we know, that was part of the "revelation" that God gave Wierwille, too. :)
But seriously, folks.
Jesus Christ personally selected Judas, and look at how he turned out.
Selection by an authority is no guarantee of anything.
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markomalley
Raf,
No argument there. But that's the point I was trying to drive at (at the cost of derailing the Geer thread). If Wierwille was on the level (a big if), then the failure must have been God-ordained (unless God isn't omniscient, after all). If Wierwille was not on the level -- and if he claimed 'hevvy revvy' about the selection, then he was a fraud. If he, on the other hand, was stating that he was using '5 senses' logic, then wouldn't that have gone against the principles he vaunted continuously? That's why I'd love to find out if, in fact, 'hevvy revvy' was claimed. Not whether people believe he actually received revelation in this case. Just whether he claimed that he did or not.
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Raf
I see your point.
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Catcup
Heard a lot of discussion in front of The Way Corps by VPW concerning his choice.
VPW never claimed revelation at least publicly in any of the meetings I was privy to-- just gave a lot of other reasons regarding Martindale's discipline, past performance as WOW coordinator, experience with The Way Corps training (both his own and in residence), and as Corps Director. And mostly, he simply allowed Martindale to run off at the mouth about his own incidents in the Corps training, much of them he later related in VeePee and Moi.
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dmiller
This, I honestly don't remember. I do remember the announcement of lcm being the new prez, and him getting his *jollies* by saying how he was the 2nd this, the 2nd that, and so on from the SNS announcement tape (we were on a live phone hook-up also that night here in Duluth). He made it a point to hammer home the fact that his being the 2nd prez of twi followed everything he had done previously, and of course we all know that the number two (Bullinger) means:
ESTABLISHED!!!
well --- he done did *establish it* all right. :(
(ps -- since he is such a sports nut, he shoulda remembered the old sports adage:
"2nd place means you are the first loser."
David
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mstar1
I was never in all that close to be 'in the know', being a non corps twig coordinator in Florida at the time. I dont recall VPW ever saying specifically he got revelation although I could be wrong.
I do recall a bunch of the lower management (Region, Limb and Area Coordinators)claiming that he did though--- especially after the loyalty letter came out
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skyrider
As I recall, vpw did not claim "heavy revy" on the martindale choice.......but then again, the IMAGERY OF THE TRANSFERRING OF THE MANTLE was dripping with symbolism of the Elijah/Elisha transfer of power and the double portion to follow!!
Haven't read that Elijah/Elisha account in quite some time......but imo, its a center reference to this discussion since the mantle and oil and prophecy was ceremoniously portrayed and videotaped for the household of The Way.
Wierwille had a very suble manner of portraying imagery while NOT CLAIMING IT AS REVELATION.
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Cynic
Anyone around here hear Wierwille claim to be an apostle?
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jkboehme
Per Skyrider:
********************************************************************************
*****************
From the moment Mark posted the poll, my thinking regarding the VPW to LCM transfer revolved around the TWI-strategically designed explicit & implicit messages sent via the transfer of the supposed mantle of authority. I think by far & away this was VPW’s central concern in the process, even though I think it was bogus, as TWI is bogus. VPW taught on many occasions of the supposed spiritual significance of the transfer of the mantle of the Man of God, most especially in the context of the Elijah to Elisha transfer. On many occasions, within the context of a mantle transfer, VPW did explicitly teach that such a transfer, such a supposedly important spiritual event, would require ‘revelation.’ The explicit teaching regarding such matters intensified from1977 to 1982 after the death of Harry Wierwille, with VPW’s growing realization of his own mortality, despite his teachings on the ‘law of believing,’ & his non-disclosed ocular melanoma with liver metasteses.
The anchoring concept, as noted above, has now been imbedded by set-hooks, & the voice of VPW, by strategic design, would now profoundly resonate in our minds. Now on that day in October 1982 when LCM was installed as the new presidential Man of God, from my recall of the video of the same, VPW does not explicitly state at that time on stage that the transfer is by revelation. However, the implicit message is screaming from the ceremony that the choice and transfer are, by implication & indirection & triggering of the anchor concept, unequivocally by ‘revelation.’
All of the above begs the fundamental underlying consideration that VPW plagiarized his materials from both proximate & remote hermetic arcane sources. There is much material in the arcane regarding spiritual manifestations or emanations. Therefore, at least as taught by TWI, I think the teachings regarding the ‘manifestations,’ including 'revelation,' are not trustworthy.
Therefore the issue of whether VPW claimed ‘revelation’ in the selection of LCM is interesting but irrelevant waylore. The Teutonic Corn Wizard, unser Vater im Word in der Veg, had struck again. Our father, beneath the fountain, hollow be thy name.
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Oakspear
In PFAL, his unique definition of "apostle" was obviously being applied to him: he claimed that he was teaching 'The Word' like it had not been taught since the first century, and an apostle brought 'new light' to his generation, and as Wierwille added it may be old light, but it's new light to those hearing it.
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Cynic
More questions:
Did anyone hear Wierwille "ordaining" any "apostles"? Purporting to have ordained any apostles? Asserting that persons involved with TWI were apostles?
If so, names please.
*****
Oakspear,
Valid point.
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excathedra
did anyone ever hear wierwille telling how many girls he got in the sack.... a few of which became apostles....
this is a new comment but i think it will show up in my last post
snort snort ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hah a the story of his friggin lifeLink to comment
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Oakspear
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jkboehme
Oakspear & Cynic: I agree. The same machinations I mentioned above regarding the transfer of the mantle of authority also applies to VPW's implicit & implied claim that he was supposedly an apostle.
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WordWolf
That's exactly how I saw it.
An apostle is a SENT ONE.
vpw came out of NOWHERE with this
"an apostle brings new light to his generation.
It may be old light, but to the generation, it is new light."
Absolutely NO verses were used to support this, you may recall.
Each ministry was just DEFINED.
vpw made up this convoluted definition so that it would
apply to him as he was seen by others.
He then left it unstated for others to connect-the-dots.
(Of course, since everything he taught was CURRENT and
available ELSEWHERE, he didn't even fit his OWN
definition, except by propaganda.)
He called himself "THE Teacher",
defined "apostle" so it could be applied to him,
and did the SAME to "evangelist".
He said an evangelist is one who PRIMARILY get the
other Christians fired up for witnessing, NOT that THEY
do the witnessing.
Funny how it allows HIM to get the title without going
on the field.
Among some people, he claimed to "pastor" them
in private. (Ask Ex C how well that worked.)
That leaves "prophet", or "one who speaks for God".
Anyone think he didn't want himself seen as
"one who speaks for God"?
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Oakspear
I define "apostle" as 'one who sits at a keyboard commenting on his cult days'....
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Lifted Up
God knowing whether we are going to succeed or fail doesn't mean we don't still have the opportunity to try. That's why I think Oldies' and Raf's remarks are on target.
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markomalley
Sure you have the opportunity to try. Absolutely.
But try what?
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