A short time before I moved away from my wife, I had received emails from several GSers who were in similar situations: people who were out of twi, either in fact or in heart, were posting on Grease Spot, and who had spouses who were "in". I maintained email contact with several of these people.
One of the things that led to my despair, and considering suicide was the feeling that had been hammered into me that I was no good, that everything that had happened to me was because I was a bad person, who had single-handedly screwed up my whole life.
After exchanging emails with one of the aforementioned GSErs, (who will reamain anonymous unless she chooses not to) I realized that my experiences were not unique. I saw similar patterns of manipulation by twi leadership; meddling and interference was in some instances marked by virtually identical words! Our spouses were saying the same or similar things to us.
What this opened my eyes to was a pattern of twi leaders attempting to break marriages as a method of control.
While I am not so naive to think that I had a perfect marriage that would have been fairy tale perfect without twi, I realized what they had done, or attempted to do, and it made me ANGRY.
It also made me realize that although I was flawed, and took responsible for my own problems and their consequenses, I was not a bad person, and I was going to live.
Okay, the suspense is probably killing you: I no longer considered suicide, and I emerged from a two-week roaring drunk in one sane piece.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Some, but not all of this is covered to some extent in earlier posts
Although from time to time I had doubts about Way teachings, or thought some things weren't explained in the way, or even had problems with individual leaders, I never seriously considered chucking the whole thing until after the lawsuit announcements.
Things that I did not agree with, or did not understand, I was always willing to "hold in abeyance" until I understood it better.
My first reaction, when I heard the announcement in a "special meeting", was anger. How could Martindale do such a thing? I remember my actions being referred to as "treacherous" when I was put on probation a little over a year earlier, and was resentful that everyone was in a such a forgiving and understanding mood. Before I went home that evening, I had calmed down somewhat , and was in a forgiving mood myself. Of course I was unaware at the time of other allegations, nor did I realize what a butt covering circus it would all become.
That night, despite being told that we didn't need to check the internet for information about the lawsuit, I went to the internet.
I was sick to my stomach.
Over the next few weeks I checked out several anti-Way and ex-Way sites, trying to digest and make sense of the many accusations against Martindale, twi, and even VP Wierwille. Eventually I settled on WayDale because of the frequent updates regarding the lawsuit and the high-level defections.
After a few weeks, I started perusing the forums, seeing the ebb and flow of discussions, and starting to see how real it all was - this just wasn't some anti-cult propaganda by some mainstream church, but stories that had the ring of truth by people like me.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Initially, even after I began posting, I did not fully believe that I had been involved in a harmful organization.
I rationalized that Martindale had erred, and that the other Trustees were on uncharted ground with this lawsuit (again, I didn't have all the information)- I even expressed admiration with Martindale's decision to resign, reasoning that he was taking the spotlight off the "ministry".
During this time I occassionally posted incidents in various threads, but didn't really jump on an anti-Way bandwagon.
It really wasn't until Martindale was expelled from the Corps and "defrocked", and put on probation, that I began to seriously question what was going on.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Something just wasn't right about the explanations we were getting.
At first, we were told that:
1. It was a consensual "affair", it was implied that it was a one-time "affair".
2. It had ended a year previously
3. Martindale had been confronted according to "the Word" and had apologized to all involved
4. He had been forgiven by his wife and the Trustees
5. The Allens had refused his apology and offer of "help" and left
So, if everything had been handled to everyone's satisfaction (except the Allen's) why was Martindale being thrown out? No explanation was ever given. What had happened between the time that Martindale was allowed to remain as a Corps grad in the "research department" and the time he was booted?
Of course, since certain court documents were posted, we saw that it wasn't really consenual, it wasn't a one-time deal, he was still doing it, and that Martindale claimed in his deposition that Rivenbark and other knew about his dalliances.
It just didn't make sense
That was got me started seriously questioning practices and doctrines of twi
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:36.]
Keep in mind that during this time, we were forbidden to talk about the lawsuits after fellowship meetings, and most people didn't want to talk about it in private. Local leadership didn't know anything and region and trunk leadership were covering their own butts
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 15, 2002 at 18:53.]
I understand your questions and your feelings. Even though I was at HQ during the time that the **** hit the fan, I don't understand all. Only those intimately involved do.
One point I have thought of over the past few years about what actually happened and why it was handled as it was. All Wayfers worshipped and adored LCM. If we were still in TWI after the fog years, we were extremely thankful for his life because of the "cleanup" he did on the ministry. I do see some beneficial aspects of his cleanup, although I do not agree with the way he handled not being unequally yoked, homos, getting into people's money life, personal life, families, etc. He was a BIG *** BOTTLE OF HYPOCRICASY. He aired other people's dirty laundry in public forum, and he even embarrassed them while they were in the room. I feel he should have been handled the same. All of the dirty little details with him being humiliated. I still feel this way.
Understanding that he was the MOG, RFR had to hold the bag with the BS he left her holding. Don't get me wrong; I don't agree with withholding of information like this. I understand that not all was told because she wanted to protect the MOG whether she was right or wrong. Of course, if she knew as early at 1995, she was wrong--DEAD WRONG! We were all taught that if someone is confronted and do not change, there's a problem and they were mark and avoid.
I believe LCM should have been exposed much earlier since he had such a holier than thou attitude. He caused a lot of people pain (families that broke up because of LCM's promiscuity, and those who left with their tails between their legs because they "didn't measure up.") It's a shame it was all handled this way. But we know that God is the Searcher of hearts and vengence is His. Those who haven't fessed up will have to live with their wrongs. It hurt a lot of people.
We all just have to move on and get healing. If anyting I learned, don't look up to a man so much that you don't believe he could do wrong. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. We should never be so naive.
The first phase of my questioning involved Martindale's fitness to teach anything.
One of the things Martindale himself taught was that if you were in debt, and not trying diligently to get out of it, God would not give you revelation.
During the time that Martindale was putting together all of his new classes, he was of the opinion that having sex with another man's wife was okay. Is this somehow not as bad as debt? Despite the fact that he later supposedly apologized and everybody kissed and made up, during the time he was researching and teaching these classes, according to his own stated timetable, he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP.
So, how could he have
1. Been able to accurately put together a foundational class?
2. Been able to recieve the amazing revelation that the "Word" was over the world", and all that went along with that?
3. Been able to spiritually discern the so-called "homo infiltration" of the WOW program and twi in general?
It just doesn't fit, does it?
If there is this big question mark, then shouldn't everything that Martindale taught be subjected to intensive scrutiny, even assume it was wrong until proven otherwise?
The new Board of Trustees apparently didn't think so.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:39.]
"Leadership" seemed to want to pretend that nothing had happened. Once Martindale was gone, no one ever mentioned him again. You couldn't talk about it after fellowship. The prevailing mood seemed to be to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that nothing had happened.
For a long time, I just bided my time, hoping that someone was checking out Martindale's pronouncements and classes, while logging into Waydale to get the latest news. I was willing to give them time, since it was a somewhat unique situation.
As the months went by I started getting more and more irritated at the lack of information from "official" Way sources and the growing mountain of stories coming out of Waydale and later GreaseSpotCafe. I gradually grew to trust Waydale as a more credible source than my leadership, especially after I read about Don Wierwille's death on the internet five days before it was announced at fellowship.
In January 2001 a new teaching series was to begin. Each Sunday a different segment of Martindale's The Way of Abundance and Power foundational class would be covered. This would take 24 weeks, and then they would move into the intermediate class.
I decided to start checking the syllabus for accuracy one segment at a time, allowing myself a week per segment so I could follow along with what they were teaching on the STS. I evaluated what Martindale taught by his own standards: the keys to research taught in PFAL and in his own WayAP class. I didn't even begin to take into consideration non-Way points of view. I looked forward to seeing some changes taught on the STS as well.
As I started working my way through the syllabus, the factual errors, misrepresentations, and outright lies began to multiply. I started to see that Martindale frequently claimed that the "original" or "the text" said one thing, but there was absolutely no evidense of his claim. Even concordances, interlinears and lexicons sold and promoted by the Way did not back him up.
There were incredible leaps of illogic where the facts did not add up to the conclusion that he drew.
What really got my attention was when I was asked to teach the segment The Face of the Deep at a fellowship. I worked that subject forward and backward, and, using Way methodology, and assuming that the bible was accurate, I came up with a completely different teaching than what Martindale did. I taught it my way at fellowship, and no one noticed the difference. I even gave the correct definition of the "Big bang" model of the universe, correcting Martindale's incorrect explanation from the syllabus. One person did ask me why I had left out a certain point that Martindale made in the syllabus, and I told her "Because it is not in The Word".
The other main subject that I dissected pretty thoroughly was The Original Sin of Mankind. There was so much "private interpretation" and assorted hogwash in that segment that it was difficult to keep up with!
In investigating Martindale's teachings, I naturally went back to some of Wierwille's teachings that they were based on; I started finding some of the same problems there also.
At this point my faith in the reliability of The3 Way's foundational teaching material was undermined completely.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Now, at this time, I still pretty much agreed with VP's (or Bullinger's or whoever's) keys to researching the bible. It was these keys, taught by twi, that I used to find errors and inconsistancies.
I want to emphasize that at this point I was not comparing PFAL and WayAP to mainstream Christianity, or to any other religous system, but comparing their own words to their own words!
Using Vp's and LCM's own standards there were great gaping holes in the fabric of their teachings.
For example, show me one Hebrew text where the first word is "God" as VP claimed. Just one.
Stuff like that just started irking me.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:50.]
I saw with my own eyes the error that was being taught. The STS teachings backed up the syllabus, nothing had changed.
My efforts had uncovered ten pages of errors (not errors of interpretaion, but errors pertaining to what was actually in the text, meanings of words, representations of scientific theories, and faulty logic.)If I could come up with that, I found it hard to be believe that all the top dogs at HQ couldn't find even one thing wrong with anything that Martindale taught.
Martindale's pronouncements as well, like "The Word is over the world", and we are entering into the "promised land of the prevailing Word" were still being acted upon as if they were revelation from God.
I asked a lot of people questions: my wife didn't want to discuss my doubts, so I went to our HFC. He didn't know anything. Eventually I talked directly with John Reynolds, who referred me back to my Region Coordinator, T*m H******s, who supposedly would be able to answer my questions, since he would be teaching WayAP live in my home town. TH insisted that he did not need to check out anything for himself since the Trustees had okayed it, which was good enough for him.
Shortly thereafter I sat through his (TH's) live version of WayAP, which was doctrinally identical to Martindale's. There was no deviation from the syllabus. No doctrinal changes.
Shortly thereafter I was thrown out of twi for "believing that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the wrong direction".
They used my own honest questions against me.
So much for questioning
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:55.]
I was firmly convinced that you couldn't trust anything that Martindale taught, and soon came to the same conclusion about Wierwille.
This is not to say that I thought that everything that they taught was wrong, just that it would all have to be re-examined, that it couldn't be trusted.
Around this time I started looking into information from various "offshoots", "splinters", etc. I was amazed at how many different conclusion could be drawn, while using the same basic tools taught in PFAL. I came to the conclusion that i couldn't even trust or count on the methods used to study the bible and come to conclusions about it. Add to that the multitude of differing denominations, and I soon came to the conclusion that I couldn't be certain that Christianity in any form was right. I barely hung onto a belief that there was even a God.
That's where I stand now, basically an agnostic: I don't know
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Over the months I grew more used to not being in twi any longer. I started making non-Way friends and getting more serious about my work (instead of arranging my work schedule around "ministry events")
I made it through the first round of holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's by working a lot of hours at work, plus the second job, and by some mutual support by a great friend here at Grease Spot. Her call on Christmas Day made my month.
I reconciled with my parents and siblings, aplogizing to them for being a jerk to them while "in". I went to visit them this summer, meeting three nieces, two nephews and a brother-in-law that I had never met before.
On the same trip I stopped to visit several GSers along with their spouses. It was an incredible time to compare notes and see just what life could be outside the Way; it was very encouraging.
Another encouraging bit of news is that although my wife is still very Waybrained and loyal to twi, she has not attended a fellowship for quite a while. She has reasons that I won't discuss here, but oddly, still considers me a "copout" and herself as "being in the household".
The result is that my children do not have to attend fellowships. They did not really want to anyway, and do not at all miss it.
Every day is a new day, full of new challenges and joys. They're a lot better outside the way, than inside.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 21:01.]
Oakspear, thank you so much for sharing your life with us. I know it has not been an easy road.
My life before and after twi has been much easier than yours; I am thankful to God for that for my sake but am so sorry for the things that you have endured.
Hold your head up and things are going to get better......You have alot of people here at GS on your side.
It's been about ten months since I posted on this thread.
I'm finally divorced.
My ex-wife still has no contact with TWI, but I believe she still receives the mag and tapes. Happy to say none of the kids has anything to do with TWI, or wants to. My son who joined the Navy is in fact very much anti-TWI and recognizes the evil that they perpetrated.
I have been very sucessful at my job, since I have now been giving it due attention, rather than putting going to meetings first.
I've made many friends, some of whom are committed Christians of various denominations, some agnostics, a couple of atheists, a few Muslims, and one pagan. I feel richer by knowing them all.
Yeah, I'm still an agnostic and enjoy the debates in the doctrinal section, but am keeping my mind open to seeing God at work.
Life is good. I'm happy.
I'm not in a cult anymore
See Ya at The Roast
Oakspear
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 02, 2003 at 14:24.]
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 05, 2003 at 0:03.]
I enjoyed your story the first time around, and even more re-reading it. I think you speak for many of us, with your adolescent longings and doubts that first were allowed expression in The Way, then stifled. I'm glad you've found peace. You deserve all the happiness that comes your way.
Thank you. You know I feel a definite affinity for you and what you've pulled yourself out of. It's great to see that life can go on and it can be good.
If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it
I just read this whole thread again... Thanks, Tom - I'm so glad you are doing so well. Amazing, isn't it, how sanely we think without the scales of TWI covering our eyes?
Wish I could meet you at the "weenie roast". :)-->
I read your story and I do not know which part affected me most. The Wow story with the town throwing ROCKS at you!
Your highlander leader more interested in hurting people than helping them.... The fact that they MA'd you and your marraige fell apart...
WOW! Just WOW!
Thank you for sharing. I have enjoyed your posts but now have a greater understanding of your personal story. Reading it I felt like I was right there with you.
I am thankful you are happy. I am thankful you survived. I am so glad you come here to hang out. Bless you!
One of the local churches staged a "Jericho March", walking around our block every night for seven nights, etc, like in the Book of Joshua. I don't know if our house was supposed to fall down or what. <BR><BR>
Holy cow, Oak, this is hilarious. At the time were you discouraged?Scared? This would have freaked me out if I was there on the WOW field, but now reading about this, can't stop laughing.
Sorry you had to go through all that. They (TWI) suck.
When we noticed it, my WOW bro' and I crawled outside and hid in the bushes and watched people go by 2 by 2. After awhile he told me "wait here", got up and joined the parade! Since they were spread pretty far apart, he was not noticed until he marched back into the church with them, sat in a pew and held hands with the church goers on either side. If I remember correctly he slipped out quietly after being recognized :o
On one hand we were discouraged that we were not seeing any "fruit" during this part of our WOW year, but some of us started to develop a "martyr complex", where we figured that the devil must be mad because of the truth that we were speaking, which was why we were getting this flack.
Most of the time I thought it was pretty funny, like when church members would approach us in public (sometimes where we worked) and say in a loud voice "I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!; but there were a few dangerous incidents, like rock throwing, almost getting run down by cars, and a few close calls with guys who seriously wanted to kick my foot!
Thanks for sharing your story, Oakspear. I admire your bravery in checking out TWI’s doctrines and in speaking up about it – I was such a wimp while I was in it – couldn’t imagine myself doing something like that! Besides I was so bedazzled by VPW’s presentation [as you put it] I didn’t even notice any inconsistencies [TWI fed and brain dead!] – which reminds me of another thing I liked throughout your story – revealing your process of analytical thinking...Also enjoyed listening to what you had to say on a couple of those Grease Spot Radio episodes.
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Oakspear
A short time before I moved away from my wife, I had received emails from several GSers who were in similar situations: people who were out of twi, either in fact or in heart, were posting on Grease Spot, and who had spouses who were "in". I maintained email contact with several of these people.
One of the things that led to my despair, and considering suicide was the feeling that had been hammered into me that I was no good, that everything that had happened to me was because I was a bad person, who had single-handedly screwed up my whole life.
After exchanging emails with one of the aforementioned GSErs, (who will reamain anonymous unless she chooses not to) I realized that my experiences were not unique. I saw similar patterns of manipulation by twi leadership; meddling and interference was in some instances marked by virtually identical words! Our spouses were saying the same or similar things to us.
What this opened my eyes to was a pattern of twi leaders attempting to break marriages as a method of control.
While I am not so naive to think that I had a perfect marriage that would have been fairy tale perfect without twi, I realized what they had done, or attempted to do, and it made me ANGRY.
It also made me realize that although I was flawed, and took responsible for my own problems and their consequenses, I was not a bad person, and I was going to live.
Okay, the suspense is probably killing you: I no longer considered suicide, and I emerged from a two-week roaring drunk in one sane piece.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
Some, but not all of this is covered to some extent in earlier posts
Although from time to time I had doubts about Way teachings, or thought some things weren't explained in the way, or even had problems with individual leaders, I never seriously considered chucking the whole thing until after the lawsuit announcements.
Things that I did not agree with, or did not understand, I was always willing to "hold in abeyance" until I understood it better.
My first reaction, when I heard the announcement in a "special meeting", was anger. How could Martindale do such a thing? I remember my actions being referred to as "treacherous" when I was put on probation a little over a year earlier, and was resentful that everyone was in a such a forgiving and understanding mood. Before I went home that evening, I had calmed down somewhat , and was in a forgiving mood myself. Of course I was unaware at the time of other allegations, nor did I realize what a butt covering circus it would all become.
That night, despite being told that we didn't need to check the internet for information about the lawsuit, I went to the internet.
I was sick to my stomach.
Over the next few weeks I checked out several anti-Way and ex-Way sites, trying to digest and make sense of the many accusations against Martindale, twi, and even VP Wierwille. Eventually I settled on WayDale because of the frequent updates regarding the lawsuit and the high-level defections.
After a few weeks, I started perusing the forums, seeing the ebb and flow of discussions, and starting to see how real it all was - this just wasn't some anti-cult propaganda by some mainstream church, but stories that had the ring of truth by people like me.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
Initially, even after I began posting, I did not fully believe that I had been involved in a harmful organization.
I rationalized that Martindale had erred, and that the other Trustees were on uncharted ground with this lawsuit (again, I didn't have all the information)- I even expressed admiration with Martindale's decision to resign, reasoning that he was taking the spotlight off the "ministry".
During this time I occassionally posted incidents in various threads, but didn't really jump on an anti-Way bandwagon.
It really wasn't until Martindale was expelled from the Corps and "defrocked", and put on probation, that I began to seriously question what was going on.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
Something just wasn't right about the explanations we were getting.
At first, we were told that:
1. It was a consensual "affair", it was implied that it was a one-time "affair".
2. It had ended a year previously
3. Martindale had been confronted according to "the Word" and had apologized to all involved
4. He had been forgiven by his wife and the Trustees
5. The Allens had refused his apology and offer of "help" and left
So, if everything had been handled to everyone's satisfaction (except the Allen's) why was Martindale being thrown out? No explanation was ever given. What had happened between the time that Martindale was allowed to remain as a Corps grad in the "research department" and the time he was booted?
Of course, since certain court documents were posted, we saw that it wasn't really consenual, it wasn't a one-time deal, he was still doing it, and that Martindale claimed in his deposition that Rivenbark and other knew about his dalliances.
It just didn't make sense
That was got me started seriously questioning practices and doctrines of twi
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:36.]
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Oakspear
Keep in mind that during this time, we were forbidden to talk about the lawsuits after fellowship meetings, and most people didn't want to talk about it in private. Local leadership didn't know anything and region and trunk leadership were covering their own butts
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 15, 2002 at 18:53.]
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wayferlookin
Oakspear,
I understand your questions and your feelings. Even though I was at HQ during the time that the **** hit the fan, I don't understand all. Only those intimately involved do.
One point I have thought of over the past few years about what actually happened and why it was handled as it was. All Wayfers worshipped and adored LCM. If we were still in TWI after the fog years, we were extremely thankful for his life because of the "cleanup" he did on the ministry. I do see some beneficial aspects of his cleanup, although I do not agree with the way he handled not being unequally yoked, homos, getting into people's money life, personal life, families, etc. He was a BIG *** BOTTLE OF HYPOCRICASY. He aired other people's dirty laundry in public forum, and he even embarrassed them while they were in the room. I feel he should have been handled the same. All of the dirty little details with him being humiliated. I still feel this way.
Understanding that he was the MOG, RFR had to hold the bag with the BS he left her holding. Don't get me wrong; I don't agree with withholding of information like this. I understand that not all was told because she wanted to protect the MOG whether she was right or wrong. Of course, if she knew as early at 1995, she was wrong--DEAD WRONG! We were all taught that if someone is confronted and do not change, there's a problem and they were mark and avoid.
I believe LCM should have been exposed much earlier since he had such a holier than thou attitude. He caused a lot of people pain (families that broke up because of LCM's promiscuity, and those who left with their tails between their legs because they "didn't measure up.") It's a shame it was all handled this way. But we know that God is the Searcher of hearts and vengence is His. Those who haven't fessed up will have to live with their wrongs. It hurt a lot of people.
We all just have to move on and get healing. If anyting I learned, don't look up to a man so much that you don't believe he could do wrong. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. We should never be so naive.
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Oakspear
The first phase of my questioning involved Martindale's fitness to teach anything.
One of the things Martindale himself taught was that if you were in debt, and not trying diligently to get out of it, God would not give you revelation.
During the time that Martindale was putting together all of his new classes, he was of the opinion that having sex with another man's wife was okay. Is this somehow not as bad as debt? Despite the fact that he later supposedly apologized and everybody kissed and made up, during the time he was researching and teaching these classes, according to his own stated timetable, he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP.
So, how could he have
1. Been able to accurately put together a foundational class?
2. Been able to recieve the amazing revelation that the "Word" was over the world", and all that went along with that?
3. Been able to spiritually discern the so-called "homo infiltration" of the WOW program and twi in general?
It just doesn't fit, does it?
If there is this big question mark, then shouldn't everything that Martindale taught be subjected to intensive scrutiny, even assume it was wrong until proven otherwise?
The new Board of Trustees apparently didn't think so.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:39.]
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Oakspear
No one, I mean no one, seemed to know anything.
"Leadership" seemed to want to pretend that nothing had happened. Once Martindale was gone, no one ever mentioned him again. You couldn't talk about it after fellowship. The prevailing mood seemed to be to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that nothing had happened.
For a long time, I just bided my time, hoping that someone was checking out Martindale's pronouncements and classes, while logging into Waydale to get the latest news. I was willing to give them time, since it was a somewhat unique situation.
As the months went by I started getting more and more irritated at the lack of information from "official" Way sources and the growing mountain of stories coming out of Waydale and later GreaseSpotCafe. I gradually grew to trust Waydale as a more credible source than my leadership, especially after I read about Don Wierwille's death on the internet five days before it was announced at fellowship.
In January 2001 a new teaching series was to begin. Each Sunday a different segment of Martindale's The Way of Abundance and Power foundational class would be covered. This would take 24 weeks, and then they would move into the intermediate class.
I decided to start checking the syllabus for accuracy one segment at a time, allowing myself a week per segment so I could follow along with what they were teaching on the STS. I evaluated what Martindale taught by his own standards: the keys to research taught in PFAL and in his own WayAP class. I didn't even begin to take into consideration non-Way points of view. I looked forward to seeing some changes taught on the STS as well.
As I started working my way through the syllabus, the factual errors, misrepresentations, and outright lies began to multiply. I started to see that Martindale frequently claimed that the "original" or "the text" said one thing, but there was absolutely no evidense of his claim. Even concordances, interlinears and lexicons sold and promoted by the Way did not back him up.
There were incredible leaps of illogic where the facts did not add up to the conclusion that he drew.
What really got my attention was when I was asked to teach the segment The Face of the Deep at a fellowship. I worked that subject forward and backward, and, using Way methodology, and assuming that the bible was accurate, I came up with a completely different teaching than what Martindale did. I taught it my way at fellowship, and no one noticed the difference. I even gave the correct definition of the "Big bang" model of the universe, correcting Martindale's incorrect explanation from the syllabus. One person did ask me why I had left out a certain point that Martindale made in the syllabus, and I told her "Because it is not in The Word".
The other main subject that I dissected pretty thoroughly was The Original Sin of Mankind. There was so much "private interpretation" and assorted hogwash in that segment that it was difficult to keep up with!
In investigating Martindale's teachings, I naturally went back to some of Wierwille's teachings that they were based on; I started finding some of the same problems there also.
At this point my faith in the reliability of The3 Way's foundational teaching material was undermined completely.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
Now, at this time, I still pretty much agreed with VP's (or Bullinger's or whoever's) keys to researching the bible. It was these keys, taught by twi, that I used to find errors and inconsistancies.
I want to emphasize that at this point I was not comparing PFAL and WayAP to mainstream Christianity, or to any other religous system, but comparing their own words to their own words!
Using Vp's and LCM's own standards there were great gaping holes in the fabric of their teachings.
For example, show me one Hebrew text where the first word is "God" as VP claimed. Just one.
Stuff like that just started irking me.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:50.]
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Oakspear
I was so confused.
I saw with my own eyes the error that was being taught. The STS teachings backed up the syllabus, nothing had changed.
My efforts had uncovered ten pages of errors (not errors of interpretaion, but errors pertaining to what was actually in the text, meanings of words, representations of scientific theories, and faulty logic.)If I could come up with that, I found it hard to be believe that all the top dogs at HQ couldn't find even one thing wrong with anything that Martindale taught.
Martindale's pronouncements as well, like "The Word is over the world", and we are entering into the "promised land of the prevailing Word" were still being acted upon as if they were revelation from God.
I asked a lot of people questions: my wife didn't want to discuss my doubts, so I went to our HFC. He didn't know anything. Eventually I talked directly with John Reynolds, who referred me back to my Region Coordinator, T*m H******s, who supposedly would be able to answer my questions, since he would be teaching WayAP live in my home town. TH insisted that he did not need to check out anything for himself since the Trustees had okayed it, which was good enough for him.
Shortly thereafter I sat through his (TH's) live version of WayAP, which was doctrinally identical to Martindale's. There was no deviation from the syllabus. No doctrinal changes.
Shortly thereafter I was thrown out of twi for "believing that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the wrong direction".
They used my own honest questions against me.
So much for questioning
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:55.]
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Oakspear
I was firmly convinced that you couldn't trust anything that Martindale taught, and soon came to the same conclusion about Wierwille.
This is not to say that I thought that everything that they taught was wrong, just that it would all have to be re-examined, that it couldn't be trusted.
Around this time I started looking into information from various "offshoots", "splinters", etc. I was amazed at how many different conclusion could be drawn, while using the same basic tools taught in PFAL. I came to the conclusion that i couldn't even trust or count on the methods used to study the bible and come to conclusions about it. Add to that the multitude of differing denominations, and I soon came to the conclusion that I couldn't be certain that Christianity in any form was right. I barely hung onto a belief that there was even a God.
That's where I stand now, basically an agnostic: I don't know
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
Over the months I grew more used to not being in twi any longer. I started making non-Way friends and getting more serious about my work (instead of arranging my work schedule around "ministry events")
I made it through the first round of holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's by working a lot of hours at work, plus the second job, and by some mutual support by a great friend here at Grease Spot. Her call on Christmas Day made my month.
I reconciled with my parents and siblings, aplogizing to them for being a jerk to them while "in". I went to visit them this summer, meeting three nieces, two nephews and a brother-in-law that I had never met before.
On the same trip I stopped to visit several GSers along with their spouses. It was an incredible time to compare notes and see just what life could be outside the Way; it was very encouraging.
Another encouraging bit of news is that although my wife is still very Waybrained and loyal to twi, she has not attended a fellowship for quite a while. She has reasons that I won't discuss here, but oddly, still considers me a "copout" and herself as "being in the household".
The result is that my children do not have to attend fellowships. They did not really want to anyway, and do not at all miss it.
Every day is a new day, full of new challenges and joys. They're a lot better outside the way, than inside.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 21:01.]
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act2
Oakspear, thank you so much for sharing your life with us. I know it has not been an easy road.
My life before and after twi has been much easier than yours; I am thankful to God for that for my sake but am so sorry for the things that you have endured.
Hold your head up and things are going to get better......You have alot of people here at GS on your side.
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Oakspear
It's been about ten months since I posted on this thread.
I'm finally divorced.
My ex-wife still has no contact with TWI, but I believe she still receives the mag and tapes. Happy to say none of the kids has anything to do with TWI, or wants to. My son who joined the Navy is in fact very much anti-TWI and recognizes the evil that they perpetrated.
I have been very sucessful at my job, since I have now been giving it due attention, rather than putting going to meetings first.
I've made many friends, some of whom are committed Christians of various denominations, some agnostics, a couple of atheists, a few Muslims, and one pagan. I feel richer by knowing them all.
Yeah, I'm still an agnostic and enjoy the debates in the doctrinal section, but am keeping my mind open to seeing God at work.
Life is good. I'm happy.
I'm not in a cult anymore
See Ya at The Roast
Oakspear
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 02, 2003 at 14:24.]
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 05, 2003 at 0:03.]
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laleo
Oakspear,
I enjoyed your story the first time around, and even more re-reading it. I think you speak for many of us, with your adolescent longings and doubts that first were allowed expression in The Way, then stifled. I'm glad you've found peace. You deserve all the happiness that comes your way.
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Flay Minion
Thank you. You know I feel a definite affinity for you and what you've pulled yourself out of. It's great to see that life can go on and it can be good.
If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it
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Hope R.
I just read this whole thread again... Thanks, Tom - I'm so glad you are doing so well. Amazing, isn't it, how sanely we think without the scales of TWI covering our eyes?
Wish I could meet you at the "weenie roast".
:)-->
Hope R. color>size>face>
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Dot Matrix
I read your story and I do not know which part affected me most. The Wow story with the town throwing ROCKS at you!
Your highlander leader more interested in hurting people than helping them.... The fact that they MA'd you and your marraige fell apart...
WOW! Just WOW!
Thank you for sharing. I have enjoyed your posts but now have a greater understanding of your personal story. Reading it I felt like I was right there with you.
I am thankful you are happy. I am thankful you survived. I am so glad you come here to hang out. Bless you!
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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Oakspear
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bliss
Holy cow, Oak, this is hilarious. At the time were you discouraged?Scared? This would have freaked me out if I was there on the WOW field, but now reading about this, can't stop laughing.
Sorry you had to go through all that. They (TWI) suck.
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Oakspear
When we noticed it, my WOW bro' and I crawled outside and hid in the bushes and watched people go by 2 by 2. After awhile he told me "wait here", got up and joined the parade! Since they were spread pretty far apart, he was not noticed until he marched back into the church with them, sat in a pew and held hands with the church goers on either side. If I remember correctly he slipped out quietly after being recognized :o
On one hand we were discouraged that we were not seeing any "fruit" during this part of our WOW year, but some of us started to develop a "martyr complex", where we figured that the devil must be mad because of the truth that we were speaking, which was why we were getting this flack.
Most of the time I thought it was pretty funny, like when church members would approach us in public (sometimes where we worked) and say in a loud voice "I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!; but there were a few dangerous incidents, like rock throwing, almost getting run down by cars, and a few close calls with guys who seriously wanted to kick my foot!
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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Belle
Can't wait!!!
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gc
I'm lookign forward to it too!
gc
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T-Bone
Thanks for sharing your story, Oakspear. I admire your bravery in checking out TWI’s doctrines and in speaking up about it – I was such a wimp while I was in it – couldn’t imagine myself doing something like that! Besides I was so bedazzled by VPW’s presentation [as you put it] I didn’t even notice any inconsistencies [TWI fed and brain dead!] – which reminds me of another thing I liked throughout your story – revealing your process of analytical thinking...Also enjoyed listening to what you had to say on a couple of those Grease Spot Radio episodes.
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